Recovering Moldy Electronics?

cookiej writes "We just completed having our basement gutted and our house decontaminated from mold. The finished basement is gone, my office floor has been removed as well as 24' of drywall around the base of the room. So, we had a full home theater downstairs along with a couple of computers in the electronics closet that were completely immersed (rainwater, not sewage). We moved them to a sheltered area outside and covered them with a plastic tarp. Since the electronics were off when the water hit them, 1) do I have a chance of recovering them? 2) If so, is there a way to clean them with some sort of liquid bath that would not damage the electronics? and 3) I don't want to bring moldy pieces back in the clean house. How could I decontaminate the electronics themselves, pre-bath? Not looking to save the speakers, just the amp, DirecTV box, video switch, etc. Thanks for any help, here, Slashdot." Read on for more details of this reader's plight.
Early last month, we had about 10" of rain in the course of two hours. Many houses in our neighborhood were damaged. We had rainwater coming in our back door and cascading down the basement steps. We have two sump pumps that weren't keeping up (and of course, no battery backup) and as the water rose in the basement, it was getting dangerously close to the breaker panel. So I made the hard decision to shut down the main power and we got the hell out.

The water reached about 6' in the basement before it drained out. Once we got back, we could not move fast enough to get all the debris out before mold set in and boy did it.

Since we are not in a flood plain, our insurance for this is woefully inadequate. While I would love to just go out and buy replacements, there are far more pressing things to re-buy (washer/dryer, furnace, water heater, etc.) and if there is a chance I can salvage some of this it might be a nice change of luck.

Comments

There is hope

[dreamchaser]

If they were not plugged in they can be dried out and probably used again. I've never seen mold growing on electronics, but if you have mold/mildew you can wash them with a mild bleach/water solution. After they are clean flush them with distilled water and let them dry completely.

Re:There is hope

[mrbene]

"Completely" is the key phrase. Damage to electronics due to water is actually due to unexpected circuits forming and burning out components.

So if it looks dry, wait another couple of days.

Re:There is hope

[Anonymous Coward]

Bleach (chlorine) is a very bad idea. It will oxidize the metals very badly. Chlorine is incredibly corrosive.

Better to use a pure non-oil based solvent such as denatured alcohol (pure alcohol). Remember, nothing oil based like acetone or gasoline. Rubbing alcohol contains a lot of water so it's not best either.

Re:There is hope

[mea_culpa]

I use MG Chemicals Super Wash Cat# 406B-425G for cleaning most PCBs. The important thing to consider is if the electronics are new enough and worth saving it probably as BGA components that water will lurk under for weeks. This chemical can has 3 power settings and setting it to HI with the straw will push the residual water out. I have recovered many water soaked laptops using this and failing to get under the BGAs will lead to failure later on.

$15 per can at your local Fry's

Re:There is hope

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, you want to do a little more than "completely". If you use a bleach/water solution as suggested, the little drops will leave deposits of conductive material. RINSE thoroughly with distilled water, and use a hair dryer to blow as much of the distilled water off as possible. Any deposit left from water evaporating is going to kill whatever electronics you own when you plug them in.

As a preventive measure, once it's all clean and squeaky like that, maybe spray a coat of polyurethane or some other waterproofing stuff that's non-conductive onto all parts that could conduct and aren't supposed to.

Good luck!

Re:There is hope

[capnkr]

Let me add to these other ideas a product named "Corrosion Block" (for the marine industry) and/or "ACF 50" (for aviation). Despite the different names, the product itself is the exact same thing, and works wonders on electronics that have been, or will be getting, wet. You can find it in most boating stores. Spray on a thin film, clean the electronics, let them dry thoroughly. A little goes a long way. The only caveat is that due to its ability/nature to "creep" over time (a good thing, it ensures even coverage), you want to use it sparingly around LCD displays so that it doesn't get inside. Living on a boat, I have had plenty of opportunity (too much!) to do what it is that you are having to do. :) Good luck!

Re:There is hope

[pushing-robot]

How the hell does water get *under* a BGA? The surface tension should keep it out.
The gap is tiny. Fractions of a millimeter.

How the hell does water get *into* a sponge? The surface tension should keep it out. The holes are tiny. Fractions of a millimeter.

Re:There is hope

[capnkr]

Oops, should have included a link:

http://www.nocorrosion.com/corrosion-control.htm

Re:There is hope

[supernova_hq]

Actually, I've found one of the best things to use is desiccant. It will provide an absolute zero moisture environment. Simply put some in the bottom of a bucket, then a layer of paper towel, then the electronics.

If you want to re-use the desiccant you can put it in the oven. When it comes out, it will be one piece (no longer powder), but you can break it up pretty easily (like chalk).

Re:There is hope

[teaserX]

"...with 50/50 bleach and water mix"
There's where you went wrong. A bleach solution of 200ppm (parts per million) is sufficient to kill molds,yeasts, and any kind of odor causing bacteria. It's unlikely to have any affect on metals if rinsed. It's even safe to drink if you don't over do it. A 50/50 mix is used specifically for its oxidizing properties. Like making your undies *really* white.

