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Birth of the Moon: a Runaway Nuclear Reaction?

An anonymous reader writes "How the Moon arose has long stumped scientists. Now Dutch geophysicists argue that it was created not by a massive collision 4.5 billion years ago, but by a runaway nuclear reaction deep inside the young Earth."

35 of 355 comments (clear)

  1. Wouldn't there be an empty space? by mnslinky · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Wouldn't there be evidence of this on the surface somewhere? I know the crust has shifted considerably, but that's a *lot* of material to suddenly vacate.

    1. Re:Wouldn't there be an empty space? by Fallen+Kell · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If it happened during the time that the earth was mostly molten, then no, there would be on evidence...

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    2. Re:Wouldn't there be an empty space? by Goaway · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Others mentioned the Earth being molten, but even as it is now, the Earth is plastic enough that if you removed a big enough chunk, the rest of the planet would flow and deform until it was spherical again.

    3. Re:Wouldn't there be an empty space? by moteyalpha · · Score: 4, Informative

      There is a remnant of a naturally occurring reactor that operated in southern Africa 2 billion years ago so I suppose it is possible, however many other odd things are also possible. http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap021016.html

    4. Re:Wouldn't there be an empty space? by Dystopian+Rebel · · Score: 5, Funny

      The article is slashdotted but it is possible that when this happened there was no solid surface yet to leave traces of this.

      No, I think the article was slashdotted today.

      The server in flames may leave traces on the floor and walls of the server room, but we'll have to wait for a "Best Way For Bright Child To Clean Server Room?" post to Ask Slashdot to confirm.

      --
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    5. Re:Wouldn't there be an empty space? by CheshireCatCO · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Everyone who has replied so far makes fair points, but misses the biggest point: the Moon is over 4 billion years old. There are virtually no rocks on the Earth's surface that even approach its age. That means that the ENTIRE Earth's surface has been replaced and reshaped in the interim. Things haven't just "shifted considerably", we've got a totally different surface. Any scar from that period is long, long since erased. And hole as deep as the Moon has long since filled in since the Earth is still very much a fluid over these timescales.

    6. Re:Wouldn't there be an empty space? by afidel · · Score: 4, Informative

      Correct, the total volume of the oceans is ~1.3*10^6 km^3, the volume of the moon is ~2.2*10^10 km^3 so it's not even close.

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    7. Re:Wouldn't there be an empty space? by WhiplashII · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm not sure I agree - The moon has an ungodly amount of angular momentum. I'm having trouble coming up with a method whereby a section of object a leaves object a, and then has enough thrust perpendicular to the direction of object a to get up to it's 1km/s orbital velocity.

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    8. Re:Wouldn't there be an empty space? by adrianwn · · Score: 4, Informative

      Dude, the European definition of billion is a thousand million, just like in the USA.

      Huh? Where?! In German, French, Spanish and Italian, the word "billion" (resp. the words similiar to it) always means 10e12.

    9. Re:Wouldn't there be an empty space? by Smidge207 · · Score: 4, Funny

      People like you are what makes arseholes like Bevets cry at night and hold themselves...you with your "science" and "evidence." Bah! A pox on you!

      =Smidge=

      --
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    10. Re:Wouldn't there be an empty space? by d3ac0n · · Score: 4, Informative

      Keep in mind too, that the continental crust material is made up of significantly YOUNGER and lighter rock than the deeper crust. Most of the continents are made of (comparatively) light granite, limestone, sandstone, shale and loose aggregates of all stones. However, the lower crust and the deep ocean crust are made primarily from heavy Basalt.

      So the idea that continents formed in the way they did due to the ejection of moon material is incorrect. Not only was the earth likely still a molten ball at that point, but the continents are made from material that did not even exist on earth until well AFTER the earth had solidified.

      --
      Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
    11. Re:Wouldn't there be an empty space? by WhiplashII · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The sun's gravity accelerates things near the Earth by 0.006 m/sec^2. Two objects close enough to be meaningfully gravitationally linked while orbiting the sun in the Earth's orbit will have a maximum differential acceleration of maybe a thousandth of that. So to get to 1000m/s takes 5 years.

      So this essentially posits that an explosion had enough force to blown the planet apart, and send the pieces into space, but not to escape velocity (11.2 km/s) but instead to a velocity just short of that (11.19 km/s or so), so that the moon goes flying away for 2.5 years but 2.5 years later comes back and settles into a nice, circular orbit.

      That would be hard to accomplish on purpose - saying an accident did it is beyond belief.

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    12. Re:Wouldn't there be an empty space? by jc42 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      A Spherical estimation is good enough for most purposes.

      True, at least by the old engineer's rule of thumb that only three places are significant for practical purposes.

      But there are some situations where it's not good enough. One is if you're dealing with the orbits of satellites. To the satellites, the Earth is decidedly lumpy, enough so to affect orbits on a time scale of weeks or months.

      A fun case I ran across some years ago was a geography trivia question: Name the three "highest points on Earth", and for each, give the definition of "highest point" that it satisfies.

