McCain Campaign Protests YouTube's DMCA Policy

Colz Grigor writes "It appears that CBS and Fox have submitted DMCA takedown notices to YouTube for videos from the McCain campaign. The campaign is now complaining about YouTube's DMCA policy making it too easy for copyright holders to remove fair-use videos. I hope they pursue this by addressing flaws in the DMCA."

Comments

We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[eldavojohn]

Is it wrong for me to hope that the same thing happens to Obama so that when either of them win, they remember the idiocy that is the DMCA and reform it?

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[bigstrat2003]

Is it wrong for me to hope that the same thing happens to Obama so that when either of them win...

No, it isn't.

they remember the idiocy that is the DMCA and reform it?

It is naive of you to hope for this part, though. Good luck with that.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Tx]

The sad thing is they won't. Here they have clear and direct personal experience of the DMCA as currently implemented preventing legitimate content from being posted. You'd think that would do it. But they're* pleading special case for politicians, rather than calling for reform of the DMCA as a whole. And if they're taking that stance now, while the issue is hot and they might win a few votes for challenging an unpopular law, there's little chance of them turning around and calling for reform later.

*I say they, I'll pretty much bet the Obama camp takes a similar stance to the McCain camp, I guess we'll see.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[neoform]

If anything happens, they'll just see to it that the DMCA doesn't apply to political ads.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[cduffy]

It's completely different provisions that make the DMCA unpopular.

Shielding service providers as long as they promptly process takedowns and put content back up on counter-notices is a Good Thing; without it YouTube wouldn't exist. Moreover, the DMCA provides for legal penalties if misused -- if a supposed copyright holder has something taken back down after the person who posted it gave a counter-notice, they're on the hook if such was done wrongly.

The McCain campaign is presumably whining about the process because the information they're trying to promulgate is time-sensitive (only relevant up to the election) and they don't want the downtime it takes to provide counter-notices -- but once they do provide counter-notices, CBS/NBC/whoever won't be able to have it taken back down without risking their own necks. It's a good process, though, and I don't see any reason to fill it with loopholes.

The parts of the DMCA that make it illegal to circumvent the dongle check in the 15-year-old piece of accounting software my consulting client's small business uses (company long out of business, dongle recently broken) are complete BS, but the takedown and counter-notice process is reasonable.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Atzanteol]

Gawd I wish you weren't right... :-(

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Elemenope]

CBS and FOX won't do it to Obama because they *like* Obama. They don't mind if Obama uses their videos to help him win the election.

Yeah, FOX *loves* Obama.

What, are you stoned?

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[devman]

CBS and FOX won't do it to Obama because they *like* Obama.

You and I apparently don't watch the same FOX.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[IndustrialComplex]

*I say they, I'll pretty much bet the Obama camp takes a similar stance to the McCain camp, I guess we'll see.

Well, one way to hold Obama's feet to the fire is to say that you will vote for McCain if Obama doesn't say that he will reform the DCMA.

Here is the thing, if this issue really is that important to you, then you must be willing to make sacrifices (Voting for McCain if you were planning to vote Obama, or the reverse). They need to know that their position, or lack thereof is worse than people not voting for them, they are actively voting against them. It is a bitter pill to swallow, for them and us. Who will blink first?

This holds true for whatever candidate you support. Threaten to withdraw that support, and mean it, if there are issues you need addressed. The other candidate may not be what you prefer, but you can be damned sure that all promises made to special interests will be forgotten if keeping them means costing them the actual election. If there is one thing that politicians like more than lobbyist money, it is winning the election in the first place.

If IP/copyright reform is as important to Slashdotters as we claim, then you HAVE to take positions like this to force it to be a real issue. Again, a bitter pill, and not for everyone, but you have to ask yourself, how important is copyright reform to me?

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[MyLongNickName]

* (The real blame lies with the 1990s president who repealed the Glass-Steagall of 1933 which allowed banks to invest in risky stocks, and thereby created the current crisis. But the media is being hush-hush about that. Don't want to risk losing the Obama election.)

Continue to believe what you want to believe. But the repeal of this act had nothing to do with the current crash. The majority of this can be put onto bad lending practices and the bundling and selling of these loans. The repeal of the GS Act of 1933 did not allow for 125% LTV loans to folks who did not substantiate their income. It did not cause banks to ignore credit risk. That was just greed. And the fact is that the Fair Credit Act specifically required that banks take into account borrowers' ability to repay when making loans. Had existing regulation been enforced, none of this crap would have come to pass.

I am a fiscal conservative, and hate to see government regulation when it isn't necessary. What I see coming to pass is a lot more feel good legislation, and lax enforcement. We have the proper level of regulation in place right now, but when it is not enforced, it is worthless.

But, hey, good job trying to pass the buck. Of course, prefacing it with "FOX luvs the Democrats!!!111!" kinda outs you right off the bat.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Danse]

CBS and FOX won't do it to Obama because they *like* Obama. They don't mind if Obama uses their videos to help him win the election.

>>>I hope they pursue this by addressing flaws in the DMCA.

Do you actually know that Obama's campaign hasn't had takedowns used against them, or are you assuming?

** (The real blame lies with the 1990s president who repealed the Glass-Steagall of 1933 which allowed banks to invest in risky stocks, and thereby created the current crisis. But the media is being hush-hush about that. Don't want to risk losing the Obama election.)

Sure. I'm sure that a single piece of legislation caused the whole thing. I notice that you conveniently forget that the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act was sponsored by republicans (Phil Gramm strikes again), and passed the senate on a party-line vote with only one democrat crossing over. But sure, you go right ahead and believe that the Republicans are in no way responsible for our situation.

I notice also that you neglect to take any notice of other things that contributed quite a bit to our situation, such as the Commodity and Futures Modernization Act of 2000 (more of Phil Gramm's handiwork). This was also a republican bill, but it was supported by a few dems as well. You might want to look into how this relates to the AIG situation and how that affected the banks.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

he repeal of the GS Act of 1933 did not allow for 125% LTV loans to folks who did not substantiate their income. It did not cause banks to ignore credit risk.

You're forgetting a key point - banks would not have made those loans if they couldn't sell them off to investment houses. If there was no market for those loans, they would not have made them because the risk was too high.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Alsee]

they'll just see to it that the DMCA doesn't apply to political ads.

McCain looks and acts like a 300 year old vampire. Obama is gonna give him an ass kicking Blade style!

AdObama4Pres-Blade1.torrent 619.43 MB

----------------------

McCain is 72 years young, and as strong and healthy as when he was 20!

AdMcCainYoungAndVigorous-Cocoon.torrent 601.45 MB

-

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Rogerborg]

Is it wrong for me to hope that the same thing happens to Obama so that when either of them win, they remember the idiocy that is the DMCA and reform it?

Obama was 8* when the DMCA was passed. McCain voted for it. I know which one I'd rather see burned by it now.

* Some rounding is involved here.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[pmbasehore]

OK, at the risk of sounding reasonable (and losing karma) I think we need to put the blame where blame is due.

As a conservative, I generally vote Republican. However, I am mature enough to recognize that many of the elected officials in the Republican party have directly or indirectly caused the current economic situation. I am also knowledgeable enough to recognize that the elected officials in the Democratic party are equally to blame.

The blame lies with Republicans, Democrats, the Legislative branch, and the Executive branch. (I don't have enough information to blame the Judicial branch for anything.) ALL are equally guilty, and BOTH parties make equally valid statements about the other's responsibility.

Yes, Clinton's fiscal decisions (Glass-Steagall act repealed, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, others) had their hand in creating this downturn. Yes, Republican legislation (Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act) and partisanship also had their hand in creating this downturn.

Skip the partisanship. Give the blame where it is due--not with the party that differs with your own viewpoint (whichever party that may be), but the elected officials sitting in the Senate, the House, and Pennsylvania Avenue.

Let's be a little more reasonable here, OK?

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[electrictroy]

>>>Republicans who had control of both the White House and Congress from 2001-2006 is appalling. If they saw something wrong, they had a free hand

THE DEMOCRATS had control of Congress from 2007-8. If they saw something wrong, they had a free hand to correct it. (For that matter, Democratic president Clinton could have vetoed the bill in 1999, and thereby kept Glass-Steagall in full force.)

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Anonymous Coward]

Fox != FoxNews
Fox is far more liberal than FoxNews (I don't care if they _do_ share a parent company...)

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Rogerborg]

FOX won't do it to Obama because they *like* Obama.

You are Karl Rove, and I claim my £5.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Anonymous Coward]

FOX is less socialist than NBC, CBS, ABC, et cetera, but they are still socialist.

Best. Joke. Ever.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Danse]

If you look at the Wikipedia page you linked to for the Gramm Act, it even says that it passed 90-8 in the senate, and 362-67 in the house. Not exactly a 'party line vote'.

A little of your own revisionist history?

True. I should have said that as well. I was referring to the initial version, before they added the sweetener for democrats of strengthening the CRA (which I also consider to be misguided legislation).

I'm not trying to lay all the blame on republicans. I was just trying to explain to the gp poster that he was misguided in trying to lay it all on the dems.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Anonymous Coward]

(For that matter, Democratic president Clinton could have vetoed the bill in 1999, and thereby kept Glass-Steagall in full force.)

