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Appropriate Tech, 300mpg Car Top 2008 Innovators
longacre writes "While some giggles were floating around about the irony of a Microsoft product (Photosynth) finding itself on the same top 10 products list as a toilet, the true stars of last night's annual Popular Mechanics Breakthrough Awards were innovations of far more consequence. MIT professor Amy B. Smith won the marquis Leadership Award for her work on building simple, low-cost technology to help developing countries. Joining Smith from the appropriate technology field were a group of CalTech students who created all-terrain wheelchairs for the disabled, and a Procter & Gamble exec who developed a water purifying powder for the third world. Aptera Vehicles founders Steve Ambro and Chris Anthony made the cut for their 300mpg Typ-1e, which is expected to hit showrooms by the end of this year. Other winners ranged from the Mars Phoenix Lander team, to the developers of a low-cost cancer test, to the creators of Spore."
300mpg is impressive, but they stopped selling trike's for a reason ( and they now sell quad's in their place ).
That trend with electric vehicles actually worries me, and I can't help but wonder at the safety implications.
Is it really so difficult to keep the drag co-efficient down without losing the extra wheel?
GrpA
Enjoy science fiction? "Turing Evolved" - AI, Mecha, Androids and rail-gun battles. What more could you want?
Single front-wheel trikes are dangerous. Single back-wheel trikes are pratically as stable as a four-wheeler.
As a bonus, this one looks amazing (saw one in person this summer): http://spyder.brp.com/
Not this one. That's just lame and very unimaginative.
NOW we're talking! A black-designed engery conversion system from a NASA nuclear engineer who built his first robot with jukebox and grill parts and fried chikkin, all powered by ethanol.
Here's to you, mister super-soaker designer. Your gradients have provided energy and entertainment for the adult in us who never forgot James Brown's early performances at the Apollo.
GO 'BAMA!
Agreed. This car is way too impractical to ever see common use on American roads. Pit this versus a full size truck or even a semi and it has little chance. Honestly though, with the advances in TDI diesel engines and hybrid technologies, I feel the future is not in electric cars.
If sharing a song makes you a pirate, what do I have to share to be a ninja?
If you bother to read the blurb for the Aptera, you'll see the 300mpg claim is for a fully charged hybrid.
Unfortunately there was no information on how many gallons of electricity it holds.
With everyone mad when gas for 4$ a gallon the in the US, if we had a flood of cards getting this kinda of millage, what do you all think would happen with gas prices?
Pit this versus a full size truck or even a semi and it has little chance.
And what small economy car do you want to drive head-on into a semi? Frankly, unless it is another semi, you are going to have a very bad day... And even if it is another semi, the day won't be good.
Why does everyone cry "Safety" whenever a small car is introduced. Think of it as a motorcycle with a roof and it becomes much easier to envision driving to work every day. I doubt if I'm the only one tired of the safety cops trying to controll everything I do. Dangerous is FUN.
I'd still question the stability. It depends on the location of the CoP, which can vary depending on the situation the vehicle finds itself in.
Front-wheel trikes are succeptible to issues when braking (CoP moves forward) and turning (CoP moves to the side) at the same time.
Under those circumstances, which are reasonably likely to occur, I agree with you on the configuration.
However, under other circumstances involving stability and under high yaw (eg, braking causes the car to spin, etc, and with less traction on one rear tire than two) I'd still be fearful that the car would flip rather than slide - all that really needs to happen, IMO, is for the back-end to spin around to the front under braking.
Plus you also have the issues related to contact surface area of the rear tire.
I guess I'm talking about the kinds of positions you might find yourself in, that you learn to deal with in an advanced driving course, but whenever you go for three wheels, the first compromise is stability.
The car does look nice though... Like a composite body aircraft cockpit - :)
GrpA
Enjoy science fiction? "Turing Evolved" - AI, Mecha, Androids and rail-gun battles. What more could you want?
Quite true, so long as the CoM is positioned just behind the front wheels. When braking, that puts the CG directly between the front wheels. You're left with the same resistance to rollover, but you have a lower moment of inertia, so it's more responsive. Also, with two wheels at front steering, just like in a normal car, you have similar tendancy toward understeer rather than the extreme oversteer of "delta" trikes.
There was a good article from Road and Track in May 1982 where they tested various configurations; there's excerpts here.
Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
Not to mention that its roof and door crush strengths are over double the NTSB standard. Composite monocoque structures are nice that way.
The crash test results should put a lot of concerns at rest. Yes, they've been simulating crash tests with the same software that BMW uses, but nothing comforts like real-world tests. They just took the jobs for crash test engineers off their jobs page, so looks like they've been filled.
Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
I'd like to see what happens to the drag coefficient(and the dent in the wallet of the owner) if that thing gets a ding
My mother in law laughed off the suggestion of damage to the Aptera when it came up in a conversation. She used to work at a place that built fiberglass hovercraft and said that they're pretty easy to repair. This is a 6th generation quilter in her sixties. Besides, composites are a lot more resistant to damage than steel. As for taking out a wheel, do you really think a thin metal skin on your car around your wheels is offering any relevant protection?
In other words, nerds, think about this: If you were at a party
Your insight into the mind of women is stunning. Really.
Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
i don't really see trikes as a trend with electric vehicles. there are trike gas-powered vehicles as well, just as there are electric bikes, quads, cars, and trucks.
i think companies that sell/develop electric vehicles tend to be more innovative and like to experiment with alternate vehicle designs/technologies. so perhaps that's why you've seen more electric trikes in proportion to four-wheel electrics than with gas-powered vehicles. but there's no direct link between electric propulsion and three-wheeled vehicle layouts. those are two completely unrelated design choices.
also, your generalization of safety based on wheel layout is also flawed. trikes are at least more stable than bikes, so why not complain about 2-wheel vehicles? obviously each wheel layout has its advantages and disadvantages, and it's good that the public has many design choices to choose from whether they want to get an electric vehicle, gas vehicle, or a hybrid.