      The only answer that most people know is Mount Everest, which is the point that's the highest above the local "geoid" (which is the extension of "sea level" to handle areas far from the closest open ocean).

      Some people know another answer: Mauna Kea, which is the point that's the highest above the mean level of the surrounding land. Everest rises some 3,000 m above the surrounding land, the Tibetan Plateau, Mauna Kea rises from the bottom of the central Pacific Ocean, and it's a much taller pile of rock than Everest. Its peak is more than 10 km above its base.

      Hardly anyone can even guess the third answer. It turns out to be Mount Chimborazo, which is on the equator in Ecuador, and is the point that's farthest from the Earth's center. It's a good-size volcano that rises some 2,500 m above the surrounding land, but its peak is estimated at 6,384.4 km above the Earth's center, several km higher than the peaks of Everest or Mauna Kea.

      All of these "highest point" claims are mentioned in the wikipedia articles about them (which is where I checked the numbers). And you could probably find them reasonably quickly by googling for that phrase, though I haven't tried it. I also wonder if there are other definitions of "highest point" that have different answers.

      (And Chimborazo is one of the answers to another trivia question that's fun in "global warming" discussions: What are the two places where there are glaciers on the equator? So far, nobody I've asked this one has got either answer right, though some people get close to the other answer. Both places' glaciers are retreating rapidly, and are predicted to disappear in a few decades.)

      --
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    13. Re:Wouldn't there be an empty space? by digitig · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes it is -- it's akin to trying to draw strong conclusions from the weak anthropic principle. How many "trials" have there been in the history of the whole universe? On an astronomical scale, rare events are relatively common, if you see what I mean. Since the presence and nature of our moon appears to be a great benefit to the development of advanced life forms, it's hardly surprising at all that we happen to be on one of the (possibly very many) planets with a moon like ours.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    14. Re:Wouldn't there be an empty space? by hkgroove · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Tidal Forces, also, it could act as a blocker for rogue material headed Earth's way. Jupiter is also extremely important in deflecting comets and debris also keeping the asteroids at bay. But at the same time, Jupiter is most likely responsible for the belt.

      http://www.astronomytoday.com/astronomy/earthmoon.html

      http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astrobio_jupiter_030122-1.html

  2. stupid scientists by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Funny

    the moon is made of cheese

    clearly, the young earth was lactose intolerant, and ejected it for that reason

    the problem is all infants can digest lactose, and lose the lactase enzyme ability later in life if they don't have the right genes

    but all theories have holes in them

    like swiss cheese!

    --
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  3. Runaway Nuclear Reaction... by bytethese · · Score: 5, Funny

    Check. Dutch Scientists, Check. Thought that the moon was caused by a Cosmic Dutch Oven, Priceless.

  4. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Funny

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  5. Sanitation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    So Earth basically got a bad case of gas, had an accident and now has its own turd in orbit.

  6. Not possible by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 4, Funny

    We all know that if there were a nuclear catastrophe of this magnitude, then the whole planet would be hurled through space at such speed that each week we would encounter a new alien race, group of outcasts, or supernatural being. Seeing as the earth is still in its stable orbit around the sun, we can conclude that this must not have happened.

    1. Re:Not possible by Twisted+Willie · · Score: 4, Funny

      Unless ofcourse, as some might argue, this has already happened.

  7. It's a long but interesting article by mcgrew · · Score: 4, Informative

    I'm on page three. I had to look up a couple of things of wikipedia so far. I hadn't heard the word Petrology before; it's the study of rocks.

    The term "georeactor" seemed self-explanatory but I looked it up anyway, and was glad I did.

    Natural nuclear reactors
    In the 1970s, geochemists documented the existence of naturally-occurring slow fission reactors in uranium-bearing geologic formations at Oklo in Gabon, Africa. The Oklo natural nuclear fission reactors operated approximately 1.5 to 2.0 billion years ago, when the natural occurrence of the uranium-235 isotope (required for the fission chain-reaction) was much higher.

    [edit] Planetary fission reactors
    Large, gaseous planets, such as Jupiter or Saturn, radiate more energy into space than they receive from the Sun. (In the case of Jupiter, the radiated energy is almost twice the received energy.) The source of this energy was originally attributed to gravitational contraction, since gravitational potential energy conversion into heat seemed to be the heat source of sufficient magnitude to account for the quantity of energy released. In 1992, J. Marvin Herndon postulated that the excess energy could be explained by the existence of a central nuclear reactor. High-density fissile elements (i.e. uranium) would be concentrated at the core and could undergo sustained nuclear fission chain reactions. Herndon demonstrated the feasibility of a planetocentric nuclear reactor using Fermi's nuclear reactor theory, calculations similar to those used in nuclear-reactor design.

