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Is Open Source Software a Race To Zero?

gozunda writes "My company is an open source software vendor/developer. We maintain a popular open source project and keep ourselves afloat by producing commercial products derived from or extending the value of the core project. Over time we've seen our business model eroding as other open source projects produce free versions of the same extensions and utilities that are our bread and butter. Something that was worth $5K last year is suddenly worth $0 because the free version is just as good as the paid. This same cycle is obviously having an impact on pure-play commercial software vendors. Is open source ultimately a race to zero? In ten years will there be any cost associated with commodity (non-custom) software? If not, will there still be a 'software industry' as it exists today, or will software simply be a by-product of the operation of other industries? Is that a good thing or a bad thing? As a professional developer, do I need to fear this or feed it?"

66 of 729 comments (clear)

  1. Yes, and there's nothing new with that by KingSkippus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is open source ultimately a race to zero?

    Yes, and there's nothing new with that.

    Just because your software is open source doesn't mean that you get to sit on your duff and collect money off your paid extensions in perpituity. Just like any other software company, if you want to keep food on your metaphorical table, you've got to continue to innovate and improve. Otherwise, just like any other software company, your competitors (in this case, open source develoeprs) will eat your metaphorical lunch.

    For what it's worth, though, nothing would be different if your software were closed source, except that your user base would probably be smaller and, depending on how necessary your software is, open source competitors would be even more eager to push you out.

    1. Re:Yes, and there's nothing new with that by eddy_crim · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Imagine if there was no open source. You would still have competitors and they would still be undercutting you. Remember the cost of reproducing software on CD or download is effectively negligible. So perhaps your competitors would sell for a dollar or whatever. The problem is the same. Keep innovating, sell something people want and the best possible price. Unless your selling something tangable its always going to be a race to zero for the item itself.

      Working for an IBM business partner i see constant erosion of the products i work with by OSS. This means IBM must keep moving the products forward which i guess is a good thing.

      --
      hmmm.
    2. Re:Yes, and there's nothing new with that by nine-times · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think you're right, and the idea of "copyright" in general is headed towards some kind of reform over the long term. Eventually we'll find ourselves in a world where it's not sufficient to have done some valuable work at some point, and then sit around and collect money for the rest of your life.

      Now I don't know how long people will be able to hold that off, but I think it's just a matter of time. I don't think copyright is going away, but it's either going to be restructured or it's going to be ignored, as it's already starting to be ignored.

      Lots of people used to ask whether FOSS could compete with proprietary software. I remember reading lots of people ask, "Will Linux be able to catch up to Windows?" I haven't seen that in a while, and for good reason. I think the fact that lots of people can contribute and no one ever really has to start from scratch means more consistent progress. So if you're a developer and your livelihood is based around building a highly in-demand software and sitting on old innovations, while hoping that FOSS won't catch up, you'll eventually find yourself in trouble.

      So now to the big worry-- how are developers going to make money? I'm not sure. There will be demand for software development, and where there's demand, there's money to be made. I don't know if it's through support and services alone, or if there's something else. Maybe you just have a shorter term to make your money, and that term starts when you offer a new innovation first, and ends when other people get around to offering it.

      ...will eat your metaphorical lunch.

      I thought we were drinking metaphorical milkshakes now.

    3. Re:Yes, and there's nothing new with that by novalis112 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The only problem with your rational is that if all the competition was from commercial entities, and not from people willing to work without compensation, then the bottom line would not be zero. Yes, competition would force the price lower, but the limit would be considerably nonzero. In theory all the competitors but one would eventually be weeded out as the company with the most efficient infrastructure (assuming the product quality was equal amongst all competitors) managed to sell the product for the lowest possible price while still maintaining the ability to pay for its business costs.

    4. Re:Yes, and there's nothing new with that by wisty · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If you are not innovating, then you and your competitor can drop prices until it is effectively zero. Commodity software eventually drops to zero with or without open source. Innovative design is worthwhile. Besides, how many engineers do you see out of work because they can't design a better bridge?

    5. Re:Yes, and there's nothing new with that by nine-times · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't see a particular reason to drag OSX into this, but fine, it only goes to illustrate the point. Apple was able to make OSX such a successful OS as quickly as it did only because it was able to build off of an open source base. Darwin is based on BSD Unix, Webkit is based on KHTML, and OSX is packed full of GNU tools.

      But also I think Linux has become very competitive with both OSX and Windows. It seems like it supports a greater variety of hardware then either, it's just as easy to install, and it really is easy to use and attractive. The major downside to Linux that I see is still application availability, but I think that will only last for so long.

    6. Re:Yes, and there's nothing new with that by Richard+W.M.+Jones · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So now to the big worry-- how are developers going to make money? I'm not sure. There will be demand for software development, and where there's demand, there's money to be made.

      Agreed 100%. It's just like being, say, a builder. Is it a terrible thing if you build a house and then let the public live in it without paying you a fee every time they enter? Is that putting honest builders out of business? Will builders starve? Erm, no, because new houses are constantly needed, and old houses are constantly repaired and replaced.

      Rich.

    7. Re:Yes, and there's nothing new with that by Bert64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There will always be a need for developers, there just won't be a need for developers of shrink wrap software. Your job will be the same, the company you work for will just use the code you write for a different purpose...
      RedHat employ lots of developers, and most of the code they write is published for free, but it's designed to sit alongside their support offerings. Who better to provide top level support for a product than one of the original developers?

      Also most developers these days are employed to do bespoke development inside organizations, and development of this kind is likely to increase... Larger or more technical companies have their own internal applications, and with more prevalent open source companies will be more able to modify existing applications to better suit their needs.

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    8. Re:Yes, and there's nothing new with that by Hal_Porter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In a closed source for-profit world, the price rapidly sinks to the marginal cost per copy. Which is zero.

      No it doesn't. Movies, music and software have always been priced way above the marginal cost per copy, mostly because that isn't the 'true price'. If you spend money on developing software, making a movie or promoting a band you expect to sell that product above the marginal cost to get back the investment and make a profit on top. If the profit was less than you'd get from investing it at base rate you might as well have left the money in a bank somewhere and saved yourself the trouble.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    9. Re:Yes, and there's nothing new with that by bahamat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      For what it's worth, though, nothing would be different if your software were closed source, except that your user base would probably be smaller and, depending on how necessary your software is, open source competitors would be even more eager to push you out.

      Which explains all of those open sourced calendaring solutions that beat the pants off of Exchange. Oops, there aren't any that even come close. Oh well, so much for that idea.

    10. Re:Yes, and there's nothing new with that by zappepcs · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Whoa there nelly. Linus got rewards for his efforts. Many people are getting rewarded. The race is to equilibrium, not zero. The price of functional software had long been inflated. That is not taking RMS's stance either.

