Passport Required To Buy Mobile Phones In the UK

David Gerard points out a Times Online story that says: "Everyone [in the UK] who buys a mobile telephone will be forced to register their identity on a national database under government plans to extend massively the powers of state surveillance. Phone buyers would have to present a passport or other official form of identification at the point of purchase. Privacy campaigners fear it marks the latest government move to create a surveillance society. A compulsory national register for the owners of all 72m mobile phones in Britain would be part of a much bigger database to combat terrorism and crime. Whitehall officials have raised the idea of a register containing the names and addresses of everyone who buys a phone in recent talks with Vodafone and other telephone companies, insiders say." We've recently discussed other methods the UK government is using to keep track of people within its borders, such as ID cards for foreigners and comprehensive email surveillance.

Comments

no privacy here, no privacy there

[v1]

Are the USA and the UK in some sort of competition to see who can do the more thorough job of obliterating their citizens' rights to privacy?

Lately there's been a morbid tit-for-tat article exchange going on here on slash, like the USA and UK are trying to outdo one another. Just when you think the USA or UK is as bad as it gets, there's a reply.

Re:no privacy here, no privacy there

[nomadic]

Are the USA and the UK in some sort of competition to see who can do the more thorough job of obliterating their citizens' rights to privacy?

The UK has been easily winning that for years. As bad as the US has gotten, the UK is consistently worse.

Re:no privacy here, no privacy there

[OriginalArlen]

No need to appeal to maliciousness to explain that which can easily be explained by incompetence (the reciprocal of "cockup over conspiracy".) It's a combination of simple-minded headline grabbing by unprincipled politicians (which isn't actually ALL of them, quite yet), plus an infuriatingly vacuous, knee-jerk, reactionary tabloid press which sets the agenda for all mainstream political debate. It's depressing, pathetic, outrageous.

However as a long-time observer of the UK domestic political scene over the last thirty years or so, I see a lot of straws in the wind suggesting that the tide is turning (pardon the mixed metaphors.) When the shadow Home Secretary resigned to protest a particular high profile issue (42 days in jail without charges), and the "surveillance state" issues in general (CCTV, ID cards, criminal record checks, ubiquitous state databases on the population, security theatre in response to 9/11, etc etc) you KNOW something's up. I noticed that Times story on their front page; it's bagged up so I could only read a couple of lines above the fold, but they managed to get "raising fears amongst privacy campaigners of the surveillance state" in there. Interestingly, a lot of this stuff is actually being picked up by the very same reactionary tabloids that howled about paedophiles, immigrants, crime, terrorism and so on, as a stick to beat the Labour government with! This strikes me as beautifully poetic justice. Brown's picked up a short-term lift on account of how he does look good wearing a dark tie and a solemn expression whilst appearing to save the world from economic catastrophe. However in six months' time, when it becomes apparent that avoiding catastrophe has not meant avoiding 2.5 or 3 million unemployed, that's going to be painted as "rescuing the fat cats". (Don't get me started on the sickening hypocrisy with which the "kick-a-banker" movement has got going over the last couple of months... )

Re:no privacy here, no privacy there

[Skreems]

Both countries do indeed have rich and deep histories of democratic values, but the average citizen in either country couldn't tell you the first thing about that history. They can recite who won the last 5 seasons of Survivor, and the last celebrity to pull a Basic Instinct while getting out of a taxi, but ask any real question (do we have a state religion? when was "In God We Trust" added to our money? what is the 4th amendment, and why is it important?) and you're likely to be met with either a blank stare, or some disgustingly ill-informed and incorrect answer.

It's sort of an open question as to WHY this has happened, whether there are people actively trying to promote a strain of proud anti-intellectualism or whether it's just a natural progression, but the end result is that not enough people understand or care about these rights to know and care when they're taken away.

Re:It's always been required...

[sakdoctor]

1. Buy a PAYG phone
2. Don't bother registering it
3. Buy top-ups using cash
4. Anonymity

Irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. The most powerful vote you have is indeed to leave.

Re:It's always been required...

[91degrees]

They're talking about pre-pay phones.

As a result, terrorists are going to run up some hefty roaming charges as they buy foreign pre-pay phones, or just stolen/cloned ones.

Now on to my real response.

[AndGodSed]

Someone once asked a while ago how much freedom will we be willing to surrender for a false sense of security.

It seems that in the US and UK this very scenario is playing itself out and all we can do is sit, horrified and watch in spite of ourselves.

It's like sitting in the passenger seat of a car that is being driven by a lunatic - you squint your eyes closed but keep peeking because you know what is bound to happen, but you cant help but look and hope you will be somehow wrong.

And safe.

One thing proponents of all this gathering of data on people keep forgetting is that data gets lost, stolen or otherwise compromised on a daily basis.

The UK is a shining example of data getting lost.

How long before a terrorist hacker steals the info and spoofs a phonecall to a bomb that is detonated via cellphone?

Suddenly the possibilities of being wrongly implemented in a terrorist plot is so much more possible.

This is a bad idea all around.

I am glad that I do not live in the US or the UK - if my country implements this kind of policy I would start browsing using the TOR network, set up my own mailserver to do direct relay and eventually fall back on using older means of communication - snail mail and pretty much nothing else.

Who is it that said "As soon as we change our way of living the terrorists have won"?

I tell you now - terrorists are holding the citizens of the US and the UK captive via proxy, and the proxy is ironically the very governments they are battling.

They win on all fronts at this moment.

Re:It's always been required...

[Bert64]

Criminals will go back to using payphones and face to face meetings to discuss their criminal activities.
And stealing phones, since they're already criminals having to steal a phone isn't much of a deterrent.