Look it up: any bill passed by more than two thirds is veto-proof.

I do blame the Republicans as well as the Democrats in congress for passing the bill, but we have bank lobbyists to thank for that!

In case you are forgetting, the senate currently has 51 democratic senators, not nearly enough to override Bush's inevitable veto.

Next time you contribute, please at least try to educate yourself on the basic principles of our government.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[iminplaya]

Yes, and who can we blame for the fact that most of them still sit in the senate, the house, and Pennsylvania Avenue?

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Danse]

Skip the partisanship. Give the blame where it is due--not with the party that differs with your own viewpoint (whichever party that may be), but the elected officials sitting in the Senate, the House, and Pennsylvania Avenue.

Let's be a little more reasonable here, OK?

That was really my point. The gp poster was trying to tie all of our problems around the necks of the dems, so I pointed out that the republicans had a hand in it as well. Both sides have caved to the financial industry in a lot of ways and let them run wild. Trying to point at one or the other is oversimplifying in the extreme.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[zenyu]

It's completely different provisions that make the DMCA unpopular.

The take down process and it's liability shield is probably the only half way decent part of an extremely flawed bill. But that does not mean that it is a "Good Thing", I've had my internet and phone service interrupted because of the "take it down and ask questions later" culture it has spawned at ISPs. In my case it was due to a bogus DMCA complaint from EMI on an IP address in a block that had been allocated to me, but hadn't even been placed into service yet. Maybe I could have sued for loss of business, but just starting that suit would have cost more than six days of lost business with very dubious chances of success.

In the eight years since the day the phones went dead I haven't had any more full interruptions, but enough close calls -- literally, the ISPs that I've paid a bit of a premium for since call me before breaking the link (and Verizon is long gone from the picture) -- that I really have no love for any of the DMCA. That someone who voted for the bill might lose his presidential bid in part due to it fills me the glee! That his proposed solution to YouTube is a special exemption for himself is funny and sad at the same time.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Anonymous Coward]

Socialised healthcare? MADNESS, and it'll never work anyways. Name at least one first world country that has public health care!

Oh, wait... All of them, sans the US.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[megamerican]

Glass-Steagal has everything to do with the current crisis. Without its repeal there wouldn't be a quadrillion in derivatives (of course no one knows the real value of that). That is the big black hole that is causing this entire mess. It is why gold and other commodities were going down even though the FED was pumping in 100's of billions of dollars. People were liquidating their paper assets of gold because they had no physical gold to cover their positions.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/wallstreet/weill/demise.html

In 1933, Senator Carter Glass (D-Va.) and Congressman Henry Steagall (D-Ala.) introduce the historic legislation that bears their name, seeking to limit the conflicts of interest created when commercial banks are permitted to underwrite stocks or bonds. In the early part of the century, individual investors were seriously hurt by banks whose overriding interest was promoting stocks of interest and benefit to the banks, rather than to individual investors. The new law bans commercial banks from underwriting securities, forcing banks to choose between being a simple lender or an underwriter (brokerage).

After 12 attempts in 25 years, Congress finally repeals Glass-Steagall, rewarding financial companies for more than 20 years and $300 million worth of lobbying efforts. Supporters hail the change as the long-overdue demise of a Depression-era relic.

On Oct. 21, with the House-Senate conference committee deadlocked after marathon negotiations, the main sticking point is partisan bickering over the bill's effect on the Community Reinvestment Act, which sets rules for lending to poor communities. Sandy Weill calls President Clinton in the evening to try to break the deadlock after Senator Phil Gramm, chairman of the Banking Committee, warned Citigroup lobbyist Roger Levy that Weill has to get White House moving on the bill or he would shut down the House-Senate conference. Serious negotiations resume, and a deal is announced at 2:45 a.m. on Oct. 22. Whether Weill made any difference in precipitating a deal is unclear.

On Oct. 22, Weill and John Reed issue a statement congratulating Congress and President Clinton, including 19 administration officials and lawmakers by name. The House and Senate approve a final version of the bill on Nov. 4, and Clinton signs it into law later that month.

Just days after the administration (including the Treasury Department) agrees to support the repeal, Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin, the former co-chairman of a major Wall Street investment bank, Goldman Sachs, raises eyebrows by accepting a top job at Citigroup as Weill's chief lieutenant. The previous year, Weill had called Secretary Rubin to give him advance notice of the upcoming merger announcement. When Weill told Rubin he had some important news, the secretary reportedly quipped, "You're buying the government?"

I suggest reading the whole history on the link I provided. You can't blame just one party for it. Had the Republicans been completely against it it would have never passed. Had Clinton vetoed it, it wouldn't have been overridden. Alan Greenspan is also to blame.

In December 1996, with the support of Chairman Alan Greenspan, the Federal Reserve Board issues a precedent-shattering decision permitting bank holding companies to own investment bank affiliates with up to 25 percent of their business in securities underwriting (up from 10 percent).

This expansion of the loophole created by the Fed's 1987 reinterpretation of Section 20 of Glass-Steagall effectively renders Glass-Steagall obsolete. Virtually any bank holding company wanting to engage in securities business would be able to stay under the 25 percent limit on revenue. However, the law remains on the books, and along with the Bank Hol

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Ralph Spoilsport]

FOX is less socialist than NBC, CBS, ABC, et cetera, but they are still socialist. BWAHAHAHAAAA!!!! You're a troll. But a funny troll. Assuming you're not a troll, and you actually believe that, here's a clue: They Are All Giant Corporations. PRIVATE Corporations. Run for PROFIT and in the interest of their Owner (in the case of Fox) or the shareholders of the Conglomerates that own them (the rest).

They are NOT Socialist. If they were SOCIALIST they would be run by and for the workers on a non-profit basis.

Oh - and by the way - re: Healthcare - the only major (G7 or G8) industrialised nation that DOESN'T have national health is the USA, and all the health statistics for the USA are behind everyone else except a few stats where Russia and China are behind.

So, assuming you're a troll - thanks - that was really funny. Fox... Socialist.

BWAHAHAAaaaa!!! Who'd-a-thunk-it? Awesome. What an idiot.

RS

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it hasn't worked anywhere. Here's how it doesn't work in the U.K.. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/health/3188745/NHS-trust-spends-12000-treating-staff-privately.html

Maybe you like waiting in line for health care. I don't.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Misch]

That's incorrect. The act in the Senate was passed on a basically straight party line vote. See 106th Congress, Senate Roll Call Vote 105 54-44. 53 Republicans voted for the bill, 1 Deomcrat. 44 Democrats voted against the bill.

You're looking at the Senate accepting the conference report, which was the 90-8 vote. (106th Congress, Senate Roll Call Vote 354).

My search-fu is sort of weak, but the last time I could find that the Senate outright rejected a Conference Report (filibusters excluded) was in 1918.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Shakrai]

Maybe you like waiting in line for health care. I don't.

Mind telling me where in the United States you can get health care without waiting in line? In my town a 10am appointment means sitting in the waiting room until at least 11am.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[dachshund]

Skip the partisanship. Give the blame where it is due--not with the party that differs with your own viewpoint (whichever party that may be), but the elected officials sitting in the Senate, the House, and Pennsylvania Avenue. Let's be a little more reasonable here, OK?

Unfortunately, our electoral system does not have a "throw the bums out and replace them with good, solid human beings" lever. So, with due respect, your analysis doesn't actually help us do anything about the situation.

Sure, let's say all politicians are to blame. What then? I mean, we can vote against the incumbent in every election, but mostly that just means some other party-supported figure gets in, and that's that. We could try to vote third party (where there are even serious candidates) but it's mostly a losing proposition. This country has a winner-take-all approach to running elections that fundamentally makes it difficult to elect parties outside of the big two.

You're not going to get a perfect outcome no matter what you do, so here are the practical measures I'm taking:

1. I think deregulation has a lot to do with the financial meltdown, so I'm voting for the candidates (and parties) that seem most likely to bring back sane regulation. I'm not expecting perfection (unfortunately), but I'm going to be as pragmatic as I can.

2. Within the national party that I choose, I'm going to contribute to and vote for candidates that even further support that approach.

3. I'm going to strongly work for campaign finance reform laws, because I think that a lot of the compromises we've seen in Washington have been transparent sellouts for campaign contribution.

4. I'm going to try to identify /which/ party really stands behind each piece of bad legislation (i.e., if all members from party A voted for it, and 10% of party B did, then I'm going to identify party B as the one I'm most likely to be able to influence and I'm going to support certain candidates within that party).

I don't think these are going to be perfect, but if enough people take action, I believe we'll make things substantially better. Unfortunately, complaining about "all the bums" in DC is just a great way to make sure they get to keep doing what they're doing.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Tanktalus]

* (The real blame lies with the 1990s president who repealed the Glass-Steagall of 1933 which allowed banks to invest in risky stocks, and thereby created the current crisis. But the media is being hush-hush about that. Don't want to risk losing the Obama election.)

Odd, I'd blame the banks for their crisis by investing stupidly. I guess it's like a kid who just turned legal, going out, getting entirely plastered, driving home, and hitting nearly everyone they see on their way. Except that here mommy and daddy have to pay about $700B for bailing them out.