      There are trade-offs in the software business and RedHat, Mozilla, and others have shown that it's possible to work in that paradigm.

      Some of this argument seems to be based on a notion that all work must be rewarded, and that the reward MUST be monetary in nature. It does not always work that way. Cellular companies are willing to give you a phone if you sign up for a contract. That's free right?

      Skydiving analogy: You can buy a parachute rig, or use one that is given to you freely. Now, all things equal you can choose to pack it yourself or pay someone to do it for you professionally. Staying on point, the free one can be modified and changed, the one you had to pay for can only be changed/modified with parts from the original vendor. So with either rig you pay to get it packed, but with the pay-for rig you are locked into their cost paradigm. Which rig is more useful?

      Sure, you want to make sure that the rig you choose will do the job and perform in the manner you require. With both rigs being equal, which do you choose? Some will choose the pay for model because they can blame someone if the rig fails. Others know that if you don't check your rig regularly and maintain it, it will fail no matter where you got it from.

      This race is not to zero but it will force Microsoft and others to re-evaluate how they build and distribute software products. You only have to look at Sun and IBM to see that they are on track with the need to change. Whether they are making wise decisions is yet to be seen, but they are embracing the changes rather than fight them tooth and nail by creating their own standards and fighting against open standards.

      The race is toward equilibrium. No matter whether a user pays for Windows or steals a copy. They end up paying to get the machine tuned and fixed. OSS just gives them the opportunity to do it themselves to skip the initial costs and lockin. F/OSS does not have a zero operating cost, but it's MUCH lower than other options.

      One of the things that has destroyed the lattice work of market forces in software is Microsoft itself. They bundled so much software for free with their OS that nobody else could afford to compete. Those that could had to give away their product... and the non-monetary reward system was born. People started doing it for the luls or reputation of doing better than MS, or simply from the need to have better than MS. Some people are like that, and are happy to give it away if you have to see their name every time the app starts. The more that MS bundled, the more others did. They squeezed out the small players. Now we are racing towards equilibrium again. se la vie

    11. Re:Yes, and there's nothing new with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Historically, this isn't the case -- because software is especially prone to monopolies, due to network effects.

      What tends to happen is some big-name player would find that some small company sells a product which is a natural complement to their own. They would move into the space, develop their own complement, and give it away for free (because it increases demand for their flagship). Small company goes out of business, because they can compete with cheap competitors, but not free competitors. Or just as often, they get bought by the monopoly, who gets even stronger.

      Microsoft did it to Netscape. Google did it to Kiko. Google tried to do it to Youtube with Google Video, and then gave up and bought Youtube anyway. Also, look at any company that Microsoft or Google has bought.

      When you're trying to sell something that complements an operating system or internet service (which covers pretty much all consumer desktop/web software these days), you're going to be square in the crosshairs of people selling operating systems and internet services. Open-source doesn't change this: either way, they're coming for you. You just need to be a lot better, because it's only a matter of time before Microsoft/Google/(pick your huge competitor) writes a free-as-in-beer one.

    12. Re:Yes, and there's nothing new with that by Bjorn_Redtail · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You pay by watching/listening to the ads. (Though, radio is something of a special case due to how copyright is set up)

    13. Re:Yes, and there's nothing new with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I agree with you, but their is one exception. Entertainment. Entertainments software is the end product. That doesn't mean you are not right, because for all intents and purposes you are.

    14. Re:Yes, and there's nothing new with that by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Man, those are some bad examples.

      Most big name pop bands don't make a dime off their first hit album. Its only their 3rd or 4th hit album where their contract has expired and they are able to renegotiate based on how much money their work has earned for someone else. And the reason that is so is precisely because of the 'lotto-winner' effect of the current system which is directly caused by the stranglehold that copyright gives distributors.

      On the flip side, Rowling definitely didn't need even 0.01% of that money in order to keep writing more books. From a society's point of view, all the money in excess of what was required for her to continue writing was wasted and could have been spent better elsewhere on hundreds of other promising writers that have now been crowded out of the marketplace by the harry potter monster. Similarly look at how Lucas has squandered his royalties. Sure he made a handful of good films, but all he really makes now are "just" films. How much more utility would society get for its money if it weren't squandered on things like 'The Clone Wars' and the Ewok Christmas Special that coast on the good name of his earlier works?

      People often say that those who work for royalties "sit around and collect money when doing nothing"
      Those same people are the ones taking a daily wage for all those years when those royalty guys worked their asses off for zero salary, to try and get to that point.

      Your implication is tantamount to arguing for taxation without representation. Royalties and copyright are a 100% consensual construct of society, thus every member of society has just as much right to criticize the system. If anything, it is those who benefit directly from the system who should have the least say in how the system is run. The last hundred years or so of copyright extensions and copyright scope creep demonstrate what happens when those with a vested interest are the ones who have the most say.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    15. Re:Yes, and there's nothing new with that by Repossessed · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem is that OSS doesn't innovate anything; they just re-implement other people's ideas.

      The developers for Firefox, Python, bash, JBOSS, Apache, Perl, KDE (and qt in general), Gnome, WINE, Linux (the kernel, not the OS), gcc, emacs, kate, Battle for Wesnoth, Sun Microsystems, bittorrent, gnutella, the TCP/IP stack your windows box is using, SDL, speakup, ReiserFS, Second Life, Creative Labs, Intel, countless reverse engineered drivers and blender would all likely have something to say about that.

      --
      Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite (TM)
    16. Re:Yes, and there's nothing new with that by ScentCone · · Score: 3, Insightful

      those who benefit directly from the system who should have the least say in how the system is run

      Let me guess ... Obama voter?

      To follow your logic, people who don't work at all should be the ones who get to say what someone who's willing to work 80 hours a week must do with the proceeds and output of that work. You are supporting a framework in which willingness to work is punished by submitting the worker to the whim of the non-worker. You are supporting a framework in which the ability to create something or to innovate means automatic slavery to those with less talent and motivation.

      "Society" benefits just fine from an author hitting a resonent note and producing a series of books like Rowling's. It benefits by demonstrating that there is the prospect of being well rewarded for sparking an interest in one's work, and prolificly persuing that audience. Your model - where some entity takes the audience's willingness to spend money on entertainment they want, and spreading that money around a 1000 other authors - is absurd on the face of it.

      The Ministry Of Entertainment might accidentally get it right once in a while, but the knowledge that a government agency is injecting itself between readers and writers and regulating that relationship - that might please you, but it all it would do for me is make me seek out authors willing to work for the reward of my wanting to pay them for their writings. Those who spend their day writing books while receiving their assigned sliver of the book-buying public's government mandated redistribution of entertainment funds don't strike me as the likeliest sources of what I want to read.

      Most big name pop bands don't make a dime off their first hit album.