Not a handbook!

[hacker]

Someone needs to tell the PM in England that Orewell's book 1984 was never meant to be a handbook on how to run a country. It was intended to be a warning against such control.

Sigh.. it's a slippery slope until those in the US begin looking at these with genuine interest, with the intent to deploy these measures within our own borders.

Cell phones and terrorists

[qbzzt]

However, if you're planning $LARGE_SPECTACULAR_JIHADIST_ATTACK, and you steal a phone, it makes you a little more likely to be caught/fail.

You don't. You get a sympathizer to buy one for you, and then claim it was stolen. Enough phones are stolen anyway that this won't look suspicious.

Open societies are going to be vulnerable to terrorism. We can accept that, give up our freedoms, or be so scary nobody will want to mess with us.

Re:Cell phones and terrorists

[ATMD]

> Open societies are going to be vulnerable to terrorism.

Mod parent up, this is the most insightful thing I've seen on Slashdot in a good while. When you scale that familiar security/convenience trade-off up to national governments, it morphs into security/civil liberties. Since absolute security can never be achieved, (be it for computer or country), the march towards that end of the spectrum must be halted before citizens of the Western world have no more freedom than denizens of 1970s Cambodia.

Re:Cell phones and terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

"Open societies are going to be vulnerable to terrorism. We can accept that, give up our freedoms, or be so scary nobody will want to mess with us."

That is admitting our country is fearful and so we create a police state to suppress anyone who we fear. Yet we will still then have to live in fear. Its better to live without fear.

Also what happens if the ones in power arrogantly decide to do something people disagree with?. In such a police state, the ones in power will use and abuse their powers, to force their point of view, on to everyone.

This already keeps happening in the UK. E.g. They used anti-terror laws against Iceland, who are not at all terrorists. The ones in power have at times behaved with incredible arrogance. Their views are so often these days, utterly self righteous. They show narcissistic behaviour and contempt for anyone who disagrees with them, yet you want us to just keep giving them all more power. Freedom and democracy are constantly undermined by a minority of people in power, for their own gain. That is why democracy has to be defended. People who undermine democracy, are by definition, lacking empathy towards others. You want to let these people dictate terms to you? ... well you will be, if you give in to fear.

The UK has fought two world wars to rid the world of narcissistic totalitarian dictators. Yet it looks like the lessons of history have not been learned.

Re:Cell phones and terrorists

[AmiMoJo]

Open societies are going to be vulnerable to terrorism.

Exactly. We make this loss of life to benefit judgement all the time. We sent troops overseas, knowing some will die but judging it a worthwhile sacrifice. People die in road accidents, but not enough to make us want to ban cars.

In London, 52 people died in the 7/7 attacks. Unlike the examples I gave, that was a one-off event, not a yearly loss. Even in 11/9, only around 3,000 people died compared to over 11,000 a year from gun crime in the US, and again it was a one-off event. There is simply no way to argue that terrorism is deadly enough to warrant taking away fundamental freedoms from millions of innocent citizens.

Re:It's always been required...

[legirons]

When signing up for a new mobile phone contract, you're pretty much asked for two forms of identifications, such as a driving license, passport, utility bills, etc. so this is nothing new.

That's because the mobile phone contract will be collecting money from you for the next 2 years and if you disappear they lose out so they want to know who you are.

By contrast, you can buy a SIM card with cash with nobody asking who you are (unless the shop is trying its chances at getting an address for their spam mail) because you pay in advance therefore you don't owe any further money to the shop, therefore they don't need to know who you are.

So...

(1) THIS *IS* NEW (contrary to your attempts to deny it by comparison with what private companies choose to do when they give you credit)

(2) Why in every civil-liberties story is there always someone to pop-up with a justification based on government's previous bad behaviour?

* "this isn't so much worse than what they have already" - one step at a time

* "they were already doing that but illegally, so this isn't new"

* "some other government is already doing this, so it isn't new"

* "the other political party agrees with them, so anyone who complains is a hypocrite"

* "the government did this before [during a war], so it isn't new"

Just because something resembles authoritarian behaviour of the past doesn't mean it should be accepted, quite the opposite.

Typewriters

[AliasMarlowe]

Anyone remember when typewriters had to be registered in several Eastern European countries? Being mechanical devices, each had its own unique signature (character shapes, weights, and so forth). The idea was to be able to track the origin of unapproved newsletters etc. which were typically produced via typewriter and stencil or carbon paper. This was all rendered irrelevant by the arrival of PC-based communications (a rear-guard action was fought over printers, faxes, and so forth).

Looks like the UK has just revised those old Soviet-era laws for current technology. Anonymous communication must be considered to be really subversive in the UK.

Re:useless idea that costs us all

[FailedTheTuringTest]

When it finally happens it will be just another argument for the electronic chip identity cards that the UK government has been wanting to introduce.

The government, and businesses, will say: it would be so much simpler and more efficient if we had a unified ID standard. After all, you need to show ID to get a phone <strawman>(and Internet access, and airline, train, and coach tickets, and to vote, and to get health care or buy medicines at a pharmacy, and to stay at a hotel)</strawman> and everyone needs that!

The first people to get these ID cards, starting next month, will be foreign students and foreign spouses. Gradually they will be rolled out to more categories of foreigners.

Some terrorists are more equal than others

[unlametheweak]

I'm not understanding why Britain wants to be so much like North Korea. Britain is trying to create terror in its own civilian population and yet claims to be fighting against terrorism. There's something not right here.

This is just getting depressing

[_Shad0w_]

Is there an English speaking country left on this bloody planet which has a sane government? I'm about ready to vote with my feet and quit the UK, assuming I can find anyone stupid enough to take me.