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HP's Fury At Vista Capable Downgrade
More documents are coming out in court proceedings over the Vista Capable debacle. Internetnews.com has good coverage of HP's fury over Microsoft lowering the requirements for a Vista Capable sticker, at Intel's request. "Intel officials may have been pleased that Microsoft lowered standards for obtaining the company's Windows Vista Capable logo program sticker, but the same can't be said about HP's execs. 'I can't be more clear than to say you not only let us down by reneging on your commitment to stand behind the [device driver model] requirement, you have demonstrated a complete lack of commitment to HP as a strategic partner and cost us a lot of money in the process,' said one e-mail from Richard Walker, the senior vice president of HP's consumer business unit, to [Microsoft executives]." PCPro.co.uk follows the trail of accusatory emails inside Microsoft from there: "HP's email prompted then Microsoft co-President, Jim Allchin, to send a furious email of his own to company CEO Steve Ballmer. Allchin's email suggests the decision to lower the requirements was made in his absence by Ballmer, following 'a call between you and Paul [Otellini, Intel CEO].' 'I am beyond being upset here,' Allchin wrote to Ballmer. 'What a mess. Now we have an upset partner, Microsoft destroyed credibility [sic], as well as my own credibility shot.' Ballmer, in turn, blamed another Microsoft executive, Will Poole, in a rather erratically typed reply to Allchin."
You forgot one thing - make it VISIBLE (*cough*Ubuntu*cough*)! If there isn't sufficient marketing push from %OEM%, no matter what you offer pre-installed it'll never gain sufficient foothold against Windows, not even enough to send a message to the MS execs.
That won't just send a message to Microsoft, it would also send a message to the population in general. That message being: Microsoft is fucked, and we have your solution right here. No need to pay the MS tax, we have Linux pre-installed for just a few dollars more, you can sign up for our Linux class. It takes 4 hours for orientation, you get a free training CD, and 3 months support for $75.00
If they do any two or more of the things I've just hinted at, MS might have a really bad year. Redmond is blowing it. They have no back-out strategy from the strong-arm tactics they have been using on manufacturers and retailers. If those deals go sour Redmond will not be an easy place to get a job in IT.
Support NYCountryLawyer RIAA vs People
With Ubuntu, and with netbooks, Linux is gaining some recognition with the public. A big name like HP offers a Linux laptop that you can buy on Amazon.com and in BestBuy, and then suddenly the public will see Linux in a very different light.
HP is in the best position to push a Linux laptop since HP also offers very good Linux printer drivers. One product purchase can drive a complimentary sale.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
only stepping stones on the path to more money.
Then you should have stuck for what you believe and refused to sell underpowered vista machines.
You don't seem to understand what HP "believes in" -- it is making a profit.
When all the other vendors are able to sell underpowered and consequently underpriced vista machines with the same labeling as yours, then hardly anyone is going to buy your comparatively overpriced system. The majority of consumers are not capable of distinguishing between the intel 915 and 935 motherboard chipsets at the retail level. But they are able to recognize a $50 price difference.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
What's even more ironic, is that if they hadn't come up with Vista-Capable, these notebooks would have been stuck on XP. Seeing how a large number of users specifically downgraded to XP on a Vista purchase, I can't see how selling these machines with XP only wouldn't have been (truly) a feature.
It sure is looking to me like Microsoft was in panic mode, different managers and departments were all over the place. The whole thing obviously turned into a feeding frenzy. What this shows you is just how vile and inept the unholy alliances between Microsoft, Intel and the big-name PC manufacturers are. But you know what, these guys long ago sold their souls to Microsoft, basically letting the tail wag the dog, so it's hard to feel sorry for HP. If HP had some serious balls it would simply have said "If you don't step on this shitty Intel chipset, we're going to start pushing in a big way Ubuntu and OpenOffice, and maybe we're even going to throw some R&D dollars at it." HP is a large enough PC maker to make a threat like that quake Redmond's boots.
Instead, while they may have privately bitched, at the end of the day, John Q Consumer was still buying equipment with "Vista Ready" stickers on it, unaware that, whatever the reason, a fair chunk of those computers were anything but.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
The person at the top is ultimately responsible.
Ballmer is the Ringo star of the software industry.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
HP is still responsible for technical support and drivers for every OS they want to support. If HP offered Linux, it would likely be one distro. They went with SUSE in the past, and I happen to dig on openSUSE so that is why I suggested it.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
The average consumer doesn't want to take a Linux class or sit down and watch a training CD. They just want it to work.
