Motorola Moving to Android, Windows Mobile for Smartphones

nerdyH writes "Motorola will ditch its MotoMAGX Linux stack and UIQ Symbian stack in favor of Google's Android Linux/Java stack and Windows Mobile 6.5 and 7, it announced today. The news comes after five years selling millions of Linux phones in Asia, and after a year during which many of Motorola's top US phones used the homegrown Linux stack. Motorola's current Linux phones in the US include the RAZR2 v8, E8, EM30, U9, ZN4, and ZN5." This also comes alongside news that Motorola's financial hardships are causing them to cut 3,000 jobs. It also puts into perspective their recent plans to hire hundreds of Android developers.

Comments

Let's hope they come with better software

[plover]

Maybe this means they'll finally deliver a non-buggy app suite. I think Motorola has been suffering because of the quality of their software. I have had very few problems with the hardware I've owned that weren't software based. (I don't blame Motorola for the broken hinge on my son's RAZR.) I like that they have adopted many standards, such as mini-USB connectors on every device that are used for both data and charging, they've been a big supporter of the Bluetooth SIG, and their attempt to go with Linux (even though they kind of went off on their own with MotoMAGX.) I even bought a Z6 from them earlier this year for geeky reasons: the Linux OS and the fact that they sell them unlocked directly to consumers.

I hope that they do survive their current turmoil, and an Android stack is pretty exciting (even though it's a year late) because that promises a large suite of apps.

Re:Let's hope they come with better software

[glebd]

Unfortunately, Motorola phones seem to suck in quite a platform-independent, or shall we say, portable way.

Re:Let's hope they come with better software

[lysergic.acid]

mini-USB connectors are definitely a huge plus. the last time i went to Best Buy was while accompanying a friend to get a data link cable for his phone (i forget which model it was), and after looking at 10-12 different link cables, we still couldn't find one that fit the proprietary data port on his phone. the closest thing we saw was an "All-in-One Cell Phone Data Transfer Suite" which came with 10 different cables for various brands of phones, but it cost something like $90.

there's absolutely no reason to use a proprietary connector for what is basically just a USB port. it would be so much easier, and more convenient, for consumers if all handset makers just used mini-USB connectors like everyone else. you don't see digital cameras or external hard drives coming with their own proprietary USB/FireWire ports. it's such a blatant attempt by handset makers to rip off their customers with overpriced data cables--which they usually have to buy separately in addition to requiring a different one for each handset.

i mean, if you wouldn't put up with this kind of scumbag business move with your external hard drive, digital cameras, or MP3 players, then why would you put up with it with your cell phone? heck, my PSP uses Sony's overpriced Memory Stick Pro Duo format instead of the more universal Micro SD format, but it still uses a standard mini-USB connector like pretty much all other portable devices.

Re:Let's hope they come with better software

[wall0159]

"you wouldn't put up with this kind of scumbag business move with ... MP3 players"

you mean like the ipod?

(I say this as the owner of an ipod nano)

Re:Let's hope they come with better software

[UltraAyla]

good point, but remember that even though their connector is proprietary, they give you a cable for it when you buy the unit - it doesn't require you to go buy another one. But you're right when it comes to buying 3rd party peripherals. The car charger for your phone won't work for your ipod (which would be nice)

Re:Let's hope they come with better software

[Bert64]

So you have to carry the cable around with you all the time incase you need to recharge or such...
Using standard cables means there will always be a cable or two at work you can use, and any friend's house or car you find yourself in is likely to have one too.

Re:Let's hope they come with better software

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, millions of people put up this is with there mp3 player. Ever heard of the ipod/iphone? The only reason people do not complain about that is because its so damn popular that tons of hardware makers develop for it. And that is exactly why apple made a proprietary port, so they could charge third party hardware makers royalties for the accessories that are developed for it. Why I agree with you that there should be a standard port for phones, there are reasons that companies do this.

Re:Let's hope they come with better software

[Anonymous Coward]

The iPod's ubiquity means that it _is_ a standard cable now. Who doesn't have one?

Re:Let's hope they come with better software

[samkass]

Actually, almost all the cars in the world these days have factory options for iPod/iPhone rechargers. Almost none have options for USB chargers.

Considering the ubiquity of iPod connectors in planes, computers, clock radios, cars, etc., I wish the Chinese had chosen it instead of mini USB. If you have a mini USB phone, about the only thing you can use to charge it is a computer, and that's not very convenient.

Re:Let's hope they come with better software

[rbanffy]

That was mean. They deserve it.

Re:Let's hope they come with better software

[fermion]

Recall that the dock connector was not developed as a USB connector. It was developed as a firewire connector, which could also use USB. While this capability is not useful for most people, and therefore not worth the extra hassle, it at least somewhat justifies the existence of the $30 cable.

I recall when I bought my mini, and how nice it was to have firewire and not to have to wait forever for the music to load over the slow USB port. I also recall leaving the cable plugged into the back of my hard disk, and charging the mini even if the computer was off. Of course now USB ports are as fast as the old firewire, and the iPod/iPhone has not used firewire for data for years, which meant I had to waste money on a USB Hub, and I believe the newer iPod cannot even charge over firewire, so the dock connector is definitely an anachronism. But it is not like MS/IBM/Nokia arbitrary decision to bork the standard.

OTOH, the iPod/iPhone line is based on the dock connector, so it is not going to be given up without a fight, not from Apple, but from consumers. The USB micro standard may work, except for the fact that most of us have tons of the depreciated mini USB cables, so it still look like an excuse to make us buy new cables.

Re:Let's hope they come with better software

[Dr_Barnowl]

Great, so you have to buy a new car to get the charger... or an accessory to plug into the 12V cigar lighter socket.

You can also get 12V lighter socket chargers for USB, and wall outlet chargers with USB sockets on too these days.

I wish Apple had chosen a standard instead of their proprietary connector, but it obviously has more functions than just power and data. An mini-usb with a small extension for the extra lones that was physically compatible with a standard connector (for just data and power) might have been nice though.

Re:Let's hope they come with better software

[kdart]

That's not true. You can buy wall chargers with mini USB ports and car chargers with mini usb ports. They can be used to charge any phone with a mini usb port. You can mix and match any vendor's product. That's the beauty of standard interfaces.

Re:Let's hope they come with better software

[AvitarX]

In a way, like the G1 connector.

It can mic/headset, but a standard mini USB fits too.

The data-cable it came with it G1 only, but the charger works with other phones that need USB (In fact I purchased a Sidekick car charger since they were out of G1 chargers).

Re:Let's hope they come with better software

[reidconti]

Maybe this means they'll finally deliver a non-buggy app suite. I think Motorola has been suffering because of the quality of their software.

Wrong. Motorola makes unholy crappy hardware AND software.
The WinMo based Motorola Q is a perfect example of what not to do. It's basically an unusable device. I don't know how much to blame on Moto (probably the parts about the battery always dying, it not recognizing when it was plugged into a charger half the time, constant crashing, etc) and how much of it was Microsoft's fault (some of the crashing, failing to ring when a call comes in, etc etc).

It was not my first Moto; I had a few Nextels as well (i1000, i50). I will never again use a Motorola phone or a Microsoft-powered phone. Sorry, guys, I don't want a task manager on my phone. I want a phone that works the way they say it will. iPhone fits the bill for now.

Re:Let's hope they come with better software

[Ihmhi]

there's absolutely no reason to use a proprietary connector for what is basically just a USB port.

What about shameless profiteering?

Why let someone buy a $10 mini USB to USB cable from Best Buy when they can buy a $15 proprietary cable from YOUR company?

Re:Let's hope they come with better software

[SenseiLeNoir]

The G1, like all HTC devices, have this weird USB mini connector(called the EUSB), with a strange shape.

The rason is that it is actually a dual sided connector, with one side for the USB/Charging and the other side for the headphones.

You can connect ANY normal USB cable to the connector, data or Power (I use a motorola charger with my G1). they will only connect their pins to the USB side..

The proprietry HEADPHONE can only connect to an EUSB, to prevent it from being connected to a normal USB mini port.