Mind you, I'm on the House and Senate Republicans' side on this one. They took the risk, they should pay for it. If they don't, and see that mommy and daddy will always bail them out, will they ever learn?

Maybe the US needs a constitutional amendment to make these bailouts illegal. Then maybe corporations will learn to take reasonable risks - ones that, if they should fail, won't put them under. And then pass a law requiring that 95% of board members' pay (and that should include all chief officers) are in the form of stock and stock options: 10% stock, 90% stock options (none of which can vest in less than 5 years). Then they'll take the long-term view of their corporations.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[flyingbuttressman]

I'm so glad that I can *choose* which health-care provider to go to, which means that I have a choice between *0* different health-care programs that I can afford.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Shakrai]

O's actions dictate he is a very, very liberal democrat

Which actions would those be? His reversal on FISA or his endorsement of the Paulson rescue plan that was largely opposed by the Congressional Progressive Caucus? I don't think Obama is nearly as liberal as you seem to think. He has liberal leanings but his actual decisions seem to be grounded in pragmatism more than anything else.

McCain as pres, Dem congress, likely nothing interesting happens in four years

Do you think we can afford four more years of doing nothing on energy policy, education or health care? Ignoring the first two is going to put us at a serious disadvantage in the 21st century global economy. You could also tie them into national security -- a weak economic power is a weak military power. Ignoring the last one is also an economic issue -- our companies aren't as competitive as many foreign companies because of the costs of health care.

Obama pres, Dem congress with Republicans potantially with no filibuster, you get shafted in every way (judge appointments, pet Dem projects, taxes - because someone has to pay for all their programs, etc.

As opposed to being shafted by the first six years of the GWB administration and the rubber-stamp Republican Congress?

And yes, I can see Dems blocking bank regulations which would restrict Fannie and/or Freddie when they are in bed - in the 90's sometimes literally - with them

Fannie and Freddie are only part of the problem. The unregulated $65,000,000,000 (yes, trillion) market for credit default swaps deserves some mention.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[gitarman]

* (The real blame lies with the 1990s president who repealed the Glass-Steagall of 1933 which allowed banks to invest in risky stocks, and thereby created the current crisis. But the media is being hush-hush about that. Don't want to risk losing the Obama election.)

I find it interesting that the president takes the "blame" for a legislation that 8 of 535 representatives passed. does anyone think that a veto would work in this case? It sounds to me that a great many of our representatives (and society in general) drank the reganesque policies of trickle-down and voodoo economics, possibly because the economy looked so good at the time, possibly for other reasons as well.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[electrictroy]

If certain persons (cough democrats) can give praise to Clinton "Because he created the wonderful economy of the 1990s"
then I certainly think it's fair to blame Clinton when he repeals Glass-Steagall.

Turn on CSPAN. What do you hear? "Bush is at fault... Bush did this wrong... Bush's policies made the stock market fail," and on and on and on. I'm just playing the game that the Congress people are playing. If they can lay all the blame/praise on a single president, then I can COPY the "esteemed representatives" and do the same thing.

It seems fair to emulate what I see inside the Congress.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[sumdumass]

Lol.. Waiting one hour is no where near the same as waiting 5 or 6 hours or the dreaded waits of days and years that cause people to shop other countries for health care that they can get for free in their own countries. India has a pretty thriving medical tourism industry specifically because of flaws and waits in other countries. You don't seriously think someone would jump a flight to india to see the doctor one hour sooner do you?

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[ari_j]

It's a matter of degree. In Canada, the average waiting time for a necessary surgery is 18 weeks. Having your appointment happen an hour late isn't even close.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[spun]

Haha, nice one. You really don't understand what 'socialist' means, do you? What form of government is the collusion of large business and government, with nationalist and religious sentiments? Fascism, not socialism.

Second, you are terribly confused. Corporations are run by graduates of ivy league schools, who come from wealthy families and are not at all liberal.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[geminidomino]

*wipes eyes* 10/10 for style (minus several million for good sense). Masterfully done. Not even any typos.

Remember, my vacuous trolling friend, the opposite of "intellectual elite" is "ignorant peasant."

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[mweather]

And what's the waiting time for that same surgery in the US if you have no money to pay for it?

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[aproposofwhat]

Bollocks.

The linked article is about a NHS trust using its money wisely by ensuring that staff with musculo-skeletal injuries are able to return to work sooner than they otherwise would.

12 grand over a year to save many more thousands in locum nurse costs is a sensible use of resources.

There are many things wrong with the NHS (poor and over-heavy management, government mandated targets causing patient care to suffer, poor management of IT programmes, etc.), but it is still free at the point of use, even if it is frustrating to have to wait to see a specialist.

Speaking as someone with a disabled partner and a severely disabled stepson, I'm grateful that the system exists at all, despite all its faults.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, the US system is so much better where 15% of the population has no insurance at all,
and those that do have it are frequently trapped by it.

How many more entrapenures would we have if people were not tied to their insurance policy?
How many small businesses would be competative if access to insurance was a level playing field.

(Oh, and my last medical proceedure took a month and a half, four appointments, and a hundred dollars in co-pays to get a shot of cortesone that was obvious to everyone concerned was needed from the start... and national health will be worse? spare me.)

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Shakrai]

It's a matter of degree. In Canada, the average waiting time for a necessary surgery is 18 weeks [www.cbc.ca].

And how is that relevant to Obama's health care plan? He hasn't purposed a single-payer Gov't sponsored system.

Having your appointment happen an hour late isn't even close.

No, it's not, but the point is that health care in this country is already broken. Pointing to other countries where it's broken more doesn't justify leaving our existing system in place.

We don't have enough primary care doctors because they don't make as much money as specialists yet have the same costs of doing business (malpractice insurance being the big one). Ditto for OB/GYNs. Our insurance system sucks -- what's the point of having insurance if you wind up paying out more money than you can afford in deductibles and co-payments? Isn't insurance supposed to protect you from financial disaster? What's the point of having insurance if you have to argue with them on your death bed to get them to pay the bills? Why can my car insurance company offer a simple deductible after which all damage is fully covered but no health insurance provider can?

Our pharmaceutical industry sucks -- why can they profitably sell drugs in Canada at cheaper prices than they can in the United States? Why do they get away with making minor reformulations of their product (typically an "extended release" version) to extend/get new patents and shut out generics? Why do they spend more on marketing than they do on research? Shouldn't life-saving drugs sell themselves?

We need solutions from both sides of the aisle to fix this problem. The insurance and pharmaceutical companies need to be reined in and regulated better (typically a democratic solution). Scum-sucking ambulance chasers need to be reined in (typically a republican solution). Punitive damages shouldn't be allowed unless the health care provider was grossly negligent -- if he/she wasn't than you shouldn't be able to collect more than your actual damages.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[flyingbuttressman]

I agree with you on principle, but the problem lies with low wages and the habit of companies like Wal-Mart of keeping their employees part-time, un-unionized, and reliant on government assistance. If you want to take the steps to increase the minimum wage to a decent living wage and improve workers' rights then I'm 100% behind you. As far as health care goes, the first thing we need to do is end discrimination based on pre-existing conditions and genetic risk. I don't think socialism is perfect, but it would improve the standard of living across the board.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[d3ac0n]

Skip the partisanship. Give the blame where it is due--not with the party that differs with your own viewpoint (whichever party that may be), but the elected officials sitting in the Senate, the House, and Pennsylvania Avenue.

I wish it was that easy.

While I will agree, there is more than enough blame to go around, we must also look at this from a factual standpoint. Yes, Republicans are partly to blame. However, the blame that rests with Republicans is largely one of inaction. IE: they sat there like a bunch of facking idiots with their thumbs up their asses. Let me tell you NOBODY is more pissed off about that than I. Fortunately, many of those inactive RINO's (for those wondering, RINO = Republican In Name Only. Leftist GOP members.) got booted out of office in 2006. Interestingly, Many of the RINO's were replaced with "Blue Dog" Democrats (Rightist Dems).

For the Democrats from that era though, the problem is more serious. Many of them, including Chris Dodd and Barney Frank, were ACTIVELY blocking ANY reform of the banking system. There are ethical issues as well, as it turns out Barney Frank was actually DATING the head of Fannie and Freddie during that time. Chris Dodd, the head of the House Banking committee, received more money than anyone other than Barack Obama from Fannie and Freddie. Unlike the Republicans, the Democrats have DEEP ethical and corruption problems surrounding the financial meltdown. This is NOT a partisan issue, but an Ethics and Legal one. That transcends party loyalties. Or, at least, it SHOULD.

Unfortunately, it appears that, rather than honestly accept responsibility for their active blocking of needed reform, many of the Democrats are playing the CYA game, and trying to shift responsibility to the Republicans. Not only is this disingenuous, it belies the factual history of the meltdown. This is what gets so many Conservatives up in arms. Yes, Republicans should have done more, but the Democrats were the ones actually BLOCKING a fix. A fix proposed and supported by none other than John McCain.

This is why I'm voting for McCain. He saw this problem coming, and tried to stop it. Prescience is a quality we need in a President.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Falstius]

No, buy many Americans jump on a plane to India because they can't afford to get their treatment in the US. It is common to have to wait months to see a specialist in the US. The difference is, when you do get to see them it can bankrupt you (even if you thought you had insurance).