      Unless, of course, they are clearly talented enough strike a deal more to their liking, and are able to show that it's not a risk for the people fronting the money. Most new entertainers can't demonstrate that sort of marketability, and they themselves know it, so they make an investment in their own success: they trade some early income in exchange for letting someone else take the early risks.

      How much more utility would society get for its money if it weren't squandered on things like 'The Clone Wars' and the Ewok Christmas Special that coast on the good name of his earlier works?

      Well, that sort of depends on how wisely that money is spent, and how concentrated it is on larger, more complex projects that require long-term funding during production. I'm curious which agency of the government you think should decide such things? Perhaps we can get Michael Moore to be Minister Of Good Taste And Wholesome Entertainment to direct those dollars and choose which artists are worthy? Yesiree, Change We Can Believe In!

      Or, are you just pissy because the consuming public is fickle and lazy, and you don't always love the choices they make, and think that it should be up to you, instead? Yeah, I thought so.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    17. Re:Yes, and there's nothing new with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "Commodity market can go to 0 without a significant impact on global IT economy, because even now 9 out of 10 programmers work for non-IT companies."

      9 out of 10? I like how you blithely dismiss 10% of the workforce. I know slashdotters don't give a damn about others, but 10% job loss is HUGE.

    18. Re:Yes, and there's nothing new with that by kandela · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes well, if all you did was code open source then all the only table you could afford would be metaphorical.

      I'm not a programmer (I'm a scientist), but I do worry that the propensity of open source means we, as a society, undervalue the work that programmers do.

      Just because someone enjoys furthering a project does that mean we should not remunerate them for their work? A good piece of software is just as valuable as any other product on the market. But since it is easy to copy and available for all to build on, the people who write the code get paid very little - if at all.

      Don't get me wrong. I like open source. I use open source software sometimes and they are usually really great programs. I just don't think programmers are being adequately rewarded for their labour. If all software goes open source then why would anyone do a university course in software development?

      So what's the solution? Should there be a guild of programmers that is given grants by governments and industry to work on certain projects? So that they apply for funding the same way scientists do? Is this an idea that is fundamentally flawed?

      --
      Conservation of angular momentum makes the world go round.
    19. Re:Yes, and there's nothing new with that by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 2, Insightful

      10% of all workers losing their jobs would be huge. 10% of software developers losing their jobs, not so much. Would be significant if it happened all at once, but it won't.

    20. Re:Yes, and there's nothing new with that by Kadin2048 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Creating custom software will always be a good business plan, and it actually gets better rather than worse as more applications become subsumed by FOSS.

      Instead of trying to sell software products, which basically just treats compiled code like manufactured widgets and developers like skilled factory workers, you sell your labor.

      I think that in the very long run, while there will always be some market for widget-like commercial software, it will be dwarfed by the "service sector" software industry (if it's not already) which will employ far more programmers.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    21. Re:Yes, and there's nothing new with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The idea behind open source is NOT that the programmers work for free. The idea is that people and organizations who find value in a project work collaberatively to maintain and enhance the project and share the results.

      For example, for Linux, far more than half of the contributors (I don't remember the exact percentage, but it is very high) work for companies that either use Linux in their main business or make a business of offering support for Linux. The situation is similar for some other major open source projects. Certainly there are many unpaid contributors to open source projects, especially some of the smaller ones, but I don't know the percentage taken across all open source projects.

      So, at least for the major open source projects, the work of the programmers is not being undervalued. Their employers pay them to contribute because the result of sharing the work is far more valuable to each company than the cost of each company's contribution. And the value is more than just the saving of license fees. One of the values many don't recognize is the freedom to fix a problem that is critical to you. You can have your in-house people (or hire someone outside) fix it without waiting on the vendor of a closed-source product.

      I don't know anything about the specific project discussed in TFA, so I don't know whether there is something about that project or the market it supports that distorts the general way that open source works. I'm mostly reacting to your general assertion that open source undervalues programmers' work. I claim it does nothing of the sort.

      As others have pointed out over the years, the superiority of open source is very similar in some ways to the way open publishing of scientific results works better than everyone trying to keep research to themselves. You should appreciate that, being a scientist yourself.

  2. commodity software by Uzik2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Personally I don't see there being a lot of value in paying for new versions of spreadsheets and word processors over and over again. There's not much, to me anyway, that's been added in the past 10 years. It keeps M$'s revenue stream high but is there value to me?

    If software became more about producing new product instead of reworking the same old stuff in the language of the month I would be happy and I think there would be just as many jobs.

    That's all strictly opinion, with no facts to support it.

    --
    -- Programming with boost is like building a house with lego. It's a cool but I wouldn't want to live in it
    1. Re:commodity software by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Oh contraire, there are plenty of facts to support your opinion. Software does not age the way hardware does. There are systems out there that have been running the same software, on newer and newer hardware, for decades, because the code does exactly what it needs to do and there is nothing new that can be added. As an example, look at any of the uptime pissing contests that occur on Slashdot, and see some of the VMS and mainframe examples that people bring up. Companies charge yearly fees for such software simply because there is no other way to keep their revenue stream up when they produce such solid, no-need-to-upgrade code.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
  3. Your business model is wrong... by tgatliff · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You are correct with the race to zero when you talk about developed code... The more time that goes by, the more it will erode existing code bases.

    As far how to deal with it... Change your business strategy to help your users more. Meaning, instead of selling code, consider working on a support model where you offer support and monitoring services to your user base. Also, another good strategy is a hosted approach. Meaning, maybe you can offer connectivity to your users...

    In the long-term there is little doubt in my mind that that proprietary software will be mostly obselete for a number of reasons. First is certainly cost, but security and quality are good other reasons. As a comany you can either change or die. The choice is yours..

    1. Re:Your business model is wrong... by jshindl · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've heard this argument before. "proprietary software will be mostly obselete for a number of reasons"

      In a world of ideals, perhaps that would be true. But the real world contains a lot of factors other than ideals. If that mantra was true, how do you explain the success of Windows against Linux on the desktop. Linux has been around for 27 years, and has almost no market share among non-techies. How about Microsoft Office versus OpenOffice? How about in the world of games... can you think of one successful open source title? In the Web design arena, is GIMP used as much as Photoshop? Is there any usable competition to Dreamweaver?

      I'm sure this is going to be flame bait...
      Jason Shindler
      Curvine Web Solutions
      www.curvine.com

  4. Open Source, you're doing it wrong by Darkness404 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The problem is OSS businesses are doing things the wrong way. Rather than do it Red Hat's and some business's way of adding in features in the community version they instead make the community version spartan and the paid one with support oozing with features, naturally this makes it a great target for some weekend coder to take that version and reverse-engineer or just get the source of the paid version and add it to the free version. Paid versions = Stable versions, community versions = unstable versions. Keep that in mind and your business will not have the community rebelling and forking your project every other month.