WHy have HTC done this? speaking to a HTC employee, I got the following answers.

a) a USB port is stronger mechanically to a 3.5mm jack. in a phone use (people suddenly yanking the device out of the pocket when it rings) causes higher stress on the jack than normal, therefore using a USB port as a headphone delivery system lends to a robust connector, and less returns (adapters are available)

b) Motorola uses a usb type headset, which use the standard pins to deliver analogue sound. However, HTC found that humans, being the curious beings they are, like to try and insert the headphones into devices they are not supposed to mate with, causing damage. The proprietry socket prevents this.

c) earlier (pre 6.1) versions Windows Mobile had certain limitations with its sound device handling. If you were to fit a 3.5mm jack and insert a normal pair of headphones into the jack, the software would be unable to use the headphones as a output, and the built in mic as an input (which is a different channel), causing all sorts of issues. by using a ESB adapter, at least the adaptor can be made to have a normal mic (and switch)

Not all HTC phones use the EUSB connector. the SonyEricsson Xperia (also manufacured by HTC) uses a 3.5mm jack, so has a normal USB connector.

Motorola's financial hardships...

[morgan_greywolf]

Moto's financial hardships are mostly the result of their crappy phones no one wants because they break too easily, are too sllllooooowwwww, and just all around suck. Maybe Android will help them out.

Re:Motorola's financial hardships...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. My boss owns a cell phone store as a side business. He claims the Motorola phones have easily FIVE TIMES the warranty claim rate of other manufacturers. (Second worse is LG.) Samsung have the lowest percentage of warranty repairs, but few people seem interested in their phones...

My personal experience with Motorola phones is they stop working if you look at them incorrectly.

Re:Motorola's financial hardships...

[pcolaman]

Mainly because Samsung phones look cheap and have poor software for the most part. Not 100% true but true of many of their phones. HTC, RIM, and Nokia are the companies I would say make generally rock solid phones, for the most part. Of course, you could say that of the three, only Nokia makes actual phones, and RIM and HTC make PDAs that you can make phone calls from.

I'd love to see what devices these will be

[f1vlad]

I too hope Andriod will strengthen them on the market. I didn't really like G1 phone. Just looks weird. Slider (looks like it) is about to fall off and bottom part looks like it is glued to the phone :).

So hope there will be more Android devices and soon, I am eager to give it a try.

Re:I'd love to see what devices these will be

[pcolaman]

This comes from your apparent vast experience with the G1, right? /endsarcasm.

I got a G1, and the thing is an absolute dream. About my only complaint if that there isn't a great selection of good carrying cases so far and I find myself relying on the sleeve that came with it. The slider is solid feeling, the phone as a whole has a very durable feeling to it and the bottom is not "glued on." I actually find that the angle of the bottom makes it easier to use the hardware keys and only slightly interferes with using the keyboard.

Re:I'd love to see what devices these will be

[f1vlad]

Thanks for the insight. Yeah my G1 experience isn't great, so I definitely could be mistaken. I am a t-mobile customer actually and was actually quite close to ordering G1. But after having used iphone for a long time and looking at G1 upcose I realised I'd rather wait for for other device that doesn't have slider. Even some HTC devices are pretty interesting (Diamond P3700). I just wish this G1 thing was without slider.

Re:I'd love to see what devices these will be

[pcolaman]

I really like the slider but am looking forward to the upcoming apps that are being developed for change in screen rotation without having to use the slider and also the upcoming additions to Android early next year that will allow for a softkeyboard. But having made some posts on here and other sites directly from my G1 really makes it worthwhile. Did I mention I pay 15 bucks less per month for unlimited data than anyone who owns an iPhone will?

Re:I'd love to see what devices these will be

[GoodNicksAreTaken]

I didn't really like G1 phone. Just looks weird

This is exactly why the iPhone sells so well and will continue to sell well. Phones are not sold based upon usability but upon how they look and what trendy celebrities are seen carrying them. I wonder what Masi Oka carries.

Re:I'd love to see what devices these will be

[f1vlad]

I think subconsciously I am afraid that everything that slides or otherwise opens etc is not durable. That's why iphone is comforting. It's just a box with no moving parts. I am definitely looking at other HTC devices.

G1 dataplan is indeed attractive you got a good point there.

Re:I'd love to see what devices these will be

[pcolaman]

I was worried about the durability of the slider as well but I can honestly say that it is very sturdy indeed. As a matter of fact I'm posting this from the G1. My only gripe with the G1 so far is that there is no soft keyboard and that you cannot manually rotate the screen no matter what app you are in (the browser supports this but each app has to support it on its own). Both of these features are already in the works and the soft keyboard is slated for 1st Q of 09.

Linux to Android? Hmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

In other words, they're switching from Linux (custom stack) to Linux (standardized stack). Normally such a move is lauded; Motorola needs to do less to upkeep their stack, offloading the work onto Google and the community. It helps standardize their software more, meaning that software can move from Motorola Phone #1 to Samsung Phone #8, which even with Java it's damned hard to do today.

It's news, but it's not earthshattering news.

Re:Linux to Android? Hmm...

[pcolaman]

Not earth shattering, but certainly a step in the right direction.

Re:Linux to Android? Hmm...

[Chandon Seldon]

In other words, they're switching from Linux (custom stack) to Linux (standardized stack).

Or the opposite, if you remember that Android supports neither native Linux applications nor J2ME applications.

Re:Linux to Android? Hmm...

[dontmakemethink]

-- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.

Six million Jews would doubt you, but don't worry, they've been censored REAL well.

OMFG, stupidest post ever, I'm drunk... be merciful...

Re:Linux to Android? Hmm...

[dontmakemethink]

Holy shit. I can't believe how masterfully I just sent the exact polar opposite message I intended. What I was thinking was how Jews were "censored" for trying to censor Nazis. I KINDA SKIPPED THE MOST IMPORTANT PART.

I have no excuse. I apologize profusely.

Shameless plug

[Anonymous Coward]

Motorola's ZN5 Reviewed, and compaired to the T-Mobile G1 and iPhone:

http://linuxslate.com/Review-Motorola_ZN5.html

It's a plug, but it is relevant to the article.

Re:Shameless plug

[Ethanol-fueled]

That looks like a newer version of the L6.

My L6 has been durable, fantastic, and simple with no problems except for one: the buttons are way too damn small.

It's great for the ladies or for very small hands in general but I have to use my finer motor skills else I get the keypad-mashing effect.

Re:Shameless plug

[coastwalker]

As a European who uses text more than calling this is an endemic problem with cell phones - they are universally crap for texting because of small buttons. Maybe now that the super hype of money for nothing style over substance shallow consumerism has landed each and every one of us with a tax bill of a couple of hundred thousand dollars of future taxation to pay off fucking barking mad asset inflation - we can get back to consumer goods that do what we need them to do rather than some marketing droids dream of what might look cool in a Disney movie.

So lets get back to a user interface that works and a phone with a decent battery life instead of useless bits of fantastic technology dedicated to looking great and being totally useless in practice. I am sure that Motorola engineers, like engineers in every company that has been sucked into the vacuous dream world we have been living in will come up with the goods. Android is an excellent platform to move forward with IMHO.

Re:Shameless plug

[Anonymous Coward]

I am sure that Motorola engineers, like engineers in every company that has been sucked into the vacuous dream world we have been living in will come up with the goods.

(Disclaimer: I work with the industry, but have not worked with Motorola. However, I have friends who have worked for them. And these issues are endemic.)

Unfortunately, engineers are not the ones driving the show. The show is being driven by non-technical people of varying levels of cluelessness. These are people who want to see feature X because it looks good on the brand, never mind that no-one at development has resources to do such a thing nor will such a feature actually benefit anyone. Then, ultimately you end up with low quality crap done in a half-assed way.

The best these non-technical people can do is to issue vague statements claiming "we must increase quality". What does it mean? Well, nothing, really. They should give the technical, political and organisational means to increase quality and also understand that there's a trade-off. Things can be done with higher quality, but it requires more effort - this means more development time, and actually letting developers focus on doing that thing, and not getting into their way, and not letting the non-technical people dictate what happens.

Directions must be set, of course. But once it's set, let the people who do the work, to actually do the work.

The only mobile manufacturer who gets it at the moment (and has for some time already) is Nokia. This is evident from their market position. This is why they are number 1.

If an analyst wants to know how a company will do with their mobile phones, they would do good to talk to the developers to find out if the corporate environment helps them develop the new stuff and maintain the old one, or is it just a big cluster-fuck of a hindrance.

This applies to other industries as well. Ask the people at the floor in a factory. Don't ask the VP of something who often stands to benefit from lying to the analyst (stock benefits).

Re:Shameless plug

[xaxa]

I've had an L6 for about 18 months, but I find the buttons are prone to falling off -- they're just glued on (don't pull at them to check, they'll come off). I've superglued them back on several times now.