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[MrMunkey]

The problem here is with emergency situations. Any normal person would be freaked out, and the last thing on their mind would be money. Now with worrying about living they have to deal with the insurance company stating that some procedure won't be covered, but they're being told that this procedure is the best chance they have. Why should anyone have to make their case to live?

I used to be against a socialized medical system, but over the years I have come to realize that health care should be a right, and not a privilege.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[mdwh2]

Well I have cable, Internet access, cell phone, and two computers bought in the last two years. And I can get public healthcare whenever I want.

You could afford it too if you had SAVED your money, instead of demanding your neighbors' pay the bill for you (tax their paychecks & give the money to you).

What country do you live in where you get to have tax paid for you by your neighbour? I pay taxes too.

There are arguments for public healthcare that are nothing to do with whether we should have welfare for the poor:

* Everyone benefits from a healthy society, such as stopping contagious diseases, and having a healthy workforce.

* Private companies tend to discriminate, making it unfair to anyone with any pre-existing conditions for example. I'm happy to pay for costs myself (whether towards a policy, or taxation), but I'd rather not gamble my health with the private insurance companies, thanks.

The US has state schools does it not? Surely we should privatise schools instead of having this "socialist" schooling system? And what about the military, what's this nonsense about Government funded defence? Anyone who suggests otherwise has a "gimme gimme gimme" attitude, and they want to "raid their neighbors' wallets", right?

You see, even if the US, there are lots of things where things are funded by the Government, and it is sensible to do so. My views lean towards right-wing pro-capitalist, but this doesn't mean that we have to have an entirely 100% laissez-faire capitalist society. I find this attitude that any kind of regulation amounts to "socialism" rather odd, especially since the US clearly isn't anywhere near a 100% laissez-faire capitalist society, anyway.

(I'm also curious how you manage to save 1/2 a million in just five years just by not having cable etc?)

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[nedwidek]

I agree with you in spirit. Too bad that idea ends up taking the economy completely out. Hey, we'll be eating dog food on the streets, but we showed them they needed to take responsibility for their actions. What we have here is a lose-lose-lose situation.

Still bad mortgages should never have been allowed to be rolled up into hedged funds and then given a AAA rating. Amazing how the private industry that does so well at regulating itself and making sure bad things don't happen missed that one. Then again the government actively voted against regulating such things so they're not a better choice. Unfortunately people are just plain stupid and greedy.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Shakrai]

Before you say this doesn't work, there are lots of us who do exactly what I just described.

There are lots more of us who don't have tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars lying around.

Your idea would also work with car insurance as well -- it'd be much easier to just pay for that totaled car out of pocket rather than fight with an insurance company -- but isn't the whole point of insurance to avoid financial disaster?

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[electrictroy]

>>>What form of government is the collusion of large business and government, with nationalist and religious sentiments?

Or "Democrat" for ease of pronunciation. Democrats, just like Republicans, get billions in corporate donations every year. You think they are not colluding? You think NBC, ABC, and other television corporations are not just drooling to see Obama win this year?

They know he's going to be giving them more money. $500 per new job created in fact. Plus another bailout.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[ari_j]

Not to get side-tracked, but first off do you know of a jurisdiction within the United States that allows punitive damages for regular negligence? I am not aware of one, but I haven't exactly looked into all of them.

You do ask a lot of good questions. Do you know of a place in the world that has answered these questions? Do you know what Obama has actually proposed? It mostly consists of tax credits and requiring insurance companies to do things like cover preexisting conditions.

Do you know what that actually means? It means that, not only does the government increase taxes on the wealthy to pay for private health insurance for the poor, but the insurance companies can and will increase their rates for all people because of the increased risk they are bearing. The alternative to that result is that insurance is no longer a profitable business and companies will get out of it.

As to doctors not making enough in the primary care market, I know a lot of them who do just fine. As a matter of fact, quite a few have immigrated from Canada, where the government decides how much doctors should be paid and where that number is simply not high enough to motivate a good doctor to stay.

The health care system is not perfect. It could be improved. Forcing private businesses to engage in unprofitable activity and forcing both types of premium increases on wealthier taxpayers is indistinguishable from socialism and nobody has stood up with any convincing evidence that it will work in the long term.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Mr. Slippery]

Plus corporations benefit from a strong, central, socialist government

For-profit corporations owned by capitalist stockholders can benefit from a strong, central government that works on behalf of capitalists. That's what we've had at least since the 1950s rise of the "military industrial complex".

They would not benefit from a socialist government.

The problem here is that you - like many Americans - are operating under an incorrect definition of socialism. Since the Red Scares of the early 1900s, it's been just about impossible to have a reasonable discussion of socialism in the U.S., until it's reached the point that a large number of people think socialism, communism, and Stalinism are the same thing, and that the only possible alternative to being fucked over by capitalist robber-barons is to be fucked over by a Stalinist state.

Socialism is orthogonal to the size and strength of government. Socialism means an economic system based on the exchange of labor and the democratic control of capital by those who do the work. It contrasts with capitalism, an economic system based on the control of capital by a state-backed minority class of "owners".

Both can be found in free-market and in command economy forms, and both can co-exist with authoritarian or with libertarian policies on social issues. For examples of free-market socialism, consult your local libertarian socialist, a.k.a. anarchist; for command economy capitalism, review the U.S. during WWII.

If control of capital is concentrated into the hands of a few, you've got capitalism; if it's spread out democratically, you've got socialism. Slapping a few regulations on a capitalist system does not make it socialist, any more than installing a speed governor on a northbound train makes it head south.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[the_arrow]

Today, the majority of people who claim they can't afford health care actually could if they were more reasonable about their spending choices in other areas.

Yes, like spending less on food maybe? There are lot of people who can barely afford to feed themselves or their children, maybe you have any ideas on how they should handle their economy to afford good health care?

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you think we can afford four more years of doing nothing on energy policy, education or health care?

I fucking hate Bush, but statements like this are the reason we end up with crappy presidents like him.

We haven't had inaction on energy policy. We've had destructive action instead. Bush has agreed to subsidize all sorts of crazy energy stuff. He had even sent the military to the Persian Gulf region, so that we can protect the oil companies operations at taxpayer expense. If we ended the subsidies and left energy prices to the free market, we might not be burning oil any more. The last thing you should be asking for, is a president to "do something." Presidents doing things is what causes problems.

And as for education and healthcare, if you don't think you can afford more inaction, then write your state legislature and governor. WTF does any of that have to do with presidents? If you ask a president to deal with this shit, then you're just going to end up sending more tax money to Washington and hoping that your state meets are the bizarre and arbitrary requirements for getting a portion of it back. Telling presidents to fix education is the most anti-education thing you can possibly do, unless you tell them to fix it by butting out. Send your money to your state capitol or better yet, your city government, and your chances of it being spent on education, and being spent in a sane manner, are maximized.

Think about who represents you. Who can you realistically fire? The president answers to 300M citizens. How many citizens does your state district House member represent? About 28000 in my case. It's pretty clear who should have the power to "do something."

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Celarnor]

I have fibromyalgia. This requires me to take 300mg of preglabin a day. There is no generic. A five day supply, if I didn't have insurance, would cost me a little over $200. That's $1200 a month. I'm a college student, I certainly can't find that kind of money.

Earlier this month, I had a kidneystone; three ER visits before it got under control. ($4,151 each, according to the bill): $12,453 The surgery was $7,162. The surgery to remove the stent they had put in was $6,812.

So, this month, healthcare has cost me $27,627. I can barely afford my deductible; you really think people can pay that kind of cash out of pocket?

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[DM9290]

It's a matter of degree. In Canada, the average waiting time for a necessary surgery is 18 weeks. Having your appointment happen an hour late isn't even close.

the Fraiser Institute is a right wing think tank and is masterful at twisting statistics to seem to mean something they don't actually mean. they have a long history of railing against the government providing services to taxpayers on a non-profit basis.

if we bothered to get their raw data, the flaw in their analysis would no doubt reveal itself.

And where does the article say "necessary"?

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Shakrai]

And whose fault is that? Maybe you should stop wasting money on $1000 a year Cable TV, or $900 a year Internet access, or $700 a year cellphone connections, or buying a new $2000 laptop every other year. ----- Maybe then you could afford the healthcare. Let me introduce you to new words: "self-sacrifice" "self-help" and "self-responsibility/initiative".

Oh, blow it out your fucking ass with the self-responsibility bullshit. I don't waste money on any of those things that you mentioned and I have a pretty decent chunk of change tucked away (six months of my income). In spite of all of that I still couldn't afford a major medical diagnosis without insurance. It would bankrupt me.

Ever known anyone that got cancer? Those bills run into the hundreds of thousands. Mind telling me how someone who is making middle class wages can afford to take a hit like that?

Funny you mention this example, because that's EXACTLY what I do. In the event of an accident, buying a used car for $3000-$5000 makes a whole lot more sense than paying ~$15,000 per decade to the insurance rapists. I have the state-required minimum, but I do not insure my car. It's cheaper to just junk it, and buy a used one.