So when will I be able to buy one?
by that logic we should all drive tanks so that when we get in accidents our cars survive but we die (crumple zones are designed so that the car absorb the energy from a collision rather than passengers). your attitude is more suited to destruction derby than road safety.
ICE engines are a technological anachronism no matter how you slice it--both environmentally and in terms of energy efficiency. so what you feel is based on irrational beliefs. the only reason hybrids are useful now is because we haven't yet built the infrastructure for plug-in electric vehicles to completely replace ICE vehicles. it's an intermediate phase. it would not make sense to have hybrids if electric propulsion did not have advantages over ICE propulsion.
but all forms of progress, whether technological, cultural, social, or political, there will be a strong rearguard reaction to overcome. therefore it's important to disseminate information and encourage people to take a rational approach to the issue rather than falling victim to knee-jerk responses based on ignorant reactionary attitudes. luckily there are companies out there working to dispel false negative perceptions of electric vehicles as a lot of people still associate environmentally-friendly with poor performance.
I swear, Microsoft must be paying millions to promote Photosynth through teh grassrootz. It's absolutely hilarious to watch my friends who are Mac fangirls complain about how IE sucks, MS is going down the tubes, etc. but when it gets to PHOTO-freaking-synth, NOW we're talking. I get Photosynth Youtube videos and TED talks and all this made-for-hype stuff in my inbox and yet the coolest projects I see are again and again made by people who don't have money to promote their stuff.
our new 300MPG overlords...
But what I really want to know is the range on the hybrid. I am an outside sales rep and REALLY rack the miles, like 38K a year. Something like this could be GREAT for me and would likely be worth a look if it got me HOV lane privlidges and I could run 2 days on 2 gallons of fuel... However, if it does not have sufficient range it is of little use to me. Also, what will the price be for the hybrid? The all electric would be great, but I don't have 8 hours in the middle of my day to recharge the thing.
"It seems that we are at the age where life stops giving us things, and starts taking them away..." Indiana Jones
Well I won't comment (I don't build cars and I am not a physicist) but here's an old clip of one of their first prototypes being driven around the parking lot.
Thank you. It's good to hear important and useful innovation from corporate sector for a change. Disturbing that it was not viable in the marketplace, however...
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
The picture of the #1 item on the list - the toilet looks like[1] one I had in my apartment in Tokyo almost 10 years ago. WTF? Is this a joke, or have people really gotten that insular and stupid in the US?
[1] It does not have the control panel to flush water up your ass after pooping nor heat the toilet seat like Japanese toilets did back then the "innovative" water thingy looks identical.
It's muchmuchmuch easier to avoid a crash in the first place in a small, maneuverable vehicle than in a big one with a lot of mass. Semi dodges a kid in the road, swerves into another lane with oncoming traffic. Now try to get that huge mass to swerve back into the proper lane. Try the same dodge in a motorcycle, small car or something similar.
What I am surprised is that most conventional cars don't have as aerodynamic bodies as this. It almost looks like a plane modified to travel on roads. I would have thought something like this would have caught hold back in the late 1970's. We would have saved lots of gas just going with an aerodynamic body, which would have pushed the state of the art much farther today. I am looking forward to conventional cars begin to adapt aerodynamic design features from high-end exotic military planes like the F117 & Northrup Grumman B-2. Who knows, if this trend keeps up [and will overtake the state of the art, due to volume], automakers might be giving ideas to military aircraft designers.
You might have to make a safety compromise and learn to drive it properly. Even so, my fiance's 50cc Honda Metropolitan gets around 100mpg with a top speed of 40mph. My dual sport 250cc Kawasaki Super Sherpa gets around 70mpg at 40mph with the stock tires on pavement and has a top speed near 70mph. Not having to worry about being visible to other drivers and the fatigue caused by poor weather would be a huge improvement also. Unfortunately I don't see this requiring a motorcycle endorsement or similar in order to drive, like Cushmans or other similar vehicles, and the cost will be far more prohibitive than that of a 250cc motorcycle or scooter. You might want to wear a helmet while driving it though. I'd recommend one of the motorcycle helmets with the flip down visors like fighter pilots have!
They just took the jobs for crash test engineers off their jobs page, so looks like they've been filled.
Or they suddenly realized: Hey! We're building a motorcycle, we don't need any crash tests!
Truly impressive is the cleaning water powder. Read the article and watch the video.
"During a visit to Popular Mechanics last winter, Allgood converted a jar of murky liquid containing fecal matter into clear, potable water. (Yes, the editors drank it - after Allgood went first.)"
This is real innovation that is going to save thousands of lives.
It doesn't get 300 mpg. It gets a more reasonable, (and still quite impressive) 130 mpg. Why people feel the need to inflate mileage with "free" electricity in the hybrid parts is quite a mystery to me.
To properly gauge you have to take a holistic approach to these things: what is it's "miles per dollar."
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
It isn't so much about drag co-efficient as about keeping the weight down. With a 4th wheel it can no longer be classified as a motorcycle and then must meet stricter safety requirements. So it isn't a 300mpg car.
300mpg though is still quite impressive. Honda's 50cc scooters get near 100mpg and small motorcycles get 60-70mpg. The best balanced cost/safety/efficiency right now seems to be a hacked Prius to get up to 200+ mpg.
you MUST have the same safety on these electric cars as any normal car, they will be in accidents ranging from small fender benders to multi car pile ups.
anyway it's a pretty moot point. this 300mpg thing is just a fucking toy, it only takes one person and has fuck all carry space.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
A friend of mine has one, I've ridden it. It's a fantastic machine. I think he said he paid $19k for it. He sold his '86 BMW with a side car to get it. Really, Really amazing bike (do we still call it a 'bike'?)!
put the what in the where?
The GP is absolutely correct, though. Americans have this mentality of assuming that crashes are inevitable that's not shared in much of the rest of the world. Hence, a lot of Americans only feel comfortable driving overweight (read: unmaneuverable) armored tanks that make them *more* likely to be involved in accidents. Statistics bear this out; SUVs are more likely to be involved in accidents than small cars.