Re:Shameless plug

[Anonymous Coward]

Man, I carried an L6 hither and yon for over two years and had zero issues. I've worn off some of the metallic paint from the edges of the buttons, but otherwise it is just like the day I bought it. I just switched to an L72 (Asian L9), and despite them being nearly the same size, I slightly regret the added weight.

Despite my big hands, I hope they don't listen to you folks. I don't want a phone the size of an electronic drum set just so I can press buttons without using "fine motor control". I want the phone as small and unobtrusive as possible. If anything, I wish they'd figure a way to put some of the touchscreen or stylus functions in as an alternate data entry, but with the otherwise slim and trim firmware. I don't want a smart phone, but there are probably more efficient ways to enter text messages, calendar entries, etc.

Just to insert some oddball Apple fanboyism... I just added a brand new ipod nano to my collection. Its battery life, weight, and size while playing back good quality music are astounding. I wish they'd make a phone format like that, rather than these clunky "touch" phones which are bulkier than the wallet I don't like to carry.

A1200

[LingNoi]

So does this mean users of the A1200 will be able to run android? One can only hope, I know OpenEZX has put a lot of effort into being able to install your own Linux variant on the phone but I would not be able to do that, there's no guide on their site for one, plus I bricking my phone isn't an option.

Re:A1200

[Anonymous Coward]

No, but who needs Android when you have AmigaOS?

Re:A1200

[AmigaHeretic]

Yeah, can Android run Quake this fast on a 15 year phone??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao7haFa2iQk

Re:A1200

[Microlith]

Potentially. But considering Android is designed to take advantage of 3G networks, I don't think the experience would be too snappy. I don't see Google Maps, much less Street View, working all that great on the A1200.

Sadly, getting custom kernels running on newer hardware is going to be more difficult. Pushing the software stack to Google lets them focus on making phones more and more end-user hostile (go go top-to-bottom checksums and code signing.)

Motorola, the new Palm

[SuperKendall]

Motorola going to Android, ditching old crufty phone OS'es - a fantastic idea.

But they follow the ill-fated palm of Palm in dividing resources, by going both with Android and Windows Mobile! When Palm pulled that move they lost focus, and products suffered as a result. I can't help but forsee the same fate engulfing Motorola as they go further down the path of becoming a has-been...

I don't know what company will take Android to the heights it could achieve, but now I don't think it will be Motorola.

Re:Motorola, the new Palm

[LingNoi]

They're probably balancing on the fence keeping their options open. I doubt they'd keep two code bases maintained.

Re:Motorola, the new Palm

[lysergic.acid]

i wonder if HTC has adopted a similar strategy. they used to use Windows Mobile exclusively for all of their handsets, but now that they're in the Open Handset Alliance and have produced the Dream/G1, does that mean they're going to be an all-android handset manufacturer, or are they still going to keep making Windows Mobile handsets?

i guess since Android is still a nascent and largely an untested platform, most OHA members probably aren't going to put all of their eggs in one basket just yet. but perhaps in a year or two, once Android has proven itself commercially, companies like Motorola will be more willing to commit themselves to the platform and drop Windows Mobile.

Re:Motorola, the new Palm

[TubeSteak]

IMO, none of this matters if the Cell Carrier is allowed to fark up the handset manufacturer's hard work with a custom firmware that strips out features.

Re:Motorola, the new Palm

[i.of.the.storm]

I'm pretty sure HTC has stated that they're going to keep producing WinMo phones for the foreseeable future. Since they're the biggest/best manufacturer of WinMo phones, I don't see why not. And while Android is cool, at this point it's still a 1.0 product without as much software available as WinMo. I doubt HTC would ever drop WinMo since it seems to be heading towards improvement with the increased competition.

Re:Motorola, the new Palm

[jargon82]

Interesting. I agree here, as I feel WM 6.1 was a MUCH greater improvement over WM 6 than 6 was over 5. I'm using a blackjack II (which I chose for it's decent keyboard, lets me ssh from it without too much pain) and the 6.1 upgrade fixed and improved a handful of things relevant to me. My move from a WM 5 to a WM 6 device brought me almost no benefit, initially, other than improved hardware but the WM 6.1 upgrade has been great. Maybe at least one arm of MS is getting the picture? The time to compete is here.

Re:Motorola, the new Palm

[wicka]

HTC will almost definitely stick with WinMo considering how much work they've put into TouchFlo.

Re:Motorola, the new Palm

[i.of.the.storm]

I think Microsoft is sort of getting attacked on all its fronts, although Apple represents the biggest threat, both in the smartphone market and the OS market. In the MP3 player market Microsoft entered late but is making headway into Apple's marketshare, and the same goes for the video game console market.

It seems like this competition is forcing them to actually innovate and improve their stuff. Windows 7, for one thing, actually looks significantly different than previous versions of Windows. I think they finally realized that their UI kind of sucked and that they could improve upon it like they did with Office 2007, which most people but the most diehard MS haters agree makes you more productive. Everything seems much better engineered, too. Running on a netbook with 1GB RAM? I never thought it would be possible, but apparently they got it to use less than 512MB of RAM.

I was similarly surprised when they mentioned that Windows Media Player 12 would have a bunch of codec support for things like h264 and DivX, it's like a sudden outbreak of common sense hit Microsoft. I guess they realized that there's no point trying to push their format by only playing WMA/WMV and the more common ones, since people are just going to use a different player if they can't play their videos in WMV.

Re:Motorola, the new Palm

[mgblst]

Palm was focused? Really. Palm lost it a long time ago. They were ahead of there game, and just didn't release anything good for ages. It took them years to come out with each product, that was mildly better. They could have one this whole game years ago if they had any sense, but somewhere along the way they decided they would rather be losers.

WinMo upgrades

[mrsteveman1]

Last WinMo device i had, the manufacturer simply didn't feel like updating the software for my specific device when a new version came out, even though it could in fact support the newer version. A hardware manufacturer shouldn't have that level of control over the software.

That was the last WinMo device i bought and it's going to stay that way. Of course most of these upgrades to WinMo amount to "Now with 15% less suck!" so I'm sure i wasn't missing much, but it annoyed me into never buying one again.

Re:WinMo upgrades

[aliquis]

On the other side with anything else aren't you stuck with the same amount of suck the whole time?

Re:WinMo upgrades

[mlts]

I have had a WinMo device which people cleverly made a custom ROM for WM6 (it was a WM5 device). This allowed encryption of the MiniSD memory card, as well as the ability to have the phone erase itself on command from an Exchange server.

Its worked well for me for daily use, but I don't see many new apps coming out for WM, nor much interest in new stuff, other than minor software updates.

It seems like everyone and their dog has seemed to have dumped Symbian, Blackberry, and WM for iPhone SDKs and placement on Apple's store. Because of this (since I was working on a cellphone RPG), I probably will end up moving to an iPhone sooner or later to not get left behind in the market, should I actually write something that is publishable.

Re:WinMo upgrades

[drinkypoo]

As more people pick up cellphones around the world, the number of operating systems for which there is room increases. Eventually something will come out which won't suck. Don't give up hope! Too bad it hasn't happened yet. I think there is room for a hacked system on top of Android, though. It could provide support Linux programs...

Re:WinMo upgrades

[mlts]

Very good point. What might happen is that for corporate use and upper end phones, WM and Blackberry retain a large niche. As of now, even with the enhanced Exchange connectivity, iPhones do not offer encryption of their contents, nor the ability to erase themselves if someone does too many bad password attempts. These two things keep the iPhone from widespread corporate use.

I think the market will end up sort of similar to how computer operating systems are: Blackberry's OS and Windows Mobile for corporate use, similar to Solaris and AIX. Low end phones that come free with plans, which could be compared to Windows. Android based phones which are used by people to write the latest cool thing, similar to Linux or BSD. Finally, the iPhone which can be related to OS X, which is used for consumer use for people who want more in a phone than making calls.

Wanted

[Gastrobot]

Android Developer Must have BS in computer science or related field or equivalent experience. Minimum 5 years developing applications to run on Google's Android. Java certification a plus!

Re:Wanted

[Anonymous Coward]

Android Developer

Must have BS in computer science or related field or equivalent experience.
Minimum 5 years developing applications to run on Google's Android.

Java certification a plus!

You missed the memo. The BS has been superseded by the MS with a PhD preferred. Minimum 5 years developing multi-network-aware client-server applications to run on Google's Android. J2ME certification mandatory.