Are you under the impression that MS is the only place where this happens? Personal experience tells me that absurd requests for features from high-profile customers, and sales guys who over promise is a problem most anywhere else.
I just don't think most places have the luxury of having a well planned, development driven process.
As much as I'm usually pretty down on MS, I'm just not convinced they're any different in this case.
Cheers
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
The moderation system is a form of mind control, in a way. It works well when there is some balance, as there is, for example, in the capitalism/socialism debates that crop up every now and then. It is also good for dragging people back to reality as a good hard link trumps most other considerations.
We do need to be aware that the Slashdot mod system can sometimes promote groupthink. For example, because the vast majority of Slashdotters are freethinkers (atheists, agnostics, irreligious etc.), as indeed am I, it does tend to drive away or silence those who aren't.
I'm glad someone even skimmed that rambling tirade to find interesting points. The less concise you are, the crazier you sound. Though ranting on about the 'power' of Slashdot does make you sound even more nuts, as it basically has none.
All intents and purposes. Not intensive purposes.
"The average consumer doesn't want to take a Linux class or sit down and watch a training CD."
You need training on any system. My mom called and asks how to copy stuff to a CD. I guess having Windblows didn't save her from needing any training.
Bingo. The main problem with proclaiming that Linux isn't ready for the desktop is that it misses the fact that Windows isn't ready for the desktop either. The technically literate can use both, and the technically illiterate can't use either.
If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
When the vendors are starting to play the "Vista yay" games while everyone else is rolling back Vista to XP at first opportunity.
Example: NVidia fucked over the consumer by making their newest stereo3D drivers not just Vista-only, but also by removing LCD shutter support (meaning you're limited to color-distorting anaglyph red/blue glasses, or really crapass zalman monitors).
check it out.
Next time I upgrade, unless they fix this, NVidia will not even be considered.
Well, Schadenfreude is alive and well in the human heart(and I don't much like MS anyway) so I'm doing some fairly serious smirking about their pain right now. The fact that this is all internal emails from high level guys, loaded with confusion and a downright adolescent level of spelling and grammar, coming out in discovery, just makes it better.
In a slightly more emotionally distanced view, you have to admit that MS's position kinda sucked. They had to make a call, and whichever way they made it, some of their partners stood to lose big. In the end, I think they fucked up and make the wrong(and unethical) call, for which they are being sued. Your level of sympathy for HP depends largely on how much you see them as a willfully blind, idiotic enabler of MS vs. how much you see them as a victim of MS. As for heroes, none available. Everybody here was just grubbing at the money trough. Some were more unethical about it than others; but that is about all you can say.
I nominate this post for the "Most Insightful Post Ever Made in an 'Is Linux Ready For the Desktop?' Topic" award.
HP made one of the classic blunders and believed something that Microsoft had promised them. They then spent all sorts of money to engineer all their low end systems so they would be get the vista capable sticker. After HP had spent all the money, then Microsoft lowered the requirements so all of HP's competitors would also get the vista capable sticker with out having spent all of the money.
The moral of the story is never believe anything anyone who currently works for Microsoft says to you. It might be wise to never believe anything anyone who has ever worked for Microsoft says.
Presumably HP invested resources in more recent chipsets like Intel i945 to support Vista. HP then worried that their sales and/or unit profits would decrease because cheaper Intel i915-based systems would also qualify for "Vista Capable".
Suppose Dell offers a i915-based system for $500, but HP offers a i945-based system for $550. Both have a Vista-capable logo - which one is the unenlightened customer gonna buy?
The average consumer shouldn't be operating a computer.
Uhhh... I believe there was a contractual agreement. I don't know how much you know about contract law, but even verbal agreements are contracts; they are simply more difficult to nail down if there is a problem than written contracts. That's why verbal agreements are usually just a few words and a handshake, something along the lines of "HP promises to use Vista, and Microsoft promises to not lower the requirements for the Vista Capable logo." shake hands, and done. It's completely binding, but chances are it was done in written form anyway.
Hence the reason they are in friggin court dude.
Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
This comment makes me wish I hadn't blown my mod points on the gender gap article. Nailed it. For those of us endlessly doing uncompensated helpdesk work for relatives, the truth of that statement is painfully obvious. I could more easily walk my mother through burning something to CD on Debian than I could on Vista, at this point. I use Debian. Don't use Vista much.
And when they shift from XP to Vista? What's the difference? Both Vista and Linux (assuming either GNOME or KDE) do things differently from XP. Why does Vista get a pass, while Linux doesn't?
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
That could just come right back to bite them on the ass, because it might just piss off Microsoft, and the thing is, Microsoft holds all the cards.