As for safety: try over double the NTSB standards on roof and door crush strength, modelled with the same crash-survivability testing software that BMW uses, with normal car safety features (traction control, dual airbags... Actually the airbags are among the most advanced on the market -- in-seatbelt curtain airbags), and so on down the line. And I'll take a crash in a composite vehicle over a steel one any day. You ever seen the sort of 100+mph crashes of exotics that people walk away from? It's pretty amazing.
As for your last line, you're completely wrong on all counts. It's a 2+1 seater -- two full sized seats in the front and one seat for a small child in the back. And it has 16 cubic feet of trunk space, which is the size of your typical sedan's trunk. This is not a small car -- just an unusually shaped one. The unusual shape eliminates the presence of a normal backseat in exchange for the aerodynamics to gain its extreme efficiency.
Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
TFA mentions that it's 130 mpg after the initial charge of the batteries is drained. The 300 mpg claim hides the electrical energy that's put into the car, as if that's free. I appreciate that specifying fuel consumption is complex for a plug-in hybrid, but this type of claim is just plain lying.
While this car is impressive, I think the car designed in 1999 and going on sale in a year and a bit is much more amazing.
Just think, the pres of VW got 317 miles per (imperial) gallon driving this thing to a press conference. This is without any batteries or hybrid tech.
I would be happy with a runabout that achieved just half of that.
Below are links if you have not read about it yet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_1-litre_car
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/gw/vw1litre.htm
MIT professor Amy B. Smith won the marquis Leadership Award for her work on building simple, low-cost technology to help developing countries.
what do you use for developing countries? Microsoft Visual Country 2008?
Do not trust this signature.
I remember in Japan for many years seeing toilets with spigots at the top of the tank, not to mention dual flush, heated seats, and no need for paper, thanks to a water spray and air dryer. So I'd hardly call it a breakthrough product.
It's the 21st century and we're still rubbing our ass cracks with dead trees.
1 person? no space? while it's not a fucking SUV, 90% of the asses I pass on the freeways only have 1 person in their car. The Aptera seats 2 adults, plus has space for a child seat. Additionally, there is actually quite a bit of storage. You should try, I dunno, actually looking at info on something before you spout BS about it. Right on aptera.com is a demonstration of it fiting a couple snowboards, a surfboard, and etc all in at once. Is it an SUV? No, but those are what the hell the problem is. It is purposefully /not/ that.
But eh, I'm biased, I suppose...Aptera reservation #1397. From their website:
"What is the seating and cargo space?
The Aptera has "two plus one" seating allowing plenty of room for driver and passenger while an infant seat (newborn to age three) can be located in the middle behind the front seating. There is enough storage space to fit 15 bags of groceries, two full-size golf club bags or even a couple of seven foot surf boards. "
Losing the third wheel has a whole range of benefits. One, it gets the motorcycle classification, which allows them to have a lot more of a free hand in how to design things. To Aptera's credit, they're voluntarily doing the normal safety things, although some companies use the motorcycle classification to avoid things like crash tests. The other issues are practical, not legal. Given that the ideal shape is either a teardrop or a truncated teardrop (depending on the situation), the aerodynamic benefits of a central rear wheel are obvious. Another hypercar -- the Volkswagen 1L car -- has four wheels so it can retain the car classification, but it puts them right next to each other, basically making it effectively into a three wheeler. There are some major weight benefits from ditching that extra wheel. Not only do you lose the weight of a wheel and a tire, but you also lose the weight of a driveshaft, differential, etc. And not only does losing these parts cut weight, but it also cuts manufacture cost and time as well as maintenance costs (less to break). Lastly, three wheels improves vehicle response time since the average distance from the center of mass to the wheels gets reduced and the mass is decreased. So, lots of benefits.
With a "tadpole" configuration (two wheels in front, one in rear), you retain essentially all of the stability for driving in "normal" conditions. However, you lose stability in "unusual" conditions (a good example being skidding backwards or nearly backwards at high speeds). Basically, don't be an idiot and try to pull a J-turn in a tadpole trike unless you're fond of injuring yourself.
Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
Not really 300mpg as it's electric with a range of 120 miles. TFA says they may do a hybrid that does 130mpg (US I assume). Not too bad. If you want 4 wheels and better economy then the Loremo looks cool if it ever gets into production
http://evolution.loremo.com/
As for safety, the US has issues if their fatality rate is x3 the UK one
http://www.driveandstayalive.com/info%20section/statistics/stats-multicountry-percapita-2004.htm
We old guys remember the Aero Morgan - a three wheeler with a V-twin light aircraft engine at the front and a single rear wheel. In those days there was no front wheel drive, so it was far less advanced than the Aptera. They used to race these things, in Germany no less, and seeing a whole lot of them going through bends at over 100mph was a slightly worrying sight, but fun. Nowadays you may see one in the UK out on a rare sunny day. The point is, although very niche, they were a well proven design which attracted a devoted following. The Aptera might well do the same.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
Can you use it to transport a family (2+2) to/from shopping?
Other than that it is a nice development.
"by that logic we should all drive tanks ..."
The M1A1 Abrams is a good choice. It makes for a good href="http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cbd_1205278167" title="www.liveleak.com">traffic jam tactic, and forget about 'road rage induced shouting/fisticuff actions....120mm smoothbore SABOT goodness, baby! (never mind the turret mount .50 BMG and the coax machine gun/machine cannon)
You are forgetting about the 'automagical inertial compensators'-available at a theater near you soon!
On an 'on-topic' and serious note:
"CE engines are a technological anachronism no matter how you slice it--both environmentally and in terms of energy efficiency. so what you feel is based on irrational beliefs. the only reason hybrids are useful now is because we haven't yet built the infrastructure for plug-in electric vehicles to completely replace ICE vehicles. it's an intermediate phase. it would not make sense to have hybrids if electric propulsion did not have advantages over ICE propulsion.
but all forms of progress, whether technological, cultural, social, or political, there will be a strong rearguard reaction to overcome. therefore it's important to disseminate information and encourage people to take a rational approach to the issue rather than falling victim to knee-jerk responses based on ignorant reactionary attitudes. luckily there are companies out there working to dispel false negative perceptions of electric vehicles as a lot of people still associate environmentally-friendly with poor performance."