Re:Wanted

[shermozle]

You know when Java first came out, I saw some job ads asking for five years' Java experience. I don't think Bill Joy applied though.

Re:Wanted

[toriver]

Bill Joy would not qualify, only the "Green" team (including Gosling, the main Java advocate) would have had long enough "carreers" with Oak/Java.

http://java.sun.com/features/1998/05/birthday.html

Re:Wanted

[pavon]

No, no, no. BS is childish. MS is mandatory, PhD is overqualified, and unhirable.

Re:Wanted

[ClosedSource]

You forgot the experience summary "0-3 years".

See, if you create job qualifications that are mutually exclusive you can keep the job open for years and then complain to the US government that you need more H-1B visas since you couldn't find any US candidates that meet the job requirements.

Re:Wanted

[TheKidWho]

But I have 10 years of experience developing for Google's Android!

Re:Wanted

[Anonymous Coward]

It still goes on, too. About 6 months ago I read an ad that required 3 years of iPhone development experience.

Android developers?

[Hurricane78]

First the outsource to india, and now robots??

The take our jooobs!

Dey dak err jaaabs!!

Dek uuur dewwww!!!

All they need to do...

[MikeRT]

Is bring a good competitor to the G1 to Verizon. I don't know what most states are like, but almost everyone I know who doesn't own an iPhone uses Verizon in Virginia. If they could get a quality Android-based product available for $200-$300 on the Verizon network, they'd see a huge surge in sales in this state.

Re:All they need to do...

[Ritz_Just_Ritz]

Verizon doesn't want something open. They want to own your ass from the cradle to the grave. Android does not fit in their business model. If you want more functionality, they want you to PAY for it (and pay...and pay again).

Re:All they need to do...

[pcolaman]

Yeah, one of many reasons why I just left Verizon for T-Mobile. They lock down any feature of a phone they cannot figure out a way to charge for or feel that would rival one of their sold services, and they cannot even get a reasonable selection of quality phones. And don't you dare call phones such as the Voyager quality phones or I'll smack you in the face. Was getting near the end of my contract with Verizon and needed to replace my old phone (started crapping out from being dropped too many times) and quickly realized that Verizon carries probably the biggest selection of shitty phones I've ever seen. It's as if they commissioned Fisher Price to develop the shells for almost all of their phones. The only great phones they have are made by RIM.

Re:All they need to do...

[i.of.the.storm]

Seriously, Verizon is such BS with their phones. They have less phones with Wifi than most people have fingers on one hand, last I checked, and they're way more expensive than the equivalent GSM models. All their Blackberries don't have Wifi I think, yet the nearest equivalent AT&T model usually does. If they didn't have a good network I wouldn't use them at all.

Re:All they need to do...

[Anonymous Coward]

First off, Virginia is not a state , but a commonwealth. Don't get it twisted! Second of all Verizon doesn't even have its own network , and AT&T is number 1 in Virginia. I would know I used to work for Verizon , and Nortel and have ran the stats numerous times. AT&t is the largest in virginia hands down....... that is why most of the government uses AT&T and gives discounts to its employees (if they dont receive a free phone) for say , a commonwealth employee.

Please comment only if you know something, or have facts to contribute to the matter. You just felt like "blogging" not helping or debating.

bad wanna be geek , no computer....
bad wanna be geek , no computer....

lmao.

Acid~

Re:All they need to do...

[Anonymous Coward]

it's not Android based, but I'm using the new Moto Krave on Verizon, and it's about the best phone I've got my hands on outside of the iPhone

Re:All they need to do...

[Anonymous Slacker]

A phone made by Fisher Price would probably hold up better to abuse.

Upgrade available for all recent Moto models!

[msmiffy]

I wish :-(

Re:Obama voted AGAINST mobile phone research!

[Anonymous Coward]

Craig is a Republican not a Democrat.

You failed it.

Except CDMA phones = not for Sprint

[gelfling]

Sprint will continue to do what it does slow, weird, late and expensive.

Re:Except CDMA phones = not for Sprint

[mlts]

Sprint needs to turn themselves around. First, they need to get G4 service or WiMax out there nationwide, as perhaps an alternative for home Internet service other than DSL or cable. Second, they need to make people want to buy their stuff. There are a couple cool Sprint phones, but most people tend to either buy a free (with plan) handset, or an iPhone. The low end handset does what most people want... take/receive calls, some text messaging, basic addressbook. The iPhone has pretty much locked up the smartphone department, except for corporations, where Blackberries and Windows Mobile devices are used (because both offer very good security... Blackberries allow remote erasure, duress codes, remote locking, and the ability to use a CAC card reader. Windows Mobile devices allow for remote erasure. Both can encrypt their memory cards.)

What Sprint has is a lot of bandwidth. The iDEN network for example. They need to leverage this and try to get WiMax out. Then, they will have an alternative revenue stream and not have to worry as much about the whims of cellphone fashion.

Re:Except CDMA phones = not for Sprint

[pcolaman]

When you call the iPhone a smartphone, god kills a kitten. Apple determines what software is allowable on the iPhone, and most of the apps on it are for entertainment purposes or is garbage. The main use for the thing, as admitted by Apple, is to basically have an iPod phone that delivers your need for both a cell phone and a music/video device. The iPhone isn't even in the same sentence as phones such as some of those made by RIM, HTC, etc in the smartphone argument. It's a music/video/toy phone. As far as WiMax, I believe in the technology but not that it will save Sprint. They have far too many financial and other issues that will end up crippling the company. Actually, wouldn't be shocked if they spin off the WiMax portion completely and just keep it called Clearwire, and then sell off Nextel. You laugh, but laugh when this becomes a reality in less than 5 years.

Re:Except CDMA phones = not for Sprint

[Guy Harris]

Apple determines what software is allowable on the iPhone, and most of the apps on it are for entertainment purposes or is garbage.

So what are the statistics for other platforms? My-Symbian.com's list of Series 60 apps has the most apps in the, err, umm, "Games and Entertainment" category, followed by "Miscellaneous Utilties", followed by "Graphics & Multimedia".

Browsing Microsoft's Windows Mobile Catalog shows, by far, the most apps in, well, "Games and Entertainment", followed by "Business and Office Productivity".

The main use for the thing, as admitted by Apple, is to basically have an iPod phone that delivers your need for both a cell phone and a music/video device.

Citation for that admission, please?

Re:Obama voted AGAINST mobile phone research!

[larry bagina]

Craig is a Republican not a Democrat.

You failed it.

he's a little bipartisan.

Please lose the pointless jargon, "stack"

[Anonymous Coward]

Why use the term "stack"? Do regular people really know what that means? Why not just "software" if you need a word there at all? Or, if you must, "platform"? You didn't use stack for "Windows Mobile". Jargon like "stack" is pointless unless you need to discuss the layers of the stack. Who writes this stuff?

Missing Phone Support?

[sunami88]

What? No Motofone / Motorola F3 support :P .

[/joke][/latetotheparty]

mini usb connectors on phones

[nido]

The chinese government has decided that, in the future, all phones will be required to use the humble USB port for charging.

I have a Motorola phone with the USB port, and was quite distraught to find that it wouldn't charge when I plugged it into my computer. WTF? There's a russian site online that shows how to short a USB cable so it can charge. I eventually found that if I installed Motorola's drivers it'd charge just fine.

Re:mini usb connectors on phones

[blackest_k]

yeah its good that one isn't it, I believe its because it thinks it may be a headset.

It is actually a windows issue, plug it in to a pc running ubuntu and it will charge.

Re:mini usb connectors on phones

[Anonymous Coward]

just plugging a cable into the phone and a windows PC will not charge it. I had to download the 'driver' from the motorola site (although the sycn suite cd that comes with my ROKR - or whatver the thing is called - also had this on it).

They are not simple storage devices and will not charge (at least on a PC) without additional drivers.

Re:mini usb connectors on phones

[Dr_Barnowl]

I believe the USB port in Windows will only supply power when the device is identified, to save power.

Of course, if the phone has no power, this is a monstrous inconvenience. I've taken to carrying a wind-up LED torch with a charger socket ; that way, I can prolong talk time when the battery is low and I have no outlet, and when it's flat, I can give it enough juice for the computer to charge it.

I'm not sure whether Ubuntu will charge it with a flat battery either, I must try that. But it certainly seems to have a driver out of the box that will let it charge.

Re:mini usb connectors on phones

[KGIII]

It has been my observation that when charging the phones with the USB data cable and a PC that if the phone's power is completely drained that if you just plug it in and don't touch it and wait then after about 10-15 minutes it will turn itself on and charge.