HP needs Microsoft because, Slashdot horde notwithstanding, HP's customers are generally not in the market for a Linux computer, they're in the market for a Windows computer. Offering a Linux option is all well and good, but most customers simply aren't interested.
Most Linux users are happy to install it themselves, and most people who want a pre-built computer complete with OS and software want one that works just like their old one, and just like the one they have at work, and just like every other computer they've ever seen -- which means it runs Windows.
"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein
The parent is referring to the people who haven't learned the system at all. A great many computer "users" are functionally illiterate. They've learned a rote sequence of clicks, and can get confused even when a window comes up in a different location, because they don't actually read the contents of the dialog box, or understand what it means even if they do read it. They just click where they learned to click by size and location. The slightest variation in the expected sequence totally throws them off. For such people, the OS truly is irrelevant. They aren't familiar with the OS. They're familiar with their 3 applications that they use. (Or 2. Or 1.) There are a LOT of such people in the world nowadays. Forced there, as you said, by their employer or educational institution.
That could just come right back to bite them on the ass, because it might just piss off Microsoft, and the thing is, Microsoft holds all the cards.
Only because companies like HP voluntarily hand their cards over to MS.
Somebody has to take the lead, and while they may suffer for it in the short term, the long term looks a whole lot brighter without being beholden to one company that holds are the cards.
Most Linux users are happy to install it themselves, and most people who want a pre-built computer complete with OS and software want one that works just like their old one,
You are definitely describing yesterday's market. Nowadays many, many users are happy with a fully functional web browser. Not a majority, yet, but a significant minority. Look at just how well the linux-based netbooks have been selling as just one example.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Now, to quote you, I have to say "Microsoft has destroyed it's [sic] credibility." Recursive [sic]ing. Happy?
So get on the horn with Dell and Gateway, and talk about how much money they lost, and how if they all went the same route on this, they could reduce their dependence on a vendor that clearly has no regard for their welfare.
Surely you're aware that what you're suggesting is a violation of antitrust laws?
I know, it'd be weird for Microsoft to be on the winning side of an antitrust suit for once, but is that what you really want?
In retrospect, we can ponder what would have happened if MS had stuck with the WDDM requirement. In order to appease Intel and sell more copies of Vista, MS lowered the requirement. According to internal emails this WDDM requirement would mean Intel's exposure of hundreds of millions of dollars (200-400 according to various sources) that they could not sell. This estimation was based on the assumption that consumers would not buy computers with the Intel 915 chipset because they could not upgrade. However, the launch of Vista was less than ideal and this requirement change helped to mar Vista's image. Ironically, those customers that bought computers that were not really Vista Capable probably don't really want Vista anyways because of the problems. In the long run, this decision (with the resulting lawsuit) may have cost Intel and MS more than the original exposure. I guess this is all hindsight but most consumers don't care. They just want their OS to work. Vista/XP/2000/98 whatever it is called.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Dell pays to license codecs and such and includes them in their Ubuntu install. I'm sure HP would do the same.
For a traditional openSUSE install you are literally a one-click installer away from having all the codecs and packages you need for every major "restricted" format.
And while a retailer dealing with an Asus netbook can't provide technical support, when it comes to a big name like HP, they can provide technical support for their products.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
I am a Linux fan and yes I do agree for the most part but I would go with your granny test if you let me set some of the tasks.
Go to BestCircutMartDepot and.
1. Buy an all in one printer.
2. Buy a webcam.
3. Buy a Game.
4. Buy Tax Software.
The problem is a lack of over the counter software and the lack of a stable binary driver interface.
The whole document it and they will write it is a good idea but having the option to stick in on a CD in the box is very handy.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Good point. I'd like to see the moderation system change: when you get mod points, you also get set to browse without seeing anyone else's moderations of articles (threaded still, perhaps, but no sorting by moderation, and ideally without author names or sigs). And of course a "I'm not moderating today" button so you can benefit from the wisdom of others.
On a side note, I take issue with your example. When faith, not reason, influences a thought, that thought should be mocked. Holding people of faith to a lower intellectual standard exemplifies the worst side of Affirmative Action. But I agree with your point--the thought should be mocked because it is ridiculous, not because of groupthink.
"The biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place."
I don't care about Microsoft passing the buck internally, and I doubt HP does either. What's important is that it's HP's buck that MS is passing.
Intel and Microsoft both got more cash by selling out companies trying to sell computers that were actually Vista-ready in favor of more and cheaper units from other vendors whose boxes weren't.