Well kudos to you for being financially responsible. Next time my wife gets sick I'll tell her it's cheaper to just junk her and find a new one.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Volante3192]

THE DEMOCRATS had control of Congress from 2007-8. If they saw something wrong, they had a free hand to correct it.

Wow, you make it sound like a 51-49 Senate with an executive of the opposite party constitutes a nationwide mandate.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Shakrai]

So, this month, healthcare has cost me $27,627. I can barely afford my deductible; you really think people can pay that kind of cash out of pocket?

Dude, just get rid of your $1,000/yr cable bill as electrictroy suggests. You'll be able to pay off those medical bills in 27 years if you do that!

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[ukemike]

The real blame lies with the 1990s president who repealed the Glass-Steagall of 1933 w

The majority of this can be put onto bad lending practices and the bundling and selling of these loans.

Actually both of you are right. The market deregulation that passed in Nov of 1999, and was signed by Clinton, allowed these financial institutions to speculate with near unlimited leveraging in the derivatives market (particularly the credit default swaps). That is what built the house of cards which is currently falling on our heads. The totally insane lending and even crazier repackaging of bad loans as AAA rated securities is what lead to the bottom level of cards being yanked out.

Incidentally had the 1999 market deregulation not passed that year, it would have reared it's ugly head again the next and it would certainly have been full of even more deregulation madness.
Watch your heads, there are something like 60 trillion dollars of impossible to value credit default swaps hanging out there waiting to come crashing down on us. Makes the $0.7 trillion bailout seem paltry. And that's nothing compared to the over one half quadrillion market for derivatives, that is equally shaky. Most of those derivatives are leveraged to the tune of 60:1. Leveraging in the range of 10:1 to 20:1 is what lead to the stock market crash of 1929. This ain't anywhere near being over with.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[mosch]

> Well, one way to hold Obama's feet to the fire is to say that you will vote for McCain if Obama doesn't say that he will reform the DCMA.

Sure. This makes sense if you believe the DMCA is more important than differing stances on foreign policy, education, science, health care, economic policy, neocolonialism, women's rights, etc, etc....

Personally I have trouble imagining anybody, from either party, switching their affiliation based on the DMCA.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Silverstrike]

I pay $0 on cable, $180 on internet, and I haven't bought a new computer in six years. As a result of this self-sacrifice, I have saved 1/2 a million in just five years, and I can EASILY afford a doctor's visit at any of a hundred hospitals within driving distance.

Given your estimates, you'd have saved $18,000 in 5 years. Your ability to save $500,000 in five years is helped by your frugality, but your frugality is certainly not the reason for your ability to save. Your above average income is.

If you SAVED your money, instead of wasting it on non-important trivia, you wouldn't have to hold your hand out. You'd be able to pay your own bills.

Yea, that's a really arrogant statement coming from someone who obviously is able to make $100,000+/year. I grew up the only son of a Bartender(mother) and a non-Union(Unions are evil through, right?) Bricklayer(father). Obviously, we did not have health insurance. I distinctly remember weeks of ramen and huge pots of homemade soup after I came down with strep throat, because the doctor's appointment and prescribed amoxicillian depleted the family budget for the month. This draconian cost cutting would happen anytime I got sick a as child. Can you even imagine how that made a young sick child feel? To know that his illness is essentially bankrupting the family?

Its not about "raiding" your wallet. Its about the acknowledging the value of human life and human dignity. Entitlement programs aren't there to keep fat rednecks on their couches in trailer parks. Yes, those people exist, and yes they do take advantage of government programs. But that is simply part of the cost. It can be mitigated with good regulation, and it can be controlled with good planning and thoughtful program design. But these programs are there there for people like my parents. Who built your house, served your beer, and who the rest of the world has to stand on top of to be "wealthy".

Because you can't on the top of the pile without standing on all the people underneath.

And to the GP: Don't worry. Obama's proposals will let you keep your employer coverage you covet. So you don't have to stand in line with the "Rabble".

One last thing, before you dismiss me as a poor parasite who wants to take your money away too. I'm a Sr. Software Engineer at a major development house, and I also run a consulting company. I will clear over $200,000 this year. I will pay for these programs too -- probably more than you will.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[spun]

Hey, look, if you are arguing that most politicians, regardless of party, are in the pockets of big business, I'm right with you. But you are trying to pin it all on the Democrats, and right now, they are BY FAR the lesser of two evils. The Republicans have turned into a sad parody of their true ideals.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Glendale2x]

I can only speak from experience with the Canadian system because my dad's side of the family is Canadian.

* One of my relatives had a stroke. They live in Ontario. The hospital in Windsor was too full and had no beds left, so they had to go across to Detroit.

* My Aunt needed a CT scan and the waiting list in her province was over 6 months long because of how equipment is distributed. Again, had to come here to the USA to get a CT scan sooner.

These are only two I can remember offhand. Sure, this is only two examples of being raped by the medical system in Canada, but quality healthcare is certainly not accessible nor available to everyone under such a system. It just forces people who can afford it to come here where there aren't any government restrictions.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Shakrai]

Yes my friend. He died in his mid-50s and chose to accept his death rather than fight it. If I had been in his shoes, I would have done the same. It is far wiser to accept death, than to live in denial about the inevitable. No matter how rich you are, or how much "free" healthcare your government gives you, you will not live forever. It is pointless to try.

You realize that not all cancer is an automatic death sentence, right? I might accept death if it was something incurable and treatment was only going to buy me a few months (I watched someone go through pancreatic cancer -- miserable way to go and the "treatment" seemed worse than the disease) but if it was something that could be treated and cured then I'd be damned if I was going to meekly accept death.

A friend of mine went through non-hodgkin lymphoma a few years back. Her first round of treatment cost over $120,000. Her second round over $80,000. I'd really like to hear how you think cutting out the cable bill would enable someone making a middle class salary to save up that kind of money.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in a major metro area in the US with more than fifty hospitals and hundreds of smaller medical offices. In fact, my city is known as a center of medical care. Do you know how long it takes me to get an appointment with my PCP, or any other general practitioner for that matter? Two months. There was a newspaper article recently about emergency rooms being overworked; people have to go there for things as simple as the flu, because they can't get to see their doctors in any reasonable time frame. Don't tell me that socialized medicine is the problem here.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[mrdoogee]

To use a metaphor:

Clinton steered the ship toward the rocks. Bush spent 7 1/2 years with the rocks in the front window and did nothing about it. Both seem to be to blame, but you have to hold the guy who's watch it happened on more responsible.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[vux984]

It's a matter of degree. In Canada, the average waiting time for a necessary surgery is 18 weeks. Having your appointment happen an hour late isn't even close.

Necessary surgery != Surgery you need today.

In Canada, its a perpetual system of triage. People who need the surgery most get it first.

That combined with budget limitations means that there are a lot of people who 'need' surgery but have to wait a long time to get it. In some cases they are perfectly fine, other times they are in discomfort or pain until they get it but their lives aren't at risk, and the condition isn't likely to worsen while they wait. And so these people end up waiting an unfortunately long time creating the long average times.

But if you need surgery now, its an immediate threat, or they expect your condition is going to worsen, you are moved up to the front of the queue. If its serious people get surgery within hours of showing up at the doctor.

So yeah, the Canadian system is a bummer for people who 'need surgery soon', because they usually have to wait a few months.

But contrasted with the American system, and I'm not sure what you are so smug about. Millions of uninsured people can't get the surgery at all. Millions of insured people are 'under insured' and won't get the surgery, millions more have adequate insurance and their insurance company still elects not to approve the procedure... "18 weeks" vs "No".

By any metrics Canada is healthier than the US. Lower infant mortality, longer life expectancy, better overall health. The majority of americans would actually be better off under the Canadian system than the American system, yet the wealthy elite have convinced them otherwise. Suckers.

Doubly so, because the wealthy elite are never subject to the system anyway, they can ALWAYS fly to Cuba or wherever to get some procedure or other done tomorrow, so by keeping unified health care out they aren't even protecting themselves from 'long wait times' because they'd never be subject to them anyway. They'd just rather see millions of their fellow american's die in the street than pay more taxes.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Foolicious]

No, buy many Americans jump on a plane to India because they can't afford to get their treatment in the US.

No. No no no. This is terribly and awfully anecdotal. You cannot just sling around words like "common" and "many" without providing even minor evidence of such. You need to provide evidence of the number of Americans that actually travel to India and then conduct a discussion around whether or not this number would qualify as "many" Americans. You cannot take something you read in a magazine or saw on 20/20 and start formulating policy based on that.

If we could see evidence that -- just for sake of discussion -- 0.1% of (just guessing) 200 million insured people had to go to India for a procedure they could not afford in the US, there'd be some merit to your argument. Otherwise, you're just telling stories that may tug at the heart strings, but aren't at all useful for the purpose of making broad decisions.

Again, how many is many?

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[eam]

Don't worry. They'll reform the DMCA. The new version will be identical except for a provision excluding political campaigns.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Grym]

Ok, if you are going to go there, please name 1 case of life-saving surgery that some US citizen required but they were denied because they couldn't afford it. Just 1, please.

This is a loaded question. To someone outside of the medical community, it might seem fair but it is not. First-hand, objective accounts of such stories are difficult to come by because patient records are confidential and healthcare providers have an ethical obligation (and legal obligation, a la HIPAA regulations) not to speak of such matters without approval from their patients. Plus, the chilling effect of rampant medical malpractice lawsuits has made many doctors silent out of fear of losing their livelihood for speaking the truth.