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
  5. So it goes. by ZorbaTHut · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The world provides no guarantee that you can forever be profitable at the thing you currently make money on.

    Many years ago, people spent their lives painstakingly copying books. Today, we have printers that can do the same thing at a tiny, miniscule fraction of the cost.

    More recently, people made money doing repetitive calculations, over and over again, and compiling the results into books. Now, obviously, computers can do it faster, cheaper, and more reliably.

    Perhaps you're used to writing operating systems for a living. Well, operating systems are now valuable enough that people are willing to spend effort to make them free - CEOs realized, hey, I *could* spend $100,000 on licenses of an operating system. Or, I could spend the equivalent amount of money by taking an existing operating system and improving it for me . . . and for all future users . . . and then not have to spend $100,000 on next year's licenses, but instead just spend a relatively tiny amount of money maintaining our local patches.

    And, hell, I could submit those to the central repository too. And now they'll maintain it for us.

    Here's what it all comes down to. The core software in a computer is now too important to pay for. If you pay for it once, that implies you can be asked to pay for it again . . . and again, and again, and again . . . and if it's that important, you may simply have no choice. You don't want to contract out the necessities to someone who can withhold them on a whim - you want them available to you, for free, whenever you desire.

    I don't know about you, but if I had to pay some dude $50 every time I wanted to flush my toilet, I'd be buying my own toilet with free flushes pretty damn fast. And, at the risk of stretching the analogy, I think people are tired of putting up with Microsoft's - or any other large company's - shit.

    --
    Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
  6. Your company needs to remodel it's thinking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Honestly,
        the way to go is to have it be open source, and then your company should be willing to 'contract out' and do customizations on demand for their clients. I do a lot of customization of my company's software (nobody likes it 100% out of the box, no software ever does things just the way the client wants). If your company charges for customizations, then you build up a base of customizations. If you find that 20% of your customer base wants the same customization, just incorporate it into the build. If it's only 1 customer, it's not worth including. Think of it as sort of a Darwin inspired method of evolving your application. Those changes that are needed bring in money, and the more money brought in the more likely a change get's added to the base code. Then more customization requests come in, and the cycle repeats. Unlike M$ where M$ decides what you want and then rams it down your throat with a dirty toilet plunger (sorry, all I can think of to equate to Vista).

  7. Broken/borked business model? by zotz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "My company is an open source software vendor/developer. We maintain a popular open source project and keep ourselves afloat by producing commercial products derived from or extending the value of the core project."

    If I understand this correctly I think the business model is what would keep me away in the first place.

    I am happy for "the same code base" to be available gratis with no pro support or for a fee with pro support, or free with paid pro support available.

    But since one of motivations for operating in the Free software realm is to get myself out from under the vendor lock in problem, your business model makes me mistrust you. And note that this is not a case of wanting everything gratis as there is a situation I know of now where we cannot consider moving to the Free software option because currently there is a Free software option but it does not have the needed paid for support option at a competitive price that we are aware of.

    I still think there be to be some future for industry association funded software development and support. But perhaps I am way off base on this as it has seemed obvious to me for years and I have seen no move towards this in all that time.

    Now, if the world can get all to software it could need "developed" gratis by people who get a kick out of it so much the better but somehow I think that people will be able to get paid to develop software for a good long time to come. Getting paid for a monopoly on producing and distributing copies of software is another matter.

    all the best,

    drew
    --
    http://zotz.kompoz.com/

    --
    FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
  8. No, the base software is open. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And since the base is open, the investment in time required to make a competitive product is just the extension itself. Usually something a motivated user can and will do.

    And no, it's not a bad thing. But it does mean a changing business model. I really don't think there will be much in the way of pure play software businesses in the future. I also think the "support" model is a mirage.

    Software will be what it has always been for me and many others... a necessary component of a larger system or product that does have a barrier to entry (for me, that's embedded systems).

    1. Re:No, the base software is open. by loufoque · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If the cost of making the extension yourself is far lower than that of buying the extension, then obviously it's the price of the extension that is much too high.

      And that's what the problem with that kind of things is in practice, extensions are priced much more than their real value to amortize the cost of the main product.
      The solution is simple: just price the extensions correctly. If that means your extensions become super cheap, then why not make extensions that are actually valuable?

    2. Re:No, the base software is open. by mikeb · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't think that support is a mirage at all. Many customers will pay for support - I've been in numerous meetings where I say something like "You can have RedHat for xxx per year or Fedora free" and it's the last bit that scares them.

      We could have a philosophical debate about how long customers will pay for support on software with a low price tag but my bet is it will be at least until we no longer have to care about it.

      If the software is worth having - i.e. has a nonzero benefit to the customer - then it has a negotiable support price. How much would they lose if it stopped working? Between that figure and zero is what they will pay per year to not have it stop. The more it's worth to them the more they will happily pay as an insurance policy let alone to guarantee access to updates.

      Until you have been in those meetings negotiating the prices it's hard to get a grasp on how much that means to many customers and how delighted they are to be able to pay someone.

      Remember, if the system goes down and they are summoned to talk to higher management who ask "how much were we paying in support for this stuff" - and their answer is "we didn't pay for support" then that's their job on the line. Senior management will not be impressed by that reply.

      So for many customers if nothing else it's ensuring that they keep their jobs and it's not coming out of their pockets. There is a budget for support and it has to be spent with someone.

  9. Innovation is harder than you think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    How many of you have been in the situation where you had to productize software and support a family based on this? It's hard. It's a lot harder than than simply checking features into an OSS project.

    Speaking as someone who was a partner in a non FOSS startup company (successful), someone who has an a Cs degree and an MBA, and someone who has actually researched OSS business models, it is my opinion that FOSS projects drive down the demand for software as a product faster than innovators can productize. FOSS also creates the expectation that software should just be free. People don't want to pay for Microsoft or for whatever you are building. And FOSS is trans-national. FOSS makes it incredibly easy to outsource high paying US software jobs to developing nations that charge 1/3 the salary. This again makes it cheaper for the consumer but ultimately discourages developers from innovating based on the profit motive.

    FOSS is an incredibly powerful and disruptive force in the high tech global economy. But it's unfortunate that FOSS is actually eroding the future jobs of the developers who contribute to it. Think ahead 20 or 30 years. Do you want to be trying to support a family, paying a mortgage, putting several kids through college while competing against salaries of developers in India, China, Vietnam, etc while they provide cheap services based on FOSS? An unhappy but highly likely scenario.

    It does seem economically that FOSS can encourage a race to the bottom of software develop salaries in developed countries.

    1. Re:Innovation is harder than you think by Curien · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If an innovation can be easily duplicated by hobby coders, or a bunch of outsourced code monkeys, it was not much of an innovation.
      The hardest part of innovation is coming up with a good idea. Implementing the idea is often the easy part.