Re:There is hope

[deek]

It is called Capillary Action my friend. That surface tension you were talking about, actually causes the water to be sucked into small gaps like this. It only works if the attraction between water molecules is less than the attraction between water and external material.

Re:There is hope

[idontgno]

Denatured alcohol is mostly isopropyl

Well, no, last I looked it was mostly ethyl (i.e., neutral grain spirits, i.e. yum)... Rubbing alch is isopropyl.

with methanol added to make it undrinkable

Isopropanol doesn't need much help in that category.

rubbing alcohol

[SirusTV]

Rubbing alcohol is your friend. as close to 100% as you can get. Use an old toothbrush and rubbing alcohol right on the circuit boards. I've saved routers, videocards, motherboars with this method. Acetone works too but can melt some plastics and ruin paint and rubbing alcohol can be gotten at any local grocery store.

Distilled water is your freind

[crowtc]

I've had a lot of luck cleaning mold and other contaminants from electronics by disassembling the item as completely as possible, cleaning each peace with a gentle liquid cleanser of some kind (i.e. Windex) and a soft brush, then rinsing it thoroughly with distilled water.

I was recently able to recover a number of computers that had been in a fire and had been sprayed with water from a fire hose. They were a mess, but so far they all work (10 months and counting)

Electronic baths

[WarJolt]

Water can be used to clean electronics in manufacturing processes. Most electronic components will not be damaged by water. Make sure you get all the dirt and grim out.

1.Don't plug it yet.

2. Take all electronics completely apart. Look for damage or corrosion.

3. Remove every battery.

4. Flush it out with distilled water.

5. Use electronic cleaner or alcohol(not the stuff you drink) to remove any mineral deposits.

6. Dry off with paper towel.

7. Let it dry completely. If you have any doubts wait till it's completely dry.

8. Plug it in and cross your fingers.

They're cleanable.

[evanbd]

Start with a rinse with distilled water. There's very little in electronics that gets hurt by water anyway -- the issues are with it shorting out, or longer term, corrosion. You'll want to open all the cases to do this, and then ideally blow them dry with a compressed air nozzle. Letting it evaporate will just redeposit all the crud you cleaned off.

Then rinse with alcohol, and again blow it off rather than letting it dry. At this point, if it looks clean it is, as far as the electronics are concerned. I imagine the same is true from a mold standpoint, but you probably know more about that than I do.

If things are being really stubborn, an ultrasonic cleaning bath in alcohol is remarkably effective (and completely safe for the electronics). 5-10 minutes should be plenty. I don't know off hand where to find a large one cheaply, though -- that may take some investigation. If you can't borrow one, I'd just take some warm soapy water and a toothbrush and work at it by hand (and then repeat the distilled water and alcohol rinses to remove any soap and such).

If any of these things have moving parts (eg DVD player) they'll be more difficult. None of this will hurt anything, but if there are any gears that are supposed to be greased this will remove that. Some rubber in pulleys and such might not like the alcohol. But, most modern cheap moving parts are unlubricated nylon, so there isn't likely to be an issue. Cooling fans are usually unlubricated, either with a plain nylon bearing or ball bearings, and so should be ok with this cleaning treatment.

Similarly, hard drives are almost certainly a lost cause. I'd try powering them up, but if they've been underwater then the water likely got in through the pressure equalization holes. I wouldn't clean them (wipe down the outside with a damp sponge, but nothing more aggressive) -- just hope for the best and expect them to have died.

Good luck, and may I suggest you invest in a more serious pump?

Re:The home theater all got wet?

[Ritchie70]

One of the ugly little things about homeowner's insurance (at least in the US) is that it, by default, does not cover damage due to flooding.

Many people who don't live in an area where floods are a real likelihood don't buy the extra flood insurance, which is probably the case here ("Since we are not in a flood plain, our insurance for this is woefully inadequate.")

I learned the hard way a year or two ago exactly what "flood" means in insurance terms. It includes a flooded basement due to a failed sump pump. Fortunately in my case, the only loss was some 20-year-old carpet.

So here's my little PSA: Even if you don't live somewhere that can really "flood" in a traditional sense, buy flood insurance if you have a basement. At least the minimal "get the mold out" insurance.

Re:Corrosion is inevitable.

[Jake73]

Look for a product called Corrosion X.

It's somewhat like WD-40. It is non-conductive and can be sprayed directly on electronics. It forms a hydrophobic barrier between the electronics and the elements and may help.

It is typically used as a preventative. Often used in the aviation market to protect wing/fuselage interiors, it is also sprayed directly on avionics to reduce corrosion.

It's cheap and is worth a shot.

Re:The home theater all got wet?

[cookiej]

You had water up to the celing to get your projector and all the gear in the rack as well? Holy crap how about replacing the electrical panels as well as the furnace, ac and other things forst..

If you re-read the original post, you'll see that those things are of course on our list. We had the electrical panel dried out, taken apart and inspected by an electrician.
The water didn't actually reach the ceiling. It got up to about 6' which was close to (like within 3-4 inches) the bulk of my networking equipment (router, one of my UPSes, Apple Airport and the cable modem) but just missed.