Another part of the problem with this question is the disparity between how a clinician might define "life-saving" and how the lay-public defines it. When most people think of "life-saving surgery" they often think only of surgical emergencies. It is true, in this respect, surgical emergencies are treated regardless of the ability to pay. But this is only a small aspect of medicine. Something as simple as bariatric surgery could literally be life-saving. A more mature definition of "life-saving surgery" might be: surgery for a medical condition which falls under the accepted standard of medical care and causally prevents death from that medical condition or associated complications. In that sense, the United States medical system frequently fails patients. And this failure is not limited to surgery.

An interesting aspect to all this is that by washing our hands of all non-emergency patients, the health care system may paradoxically end up being more expensive. Consider the hypothetical case of an uninsured heart attack patient who shows up in the emergency room and subsequently receives triple-bypass surgery. The associated costs with such a patient could be enormous. But what if this condition had been prevented by proper screening and preventative treatments like cholesterol or blood pressure reducing medications? In comparison, such expenses are negligible. And yet, hospitals are more likely to eat the cost of the former and not the latter because that is what the law and government incentivizes them to do.

If the sub-prime mortgage crisis is any sign, I think we are reaching a breaking point in our society. Greed and self-interest do not, in most cases, result in maximizing efficiency. It's the prisoner's dilemma and we have chosen self-interest over altruism--paradoxically at our own peril. In my opinion, the quintessential mistake of the past couple decades seems, to be a dogmatic belief that free market capitalism will always prevail in an unregulated environment, regardless of whether the underlying fundamentals to a free-market system are present and irrespective of the context. Medicine is not a widget. Greed is not good. The sooner we come to realize this, the better off we will be.

-Grym

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[garett_spencley]

I'm a Canadian and I'm not going to tell you that socialized medicine is the problem. However, many doctors here flee to the US where they can charge more, and the ones that stay are forced to take in increased patients if they want to make more money.

So anyway, 2 months to get an appointment with my family doctor sounds about right, and I'm lucky to have one. My daughter was talking before we finally found one, and we only got her because she's my mother's doctor.

Not trying to agrue socialized vs. privatized. It just doesn't seem like there is any side of the fence here where the grass looks greener on this issue.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Curunir_wolf]

I agree with your analysis, but your conclusions seem seriously misguided. You are absolutely correct that the current system is woefully inefficient, and far more expensive than it needs to be. Treating colds in the emergency room is simply not how things should be done.

However, you have made a couple of serious errors. You conclude that we have chosen self-interest over altruism. That's because, quite simply, people tend to act in their own self-interest, while altruism doesn't exist in the real world. At times, some misunderstood instinct or action taken out of enlightened self-interest may appear to be altruistic, but altruism not only can't be relied upon - it has been shown to be entirely non-existent in the human animal.

Your other error is assuming that there are free-market forces at work in the US Medical industry. There are very few if any. The entire system seems to be made up of a few oligarchical groups battling for slices of the pie, often using legislative variations of one stripe or another. So there are groups lobbying for doctors, there are huge hospital conglomerates, nurses unions, and insurance companies. For the most part, they don't market themselves to the consumers - they lobby Washington for favorable legislation.

Part of the problem with trying to introduce any kind of free market pressures is, as you pointed out, the lack of transparency. When the insurance companies contract with hospitals and doctor groups, and no outcome-based statistics can be found on hospitals and doctors (much less prices), how would consumers even do any comparison shopping for health care?

I don't have any answers to these issues. Disregarding the inefficiency and cost issues, I think the availability of health care in the US is outstanding, if not the best in the world. But the costs of the system will destroy it if we don't do something to fix the overhead and unfairness of the system.

The federal government has shown that they are not competent at solutions for this kind of thing, though. A big new bureaucracy in charge of all that money frankly frightens me, because it will quickly be corrupted.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[ari_j]

You are transferring your risk to the insurance company and paying a premium (the insurance term derives from the normal meaning: a price above what something is worth) for the transfer. The fact that risk is pooled is why the economics of insurance work out, but your statement of the "whole point of insurance", that being "to avoid financial disaster", is only true as a corollary. Financial disaster is a risk and you transfer that risk to an insurer.

In reality, having written that, I see that we agree on what the whole point of insurance is, I am just stating it one way and you are stating it another. Financial disaster is a risk and to avoid it is to transfer it to someone else. We both agree, despite you saying that I only gave "part of" the point of insurance, that the "whole point" is to accomplish this transfer/avoidance of risk/financial disaster.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[dunkelfalke]

what exactly is a problem with having both at once?
everyone gets the same basic health care and if someone wants to have better than average health care they can pay a premium.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Daetrin]

they remember the idiocy that is the DMCA and reform it?

It is naive of you to hope for this part, though. Good luck with that.

No it's not naive, in fact it's naive to think that any problem will get fixed in a timely manner when it doesn't directly affect the politicians in charge of making the laws. As the author of this article points out it was exactly such a process that led to the passage of the 1988 Video Privacy Protection Act. It won't be so much specifically "remembering the idiocy of the DMCA" that results in any changes though, it will be looking forward to the next election cycle and realizing that they'll have to deal with it again in two or four years when internet media will probably be an even more effective (and necessary) medium for campaigning.

But as also pointed out in the article, that will only happen if we don't let the politicians get away with trying to craft special rules for themselves that don't apply to everyone else.

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[sumdumass]

I haven't seen that particular story but I have seen others. I don't think the American system is the worst there is, in fact, we achieve much better results and until recently we have been known for making the most advancements in medical treatments. The Jarvis guy who invented the first artificial heart claims that if it wasn't for the environment and system in America, it wouldn't have been possible for him to do it. I'm sure there is room for debate there but that isn't important right now. Aside from our accounting differences and life style differences, we are on par or better then the rest of the world. In fact, the WHO's ranking of 37 is primarily due to perceived fairness and people covered. Of course the people covered and how fair that is distributed says nothing about the quality of the health care but more about the access to it. I might agree that access to health care is horrid in the US but I'm forced to blame the people just as much as the system.

There are nuances like reporting figures and stuff like that which skew direct comparisons of statistics across countries. I remember a story about Cuba having a low infant mortality rate then the US but then it came to be known that it was because if a birth was under so many pounds, regardless of what was done to save it or how long it lived, it was counted as a still birth where in America, if it lived longer then 24 hours, despite any birth weight, it gets counted as a live birth and doctors are required to attempt to save it. What you end up with is a lot more risk on the US side of evens simply because we didn't follow WHO reporting guidelines like Cuba did.

You have other stats like the number of fatalities from motor vehicle crashes and trama injuries that aren't directly comparable either. If you compare them to distances driven, we are in better standing then many European countries as the average distance traveled before a fatal crash is greater but if you count the actual number of fatalities per accident, we are worse off until you start counting DOAs and separating them. Heart attack is often skewed too, when you look at the time to treatment and the survivability, we are equal with Europe within the first 20 minutes. If it takes longer then 20 minutes before medical attention, it starts changing and we start flowing behind. But when you look at the living conditions in Europe compared to the US where we have larger living spaces, larger yards typically, and are spread out over larger areas, you see how it would be more difficult to get immediate medical attention to heart attack victims. Our number of people serviced by each hospital and the capacity compared to size is relatively the same, but the distances between them and the patients are greater in the US because of our lifestyles. This is mitigated by spreading emergency ambulatory serviced out but there is still a factor to consider. Often the first 5 to 20 minutes is the most critical in these situations.

Anyways, I'm not making excuses but I have yet to find any study that attempts to deal with this. Even within the states, we have issues like this. In my township, the average emergency response time for a medic call is 8 minutes. In the town ship next to us, it is 20 minutes. The average for the state is 16 minutes. Of course we benefit from a larger volunteer pool that arrive sooner then the emergency squad and start life saving procedures while the ambulance is still in route. I'm not entirely sure why we have so many qualified volunteers, it costs about $1,200 and 40 hours a year out of their own pockets for yearly retraining and certification (maybe that's the medic course and a tech would be less). It is more to get certified and they only get paid (*the volunteers that is) $5 for showing up to a call and $10 an hour for being there. Most calls don't even get them $20 and the people who already work for the county or township aren't allowed to get paid at all.

Anyways, it is more complex then a simple, they get that or this. We will have to pay for the thi

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[Bryansix]

Knowing WHICH city you are in might be important for you to get your argument across. Or it might disprove your argument which is why you left it out?

Re:We Can Only Hope the Same Happens to Obama

[sumdumass]

Maybe that is a problem with you PPO or HMO or whatever. Here is a question, were you recieving treatment before that two months?

I ask this because My family doctor would typically have a 2 week wait before he died. Anyways, his nurse would take out symptoms over the phone when taking the call, in many cases, except when I cut myself and she told me to go to the hospital, they phoned in prescriptions based on our patient history, what was going around at the time (doctors have a good idea of viruses and bugs floating around) and our descriptions of our symptoms. When we saw him in 2 weeks, 3 at the most, it was more of a followup visit and most of our symptoms had disappeared. Once, he sent me for a blood gas analysis thinking I had some sort of hepatitis due to the color of the whites of my eyes but it was because I was eating raw carrots all weeks long because it seemed to be the only thing I could keep down.