      And here's hoping that intelligent, capable, and dedicated individuals can contribute to CS -- no matter where they were born.
      Amen.

      --
      It's always a long day... 86400 doesn't fit into a short.
    2. Re:Innovation is harder than you think by kz45 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Second, I don't see the point of FOSS helping to move labor overseas. The reason labor moves overseas is because it is cheaper. Period. Not because the product is based on FOSS."

      Good software takes time, effort, and skill. If good developers give out all of their work in open source form for free, companies won't need to hire the intelligent engineers. They will only need to find people that are good enough to create addons or additions (and pay them significantly less). Open source developers are putting themselves out of a job.

      "Also, it's terribly hard to imagine that contributing to FOSS will affect my job 20-30 years in the future. "

      Even right now I can see open source effecting my job. The last two companies could have hired more developers, but didn't because we used open source instead. in 10 years, this will be the case in more situations. Not to mention that younger business owners will be more tech savvy.

      "What software are you aware of that was developed in 1978 that is still in heavy demand today?"

      In 1978, the open source community was not strong and thriving. We also didn't have the Internet. If you look at any linux distro, most of the core utilities derived from software written in the 1970s. (X-windows started in 1987 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System)

      "The whole hardware/software industry is constantly moving forward, perhaps faster now than it would have without FOSS. You'll have to explain how FOSS is eroding future jobs."

      FOSS in itself, keeps us using the same software. VNC is a good example. 99% of all remote-control software on the internet for sale is based on VNC. Most developers figure it is easier to use a free, existing solution than spend 6 months+ creating a new protocol.

  10. Re:From reading Techdirt... by peragrin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    except the last stage never happens. As companies don't like change, they can't see their software is worth less over time.

    Supply and demand fails for software as the cost of one copy isn't very different than a million copies. Unlike dell for each unit sold costs money to make, Software only costs you once to make.

    The only thing that makes software less valuable is a better version.

    --
    i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
  11. Specialize by Cogneato · · Score: 2, Insightful

    One of the big keys to making money off of software is specialization. Great versions of most any type of general program can be found in open source form. However, projects that develop for very specific needs of many different industries are often perpetually stuck at a fledgling stage. When you address the very specific needs of a certain type of user, it is easy to find markets that can be profitable for commercial software, while at the same time not being widely interesting enough to be addressed by the open source community.

  12. inevitable by wasabii · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Well, some of this is inevitable, and something you can't change. People are spending time writing free software, and it will undercut commercial software... and you can't stop these people. The fundamental problem is pretty much exactly as MS says it. A commercial software is written, extensive R&D is done on the target market in order to design it, it's released, and a year later somebody else has simply copied the idea. It goes to show that the SOFTWARE isn't the important part there. It's the IDEA. This is why MS makes claims about innovation all the time. Most of the industry already knows this, and their solution is simple: protect the idea. Patents. And you know what? I can't think of any better idea. The alternative is to let it continue. Maybe that is an alternative. The best we can do then is guess about the future... will people just stop investing in R&D? I don't know for sure. And if you're idealogically against patents for some reason, well... I can't help you! There are some people ideaologically against private property ownership at all. I can't help them either. =)

  13. Wrong, very wrong by jsse · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Really, I'm surprised you still selling opensource solutions without being driven out of the market.

    I didn't say you should switch to closesource. My friends' companies develop with, on, from opensource projects and still make profit with them. Why? Because they know how to keep up with the market.

    They sell Appliances, like those CISCO routers and Checkpoint firewall, but perform some other functions like MTA, Virus scanner, load balancers, etc.. Appliances with opensource elements in them, such that they can be trademarked and brand-protected, can be maintained, without paying huge royalty. Above all, you can still contribute opensource projects back to the community, and keep it growing.

    This is just one example to make use of opensource projects. Honestly I don't really know your business so I don't have further suggestion for you. But I'm very sure the problem doesn't lie in adopting opensource projects. Someone else makes money with them, if you can't, don't blame opensource projects, blame your marketing strategy.

  14. Plumbing by Kupfernigk · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Do you remember when it took real skill to be a plumber? To attach a faucet to a pipe, you had to be able to melt solder and shape it with tools while using a kerosene-fueled blowtorch. Get it wrong and you melted the lead pipe. Putting in a faucet was half a day's work. When it froze, pipes split and had to be cut out and repaired, also at vast expense. The training to do all the jobs was expensive and took years.

    Now go round the hardware store. In ours there are several kinds of push fit and screw fit plumbing. The pipe is plastic, you cut it with a simple little tool. I recently had to replace the water softener and the new one had different plumbing. It took me nearly half an hour to put in four bends and a few joints.

    That's the race for the bottom. Basic plumbing skills now take a day to acquire and, by following the instructions, you can do a safe job. But plumbers are still employed. I'm not about to service my boiler, or install a bath. I have more sense than to try to put in an oil tank and all the safety equipment, following all the codes.

    It's like that with software. It is not a race for the bottom, it is called progress. An SMTP server is now a basic piece of kit. The learning curve for spreadsheet design is, basically, over. Unlike the so-called creative arts, engineering does not recognise the idea that somebody should be rewarded forever for a one-off contribution. In a knowledge society, new knowledge has value but old knowledge is free.

    Eventually, kicking and screaming, I expect we will get Open Source Law, and so-called lawyers will no longer be able to charge excessively for basic legal advice in simple cases. But specialist lawyers and the Supreme Court will still be needed, because there will still be hard cases. The same should really apply to all professions. And if you want a guaranteed source of income, make something essential that wears out. Grow food, make clothes or shoes.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
  15. Re:Value by cgenman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Can I just say that as a user the "survive on service" model makes me uncomfortable. We're disencentivizing making robust, easy-to-use software in exchange for one that requires some degree of brokenness to survive. I'd rather pay someone for their software than being stuck with their services because their software is somehow unintelligible.

         

  16. Re:You're doing it wrong by PinkPanther · · Score: 4, Insightful
    But that way of thinking is also fraught with backward thinking too. If the core is a paid for product, then you won't get a large userbase (unless you create *fantastic* software). If you have a large userbase, then supporting them and creating a user community is just icing on the cake...you've already got a good base.

    The benefit of OSS is that you can establish and grow a base very quickly. Successful OSS companies leverage the fact that people can download and try their s/w on their own timeline. You leverage that fact as the main marketing tool, with people posting to /. and writing up in trade rags about this cool new project to check out.

    Once the s/w gets a footprint with the costumer, they recognize the value of it and now want customizations and/or support because the s/w has VALUE only after they've played with it.

    The model you are proposing is about increasing VALUE only after they have bought into the core product.

    --
    It's a simple matter of complex programming.
  17. Is Open Source Software a Race To Zero? by thethibs · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As is often the case...it depends.