Re:mini usb connectors on phones

[drinkypoo]

I have a Motorola phone with the USB port, and was quite distraught to find that it wouldn't charge when I plugged it into my computer. WTF?

Yes, this is stupid. You discovered the need for a driver. If your phone has a data mode, set it to that, and then you don't need to install a driver for anything but mass storage.

Re:mini usb connectors on phones

[mgblst]

That is windows fault, it needs the drivers before it will allow power to a USB port. plug it into Linux, and you wouldn't have this problem.

I disagree about the hardware

[SuperKendall]

I think the quality of hardware is fine (as in I feel like the RAZR was a pretty solid phone that would not break easily).

Where I diverge is that I don't think Motorola is good at making usable hardware. After a year or two, I hated the buttons on the RAZR. I didn't like the keypad, and I thought they way they used the side buttons was demonic and caused me to miss many a call hitting them as I reached into my pocket, or randomly changing things I did not want changed.

However I absolutely agree with your main point, in that as much as the hardware over time wore ill with me, I hated the software far more yet.

But it's the meshing of hardware and software from Motorola I'll be casting a critical eye upon...

Re:I disagree about the hardware

[BrokenHalo]

I concur. I have a RAZR2 V9, which on the whole is quite a good phone. Strongly built (compared to other clamshell devices I have had), and just a bit overly heavy as a result, mine has stood up to quite a few knocks with few marks. The buttons are less than optimal, since they are a bit hard to identify by touch, but the display isn't bad. The battery is a bit small, which limits time between charges, but on the plus side, I can charge it via the USB port, so I can travel with just one charger for all of my devices.

But their Windows-centric software sucks to the extent that it really limits the phone's usefulness, since the only meaningful thing that can be done easily is maintenance of contacts lists. Hopefully, adopting the Android OS might eventually get some cross-platform operability happening. Though I'm not holding my breath...

Re:I disagree about the hardware

[plover]

For the most part, their hardware usability has been improving. I intensely disliked the stainless steel cut-out buttons on the RAZR V1 (my fingernail would slip along the digit edges and scrape, giving me that fingernails-on-chalkboard feeling) but their later models have silicone filled them from behind, leaving smooth buttons with raised divider lines, and they raised the digit 5. The keypad is now very usable.

I fully blame the RAZR's "phone edge" buttons annoying behavior on the software, not the hardware. When you shut the phone because you don't want it to work any more, how freaking hard is it for them to disable ALL the buttons? Like you, that was my biggest peeve about the whole RAZR. They disabled the buttons that were protected beneath the now-closed phone (brilliant!), but left the buttons along the edge active (morons!) More than once I had my seat belt buckle switch the phone from "ring" to "silent" only to then miss an important call. I downloaded OS patches and hacked the seems and eventually found a way to "kind of" disable those edge buttons so I could live with the phone, but that further demonstrated the worst of their stupidity. The Z6 also does not have that problem, by the way.

They've learned. They've improved the usability of the hardware with every release. MOTOMAGX has been far more stable than the previous Motorola operating systems, but nothing to write home about. It has a much prettier interface. The address book is sane. The music player is far better and faster than the KRZR's music player (but corrupts its database with annoying frequency.) And Opera is a very nice little browser. Now, if they could just get the memory leaks in their JRE fixed and their stupid Bluetooth stack to work 100% of the time instead of 90% of the time, (plus allow me the choice to remain discoverable full-time) I'd be thrilled.

I just don't know if this will be my last Motorola phone. Android's not there yet, so I'm not ready to switch that way. I intensely dislike Apple for their complete and total proprietary *everything*. iTunes and my iPod Touch have been nightmares of lockdowns and non-portability, so I'll never buy another one of those. Maybe the new Motorola Android will be the magic device.

Re:I disagree about the hardware

[drinkypoo]

I fully blame the RAZR's "phone edge" buttons annoying behavior on the software, not the hardware. When you shut the phone because you don't want it to work any more, how freaking hard is it for them to disable ALL the buttons?

You bought the wrong phone. The RAZR was intended as a fashion phone, which is one obvious argument; but another is that it was intended to be used with a headset (bluetooth or no) in the closed position.

I'm still waiting for someone to offer me a cellphone as a constellation of bluetooth devices; one keypad/display/phone, one camera, one headset, one speaker-only for the other ear. I'm pissed at my RAZR V3i (whose hinge has just inexplicably begun to flop about, without receiving any recent trauma) for the general poor quality of the software, but I'm not really sure what I should get that's anywhere near as small and that would suck less.

Re:I disagree about the hardware

[plover]

You bought the wrong phone. The RAZR was intended as a fashion phone, which is one obvious argument; but another is that it was intended to be used with a headset (bluetooth or no) in the closed position..

I didn't buy the wrong phone, I bought the first RAZR when they came out because Bluetooth was a requirement for me even back then. And I've used a lot of cell phones with a variety of headsets and handsfree car kits. Absolutely none of them require me to interact with the phones, closed or open, in any way. All controlling of the phone is handled through the headset controls. There has never been a need to access the phone's buttons.

I'm still waiting for someone to offer me a cellphone as a constellation of bluetooth devices; one keypad/display/phone, one camera, one headset, one speaker-only for the other ear. I'm pissed at my RAZR V3i (whose hinge has just inexplicably begun to flop about, without receiving any recent trauma) for the general poor quality of the software, but I'm not really sure what I should get that's anywhere near as small and that would suck less.

I'm not sure what you're asking about with the "constellation" of devices. All those devices are independently available today (apart from the two-separate-device headphone thing.) The LG Decoy even incorporates a Bluetooth headset into the phone body, which detaches for use. Or Bug Labs offers a truly modular phone, into which you can plug four additional peripherals: GPS, camera, motion sensor, and touch screen are all available now. And I'd really like the OpenMoko Neo Freerunner, but it doesn't have EDGE.

And my Z6 is still tiny. It's about 8mm narrower than my RAZR, but is 2mm thicker and 7mm taller. Plus, I bought it direct from Motorola so it's not locked to any carrier, and is fully international. So there should be plenty of choices out there for you.

Re:I disagree about the hardware

[drinkypoo]

I didn't buy the wrong phone, I bought the first RAZR when they came out because Bluetooth was a requirement for me even back then.

You could have got a V5xx.

And I've used a lot of cell phones with a variety of headsets and handsfree car kits. Absolutely none of them require me to interact with the phones, closed or open, in any way.

The headset and the phone both have a volume setting. I have had to manipulate both to get good range.

I'm not sure what you're asking about with the "constellation" of devices. All those devices are independently available today (apart from the two-separate-device headphone thing.)

The problem is making them all work with one device at one time, which from my limited understanding (never actually having tried myself) is problematic at best.

Re:I disagree about the hardware

[plover]

A V5xx would have been a large, clumsy step down from my little Sony Ericsson T637, and software-wise they came with the exact same crappy OS and applications that came in the RAZR anyway. Their Bluetooth stack was equally unstable on both platforms. That's what started this thread: Motorola's OS and applications have basically sucked for many years, and only their MOTOMAGX Linux offering has shown any improvement.

Regarding the simultaneous connectivity issue, I have quite a bit of experience with Bluetooth, and found it entirely depends on the device. Most phones have limited CPUs and power budgets, and deal with only one device at a time. More capable devices (such as notebook computers) can support multiple devices, such as a simultaneous network tether to a phone and a Bluetooth mouse. Some phones are better at "sharing" a single connection -- Sony Ericsson has a clever mode that tries to find a headset at the start of ringing, and failing that switches to an audible ringer. The advantage is that the phone can be in session with a different device (a tethered network connection, for example) while in range of a handsfree car kit. It gives most of the utility of a multiple connection device without the extra overhead in the phone.

I've found most of the highly portable devices have very poor control interfaces (a pushbutton or two and a blinking light.) This makes it inconvenient to rapidly switch a stereo headset between different hosts, such as a phone and a computer. Pairing is almost universally inconvenient, so re-pairing is an undesirable solution.