No kidding. I work with people who can efficiently use AutoCAD, which has one of the most complicated and poorly designed interfaces I've ever seen. But at the same time they can't even change their desktop background without help.
An understanding of how a tool actually works is not always important to being able to use that tool well enough to get their job done. To use the dreaded car analogy, understanding how a manual transmission is built and functions might help you use one more effectively and squeeze some extra performance out of your car, but even someone with absolutely no idea of the actual mechanics of a transmission can learn to use one pretty well.
Getting people like this to change their routine is sometimes difficult, and they'll resist it. But once you get them to accept that the change is going to happen (Either because their boss forced them, or their old option is no longer available, or the new choice is 30% cheaper, etc.) They can learn the new stuff.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
I doubt that post had anything to do with Slashdot moderation system or Slashdot groupthink. It looks to me a like a cut-and-paste of some pol with %s/Hated Individual or Group/Slashdot//g
My blog
I hate to be the one to bring reality into this little discussion, but for HP to dump Windows and start selling Linux (or any other OS) instead is really, really stupid.
I admit, I'd buy one. You'd probably buy one, too. But almost everyone else in the known universe wants Windows on their computer. Those that don't are buying Macs. This means that if HP wants to stay alive, they need to sell Vista.
I especially like this piece:
I'd like to see the company that could actually look that far ahead. Investors demand short term profits, and especially in the computer world, a couple of bad years might be enough to kill HP altogether.
It's the unfair result of Microsoft's lock-in, but for the foreseeable future it seems to be pretty much an all or nothing Windows vs. Linux (OK, Dell has Windows vs. [hidden on the back page behind a sign reading "beware of the penguin"], but you get the idea).
Obligatory Soundbite Catchphrase
'Guys' as you put it may mean companies, since both Microsoft and Apple are companies. If that is what you mean then the answer is, Linux is not a company and therefore it's not really an apples to apples comparison.
I like Windows. I like lots of products all over the place. I simply don't like the release terms and the fees and legal threats and the "you don't like it? well that's kind of too bad" attitude many consumers will encounter.
I have the strangely old fashioned view that if I pay someone for something, I should be treated better for it than before I was paying them. In many instances with Microsoft or Apple, the customer may experience restrictions which can be quite insulting and frustrating.
The average user is an idiot and should have never bought a computer. There, I said it. You know you were thinking it too.
I'm not anti-social, I'm anti-idiot.
Maybe since one can change vista to look like XP? The classic interface.
I have deployed over 20 vista machines with the classic start menu and only one person asked why the log on screen was different. They did not ask for any other question. These people have already seen office 2007 on XP so that was the same. these are not major computer programmers or engineers. these are regular secretaries. They use the computer, as long as they have their email, web browser, and can open the documents they are happy.
I did deploy three linux machines with crossover and office 2003 installed. Those people were a little more confused. Once they knew where to start the applications they knew they were fine. So I would say that as long as the OS can run the applications the users are used to, those users could care less what the OS is.
Uh,sorry,but he is dead on the money. I have been working repair shop for nearly 15 years now and I have seen it happen. Their printer dies so they go to Wally World and grab whatever is on sale. They take it home,pop in the CD,and a really cute animation pops up that says "Hi! Congratulations on the purchase of your new super duper all in one from Lexmark! Let us take a few moments to set it up for you!" And then it walks them through with really simple pictures or drawings that show them where to plug it in and what to do.
You see,this is why I gave up on selling Linux Pcs in my shop. Because they get brought back along with a mad customer because it is "broken" because the little animation didn't play with the little helpful lady that walks them through it. Until your average user can walk into ANY Walmart/Best Buy/Staples and pick up ANYTHING on sale there and put in the CD and have the little animation work it is simply too hard for them. And have YOU ever tried getting the crap they sell at Walmart to run in Linux? After spending nearly two damned days trying to get a Lexmark x1270 to print/scan/fax in Linux I just gave up and gave them their money back. There is just too much home junk that works in Windows that is impossible to get to work in Linux.