The only problem with the above argument/opinion, is that it does not address the profits of the 'big corporate' corporations.
I could be wrong here, but I see this as a fight between established systems/businesses/IP, and progress.
Do the profits and maintaining IP control counterbalance humanity?
I'm just asking! (ducks and covers)
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
Americans have this mentality of assuming that crashes are inevitable that's not shared in much of the rest of the world.
That's because most of them can't drive.
All they do is stomp on the brakes, locking them if they don't have ABS, and hope for the best.
I've seen it happen in front of me, and the rubber tracks you see at accident sites tell the same story. Almost always you have 4 locked tires heading straight to the crash site or spinning out of control.
I guess the percentage of folks who went to driving school and got any handling training is very low.
thegodmovie.com - watch it
Almost 10 years?
When I was a kid I bought this old book from one of those "old book sales" that was printed in 1977 called "How Things Don't Work"[1] and it was about bad and good designs. Quite a good book.
If I recall correctly they mentioned a toilet design just like the one shown in Popular Mechanics. So that's a design that must be more than 30 years old. I might go look for that book again, just to see how little designs have improved over 30 years.
The Japanese toilets are in a totally different league of their own - with puffs of air for drying, even sound effects.
My friend found this out the hard way when she was using one of those toilets. She had difficulty finding the "flush". She pressed one button/level and a puff of air came out, another and there was warm water for "cleansing", and so on, then she found a lever and there was a flushing noise, but no flushing water. She tried it again and same thing... Eventually after a while she found the real flush, and she asked someone what was that fake flush all about.
Turns out some Japanese people get embarassed at making certain sounds while doing the "toilet stuff" so they would flush to mask those embarassing sounds. This wastes water, so what some toilets have is a flush that just makes a sound and doesn't actually flush.
[1] Here's a review of that book: http://www.diemer.ca/Docs/Diemer-HowThingsDontWork-Review.htm
Don't believe me? Look at Europe. In order to encourage us to drive more fuel efficient cars, and to get the government some cash, they tax gas to the rate where in the UK its effectively $12 a gallon. Now if you had cars that could do 150mpg and some idiots are still in trucks and SUVs what would the right response of the government be? The answer is to up the tax to get people out of those SUVs and into cars that demand less foreign oil and don't destroy the environment.
Cheap Gas is a stupid idea on a planet that is warming, its cars like these that will help the sensible parts of the US Government environmental policy to push up the prices.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
Why do you need to take your whole family shopping? Can't you buy your Rice Krispies by yourself? ;-) And even if you needed to take the whole family, then you can just take two cars. Mom and kid in the Aptera; dad and kid in the other. The combined 150 mpg is still a LOT better than the average 20mpg SUV.
Very few people need to carry a Ford Living Room everywhere they go.
For those wanting four wheels, Volkswagen will soon have a 1L/100km (240mpg) car.
The government is not your daddy. Its purpose is not to raid middle-class neighbors' wallets and give it to you.
Not 300 mpg, it is 300 mpg + 8hr recharge. How much is the electricity costing you and polluting? Passing the buck to the power plant doesn't solve the problem. Some econazis get all in your face saying "I'm carbon neutral look at my electric car" etc etc, fail to realize they just pushed the carbon over to the power plant. Centralizing production makes it easier to control, but doesn't necessary mean that it is being controlled, aka China's electricity.
Buy card to get laid?
Save money on gas, drive to nevada, use savings to buy hooker.
No muss, no fuss.
First, I never implied a head of collision of any sort. No matter what the vehicle, the simple fact that a head on collision with a combined speed of over 60mph is not often walked away from simply because of the forces the body is exposed to. What I was trying to make a point of was the car's design. I see no bumpers or anything resembling a crumple zone that makes common collisions significantly safer in modern vehicles. This car could easily wedge itself under the back of a truck, decapitating the passengers for instance.
I would much rather drive a lightweight compact car, making 50-60MPG highway than risk being killed in such a contraption.
If sharing a song makes you a pirate, what do I have to share to be a ninja?
If you want to show how good an autovehicle performs in terms of ecology, please provide these numbers:
1. Kg of CO2 emitted to produce one
2. Kg of CO2 emitted to run one for 100 Km
3. Kg of CO2 emitted to fully dispose one
Anything else is just buzzword and advertisement!
Maybe Computers will never be as intelligent as Humans.
For sure they won't ever become so stupid. [VR-1988]
The mixture includes flocculants, which cause suspended solids, heavy metals and parasites to clump together. The resulting "floc" can then be filtered out with a cotton cloth. Time-released chlorine kills bacteria and viruses. Within 30 minutes, about a teaspoon of the powder can treat 2.5 gal. of water. "The visual improvement is dramatic," says Eric Mintz, chief of the CDC's diarrheal diseases and epidemiology section.
A flying car would not even compare to this, not even a flying car that gets 300 miles per gallon. Having grown up with Star Trek (original series) this too me is the closest to Star Trek I have seen. A powder to make water safe. Screw that silly looking three wheeler, this helps the world far more than any vehicle.
I was very surprised not to be able to find mention of it on Wikipedia, even under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_water_purification
It apparently never made it big in the news which is a disappointment, hopefully this "award" will give it its due
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
I'm curious - how do you fix a punctured wheel on an Aptera?
yeah right that's why, all Americans are just stupid. now who is being a fucking moron
Well, the speed and agility of my motorcycle _has_ allowed me to avoid quite a lot of crashes.
And although it also has "fuck all carry space", I appreciate the huge savings on fuel. In the case of my bike it's because I don't get stuck in traffic, but the result is the same.
I guess what you're saying is you'd like a SUV with 300mpg. Well yeah, me too I guess. I want it to fly, too.