Only once was I faced with a 2 month or longer wait. It was when attempting to get approval from my provider for as test. It took 6 months to get the approval because the first app listed the wrong condition and they switched case workers on me (because of the condition) and the second app didn't make it to the right person. When making the appointment, they scheduled it for 2 months later, I explained that I have already been waiting 6 months for the approval, I was in a week later. She explained that they leave a couple slots open each week for situations like that.

Socialize medicine might not be the problem with you, but with the exception of one time that almost took two weeks, I have never experienced what you claimed and think it is a sign of your health care providers network more then anything else.

Fair use or Political attacks?

[BadAnalogyGuy]

Why should McCain be against takedowns? That seems to be the entirety of his election strategy this year.

Oh please

[Exanon]

To think that the DMCA defenders would actually change their minds over this is ridiculous. They wont care about the DMCA since it doesn't affect them for the most part. Once the videos are back, the DMCA will once again be "a much needed weapon to save hundreds of thousands of jobs in the US, it said so right here in this report".

Re:Oh please

[Anonymous Coward]

So you're saying your job and company are dependent on a highly out-dated business model? Perhaps you should spend some time and money investing in something that will last into the future better...

You tell him!

The new business model/employment model is becoming groveling for handouts from Government. That's my new plan. While all of you are working your asses off for declining pay, especially in IT because IT - all of IT especially programming - is a commodity to be gotten anywhere for pennies on the dollar; I'll be collecting handouts from the Government that your tax dollars are paying for.

I tried the loser route of learning new skills, going to school and getting more degrees, but you know what? No one wants to hire a middle aged career changer.

So while your job is being sent overseas or becoming irrelevant because a company can get a free version (there's only so many service jobs for F/OSS to go around and they go overseas too.),I want you to know, I'm here sitting on my ass, Trolling Slashdot, rubbing in your faces that _I_ don't have to work and I'm just having a blast! I'm living the future of America!

So, thank you for working so hard.

Gotta go! My champagne spritzers an omlettes are ready. I also have to go to get another bottle of Johnny Walker Blue after my Mercedes is done at the shop. I'm having mink seat cushions put in and then I'm going to fuck a PETA chick on them.

Oh, Please...

[BadAnalogyGuy]

Money != speech

Re:Oh, Please...

[schwit1]

Opinions vary.

Re:Oh, Please...

[aproposofwhat]

But

Money == <access to advertising slots>

What's good for the goose...

[cduffy]

McCain voted for a bill (the DMCA) that made service providers responsible for doing an immediate takedown of content alleged to have been improperly posted regardless of the merits of the complaint if they wanted the fullest protections the law could provide. Complaining when a company is complying in full with that law hardly seems fitting.

It's almost a shame the Obama campaign isn't submitting more content (defensible as fair use) that could be mechanically considered to infringe themselves; if this were the case, there would be less perception that YouTube is pushing a political agenda via their takedown process.

Re:What's good for the goose...

[FireFury03]

DMCA aside, videos published on the web don't *have* to be published through YouTube. If you don't like your publisher's policies, change publisher or publish it yourself. Americans are always very protective of the free market, and this is an example of why it is a good thing - there are alternatives to YouTube, use them.

Bunch of damn pinko commies

[overshoot]

They don't seem to realize that this is John McCain they're dealing with not some nobody prole.

here's...

[cosmocain]

...the whole letter. While it's an interesting read - does anybody know if McCain voted pro-DMCA?

Re:here's...

[Hognoxious]

I think it's similar to automagically, except instead of a spell it uses a robot.

Perhaps you shouldn't have voted for it...

[Endymion]

If this law is hampering your campaign, why did you vote for it, McCain?!

I'd say you could potentially gain back some of your totally trampled credibility by suddenly proposing a repeal of the DMCA with your senate position, but I somehow doubt that such a miracle would occur...

Re:Perhaps you shouldn't have voted for it...

[Anonymous Coward]

Because he was for it before he was against it.

Re:HAHAHAHAHAHA

[electrictroy]

here's the actual vote:
SENATE: 100% Democrats; 100% Republicans (unaminous)
HOUSE: 90% Democrats; 85% Republicans (veto-proof)
PRESIDENT:
Signed by *democrat* William J. Clinton in 1998.

What was that about being a "republican" bill? It looks like a typical Duopoly bill to me, supported by BOTH sides, since they both pretty much act alike.

Body of the letter

[will_die]

The letter is available at http://lessig.org/blog/YouTube%20copyright%20letter%2010.13.08.pdf.

Checkmate

[IndustrialComplex]

If anything happens, they'll just see to it that the DMCA doesn't apply to political ads.

That would be perfect.

Since there does exist an actual http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party Pirate Party. Now put a political message in the metadata of your files, and claim your exemption.

I'm certain that The Pirate Party would have no issue endorsing files so that they received DCMA exemptions.

(The Pirate Party of Podunk County has approved this message)

Re:Checkmate

[ZorbaTHut]

Don't worry, "political party" will be carefully defined so it only applies to Democrats and Republicans.

Re:HAHAHAHAHAHA

[schwit1]

Hypocrisy is ignorant people who are clueless to the facts. Both parties are culpable in passing this abomination.

Re:HAHAHAHAHAHA

[IndustrialComplex]

here's the actual vote:
SENATE: 100% Democrats; 100% Republicans (unaminous)
HOUSE: 90% Democrats; 85% Republicans (veto-proof)
PRESIDENT:
Signed by *democrat* William J. Clinton in 1998.

What was that about being a "republican" bill? It looks like a typical Duopoly bill to me, supported by BOTH sides, since they both pretty much act alike.

People like the person you were addressing are a serious impediment to rational discourse on the internet. They are insulated by the web, and have created some sort of cognitive dissonance that hides the real world situation from themselves.

Typical fanboy behavior. Unfortunately, it applies to all aspects of society; Sports teams, cities, nations, ethnicities, OS, and obviously politicians all have their fanboys. What really bugs me is when people like him get so wound up in their own fanaticism that they begin to engage in the old practice of 'If I can't have it, then no one can.'

But thanks for looking up the vote totals. I like to see that sort of information tossed back at these fanatics at every opportunity regardless of claims to any political ideology.

Obama foresaw this and prevented it

[MobyDisk]

Anyone remember this article?
Obama Requests Creative Commons for Presidential Debates

That is when I started liking the guy. Seems like he was even more prescient than I thought.

Re:Obama foresaw this and prevented it

[Lijemo]

Query? Would making political speech under creative commons allow people to edit, change, alter and redistribute things without keeping the initial Text intact? I've seen a few transcripts in the AP that clearly were edited, sometimes in favor, or against a particular candidate, and sometimes blatantly wrong.

It would depend on which Creative Commons license was used.

Want to end the campaign now? Ask this:

[IndustrialComplex]

I would love to have this question asked at tonight's debate.

"Senator McCain, your campaign is complaining that it is being unfairly censored by the DMCA. How do you reconcile your complaint when you yourself voted for this exact measure?

I'm no Obama supporter, but I'd love to watch him answer that question.

Ha Ha!

[Fujisawa Sensei]

Hey McCain,

Its your bill, in at least the fact that you voted for it?

Since you're a Senator are you going show some genuine spine, and sponsor legislation to change or repeal that POS?

Web Forms - So you can laugh at your Senator

[The Breeze]

Here's a copy of an email I sent to my fellow Arizonan:

Ah, John. Your ill-advised vote back in 1998 for the DMCA has come back to bite you. It was with great pleasure that I read that Youtube was taking down your campaign videos due to a DMCA demand by Fox and CBS. You helped pass it. Sir, Barry Goldwater was a conservative. William Buckley was a conservative. A conservative wants FEWER laws, not more. LESS government regulation, not more. A conservative encourages a business-friendly environment - NOT a "business gets anything it wants" environment. You have forgotten the difference, and now you are paying the price. Your presidential campaign is all but over. You have lost the conservative base with your poorly-thought-out desperate attempts to please everyone. You had us, right until you took the supremely idiotic step of suspending your campaign - which was a clear political ploy that backfired. Capitalism is vital, but part of the price of capitalism is sometimes suffering failure. Bankruptcy, too is part of the failure process - entrepreneurs and other people need to know that they have a chance to start over if they fail. Your vote on the Bankruptcy Act of 2005, making it MORE difficult for all but the richest Americans to declare bankruptcy was another gift to business. And still, you persist in giving business whatever they want, at the expense of average Americans, with your recent idiotic vote on the "Copyright Czar" legislation. The record companies and motion picture companies have a broken business model that is being supplanted by new technologies, and like your ridiculous bank bailout bill you have chosen to give them what they want rather than letting them pay the price of failure. I will be voting for Bob Barr this election, not out of any hope that he will win, but rather in the hope that Republican political operatives will realize that increasing numbers of their traditional base can no longer stomach voting for so-called "Republicans" who don't seem any different from Democrats. I look forward to supporting your continued efforts in the Senate on behalf of Arizona, but your presidential campaign is over.