Anyway, I've become a total Bluetooth junkie. If there's an option, I won't buy a portable electronic device without it. Since it made its debut, I've had Bluetooth in my last three phones, an earbud, two A2DP stereo headsets, a car kit, a car stereo, at least five PC adapters, a home audio I/O interface, two Palm devices, and a travel mouse. In terms of reliability, I'd rank the old Sony Ericsson phone as the most effective and easy to use of the phones. The Z6 is next, followed by the KRZR and the RAZR at the bottom of the stability curve. The Microsoft mouse is rock solid, and the Motorola stereo headphones are usable, but the S9 fails at reception (the HT-820s sound fine but are so butt-ugly that a troll like me feels like a geek wearing them.) The Kenwood car stereo absolutely sucks in terms of usability (Bluetooth licensed from Parrot,) especially when compared to the Sony Ericsson car kit.

The first PC adapters used to suck mightily, (I had a couple of almost worthless Belkins) but the last few (Motorola, Zoom and Targus) have been relatively stable (all three of those use the latest Widcomm drivers.) XP Service pack 2 finally "mostly" stabilized Bluetooth in the OS. And 64-bit Vista Bluetooth support has been completely bug-free for me. Unsurprisingly every PC adapter I've ever tried has had a near-perfect and seamless implementation on various Apples, including iMacs and a G4. Linux support, while slow to support every device, has been very good.

So yeah, Bluetooth is good, and still has a lot of promise. But it has a long way to go yet.

Re:I disagree about the hardware

[drinkypoo]

So yeah, Bluetooth is good, and still has a lot of promise. But it has a long way to go yet.

I've actually been pretty well dismayed with the state of Bluetooth on Linux. It seems like tooth-pulling every time I want to get a new device working. I had to read two FAQs just to get my GPS paired... And I've never had any luck with my headset. I sure would like to have a mouse, but it's got to be a Logi...

I've been a Motorola junkie in phoneland in spite of their crap software because of the generally high quality of their hardware. I've abused my phones mightily and still had fairly good results, even with the V3i (although my hinge is starting to go - over a year of abuse later.) I was hoping that they would embrace Linux more as time went on... but again, hopefully some sort of open platform on top of the Linux that they base Android upon will be feasible. I'm not holding my breath, and my next phone will probably be cheaper and dumber.

Bright Move?

[Anonymous Coward]

So by buying the fancy new anchor that mickeysoft is selling, they buy all of the problems that come with crapware. But, since their boat is already sinking, doesn't the fancy new anchor add excess weight as well as punching a few unnecessary holes in an already wet boat? I guess desperate is desperate. Maybe mickeysoft bribed them with enough cash to keep them afloat for a few years even if they don't sell any phones. Still in the long run I can't help but think that this is a really bad move.

Re:Bright Move?

[pcolaman]

As long as much of the world uses Windows, most of the mobile world will use Windows Mobile on smartphones. Such is the way of the world. Personally I'm rooting hard for Google with Android because I think it'll end up being a much more robust OS than the Windows Mobile platform, and being open automatically makes it better than anything Apple puts out.

Re:Bright Move?

[i.of.the.storm]

I'm actually pretty sure WinMo isn't the most common smartphone platform - that distinction probably goes to RIM, and if not then S60. But Nokia has a much smaller presence in the US than in Europe and Asia. I'm pretty sure RIM has the most smartphones overall.

Re:Bright Move?

[Guy Harris]

I'm actually pretty sure WinMo isn't the most common smartphone platform - that distinction probably goes to RIM, and if not then S60. But Nokia has a much smaller presence in the US than in Europe and Asia. I'm pretty sure RIM has the most smartphones overall.

Gartner's Q2 2008 worldwide statistics by OS put Symbian first, followed by RIM, followed by Windows Mobile, followed by Linux, followed by Mac OS X^W^W^WiPhone OS.

Synergy Research's first-half 2008 US smartphone figures put RIM at the top (46%), Apple second (15%), Motorola third (presumably for all OSes).

Re:Bright Move?

[CdBee]

Its interesting however that as in the PC world, we're moving toward a fight between Windows, Mac and Linux, but with extra proprietary players too. I am curious to see how this will end.

Re:Obama voted AGAINST mobile phone research!

[belgar]

What blows me away is not that someone has a hardon for/against Obama, but that someone took the time to write this weird-ass shit, and then post it. I've got lots of political vitriol inside me, but nothing that would merit the time it took to write this amazing piece. Well done, AC. You have freaked me out/blown my mind more than anyone else on /.

Re:Obama voted AGAINST mobile phone research!

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI: This same story gets posted all the time, sometimes (I believe) with different people as the target/subject. So, really, just a copy/paste with some editing, not much time involved.

Re:Obama voted AGAINST mobile phone research!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is just a copypasta, I occasionally see it on a brand new story with few comments before the mods have a chance to get to it. It recently got modified with the Obama storyline but the story itself is older.

Focus on the hardware

[gtada]

Motorola's software is on par with Sony's (absolutely horrendous). They really need to just focus on making solid hardware with appealing industrial design.

I tried writing software for the A780, a very interesting hardware platform with a built-in GPS. But, they never allowed access to the GPS and the other interesting bits. Really short-sighted... why would anyone want to write software for a platform sandboxed to hell?

Re:Obama voted AGAINST mobile phone research!

[Anonymous Coward]

-1, Unoriginal plagarized shit

See me after class to select an original project

Java, Java, Java, Java,

[Alex Belits]

Java, Java, Java, Java,
Java, Java, Java, Java,

mushroom(*), mushroom!

Java, Java, Java, Java,
Java, Java, Java, Java,
Java, Java, Java, Java,

mushroom, mushroom!

Java, Java, Java, Java,
Java, Java, Java, Java,
Java, Java, Java, Java,

Oh, snake(**), oh, snake! Oh, it's a snake!

--
(*) Obviously a hallucinogenic kind that they have at Google if they think, Java is appropriate for mobile devices

(**) Python that ironically is also developed by a person who works for Google -- and would be more appropriate for the purpose.

Re:Java, Java, Java, Java,

[shish]

if they think, Java is appropriate for mobile devices

The java mobile stack is very different to the standard stack, like the only thing it has in common being the .class file format; Python (AFAIK) only has the PC-optimised version (as well as java and .net implementations, but they're also PC-optimised...)

Re:Java, Java, Java, Java,

[Alex Belits]

The java mobile stack is very different to the standard stack, like the only thing it has in common being the .class file format;

And the whole language implementation. And the whole design based entirely on the ideas that poorly apply to embedded and semi-embedded environments. All for the sake of platform independence (runs on ARM and... faster ARM), sophisticated object-oriented language (mostly used to build overcomplicated GUI that would not be appropriate for a phone), and to support the use of massive librarird (that as you have noticed are suspiciously absent in mobile versions).

Python (AFAIK) only has the PC-optimised version (as well as java and .net implementations, but they're also PC-optimised...)

Please, once in a while try to stick your nose outside the Microsoft world. Python is portable, relatively lightweight, and is not based on ambition to build whole applications and all their libraries in "pure Python", so for everything performance-critical it uses libraries written in C. I have given it as just one example of a language that would make more sense.

Re:Java, Java, Java, Java,

[pavon]

Python is relatively lightweight

The hell it is. Python is the only language that where I've had to consistently rewrite code in another language because it ran so slow. I was spending more time optimizing the python code then I gained from it's high level syntax, whereas my first-try straight-forward implementation in C or Java was plenty fast enough. Scheme, OCaml, Haskell, and Lisp are all an order of magnitude faster than python. The stock JIT does use a bit more memory than python, but mobile systems don't use the stock JIT. Python is the last language I would want running on my mobile phone.

Re:Java, Java, Java, Java,

[swillden]

Obviously a hallucinogenic kind that they have at Google if they think, Java is appropriate for mobile devices

Why?

You can't be talking about performance, because Java runs significantly faster than Python in nearly every benchmark you can find -- particularly if you're comparing current implementations, because Java6 saw some huge improvements. Java was faster even before Java6, though.

You also can't be talking about memory, because while the desktop and server versions of the Java libs are huge, and memory requirements follow suit, Java for mobile devices is a different beast. Heck, I write Java for smart cards from time to time, and those JVMs run happily on devices with less than one KB of RAM.

So, why is it that Java is inappropriate for mobile devices?

Note that I like Python, and I think in most cases it's a better language than Java, not because it results in better performance or less memory usage, but because it's faster to develop. And that in spite of the fact that I prefer static typing plus genericity to dynamic typing.

Java is perfectly suited to today's mobile devices, and if it weren't, if the devices were too slow/small to support a virtual machine approach, Python would NOT be the answer. The answer would be an on-the-metal language like C, or C++. Or perhaps Objective-C, which as a non-interpreted language with dynamic typing, dynamic dispatch and garbage collection, falls somewhere in between. (OTOH, googling Java vs Objective-C performance shows no clear consensus on which is faster. A similar search on Python vs Objective-C finds a pretty clear consensus that Python is slower).