Motorcycles are widely accepted as significantly less safe than other motor vehicles so I fail to see your point. Putting a roof on it simple means you have the same unsafe vehicle that can now be driven comfortably in the rain.
A counter; Why do people cry others are trying to control everything they do when some point out choices they are making can be considered less than safe?
If sharing a song makes you a pirate, what do I have to share to be a ninja?
Maybe you would like 'some extra apostrophe's to go with your extra wheel.
Oh nevermind, I 'see you already have 'some extra's
=)
Agreed. This car is way too impractical to ever see common use on American roads. Pit this versus a full size truck or even a semi and it has little chance. Honestly though, with the advances in TDI diesel engines and hybrid technologies, I feel the future is not in electric cars.
Well, nothing is going to go up against a semi and survive.
Semis are one of the 3 vehicles that always win: semis, buses, and trains.
"We need to get over this notion, that, for Apple to win... Microsoft must lose." - Steve Jobs, 1997
300mpg - and then they compare it to a Prius ...
The Prius can transport your whole family - this cannot
They quote the Prius as the exemplar of low drag coefficient - but most small cars have a lower drag coefficient than the prius, and better fuel economy and can still carry 4 people!
This car is very pretty and fuel efficient - but not a practical proposition for most people (and people who buy SUV's will never even consider it ...)
Puteulanus fenestra mortis
[Citation needed]
If you refer to this, it seats two and is hardly by any definition something that seats a whole family. (Not that you claimed that, but somehow it seemed implied) It'll be there in 2010 in limited numbers... Read: "expensive" (It says 20k€ to 30k€ in the wikipedia article)
I don't object with your post, just with that statement. We're far from there.
Also note that a 3L/100km car was in production for years but was scrapped because of low sales :-/
They really do need to come up with better metrics for hybrid cars, as it is always strikes me as crazy when they specify city mileage greater than highway mileage. Maybe mpg+wh, miles per gallon plus watt-hours, where watt-hours are the watt-hours in the battery at the beginning of the ride minus the watt-hours in the battery at the end of the drive. I guess the problem with this is it would require accurate battery charge measurement, which seems to have been an elusive to this point.
The other advantage to three wheelers is that they are classed as motorcycles. This gets them out of a huge number of laws that relate to automobiles.
This is not to say that they are inherently unsafe. There are laws related to things like headlight position and such that might be very hard to work around when trying to develop an ultra-efficient vehicle.
I would also guess that it may allow the manufacturer to avoid a lot of testing requirements that may resent an unreasonable barrier to entry for a small, or start up, manufacturer.
Technically, you're correct: if they did dodge it, there'd be no accident.
However if your point is that people never take evasive action (which could include stopping) to avoid a potential accident, then that's so wrong it's laughable.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I don't have the link, but in the literature or on the forums somewhere there's a curve of the "efficiency" of the hybrid. The curve is asymptotic at about 110-120mpg, which would be your gasoline-only efficiency. Even with gas prices coming down a bit, the plug-in portion is still a fantastic economic deal compared to gasoline. The 10kWh battery will get you nearly 80 miles at real highway speeds, that's about $0.75 in electricity for me. And compared to the 13mpg I get around town in my F150, it's quite a bonus. Of course, I don't have $30k to spend on one, and if I did they wouldn't sell one to me 'cause I don't live in CA. On top if it, it still wouldn't pay me to buy one for economic reasons - I spend $3000 a year in fuel, and about 25% of the miles really do require a more rugged vehicle. At 6% interest, it would take 40 years to break even.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
I agree this has a real slimey feel. GM is pushing EPA to change the rules to make this kind of misleading statement a standard rating for PHEVs so the can claim the volt gets 100mpg even though it is 40 miles electric + maybe 50 miles on a gallon of gas.
It does nothing to help the consumer and only confuses.
Having three wheels apparently means that it gets legally classified as a motorcycle so they don't have to meet all the same legal requirements cars do for emissions, crash tests, etc. (although they are doing car-type safety/crash tests anyway)
Please don't use "umm" or "err" or "erm".
Why do you need to take your whole family shopping?
Don't have children do you...
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"
- Charles Darwin
I'm sick of people thinking motorcycles are somehow more maneuverable than a car. I have been riding motorcycles for almost 30 years and I can tell you for a fact that a car is more maneuverable. A car can turn faster, brake faster and hold the road better because it has more contact area with the ground. The only thing the motorcycle has going for it is the small size which might let you avoid something without having to move as much. That doesn't mean it's more maneuverable though.
Have the editors not been to Japan? Even though toilet sinks are not in public bathrooms, they're a common installation in home bathrooms.
Even with my non-existent plumbing skills, it's not that difficult of a hack. Maybe this is a job for Joe . . .
Question, fine, but verify. The rear wheel contact surface is also a non-issue. If you want less rolling resistance but less traction, you use a thin, hard tire; if you want more traction and comfort with a slight fuel economy hit, use the thicker, softer tire. But know that in a front wheel drive, there will be a small difference in handling. If you are in a spin, though, a bit more contact surface on a single rear tire or two helps little. And a low center of gravity will trump a fourth wheel for rollover safety. Think SUVs. Your prejudice about the trike (1+2) three-wheeler is well founded; but not about the tadpole (2+1).
I know this is OT, but I can't help but wonder if your sig is serious:
White-space devices will kill over-the-air free television. Reserve channels 2-51 for TV only.
Mostly considering, in the US anyways, there won't be over the air TV anymore in a little bit here.
Mom and kid in the Aptera; dad and kid in the other. The combined 150 mpg is still a LOT better than the average 20mpg SUV.
Right, since they're going to burn the fuel to drive the 20mpg SUV they might as well take a second vehicle as well.
They'll burn more gas that way, but hey, at least they can brag that their combined average is over 100MPG!
I went to eat some animal crackers and the box said, "Do not eat if seal is broken." I opened the box and sure enough..
You just pick it up and carry it home.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
>>>it seats two and is hardly something that seats a whole family.