    If you are working on software that's of interest to developers, someone who can will almost certainly build a FOSS version of it rather than pay you. With a few very notable exceptions, FOSS development is essentially self-serving. On the other hand, if your product is aimed at a non-techie audience, it's unlikely to stimulate FOSS competition.

    The Gimp is an excellent example. It tends to be compared to Photoshop, but the comparison is unfair. Photoshop is a heavily-funded complex product aimed at a community that uses computers as tools and has no interest in how those tools come into being; it has nothing to fear from FOSS. In terms of its capabilities, The Gimp has yet to reach the level of my five-year-old version of Jasc Paint Shop Pro, and its features curve is leveling off. It's fairly evident that The Gimp has reached a point where it's good enough for the developers and their friends. They may add a few features for the fun of meeting the challenge, but I don't see myself switching from Paint Shop to The Gimp any time soon, or ever.

    There will always be a commercial software market, but not for development tools, operating systems, or technical utilities. The big players will continue to fund development of open software that will allow them to compete with Microsoft, and the occasional labor of love will crop up. For the rest, it's either pay for it, or no one will build it.

    --
    I'm a Programmer. That's one level above Software Engineer and one level below Engineer.
  18. Re:You want to let Stallman know by PinkPanther · · Score: 3, Insightful
    If you don't understand that a business model can exist that leverages free stuff, then you shouldn't be reading what Stallman has to say.

    Sun, IBM, Red Hat, Microsoft and thousands of consulting firms (big and small) make LOTS of money by giving away free software.

    You use that free software to sell SCARCE resources: services (business analysis, custom programming, expert installation, production support, training, etc...), hardware, non-free software, etc...

    They hypothetical programmer loses their house because you believe they simply write software, give it away for free, and collect a paycheck. The reality is that the real OSS programmers are much smarter than that. The software is only a PART of their business model. It is a sales and marketing tool, and an effective one at that!

    If you can only see the "OSS programmers don't make any money", then you should not consider running a s/w company, especially one that would leverage an OSS model. There is WAY more to running a s/w company than creating software. You stick to the cubicles and whiteboards, let non-myopic people run the business.

    --
    It's a simple matter of complex programming.
  19. Nerds and Geeks in a race to starvation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Unfortunately, yes. And that is because Geeks and Nerds don't interact with real life. They are not street-smart, don't know the value of money, or bills, and basically don't know how to behave in a society. That's why they are picked on at schools and can't pick up girls.

    Now, not knowing anything about business or real life or money, they have decided that it is a good idea to work for free.

    That is what is wrong with the software industry today and why it isn't a good business to be in. The software business is basically an organization run by geeks and nerds, and because they don't really know anything about real world, money or business - this is the wrong place to be.

    Show this comment to your president and CEO and tell them to bail out, and let geeks starve themselves with this "open source", free stuff and then come back once the nerds have died off from hunger and loneliness.

  20. Re:How this works by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Well, MS (and others, of course) has amply shown that you can do that also if your application is not OSS. What was your point, exactly?

  21. Re:So it goes...on and on. by BarryJacobsen · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "The world provides no guarantee that you can forever be profitable at the thing you currently make money on."

    I suspect the issue isn't perpetual income but is it fair competition? Are the rules that OSS plays by fair to only a minority?

    I'm curious what universe you live where the notion of "fair" has anything to do with surviving - whether as an organism or a company. Where I'm from the world has always been a cold, heartless bitch when it comes to any competition other than friendly games.

  22. Re:Yes, and there's nothing fruity about that by Desert+Raven · · Score: 2, Insightful

    OSX and Linux started around the same time in terms of popularity and market share. Yet nearly 10 years later RedHat is still a peanut gallery while Apple is a powerhouse.

    You might be able to say that in the desktop market, but the exact opposite is true in the server market.

    From what I've observed over the years, OSS works great on the server/enterprise side, where there is significant money to be made in support services. On the other hand, end-users don't buy support contracts, leaving almost no money to be made there to pay developers, so closed source wins.

  23. Re:Yes, and there's nothing fruity about that by larry+bagina · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And yet Red Hat's profit and revenue keep on growing.

    --
    Do you even lift?

    These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

  24. Don't forget file format lock-in. by khasim · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Don't forget file format lock-in and network effects.

    If you're the only one who can make a 100% compatible word processor ... and everyone uses that file format ... then you can do just about whatever you want. As long as the damage you are causing to your customers is less than the cost of them migrating (and causing problems with THEIR suppliers and customers).

    That's why there was such a big push for ODF. Once the file format is standardized, ANYONE can write a word processor and compete on quality and support instead of lock-in.

    Effectively driving the cost of word processors down to zero.

  25. Re:You're doing it wrong by kz45 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Yes, but then you won't be building a community because you've already decided that the s/w you make "doesn't need to be fantastic".

    No organization with that mindset is going to build a thriving OSS community."

    The goal of a business is to make money, not create "a thriving OSS community". A large community can help, but it many cases it just works against you as a company. This is because many of the same people that are using your product have the ability to fork it and compete with you.

    OSS communities also have a history of containing people that not only will not pay for your software, but are against paying for software in general. Strike #2.

    "Once the s/w gets a footprint with the costumer, they recognize the value of it and now want customizations and/or support because the s/w has VALUE only after they've played with it."

    Support and custom jobs are a nightmare. I would much rather sell licenses to a proprietary application than become a glorified freelancer. This is why OSS businessmen have a free, open source version, and an enterprise version. They use the free version as a sort of a freeware/trial for the large, enterprise version.

  26. Think of them as artist owners.. by rtfa-troll · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you think of the programmer as a creative artist (actually, in many ways there's more truth to this than seeing them as engineers) then this is fully justified. If you are a person who pimps^Wcontrols a rock musician, then the government will try to guarantee you an income even when your product is becoming completely outdated (like 70 years!). If you have a bunch of keyboard monkey slaves, you are expected to live in a competitive market. Nobody goes around changing the law to guarantee you money.

    I think almost anybody reasonable can see how that is unfair. What we need is a PIAA which arranges guaranteed incomes for people who have once employed a programmer (as long as they don't actually program or do anything useful themselves). The BSA are a bunch of useless wimps.

    --
    =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    1. Re:Think of them as artist owners.. by ScrewMaster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you think of the programmer as a creative artist (actually, in many ways there's more truth to this than seeing them as engineers) then this is fully justified.

      Most programmers (like most engineers) are paper-pushers: they do routine things, provide support and maintenance functions, but haven't a creative bone in their collective body. That's not intrinsically bad, it's just human nature, and the truth is that there are many aspects of complex systems engineering that are not best served by artistic types. In both groups, however, there is that subset of creative minds that can push the envelope, who can take matters to the next level. The problem is, the best and brightest need an environment conducive to performing great work, and that's rarely found. Managing software engineers has been compared to "herding cats", but that's only because typical software management is incapable of any real understanding of the minds they hire. Still, you don't need to understand someone in order to give them what they need to do their jobs. You just have to be able to listen.