Note that I don't think Python is inherently much slower than Java. I think the bulk of Java's performance advantages arise from the amount of effort that has gone into current JVM implementations. The static typing probably helps Java performance a little, but really sophisticated Python implementations could probably work around that issue to a large degree.

Re:Java, Java, Java, Java,

[Alex Belits]

Modern mobile devices have fast CPUs yet very limited RAM. And no swap.

Re:Java, Java, Java, Java,

[Alex Belits]

You also can't be talking about memory, because while the desktop and server versions of the Java libs are huge, and memory requirements follow suit, Java for mobile devices is a different beast. Heck, I write Java for smart cards from time to time, and those JVMs run happily on devices with less than one KB of RAM.

Last time I checked, smartcards never do anything but perform calculations -- in theory they should be able to work with eight bytes of RAM and the rest of program in ROM.

In real applications memory limitations change things completely, but a more important question is, WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO STUFF MASSIVE INFRASTRUCTURE OF JAVA TO RUN APPLICATIONS ON A SMALL, SIMPLE DEVICE? Java's only excuse for existence is that it allows code to be shipped to user without knowing his hardware platform and without giving him the source. This is absolutely irrelevant in the case of phones -- not only hardware but the whole OS is known, compatibility will be broken between major versions and incompatible devices anyway, and hiding the source accomplishes nothing of importance.

Java is perfectly suited to today's mobile devices, and if it weren't, if the devices were too slow/small to support a virtual machine approach, Python would NOT be the answer. The answer would be an on-the-metal language like C, or C++.

When Python program runs, most of the code that takes any noticeable resources is actually libraries written in C. Java is chock-full of pieces of its authors' ideology, and one of those pieces is the idea that everything that can be implemented in Java must be implemented in Java, so Java ends up being more "consistent" but inefficient.

There is an interface to native methods/libraries, but they are supposed to be avoided to achieve "portability". On a mobile device within fixed OS/libraries infrastructure it accomplishes nothing. One can cut away the rest of library and stuff Java where Python or C++ would otherwise be, but then what is the advantage? Supposed purity of Java OO? But then Lisp is better, so we should praise Emacs phone! Large number of developers who think, they can write software in Java? Sounds just like .net that apparently didn't help Windows Mobile to become less of a dud. Most of those people are better to be kept as far from phones as possible. Then what? Being a fad that is being stuffed into everything? Let's run a web server with backend in Ruby on Rails, that's a more recent and therefore superior fad.

Re:Java, Java, Java, Java,

[IamTheRealMike]

You've just explained why Python on a phone is a dumb idea. Have you ever looked at the memory usage of a Python program? Java is bad but Python is absolutely insane. For the longest time (and perhaps this is still true) the Python interpreter just never released memory back to the OS once it had been allocated. That's how much they cared about memory usage.

Here's a few more reasons why Python would be an awful language to develop phone software in. The Python interpreter doesn't "do" multi-threading. It's easier to use Python APIs mistakenly because there's no explicit typing. There's no good IDE for Python, but Eclipse rocks.

You mentioned that Python is appropriate because "for everything performance-critical it uses libraries written in C". So does Android - I suggest you read the code, you'll find that anything CPU intensive is written in C++ or C.

I can't actually think of a worse language for a cell phone than Python, which is not only extremely poor CPU wise, but also memory wise. Actually there are only a few tasks Python is really appropriate for (and I say that as somebody who gets paid to write Python programs every day) - for any codebase of a significant size, there are better tools. Android is a pretty giant codebase.

Re:Java, Java, Java, Java,

[ClosedSource]

I think terms like Windows, Linux, Java, etc are just brand names as far as embedded devices are concerned.

Re:Java, Java, Java, Java,

[swillden]

Last time I checked, smartcards never do anything but perform calculations -- in theory they should be able to work with eight bytes of RAM and the rest of program in ROM

You haven't checked in quite a while, then. Smart cards these days run some pretty sophisticated calculations, with lots of crypto, dynamically-loaded programs (stored in EEPROM, not ROM), with dynamic allocation, garbage collection, fairly deep stacks (the biggest consumer of RAM), etc.

When Python program runs, most of the code that takes any noticeable resources is actually libraries written in C. Java is chock-full of pieces of its authors' ideology, and one of those pieces is the idea that everything that can be implemented in Java must be implemented in Java, so Java ends up being more "consistent" but inefficient.

And yet, in practice, Java is not slower except in cases where the Python code really is doing nothing of substance, just gluing together C libs.

There is an interface to native methods/libraries, but they are supposed to be avoided to achieve "portability".

Actually, the biggest reason for avoiding JNI is that it sucks. For the important libraries, though, the JNI drudgery has already been done for you. This is certainly the case on Android.

On a mobile device within fixed OS/libraries infrastructure it accomplishes nothing.

It accomplishes plenty: The high performance of Java Virtual Machines means that the application code -- you know, the stuff that you download that makes your phone do the cool stuff you want -- runs fast.

There are other reasons as well... you tried to discount the availability of Java developers by comparing them to Visual Basic developers, but that's an invalid comparison. Most Java programmers, like most Python programmers, and unlike most VB programmers, are real programmers who know what they're doing and know how to use their tools effectively... and there are far MORE Java programmers than Python programmers.

All in all, there are points we can debate, but the main point is that your casual dismissal of Java doesn't make sense. Java does have some real advantages, and it's not unreasonable to believe they outweigh Python's advantages in this context. It's possible to argue the converse, but what is not possible is to rationally argue that Java is a completely stupid choice -- as evidenced by the fact that by all reports, it's working very well for Android.

Re:Java, Java, Java, Java,

[landonf]

Modern mobile devices have fast CPUs yet very limited RAM. And no swap.

They have faster CPUs than they used to. The CPUs are still not "fast".

I spent the last week implementing, profiling, and improving up disk-backed image caching with a front-end LRU memory cache for the iPhone, and experimenting with offloading batch image processing off to a OpenGL FBO. Doing image interpolation while scaling is so expensive on the iPhone's relatively fast CPU that it's absolutely necessary for me to cache thumbnails.

The cache implementations themselves had to be highly optimized in order to pull images off disk fast enough to run inside of a tight animation loop, while also supporting a background thread rendering of not-yet-cached thumbnail images and saving to the disk cache.

I can't even fathom writing this in Python. Any spare CPU I have, I put to good use -- there's absolutely none available to spend on a slow interpreter, even for non "performance critical" parts. If there's a non-performance critical code path, then I can always use any available CPU time to do more background work and achieve better perceived UI performance.

Re:Java, Java, Java, Java,

[shutdown -p now]

How is Python - an interpreted, dynamically and loosely typed language with a number of inherent optimization challenges - is better than Java for a resource-constrained device?

Re:Java, Java, Java, Java,

[Alex Belits]

You haven't checked in quite a while, then. Smart cards these days run some pretty sophisticated calculations, with lots of crypto, dynamically-loaded programs

Dynamic loading happens once -- as long as it happens at all, you are fine.

(stored in EEPROM, not ROM),

EEPROM is a form of ROM.

with dynamic allocation, garbage collection,

If you use dynamic memory allocation and especially garbage collection while doing encryption of data passing through your card, something must be terribly wrong with your algorithm. I don't think, anyone even remotely sane would use those features of Java in those conditions.

Otherwise you will just have terrible startup time that no one cares about because it only happens when device is turned on or card is inserted.

fairly deep stacks (the biggest consumer of RAM), etc.

If stack is "the biggest consumer of RAM", then you don't use dynamic allocation much.

Phone applications, on the other hand, deal with dynamically allocated data all the time.

Actually, the biggest reason for avoiding JNI is that it sucks. For the important libraries, though, the JNI drudgery has already been done for you. This is certainly the case on Android.

So what is the benefit compared to C, C++ and Python that not only have those native interfaces but also don't suck at it because this is how those languages are intended to be used?

It accomplishes plenty: The high performance of Java Virtual Machines means that the application code -- you know, the stuff that you download that makes your phone do the cool stuff you want -- runs fast.

Running on an Intel box with 2G of RAM and compared to C++ code written by a Java programmer who believes that C++ is a dialect of Java and writes accordingly -- yes, what was the case with all "proofs" I have seen. Compared to non-crippled native code -- no. In an environment where memory is limited yet the problem requires nontrivial manipulations with it over the course of running the program -- not even comparable.