Re:Figures... it only matters if it's THEIR videos

[The Second Horseman]

Because most people don't give a damn about anything until it personally affects them? That's human nature. That's why McCain is freaking out about the poll numbers lately - people generally vote their wallets, with occasionally security concerns winning out.

The reason we hear about the DMCA here on Slashdot is because it has an effect on the typical Slashdot reader. A group who isn't very representative of the population. You think it's based on principle? Hah. Simple rationalization.

Re:Want to end the campaign now? Ask this:

[IndustrialComplex]

My friends, I've always been a maverick and an outsider. So when I voted for the DMCA, I knew that I was sticking it to the man. Because, as a Senator, I am 'The Man'. It was the most logical way for me to stick it to myself.

Funny ....

[gstoddart]

If this was a 30 second video of a baby dancing to a Prince song, McCain wouldn't think that YouTube was doing anything untoward by obeying a take down video. The fact that this is a political message doesn't mean that YouTube pretty much has to comply with a DMCA notice if it actually looks valid, right?

This seems more like it's whining over the fact that it's his video which is being taken down. Maybe he should be pissed at CBS and Fox for ordering the takedown of his stuff and sue them.

This sounds like selective outrage to me. If Di$ney was issuing notices over Steam Boat Willie, McCain would think they're just protecting their interests and that's OK.

Cheers

Re:Funny ....

[DragonTHC]

I have to agree. He thinks his use isn't commercial. His goal may not be money, but it's definitely commercial. It's even called a commercial.

He thinks he should be immune from the DMCA. I say BS. Since several artists have already complained about McCain using their work without authorization, I think it only fair.

Jackson Browne has sued the McCain campaign, and Ann and Nancy Wilson have derided the McCain campaign for unauthorized use.

I am glad McCain is getting a taste of his own medicine.

Re:McCain has no shot.

[Ioldanach]

I think the Republican Party needs to lay low for a few years, be an opposition party, and come up with a new plan and a new message. We've played all the old cards and its time to come up with the something new.

Maybe they could become the party of fiscal responsibility and small government again, it worked pretty well before they abandoned it a couple decades ago. They keep airing ads about "those tax and spend liberals," which are funny coming from what's now the party of tax and spend conservatives.

Re:HAHAHAHAHAHA

[Ded Bob]

Typical fanboy behavior. Unfortunately, it applies to all aspects of society; Sports teams, cities, nations, ethnicities, OS, and obviously politicians...

You forgot the most vehement categories: editors and shells. :)

I agree with you. While I highly prefer vim and zsh, I have no issue with someone else using Emacs or bash. Another thing to consider is that people are determined to see things in black and white. I am tired of hearing how there are only two options when Congress is deciding something. R's want one thing and D's want another. The two options will of course be (almost) complete opposites. Compromise or another possibility that does not upset either party is not an option.

Maybe the number of options proposed is related to the number of parties present in Congress?

Media has a vested interest in a tight race

[spun]

They don't love Obama, if they did, they would be crowing about how the election is already in the bag. Democrates have over 270 electoral votes, within the margin of polling error. It's a done deal, we've won the presidency. The only question is, will Democrats take a filibuster proof supermajority in both houses? If the media were really liberal, instead of greedy, they would tell the truth. But a tight race means more viewers, so they continue to make it seem closer than it is.

Re:Media has a vested interest in a tight race

[R2.0]

They don't love Obama, if they did, they would be crowing about how the election is already in the bag. Democrates have over 270 electoral votes, within the margin of polling error. It's a done deal, we've won the presidency. The only question is, will Democrats take a filibuster proof supermajority in both houses?

Three words: "Dewey Defeats Truman" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dewey_Defeats_Truman

If the media were really liberal, instead of greedy, they would tell the truth. But a tight race means more viewers, so they continue to make it seem closer than it is.

I would be THRILLED if the media declared Obama the victor - it would guarantee a McCain victory. It would fire up the Republican base and depress the Democrats turnout - why bother voting when the election is in the bag? 19 days is a looooong time, especially this year. THAT's why the media hasn't done so - it would hurt Obama, and could not possibly help him.

But I encourage you strongly to keep telling everyone how the election is already won.

Oddly interesting. in my foriegn point of view.

[Magdalene]

Perhaps the Republican Candidate's response is linked to all the hell they got in for attempting to fraudulently use all those songs in their campaign ads that were later pulled because the artists who owned the songs had not given their consent? Perhaps the party had been downloading them..

But, what do I know. I just watched the rest of my country re elect the same bozo into the same minority government Proving that people everywhere get their IQ's lopped off at the knees when elections star. . At least the Head Bozo didn't get the Majority he wanted, Things remain pretty much the same as they were yesterday. Except Prime minister Bozon gets to be happy he keeps the key to the club pool house.

Down South on the other-hand, Oh jeez I am so happy I am not having to live through the election poop you guys are having to go through with the Wicked witch of the way up norther than here. If she gets to be your new VP you can bet Shiny new apples will be on his desk every morning. **insert high pitched cackle, poof of badly animated smoke with the word *POOF* written on it in big bold 24p letters, hairpins clattering to the ground here**, and she'll be *GONE!* off to speed back to the the community centre to see how her 'babies without birthrights' Christis (silent T of course) meeting, to see about housing for these misguided young 'mothers to be' Freedom Centres to borrow from Margaret Atwood, a Freedom 'From' Centre more likely: "We would provide for all her needs and expenses, she would have access to doctors, counsellors and peers on call for her 24 hours a day, in a safe, secure environment, free from stresses that might unduly effect the health of the mother or the baby she is carrying!" in Palinese it sounds nice, but translated into English our 'scenario gets a tad more complicated: Forced Confinement, Constant 24 hour monitoring, 24 hour full propaganda assault, total control of her environment,
I know, I am not an American, but I may in fact have far more experience that she in foreign policy. While she can say she can see Russia from her house. Not only can I see the USA from my house, but I have been to it several times and also, I can speak the language, and oddly 'some of my best friends are American. ;
-m

When the rules you vote for come back to haunt you

[jriding]

Wow it really sucks when the rules that you agree to come back to bite you in the butt..

next up I hope every senator and congressmen have to use the normal (what most people have) health insurance. Then maybe they will start to look at the health insurance companies and fix that.

and no I do not be live in socializing medical treatment, but something should be done with the health insurance companies.

Re:Special Treatment

[MillionthMonkey]

I don't find his objection to the DMCA remarkable, in the light that he regularly ignores plain old cease and desist orders.

His campaign was playing "Barracuda" at Palin rallies without getting permission. Amy and Nancy Wilson of Heart got upset and he got a cease and desist letter. Even after this had all been in the news, they played Barracuda again as they dropped the balloons on Palin at the GOP convention.

dumbest right wing in the world

[justleavealonemmmkay]

Meanwhile, HBO and Comedy central with their far left leaning show hosts are still readily available to my liberal european eyes (and they are funnier too)

Not if you do it right

[Weaselmancer]

The difference is, when you do get to see them it can bankrupt you (even if you thought you had insurance).

My wife had to have a very expensive procedure done. Twice. I'm not going to get into it but it did wind up costing more than the house we live in.

The doctor would not proceed with the procedure until after we contacted our insurance carrier and got a letter of confirmation from them. We told them what we wanted done, they said ok, and once the doc had the letter in hand the procedure would commence.

All you really need to do is contact your insurance beforehand and CYA. It's not such a big deal.

BTW, my wife's condition is ultra-rare, there are only 3 or 4 specialists in our entire state, and we've never had to wait more than a week. Hell, they'll call us if they think we should have a checkup and schedule it for us. I don't know where you go for your medicine, but if they're making you wait for months on end you should shop around more and find some people who care.

Re:Not if you do it right

[the_macman]

My girlfriend has a condition where her front teeth couldn't touch because her bottom jaw was misaligned. It caused her a lot of pain and she couldn't smile or chew properly.

The operation was going to cost $40k+.

She got a letter from her insurance company handed it to the doctor and the operation was completed. Shortly after all, these bills started showing up and the insurance company reneged on their promise. They claimed it was a "cosmetic surgery". After two years of legal battle they finally yielded and paid the doctor.

So I'm sorry you're wrong. Your letter isn't a golden ticket to hassle free surgery.

Re:Not if you do it right

[SETIGuy]

All you really need to do is contact your insurance beforehand and CYA. It's not such a big deal.

I don't know where you are living. Here in the SF Bay Area the wait come in trying to see a specialist in the first place. You get a list of potential "service providers" from your insurance and you start calling. The most common response will be "I'm sorry, Dr. Jones isn't taking on any new patients at this time." If you keep calling long enough you might be able to find someone that will see you in 8 months or so.

At one point I was in an emergency room with someone in the process of slowly dying. The nurse handed us a phone book and phone so we could find someone who could perform an emergency procedure. According to Senator McCain, I have a gold plated health plan. Yeah, private health care works great...

Re:HAHAHAHAHAHA

[chadenright]

You are mistaken. Ignorance is when ignorant people are clueless to the facts. To an extent, ignorance is forgivable. Hypocrasy is when someone has the facts and chooses to ignore them.

Re:McCain has no shot.

[Danny Rathjens]

It's more like "spend and spend conservatives", rather than "tax and spend". All that debt comes from somewhere.