      Open source has improved matters by allowing talented developers to flourish, individuals who otherwise would have had the creativity squeezed out of them by corporate management that is possibly well-meaning, but ignorant of the software development process. Put it this way: it's long been known how to get the best out of your software people, but most companies that employ such people haven't a clue.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  27. I have to say, it sucks from a personal standpoint by spiffmastercow · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There's no future in being a commercial developer because someone else will do the same thing, for free. Now, I can understand the positive side of this, and I will say that software now is 'better' than it ever has been.

    But it has destroyed a lot of job opportunities. Someone with my level of skills could, 20 years ago, work on the next big OS or database or something, and make a living at it. Now I'm relegated to making web apps. Why? Because all of the big jobs have already been done, and there's no incentive to compete when the net value of the market is zero. The older Linux and BSD programmers made out pretty well since they got into the game early, but there's no way for a programmer to started in these areas anymore. The amount of work that goes into getting started on, say, Linux kernel development, is beyond what can be done in your spare time.

    Am I lamenting the fall of proprietary software? Only indirectly. I'm more upset that there's not as many opportunities to do __interesting__ work because of open source.

  28. Re:You want to let Stallman know by mkcmkc · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I heard Stallman address this topic and I though he was very realistic about it. Someone from the audience asked him something like "How can I develop Free Software and have a house?" and his response was something like that it was not always easy to do the right thing and that you have to make choices.

    I found his response quite sobering. You can agree or disagree with this stance, but I don't think you can say that he's trying to sell anyone a bill of goods.

    --
    "Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
  29. Re:There is no market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    There is no market for selling a commodity with a zero cost of production

    Nintendo would beg to differ.

  30. Re:This have been said ad nauseam here. by Lennie · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is something which seems to be better understood in Europe instead of the US. In the US OSS-companies are trying to sell OSS in a proriatary/shrinkwrapped way, just like the mentioned company.

    What you should be doing is sell development services, so someone needs something build, build what they need and atleast when you base it off an existing OSS project you will need to use a OSS-license for it. It could also be requested by the client that it have a OSS-license, so he/she can take the source code somewhere else when the two parties part.

    Or build webbases applications and also sell hosting or something.

    --
    New things are always on the horizon
  31. Every business is in a race towards zero by firewood · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Every product or service is in a race towards the minimum price at which it can be physically produced and delivered (price including any available manpower and start-up capital needed).

    Every stand-alone software product only has value until its function and value can be reproduced or supplanted (by patent expiration, stolen trade secrets, the time it takes to reinvent or develop from scratch, the time it takes to equal the original products reputation, the time it takes competitors to make/build/package your open source, etc.) To have a non-zero revenue window, you need to make sure the time you offer something unique is non-zero.

    Of course, humans are stupid, and this allows you to use their lack of information to create some additional value. If potential customers think your brand name implies something better than the identical bits under some other name (e.g. Coke vs. generic cola), then you might be able to maintain a non-zero pricing.

    IMHO. YMMV.

  32. Race To Zero by AntiSol · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There have been many interesting points of view raised here. The concensus seems to be that FOSS is a race to Zero, and I agree. I also think that this is a good thing. I recall some years ago there was a piece of commercial software around called "Notepad Plus", and more recently another one which did source highliting and all kinds of nice stuff. I can't remember the name of that one, but it had a frog for it's icon. Now, there's SciTE, which is absolutely fantastic. Since discovering SciTE I haven't looked back. This is an example of the 'race to zero' you're talking about. I'm a software developer, and more recently I've become a bit of a FOSS zealot - I've contributed a couple of things to FOSS projects, but not much yet. The way I look at it, when you contribute to an OSS project you're giving something back, but if you use OSS then your contribution is very likely to be a very small percentage of the total amount of work you benefit from. and Free software works for everybody's benefit, except perhaps the developer. Alot of people seem to think that you have to shift from doing software development to doing development and support if you want to stay solvent in the coming world where all software is FOSS. but I disagree. There are people (like me!) who despise doing support, and would much prefer to write documentation and simply deal with very high level "This has been confirmed as a bug" type stuff rather than providing support, so not everybody is going to find this shift in emphasis away from development to be attractive. Secondly, A position like mine will never go away. I work in a non-IT office, writing and supporting code which is very specific to the office I'm working in - this stuff will pretty much never be replaced by FOSS, regardless of what innovative software somebody comes up with. I'll still be needed to do all the stuff which is very specific to my office, even if commercial software has gone the way of the dodo. Thirdly, there will still be a requirement for innovation and development, even after all software hits $0, there will still be companies who need things done. For example, IBM might want a capability added to a filesystem or a database, and the best way to achieve that will be to hire a bunch of people to do it. So perhaps software will be driven by what business wants rather than what some marketing team thinks the consumer wants, but I really don't think that the job of the software developer is going to go away any time soon.

  33. The dream of humankind by jandersen · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The short answer: Yes. It is a "race to 0" if you will.

    The longer version is that there has always been something suspect in property rights, at least as implemented in modern society. Yes, yes, bloody communism, I know; let's get past that one, OK? I'm not saying that we shouldn't be able to own our own houses or cars or whatever, or benefit from our own efforts - that is and has always been the pipe dreams of people with too much time on their hands. Communism, in the essence, has always been about finding a fair balance between the amount of work you put in and the benefit you get out. If you would care to check it, it is all there, even in Marx' works - he talks about the means of production, in a context where a tiny upper class of people who had mostly inherited their wealth, lived as parasites on the ever more extreme exploitation of a working class. Who knows what he would have come up with in this day and age? But he would probably have approved of the open source idea.

    The brilliance of OSS stems from the fact that it builds on the same principles as scientific research and publication: the free exchange of ideas amongst peers, which allows everybody to make improvements. The only criterium for success is whether it is received well and gets used by the community. The absurdity of property rights is never more obvious than when it comes to the concept of intellectual property; we have seen over and over how new ideas come, not from one unique person, but from many sources at once. Take the theory of evolution - Darwin got his name on it because he managed to publish it first in the place where it mattered at the time, but he wasn't the only one who has that idea; it had been bubbling in the scientific community for years - if he or Wallace hadn't come up with it, somebody else would soon after.

    Software is just another example of ideas written down - you can of course refuse to let others see how you did it and treat it as your property, but as OSS shows, it is never that difficult to come up with that very same idea - and the cooperation of OSS means that it will eventually become better than the closed source version. So, how to make money from your work? Well, how does any craftsman make money? By making a product and selling it. But once it's been sold he has to make another. When you make a living from your ideas, you are in the same boat as scientists and artists - those that do it only for the money are at best mediocre and most of them only just scrape along, which I think is fair enough. If you do it because you really love doing it, you are either good enough that you can make a living, or you have a day job that gives you enough to finance your real interest.