And nearly all of it if there isn't an installed driver you get told "Bring up Bash" WRONG. The second they have to bring up a CLI you have lost. In all the years I have been working on Windows machines I can count the number of times I have needed to bring up the CLI to fix a problem on one hand. While I often use the CLI to save time,there is almost always a GUI way to do it in Windows. With Linux at the slightest problem you are told "bring up Bash and..." sorry,but if I gave that advice to the average home user the machine would be on my desk the next day. While Linux works in a corporate environment,and it rocks as a server OS,it just doesn't cut it at this time for the SMB and home user markets,which is the markets that corporations like HP consider their bread and butter. Sorry.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
This kind of thing is precisely why a third party should decide on hardware requirements for an operating system. Otherwise, marketing is sure to get in the way of the facts. If only Microsoft had realized this sooner... not only would they have avoided ticking off a business partner, but they may have been more inclined to improve some of Vista's benchmarks so that more machines were "actually" capable of running Vista. But now, they are left with a failed OS and a few less friends. Better luck with Windows 7. HP shouldn't be complaining too much though... they sold plenty of machines as "Vista capable" that had no business running Vista. Selling a machine with half a GB of RAM, and running Vista? There's no excuse for that.
I think you're right, but the big name hardware makers all wanted that "symbiotic relationship" with Microsoft. EG. You supply the OS/software, and we'll supply the hardware. Together, we'll both PROFIT!
It may not be all "love and roses" these days, with Vista not living up to its promises and all. But can you really imagine HP, Dell, or any of that lot suddenly coming out with their OWN operating system, this late in the game, and doing a decent job of it? You know the ONE company who had a shot at it, right? That was IBM, with OS/2, but they blew it too - out of greed, and the attraction of the "simplicity" of just letting Microsoft handle it for them instead.
Say what you will about Apple, but they're the last standing hold-out from the era when all "personal computers" ran operating systems designed by and supported solely by the same companies that made the hardware. (Commodore, Atari, Tandy/TRS-80, etc. etc.)
I hate to be the one to bring reality into this little discussion, but for HP to dump Windows and start selling Linux (or any other OS) instead is really, really stupid.
Who said that? You are just making up a strawman argument.
People are saying that if HP had the cojones, they would push to sell good consumer-grade linux systems. But they are not saying to "dump Windows."
They're equivalent, since if HP started pushing quality consumer-grade Linux systems, MS can respond by simply no longer providing HP with OEM Windows to pre-install. After all, there are many other computer manufacturers that can fill the market space; there's only one MS to get Windows from.
Well... World of Warcraft isn't the greatest example here.
It runs JUST FINE on Linux!
I'm sure it's partially because I had a lot of services running in Windows which I've since moved off onto a separate Linux box. But WoW seems snappier for me in Linux. But then, I was running via OpenGL on Windows as well. Your mileage may vary.
Linux vs. Windows is still a difficult question of tradeoffs for many. I've finally switched from multi-booting primarily in Windows to staying on Linux most of the time. Still cannot get any number of things working. As much as possible, knocking them out one by one slowly. But this is offset by compiz, PulseAudio and any number of nice things. Finally the pros have outweighed the cons by enough margin to keep me here.
The real problem is how ignorant the masses are. Most people just cannot believe you can get applications such as OpenOffice for free. Most have NO IDEA of the wealth of applications available. There will always be many people who cannot, will not or do not want to shoulder the responsibility of managing your own system that really is a part of running Linux. But I really feel there are TONS of folk who'd switch if they knew what was there.
I think it's fair to criticise people for believing something entirely because other people happen to believe it, but isn't this also exactly how organised religion works? Why do you believe in God if it's not simply because other people, family, preachers, society, a book, etc, have told you that God exists? Do you see this as different somehow from people who don't believe in God because those around them don't?
I can see how one might come to a conclusion that there's a lot we still don't know about the universe, but I have trouble seeing how that space can be filled with the views of any particular organised religion unless it's as a direct consequence of deciding to do so based on faith.
At least from what I've heard, advocates of religion and Christianity in particular tend among the first to agree that it's based on faith and on making assumptions about things. I accept people's right to make assumptions, but where possible I personally prefer to acknowledge what I don't know and leave it at that.
At least MS and Redhat recognize onboard raid when you install them. Ubuntu doesn't; you have to download a text installer and even then it doesn't always work. Ubuntu also doesn't support wireless technology worth a shit; it's easier to get it working on fedora for shits sake, even with the rpm hell. You need to suggest a credible alternative to Windows. You may not like it, but MS does have way more driver support and no need to worry about what is GNU compliant, and no weenies yelling "It's not open source!!!" every time they offer a driver that will make using your computer a load easier. The problem is dogmatic dickheads more concerned with some unreachable idea than with letting people be able to use their tools instead of insisting on knowing how to build them.
The problem is a lack of over the counter software and the lack of a stable binary driver interface.
First one is a non-problem. Windows doesn't have a package manager with 10000 programs either.
Second statement is false. Linux can still run a.out programs from 1991. Last time I checked Win64 still couldn't run a 32-bit browser plugin from last week.