He never said it would. Re-read what he *actually* wrote: "For those wanting four wheels..." There's not one thing there that says anything about the VW 1L car holding an entire family. Is english not your first language? That might explain why you didn't understand what you read.
>>>It'll be there in 2010 in limited numbers...Read: "expensive"
The Volkswagen Lupo 3L (80mpg) car was also limited in number, but was still available for ~$20,000 Euro. Same applied to the limited-edition Honda Insight which cost just US$20,000. You shouldn't assume "limited numbers" means "expensive".
>>>Also note that a 3L/100km car [wikipedia.org] was in production for years but was scrapped because of low sales :-/
Boy you're a negative guy. The Lupo 3L was not scrapped; it was replaced with the Fox model! Duh. Same with the Honda Insight which is being replaced with an Insight II. Stop being such a downer.
With gasoline prices at $4.00 U.S. and $8.00 E.U., there's a market for cars that save on fueling costs.
FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
>>>in the US anyways, there won't be over the air TV anymore in a little bit here.
To quote Bugs Bunny: "What a maroon." Of course there's going to be over-the-air television!!! Why do you think the U.S. Congress is giving away *billions* in free converter box coupons ($40 each). Please don't post false information.
FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
The grandparent post was correct. The wife can go shopping for groceries, while the husband stays home and babysits.
Or they could take two separate 300mpg cars. There's no rule which says you "have" to take the whole family shopping, or they all have to ride in the same car. Stop clinging to superstitious, old-fashioned ideas. Think outside the box.
FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
As a bonus, this one looks amazing (saw one in person this summer): http://spyder.brp.com/
That car looks suspiciously like a motorcycle.
I agree though it certainly beats out the Type-1e in the looks department. I don't understand why new-tech people insist on making such horrendously ugly vehicles. If they actually made them look like traditional cars they may have a chance of catching on.
I get that the design helps them achieve 300mpg, but seriously, no one is going to drive a Type-1e on a highway. It looks like it'd crumple like tin foil.
> Volkswagen will soon have a 1L/100km (240mpg) car
They already have one as a technology demonstrator, they promise a production model soon:
http://www.motorauthority.com/vw-chairman-promises-1l100km-car-in-3-to-4-years.html
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/gw/vw1litre.htm
rant
As a Spyder owner, I can attest that it is a very stable vehicle. It has several safety features (warning: flash site) namely its VSS (Vehicle Stability System) that makes sure you can't/don't high side it like conventional trikes.
Its a first generation vehicle, but its been developed for around 10 years and minus a few minor complaints they totally hit a home run! I can confidently say that I am very happy with my purchase. But I must warn you, don't buy one unless you really like attention because everyone will come up to you and have a conversation.
When I have a kid, I want to put him in one of those strollers for twins and then run around the mall looking frantic.
The thing is to get along together, not just go buy something and get back.
Besides that, if you keep splitting people in many cars, you get a worst traffic.
Am I eval()? - http://www.monst3r.com.br
On a somewhat related note, I laughed this past Saturday as a Toyota Prius attempted to haul a two-wheel trailer (empty). It was traveling 22 mph in a 45 mph speed zone. When I came to a stretch of road that allowed me to safely pass, I looked over at the Prius, the driver mouthed his apologies, shrugging his shoulders as if to say "sorry, can't do any more".
So one parent can't go anywhere with both kids unless the other parent goes also, and what about families with three kids?
As for shopping, if the wife can't take the kids to the store during the day, she has to hire a baby sitter. Instead, taking the children shopping is an excellent teaching opportunity, so they can learn how to behave in public and how to shop within a budget just to name two.
Get a horse!
Can you use it to transport a family (2+2) to/from shopping?
I'm definitely into letting someone else do the hauling these days...
- Dairy delivery to my door (Oberweiss)
- Peapod delivery of Groceries
- Schwan's delivery for other tasty items. They have the best bacon.
Actually helps minimize the impulse buying in the store. Otherwise, you do need to be able to haul your family for many purposes. This car will be a great commuter so you can leave the mini-van home unless needed.
I love the sound of distortion in the morning -- webcommando
The actual reason for three wheeled vehicles is... the law. (surprise!)
Three wheelers are under the same category and safety standards as motorcycles.
Yes, motorcycles.
Add a fourth wheel... and now you're looking at federal crash tests, airbags, ABS, 2,500W stereo, crumple zones, etc.
Great quote from the great Mr. Colin Chapman (founder and soul of Lotus Cars):
Well, Morgan used to make a 3 wheel sports car, and they used to be able to lap Brooklands at over a ton (all power from a big twin bike engine).
The configuration's still available today - here's a video of an old Moggie and a Grinnall Scorpion being let out to play.
Pretty stable, no?
One swallow does not a fellatrix make
>>>Besides that, if you keep splitting people in many cars, you get a worst traffic.
Traffic jams have never killed anybody. Pollution has (made it difficult to breathe & increased lung cancer deaths). The first priority should be to reduce the pollution as much as possible by encouraging people to buy 100, 200, or 300 mile per gallon cars. Reduce the smog.
I have a 70mpg two-seat car, because 99.9% of the time I travel alone (to work or to the foodmart). On those rare 0.1% times I need to carry three or more people to the same destination, then we take two cars. It's no big deal, and the net reduction in *overall* pollution is FAR MORE than if I drove a 20mpg SUV every day.
I refuse to drive a Ford Living Room SUV, when I'm only carrying myself. It's stupid.
FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
"I guess the percentage of folks who went to driving school and got any handling training is very low."
BINGO! We have a winner! :)
They keep my buddies with rollbacks and wreckers in business.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
It's Fambro, not Ambro, and the typ-1e is electric. The typ-1h is the hybrid.
Yes, it is not my first language and if you read /my/ comment correctly, you'd see that I said that it seemed that he /implied/ it.
Meaning it's in the same price league as a BMW series 1, Audi A3, Volkswagen Golf... all of them who seat four people, have a trunk and with the appropriate Diesel engine do 5l/100km.