    That's the way it is, and the way it should be. Don't whine about it, or it will be my turn to call you names.

  34. Re:Yes, and there's nothing fruity about that by A+Life+in+Hell · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But it will filter down, people want their home computers to run the same as they have at work, so the more OSS takes off in large businesses the more it will filter down to home users..

    [citation needed]

    --
    Commodore 64, Loading up the dance floor!
  35. The consequences of the Open Source movement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    There are people writing here who need to get out from behind their monitors and look at the real world. The modern economy does not require something to be manufactured to have a value. As we now know, banks have been selling promises and shares for years. And ultimately, selling promises of promises...but that is another debate.

    Anyway, the point is that anything can be sold if it has perceived value to someone - it doesn't need a manufacturing cost. Hence, the software market does exist. What's more, it can and will continue as a market to sell a license. Don't forget, you don't buy software, you buy a license to operate it.

    Now Open Source is great and useful to us all, but it does take time (==money) to develop. Where does that come from? Lots of people have pointed out how IBM and Sun are embracing Open Source. Of course they do - but their primary business is to sell hardware. IBM and Sun used to have a model of sell you a computer with just their software. The idea that the same OS could run on any hardware just didn't exist. I'm sure if IBM/Sun have their way, they'd go back to that.

    Then we have the Open Source software companies. They make money by adding closed/proprietary extensions or services to make it useful. Then after a few years they give that bit away and build something new. In other words, they're only Open Source when it suits them. There's nothing wrong with this from a business point-of-view. It makes good economic sense. It isn't a moral high ground or the idea that software isn't real and shouldn't be paid for. It's simple, good old fashioned - I have something you want, please pay me, business.

    The problem for the original poster is that because they are basing part of their business on Open Source, they cannot really go after anyone when they copy their proprietary bits, making them valueless. You've got two options: 1. Expand your portfolio, 2. Go closed, 3. Make hardware. Expansion is not a long term solution - you will need to add knowledge to your company to expand your product range, which means more people - unfortunately, you need greater sales to afford to do that. that you haven't got. So your option is to start making units where people have to buy your box. Then you've got lock-in. And this is the inevitable consequence of allowing anyone to take your ideas and/or code and reproduce them without any of the R&D costs.

    Unfortunately, all those who deny the value of software and suggest that nobody should ever charge for it are damaging the whole software business. The logical end to their goal of destroying Microsoft and any other company selling software is a return to the 1970s, when the only people who could afford to make software were those making the hardware and then those hardware people had total control. Who owned that market? IBM. Now who puts most money into Open Source? IBM?

    1. Re:The consequences of the Open Source movement by ledow · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The whole crux of your argument boils down to coding = time = money = who's going to pay?

      The fatal flaw here is that, YEARS before IBM et al. jumped onboard, the OS machine was already churning out good software, without funding, without help, without any commercial interests. There's no doubt that funding of kernel developers, OS organisations, etc. is extremely helpful and a massive contribution but you appear to be stuck in the mindset that people don't do things unless they are paid.

      In the commercial world, this is true. If you want a program to run that $10m company's tax accounts, you're going to have to pay for it. Outside the commercial world, there are a ton of experts (including paid professional coders who do it in their spare time and explicitly state that their OS-work is nothing to do with their employer) who are constantly do things, for free. Education is one good example. Teachers *GIVE AWAY* their lesson plans, resources, worksheets, overheads, even educational programs. Their schools/universities are *PAYING* for those but they are still allowed to give them away. And, even if they don't explicitly license and put these things online, there are many of them who are more than happy to share their resources.

      And the beauty of Open Source is that it prevents such mono-culture as you describe because, at the end of the day, I am *legally allowed* to do pretty much what I like with OS software, even if company X has bundled their own version with tons of crap with their new PC's. I can take *their* OS code (which they are legally obliged to provide) and rip all the rubbish out and put my own version online for ANYONE to do what they want with it and there's nothing the company can do. The little guys, who are able to make the one-line changes to the OS code, keep the big-guys in check. "I'll just remove that line that say 'enable_drm_and_check_hardware'".

      More importantly, in my point of view, is the fact that critical mass has been hit. We can run OS software of a myraid variations on so much hardware, supporting so many architectures and devices, "emulating" so many common pieces of software that the changes now are small-fry in comparison to the work that's already been done. We can make a PC today that is OS from top to bottom, including the BIOS. Hell, some guys are still churning out OS-from-top-to-bottom gaming devices (GP2X, Pandora) by just taking an off-the-shelf chip, bundling it with some OS software and then selling it. The opposite of what you predict may happen is much more likely to happen - MS will die or at least be crippled, and OS will be in every device whether you know it or not. Before you know it, people will be crying out for OS support for every tiny little device because they can't distribute their 99% OS-based product without it.

      It takes *one* man/woman to write a driver that a million people will use and can adapt and change to an infinite variety of hardware and uses. However, in the corporate market, it takes teams of coders, lawyers, testers, etc. to write that same driver which can only be used in Company X machines and will never been seen outside the company. Thus it will take MANY, MANY teams in MANY corporations to get the same "prevelance" of a bit of software that one man can make.

      I would actually welcome this return to "one-man, one code" coding... it's the way programming was started in earnest back in the 70's/80's - kids reading books, programming games, getting them published, all on their own. It's how most of the big names back then started, until commercialism jumped in. It's the way software works best. It doesn't make money (that's just a temporary side-benefit) but equally it doesn't COST anything to make more of it. It takes a teenage kid with a few hours spare who wants to do something with the programming language they just learned and all that free code/compilers that they have been given. Sound familiar? It should.

  36. Source code is not knowledge by blueos · · Score: 2, Insightful

    From a software developer point of view, source code is not, and will never be, knowledge (... knowledge is not wisdom). To think that downloading an opensource application give you the 'so called power' of improving it and of having the best application for nothing (because free) is a pure mirage. If someone download your opensource code and clone the commercial plugin you are selling, the final free product has no future, because the knowledge of how the 'core' is working, the ability of debuging/extending/improving/support it is in your hands. The "opensource cloner" will never be able to compete with you, all that he can do is working for free (i.e. loosing money and maybe preventing you to earn the fruit of you work). Opensource applications that can *really* compete with commercial applications are done by companies which code/maintain/understand the complete product. And these companies need to make money to pay their employees. End of the story.

  37. Re:All that is missing is the point by Ash-Fox · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't understand why noone's mentioned that what the customer is willing to pay for is having the software working in their organisation.

    You've never worked in a company... Most company's can run the worst crap ever made and require you to work around all the problems because they don't care and don't want to spend money on things like software, developers etc.

    --
    Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.