There are other reasons as well... you tried to discount the availability of Java developers by comparing them to Visual Basic developers, but that's an invalid comparison. Most Java programmers, like most Python programmers, and unlike most VB programmers, are real programmers who know what they're doing and know how to use their tools effectively... and there are far MORE Java programmers than Python programmers.

I don't question the fact that there are good Java programmers. I disagree that "most (anything) programmers are real programmers" because most programmers are actually clueless idiots unless they work in the area specifically inaccessible for clueless idiots -- what GUI applications development in VB, C#, Java and Python is not.

However I am sure, large Java-based pieces of infrastructure in environment where Java clearly provides no benefit, appear only in the hope to attract those large numbers of "I think, I can program in Java" people, and not "real programmers" who usually aren't tied to a single language learned in a crash course.

All in all, there are points we can debate, but the main point is that your casual dismissal of Java doesn't make sense. Java does have some real advantages, and it's not unreasonable to believe they outweigh Python's advantages in this context. It's possible to argue the converse, but what is not possible is to rationally argue that Java is a completely stupid choice -- as evidenced by the fact that by all reports, it's working very well for Android.

Compared to what, Windows Mobile with .net? The OS that killed the whole PDA market by turning devices into unusable toys sold entirely on the promise of running "Windows" (when it was called Windows CE), and later re-appearing on smartphones that are sold only through carriers?

How about comparing to, say, Symbian (what high-end Nokia phones run)? It has its own problems, but its performance is not hindered by some mutated ideology like in the case of Java-only "stacks".

Re:Java, Java, Java, Java,

[Alex Belits]

You've just explained why Python on a phone is a dumb idea. Have you ever looked at the memory usage of a Python program? Java is bad but Python is absolutely insane. For the longest time (and perhaps this is still true) the Python interpreter just never released memory back to the OS once it had been allocated. That's how much they cared about memory usage.

It was fixed in 2.5.

I have just checked how a Python GUI (GTK) program looks like in memory, and most of its memory usage is libraries (written in C) that its numerous modules load, not the interpreter's data itself. In reduced environment memory usage can be easily reduced as libraries are scaled down.

Re:Java, Java, Java, Java,

[Alex Belits]

(missing quotes...)

You've just explained why Python on a phone is a dumb idea. Have you ever looked at the memory usage of a Python program? Java is bad but Python is absolutely insane. For the longest time (and perhaps this is still true) the Python interpreter just never released memory back to the OS once it had been allocated. That's how much they cared about memory usage.

It was fixed in 2.5.

I have just checked how a Python GUI (GTK) program looks like in memory, and most of its memory usage is libraries (written in C) that its numerous modules load, not the interpreter's data itself. In reduced environment memory usage can be easily reduced as libraries are scaled down.

Re:Java, Java, Java, Java,

[swillden]

(stored in EEPROM, not ROM),

EEPROM is a form of ROM.

Technically, but since smart cards also have true ROM (i.e. not erasable and rewritable), ROM has a different meaning in that context.

with dynamic allocation, garbage collection,

If you use dynamic memory allocation and especially garbage collection while doing encryption of data passing through your card, something must be terribly wrong with your algorithm.

Smart cards do much more than encrypt information passing through them. Actually, they don't do too much of that, other than small bits of data as part of challenge-response protocols.

fairly deep stacks (the biggest consumer of RAM), etc.

If stack is "the biggest consumer of RAM", then you don't use dynamic allocation much.

The heap is in EEPROM. Some applications do use it extensively, though only on cards with JVMs that support GC. Normal procedure for OSes without GC is to do a single large heap allocation during applet installation and then to write your own heap management routines to dole out that space efficiently.

Actually, the biggest reason for avoiding JNI is that it sucks. For the important libraries, though, the JNI drudgery has already been done for you. This is certainly the case on Android.

So what is the benefit compared to C, C++ and Python that not only have those native interfaces but also don't suck at it because this is how those languages are intended to be used?

As compared to C and C++, it's safer and development is easier. Compared to Python, it has better performance.

It accomplishes plenty: The high performance of Java Virtual Machines means that the application code -- you know, the stuff that you download that makes your phone do the cool stuff you want -- runs fast.

Running on an Intel box with 2G of RAM and compared to C++ code written by a Java programmer who believes that C++ is a dialect of Java and writes accordingly -- yes, what was the case with all "proofs" I have seen. Compared to non-crippled native code -- no. In an environment where memory is limited yet the problem requires nontrivial manipulations with it over the course of running the program -- not even comparable.

You're arguing that Python is faster? Find some benchmarks to support that. I can find LOTS that go the other way. Or are you arguing that only native code performs acceptably? As a guy whose favorite language is C++, I'd make that argument, too, except that it's simply not true. Particularly in the context of an open platform like android, the ability of the virtual machine to erect firewalls between applications is going to be crucial for security.

That last point is worth expanding on a little. You know, even on Symbian, Windows Mobile, etc., all of the NFC midlet environments are written in Java, and midlets must be in Java. Why? Because NFC is all about multi-application security and there are huge security benefits to virtual machines. Likely someday we'll put processors with virtualization support into mobile phones (and smart cards) and then we'll be able to apply the benefits of virtualization to native code. Until then, if you want to be able to run code from multiple and potentially untrustworthy sources, with some ability to limit what that code can or cannot do, software VMs and interpreted languages are the ONLY reasonable option.

I don't question the fact that there are good Java programmers. I disagree that "most (anything) programmers are real programmers" because most programmers are actually clueless idiots unless they work in the area specifically inaccessible for clueless idiots

Regardless of whe

Re:Java, Java, Java, Java,

[badkarmadayaccount]

Jython? PyPy? Just wondering.

Re:Java, Java, Java, Java,

[shutdown -p now]

Like I said, Python is inherently constrained as far as optimizations go due to its dynamic semantics. It's stuff like this.

Bad news for the Goog

[heroine]

If that house of pain Motorola gets involved in Android sales, it'll start bleeding it's disasterous management into the Goog's advertising revenue utopia & take the Goog down with it. Anything but a Motorola/Goog partnership. Why not Nokia or GM, or Chrystler?

Exactly

[Britz]

No focus was one of the reasons they went down in the first place. Can someone tell me how many operating systems they had in use for their phones?

Off the top of my head:

1. Some JavaME thing (don't know the name)
2. MotoMAGX
3. Symbian
4. Don't they already have Windows Mobile?
5. P2K (for the low end)

Are there more?

Anyways, they now want to "focus" on "just" three. P2K, Windows, Android. IMHO they should either go for Android or for Windows. If they really want Android (Windows Mobile is a little 90s) they could just buy Windows phones from China and rebrand them for their business customers that need Windows Mobile.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

Motorola cutting the number of OS's from 15 to 3.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/29/motorola_layoffs/

MiniUSB?

[p51d007]

I thought I read somewhere that the "trade group" or whatever group does the standards for wireless phones, voted to make "miniusb" the standard for charging/data? I know I won't buy a phone anymore that does not have a mini usb. My HTC/AT&T tilt has one, and it is so nice not having to carry a cable around everywhere I go, just to connect it to download something.

Sprint Network, However, Is Fast

[meehawl]

And yet Sprint's data bandwidth on EVDO-A through my HTC Titan seems to be around 800 Kbps, and 1.2-2 Mbps when tethered (CPU seems to be limiting factor here). Using the WiFiRouter to share out SPrint's 3G connection to various laptops, I've downloaded torrents at ~DSL speeds. Maybe Sprint's fast network speed is a function of its unpopularity?

Android ok but Windows Mobile (retch)

[Douglas Goodall]

I can't say I am happy to hear that Windows Mobile is gaining more ground and will have trounced Linux on the Motorola platform. It is a sad day for me.

G1 tethered!

[jackspenn]

I want to say that I hope Android can turn Motorola around, but the other reason for this post is to say that yes I was able to tether my G1 to my Vista laptop via USB and am posting from my laptop over the 3G network to /. Wicked cool. How? I am using a proxy server on Android. I was also able to successfully do this over Wifi from my desktop to Android (my desktop has AP settings via the wifi card), so that solution will not work on my laptop. I love my G1 phone. Correction, I love my G1 computer. I don't think there is a reason to ask "Is this the year of the Linux desktop?" every again, that war is over and Windows won, the next war is for the phone/computer/PDA and Android (i.e. Linux based OSes) can kill Windows here. Why fight yesterdays battle, when we can fight tomorrows?