Which /I/ find extremely amusing because the Fox and the Lupo are exactly the same models! The names are different on different markets. Just like the "Jetta" used to be called "Bora" where I live. Funnily enough, the "Fox" doesn't have a "3L" version. Why is that? The Audi A2 was also supposed to have a very economic Diesel achieving 3l/100km. Where is the Audi A2? I tell you: they don't make it anymore because of... poor sales. Now we'll have to wait for the Audi A1 and hope that the promised quattro (electric on rear axle, cobustion on front axle) will deliver.
No shit? I never said anything else.... However the 1L eco-concept car of VW is going to be a tough sell. I don't see all that many Smart cars on the roads here (Central Europe).... Sure, they didn't have 1l/100km, but at least you could have your wife sitting next to you instead of behind you as in the 1L eco-concept.
I may be negative, but you're a fucking aggressive asshole.
Not totally, but I agree with you.
Traffic jams can improve pollution since a vehicle wastes way more fuel stopping-and-going in the jam; but unfortunately I don't have the numbers.
I'm doing my part running on Ethanol (converted a 2.0 litres Astra MK4) and walking to work.
Am I eval()? - http://www.monst3r.com.br
Well, it would be impressive if it didn't cost $27,000+ for a two-seater.
And if it weren't designed to be "comfortable" only for people shorter than I am. When someone says it's comfortable for someone up to 6'1", they really mean 5'10", in my experience. And even if they really meant 6'1", that's a bit shy of how long I am.
Basically, it's a nice tech-toy, of no practical value to your average person. Note that your "average person" doesn't have a lot of use for a car that you can't carry your family in, much less one that only goes ~120 miles.
And I have to wonder whether that 120 mile range they tout is with a driver, or with a driver, a full grown passenger, a small child, and a trunk full of groceries...
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Why do you need to take your whole family shopping? Can't you buy your Rice Krispies by yourself? ;-) And even if you needed to take the whole family, then you can just take two cars. Mom and kid in the Aptera; dad and kid in the other. The combined 150 mpg is still a LOT better than the average 20mpg SUV.
Very few people need to carry a Ford Living Room everywhere they go.
For those wanting four wheels, Volkswagen will soon have a 1L/100km (240mpg) car.
But it will take you 20+ seconds to reach 100km/hr
Look by 2010-2012 a lot of us won't use any gas. None. Why? We'll all be driving Chevy Volt type cars that use 100% electric for the first 40 miles. Since that covers 75% of commuters, it means those people that largely use a car for commuting and small trips will completely stop buying gasoline (ok, maybe 1 fill up a year).
Best of all its a 4-door standard size car.
So you can keep your 3 wheeling, unstable, unsafe George Jetson car. This time the big old car manufacturer has it right.
Actually, people are curious about the unusual so she might just be intrigued enough to get in. And now there is no room for her cock-blocking friends.
If you absolutely need more than 2+1 seating (i.e., you're only going to have one car and/or rarely have anyone in the household who travels by themselves or with one adult and one small child), then you're right; it's not for you. However, a huge portion of the American population is not in that situation. It's sad watching a hummer going down the freeway carrying only the driver. What a waste.
If you do need more than 2+1 seating, not only are there many other EVs coming out from other manufacturers in the next few years (although no other true electric hypercars that I've seen), but Aptera's next model, codenamed "Palomar", is to be a four-wheel, four seater. I'd expect it to be somewhat more expensive and probably ~30-40% less energy efficient, but hey, four seats. Of course, with the credit crisis, I imagine it might be a while before they can bring it to market.
Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
A two seater really is a non-starter for most people with families. It's not just old-fashioned ideas. Nobody is going to want to split up their family every time they want to drive somewhere. Many people could possibly use an efficient two-seater for solo driving, and then have another car for hauling the family. However, most people would rather have one car that does it all instead of the expense (and the space needs) of two.
Notice how their inspiration has even gone into Japan, with such marvelous automobile design that not even the Yugo could hold a candle to its impracticality.
The truth is none need to buy a new car to get better efficiency; get a Brown's Gas (aka an HHO) conversion kit for no more than USD 100 off eBay. Some hook into the car ignition system while others attach to the car battery with a remote switch to begin the water electrolysis process. 1 Gallon of water will expand into over 950,000 equivalent volumes of that gallon of dense water.
Or you could look into the Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter sold by a guy named Jeff Otto; it's a plasma-physics induced recycling of the fuel by using a replacement catalytic converter, and is even certified by many corporations that go by the name DEPARTMENT OF MOTOR VEHICLES. Brown's Gas and related HHO generation kits are not acceptable by DMV even though they are more efficient than other fields of generation inspired by the Gheet Carbeurator.
Old Citroens used to have covered rear wheels, to change them you just jack the car up and the wheel drops (relative to the car) enough for access. Looking at the Aptera the wheels are too deep for that, so I guess there must be access panels.
Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
It can move two adults and a kid, which accounts for a fair number of families. Indeed, that covers every family until they have a second child or the kid gets too big for the rear seat.
Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
trying to have sex in that thing!
...and a major cause of air pollution is the low-speed stop-and-go driving brought on by traffic jams. No matter what you're driving, it'll be more efficient at a constant speed. It's hard to maintain a constant speed, though, when the roads are inadequate for the traffic they need to carry.
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
Sorry, but "Family Car" assumes room for at least 4 adults.
When you buy a car you expect it to fit your family's needs for more than just a year or two.
No sig for the moment.
Figure out the distribution losses and how to quickly refuel an electric car with the same efficiency and safety of refueling an ICE powered vehicle, and you have a point.
Internal combustion isn't an anachronism. An anachronism would be a horse drawn carriage. An ICE is the best solution to ALL parts of the problems of transportation as a whole. There's more than just transferring power to the wheels in the equation. Ignoring variables is not the way to get things running mainstream.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
Only if you buy a family car in the first place. The Aptera isn't marketed as a family car, so your concern about expectations not being met only applies to idiots.
Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
by that logic we should all drive tanks so that when we get in accidents our cars survive but we die (crumple zones are designed so that the car absorb the energy from a collision rather than passengers).