Or are you calling a best buy TV and stereo a "home theater" if you did not have a projector, screen sound control on the walls, and a real integrated sound system you did not have a "home theater".

I find it cute when people call their TV and cheapie stereo a home theater.

P.S. if your surround sound decoder cost less than $3500.00 it's a cheapie toy.

Well, I've been upgrading parts here and there over the years. We had a Zektor HDMI switcher that swapped between the computers, the PS3 and the DirecTV. Had a Slingbox pro that piped stuff upstairs through the 1GB network. An older Panasonic AE700U projector projecting on a home-built 102" screen. Truly, the amp was a cheapie but the speakers were klipsch and the sub was an old NHT Sub-One. I had a Philips Pronto that I used to control the DirecTV, lights and the switcher, but no in-wall controls, so I guess it doesn't meet your criteria for a "true" home theater. *eyerolls*

Also, why waste your time, simply collect on your insurance and buy all new. You had homeowners insurance right?

Yes, of course. However if you read your fine print, you'll see that you can't buy flood insurance in the US from your insurance company unless you are in a flood plain (this is what I was told when I asked about it awhile back). If you want to get flood insurance, you need to get it through a federal program. Again, re-read the original post.

Re:Rubbing Alchohol

[NekoXP]

You can get some pretty good 99% isopropyl from any good pharmacy (ask for it) or computer store (I get mine from Altex, it's $8 a bottle..). While it's good for cleaning things like keyboards (because it'll cut through grease like a hot knife through butter) it does have some nasty side effects like being able to etch the anti-reflective coating off LCD panels, taking the silkscreening off of PCBs etc. :)

It shouldn't really damage tin solder or chip packages but who knows. You're probably better off with distilled water and bleach for mold. Maybe give it a wash with isopropyl afterwards, but use the 50-70% cheap stuff. The idea is that isopropyl is a solvent - therefore things will dissolve in it including all the crud. But too strong a solvent and you'll eat into the PCB and any components that aren't up to it.

Re:Rubbing Alchohol

[networkBoy]

We use CMOS grade IPA (95% Rubbing alcohol) to clean boards all the time. Works a treat.

Buy a couple gallons from a chem supply company and a handful of *hogs hair* brushes (not metal brushes, obviously, and not nylon, not so obviously)

If you can't order from a supply company, then you will spend more, but get either 99% IPA or 190 proof everclear from the drugstore and soft bristle toothbrushes. Go to town, be sure to lightly soak the board under components to flush out residual water.

Bake cleaned boards under some 60-100 watt desk lights for a day or two (close enough to feel that the boards get warm) or in your oven at 110deg C for about 90 minutes (door open).
-nB

bleach and mold - a summary of suggestions

[arete]

I've done this too, but not as much as the parent, I'm sure!

I personally think mold is insidious and terrible, so I'd prioritize getting rid of mold over saving the electronics - but that doesn't mean I wouldn't try. (I rather imagine that most of the boater's stuff has to ALREADY be mold resistant, which does help stop the spread of mold.)

So I definitely recommend the mild bleach solution. This is increasing the death rate of the mold, but at the cost of reducing the life of your electronics. Since these things were submerged in water, ideally I'd recommend submerging them in a mild bleach solution for perhaps 20 min - ideally rotate/shake them a couple times during this bath.

If something has a ton of mold on it, you may want to actually WASH this - perhaps with mild soap or mild bleach, and scrubbing until there isn't a big pile of mold. Or it might be enough to let it soak longer (but with more corrosion) and shake it more.

Then to get RID of the bleach, I'd rinse them with two baths. (Because the first bath becomes bleachy just by the presence of the bleachy item you're rinsing.) In each case I'd give it some time to soak (~20 min) but esp in the first rinse, to make sure it gets all the bleach into solution.

Tap water is probably fine for the first one, but use distilled water for the second. After a couple items you should replace the second bath - and you might as well replace the first-bath with the water you just stopped using for the second bath.

Then I'd make sure they were quite dry as fast as possible, so any mold spores the bleach missed doesn't regrow on the damp you just created. The easiest way to do this is baking. 120 is pretty safe - most electronics can handle 140+ without a problem... the sensitive interior components get really hot while running, so the ones you're worried about damaging are usually the outside plastics.

40 min on one side (including getting it up to temp) and 20 min upside down is probably enough to stop further mold growth. I'd give them hours in the oven or days sitting before I turned them on, though.

Assuming you have a big pile of stuff to do this to, and 3 large buckets, and an oven as big as all 3 buckets combined, I've just described a 5 step assembly line process, where every 20 minutes you can move something ahead one step.

For smaller items, or ones you're not taking apart, the last bath could be rubbing alcohol, which would make it dry much faster. But in volume it's considerably more expensive; even distilled H20 is only a dollar a gallon.

You can do all the above things as a wash instead of a bath, IF you can effectively get to all the surfaces...

Spraying on a nonconductive corrosion resistor (like the above mentioned products seem to be) sounds like it would tend to extend the life of the device; it might also seal in any remaining mold spores, which I'd consider to be a good thing - but I'd still do a bleach-bath first to kill as much as you can.

It's a lot of work.