Crumple zones are only effective if one plastic car is hitting another. I was hit by a Kia in my 1968 Mustang. I wasn't wearing a seatbelt, wouldn't have done me any good anyway, I only have lap belts. He had seat belts and airbags and he was dinged up, but I wasn't. His car was totaled and mine had about $1,400.00 in repair costs. He was going between 40-50mph and hit the drivers side of my front end (right under the bumper). His car is in a junkyard now, I still drive mine everyday. I guess his crumple zone was the entire car, cause the whole front end was "crumpled".
Where "average person" excludes single people, couples with one small child and couples with no children (or no children living with them) - as a rough guess, you've excluded half the car buying public from you definition of "average person".
Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
As ever, in the UK we're more than 20 years ahead of you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecsEAXNlfv0
Michael Reed, freelance tech writer.
Semis are one of the 3 vehicles that always win: semis, buses, and trains.
It's actually 4 if you count Airwolf.
Since it is one of the most famous engineering schools in the world, and this is news for nerds, it would be nice if Slashdot could spell Caltech's name correctly.
http://styleguide.caltech.edu/wordmark
Sounds like the crumple zones worked as they are supposed to. They're supposed to, well, crumple, absorbing the impact, sacrificing the car while protecting the occupants of the car from injury.
Well that was just the most obvious example. I understand that such a vehicle would be an excellent commuter but I rarely drive our family car to work (yes I use the bus/train/bike solution depending on whether and how I feel that day) still I see plenty of uses for a family car at least as long as the kids live with us. As I am not going to buy a second car (I see no need) that is pretty much it for me. I am sure there are potential customers for such product and we need it for making the technologies used cheaper and more acceptable. Till this happens I still use my little frog.
As for buying remotely I understand people that promote such things, I see such services limited in many ways however: to centers of big cities, in choice and quality - I cook myself and after years of painful experiences I would not buy a single bean in this way.
The way I see it we have a long way till all this will get widely used.
Spoken like a true single-person with no kids. It's generally frowned upon to leave the little ones unsupervised. From 8-12 years of age you have a window where they might do okay by themselves, but after 12/puberty it's often poor wisdom to leave them unsupervised for other reasons.
So you often need to take them shopping for groceries with you.
As for spending all the cash for two cars rather than taking the hit in mpg, you should really think about the cost per year that fuel represents and how many years you'd need to "save" via higher mpg to justify another car. Back of the envelope for my 16mph SUV to a 300mpg vehicle would be... at least ten years to justify that second $30K car. Twenty if you consider that I'll only get half the savings because I'll be driving two of them.
Which brings up the point of Passenger Miles Per Gallon (pmpg) as a much better way to make comparisons. The 16mpg SUV I mentioned is our only car. It seats eight people. We have seven in our family. Driving our family around nets us 112 pmpg. While a two seater getting 300mpg gets 600pmpg, it's a 6:1 ratio compared to the assumed 19:1 implied by the EPA sticker.
Financially, I'd far rather have one car to buy, maintain, and fuel than a fleet of four cars to transport my family around. Practically, lacking four licensed drivers in our household, we kinda need to have one big car rather than multiple smaller ones. Quite often, one of the parents is busy working and the other parent has to drive everyone else somewhere. Emotionally, I enjoy the company of my wife and kids when we drive somewhere together... while we could trade kids between two or more cars, I would never be able to drive with my wife. The multi-car approach seems kinda idiotic when you start thinking about the impact, but it tends to be the suggestion from those who have never felt the negative effects of their ideology.
These opinions guaranteed or your money back.
Wow, at last a modern car that doesn't look stupid! Very nice, and intelligently designed too (if you'll pardon the phrase :-)
Co-operation beats competition
I see no bumpers or anything resembling a crumple zone that makes common collisions significantly safer in modern vehicles. This car could easily wedge itself under the back of a truck, decapitating the passengers for instance.
I would much rather drive a lightweight compact car, making 50-60MPG highway than risk being killed in such a contraption.
Next time read... It has a space frame, and the entire front end is a boxed in crumple zone designed to go under the car lifting it over the impact. It also has a space frame enclosing the cabin with a ton of airbags. It actually looks to be considerably safer than most of the under $20k econobox set.
But I can't have one. Air conditioning in Houston is Not and option in my car! And the concept of A/C for them is a solar powered exhaust fan? No thanks...
Or, for that matter, most families have 2 cars. Why should mom and dad both drive a land yacht to work every day? If they instead own one land yacht for family outings and one two seater for work commutes they do better on average for gas in a week and still have a family car.
In most families, both parents commute to work so they have to have two cars anyway. They don't BOTH have to drive a land yacht to work, why not have a two seater and a family car? Whoever has the longest commute or the most difficult parking can commute in the two seater.
I am 2505 on the Aptera list for future owners. I liked the Carver One, also repacked as the VentureOne in Los Angeles, another 3 wheeler. The Carver One uses a single front wheel but incorporates the leaning technology, where the rear wheel remain fixed. It moves as a motorcycle would and is very stable, even in a spin out. Aptera may or may not be as stable as most 4 wheelers, but for those of us who have ridden motorcycles for mpg, Aptera offers a warmer, safer 7 drier ride while increasing the mpg. A Toyata Prius is roughly the same price. I drive a Ford Eanger pickup for work related business and to the reverse extreme, a 1996 Geo Metro, 3 cylinder, with a 5 speed. The 60 mpg makes the Geo much cheaper than the traditional hybrids. Last month or in 30 days I drove 5300 miles and ignoring the image side of the Aptera, the mileage or fuel economy justifies my motivations to own one. A Geo is no safer, even with Air Bags, thus it is all comparable to what you drive now. A $500. non binding, 100% refundable deposit gets you on the Aptera list. That $500. in the bank might pull 2% in short term interest or make you $10. in a year. A statement about shaping the future for $10. is the cheapest option the GO GREEN activist will ever get and who knows, they may even follow through and buy one? Take a chance or be content with your gas guzzlers! fincenMIB