    [edit] The georeactor
    Herndon subsequently realized that the calculations also permitted the existence of a similar reactor at the Earth's core. Herndon's calculations depend on certain unconventional assumptions regarding the composition of the core, in particular the oxidation state of uranium and the likelihood of its precipitating to the center. He justifies these assumptions by comparison with the composition of enstatite chondrite meteorites, which do have the necessary highly reduced oxidation states and are the only chondrite meteorites which have sufficient iron metal-alloy to match the composition of the Earth with its massive core.

    Herndon argues that the georeactor is the energy source for the Earth's magnetic field, and that variations in the strength and direction of the field can be explained by natural variations in the operation of the georeactor.

    [edit] Generalization to planetary magnetic fields
    Currently active internally generated magnetic fields have been detected in six planets (Mercury, Earth, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune) and in one satellite (Jupiter's moon Ganymede). Magnetized surface areas of Mars and the Moon indicate the former existence of internally generated magnetic fields in those bodies.

    As Mr. Spock would say, "fascinating." My thanks to the story submitter.

  8. Teach the hypothetical controversy! by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 4, Funny

    If the moon were real, it would have been created by God. Clearly a large ball of rock is the sign of an intelligent Creator, if it were there.

    1. Re:Teach the hypothetical controversy! by MikeBabcock · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Christian-minded skepticism would sound a lot less idiotic (no offense to those of you who can't stand that), and something like:

      Why do we think this might have happened? Because it might be possible. Do we have any proof of it? None whatsoever. Does it seem likely or probable? Not enough data. Could the moon have been spontaneously created by an infinitely powerful being instead? Sure.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    2. Re:Teach the hypothetical controversy! by db32 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Just to be fair to everyone here, there will be a variety of Christian-minded skepticism. To lump them all into one bunch is pretty dishonest.

      We have group #1 that is going to claim the literalist nonsense. These are the folks that built the creationist fantasy tourist trap where children frolick with dinos in the displays.

      We have group #2 that is probably going to take the approach you mentioned to various degrees. Some may say it could have been spontaneously created, but that is no reason to not investigate, we don't have a lot of good information yet. The other end will lean towards the idea that we haven't found any information yet and thus it must be spontaneously created. This is the realm of curable ignorance on one side and pseudoscience nonsense on the other.

      Then we will have the final group, that thankfully has gained at least some traction. The group that will say "Sure God created it...and a runaway nuclear reaction or massive impact are two possible methods that the universe played out that caused it to be created...let's go figure it out." Despite the common slashdot groupthink on this subject, there are indeed quite a few very intelligent people that also hold religious beliefs and don't let those religious beliefs muddy up the science. Francis Collins and Ken Miller are two examples that jump to mind. (In fact, if you haven't seen Ken Miller's video on the ID/Dover trial business, it's about 2hrs, but it is an amazing lecture.)

      --
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  9. Re:Or maybe by xpuppykickerx · · Score: 5, Funny

    Actually they used DC-8. The 737 didn't come out til like 10 million years later!

  10. Nuclear Reactor by heavygravity · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Can't get to the article, but - if you haven't heard of this before, it's pretty cool: the Oklo Natural Fission Reactor in Gabon. And while you're at it, you can read about how this natural reactor has scientists rethinking how constant the fine structure constant really is.

    --
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  11. Re:Impactors all the way by Canazza · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We may never *know* for certain. We can have hypothesis after hypothesis, and although the giant impact fits the data nicely, and is unlikely to be wrong, the only way we'll really challenge that is by having other ideas. What really throws this theory out for me however (And I admit, I can't view the page, it's been /.ed) was that most of Earth's fissle material is in the crust, not the core. So any 'deep explosion' would have to have been in the crust or mantle, not the center.

    --
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  12. Re:Impactors all the way by mcgrew · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My problem with it is simple that the impactor idea seems to fit all the data so well I think it's unlikley to be wrong.

    Further on they say that the impactor theory doesn't exactly fit the data. I'd blockquote, but I'm stuck on page three, I think we slashdotted it.

    They give several reasons; one is that the object would have had to hit at a precise angle to become the moon and not completely vaporize the earth. Another is that the object would have had to have been formed very near the earth; they calculate from the moon rocks it would have had to be between Venus' and Mars' orbits.

  13. Re:Impactors all the way by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 5, Informative

    > it would have had to be between Venus' and Mars' orbits.

    They quote this as a problem?!

    The baseline assumption is that the impactor formed in the Earth's trojans, which fixes this "complaint" perfectly. Unlike Jupiter (for instance), the Earth's trojans are not entirely stable, and any large objects placed in it will drift back and forth. This explains a VERY large number of data points:

    1) it explains geological makeup perfectly
    2) it explains why the impact angle was grazing
    3) it explains why the Moon formed so long after the Earth

    See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_impact_hypothesis

    Maury

  14. That's no moon! by Wolfger · · Score: 4, Funny

    Oh, wait... it is. Nevermind.

  15. That's no moon... by Arancaytar · · Score: 4, Funny

    It's the mother of all core dumps!

  16. How Big the Earth, How Thin the Crust by Alien54 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Just how much crust there is is often misunderstood.

    Example: imagine a model of the earth where 1 mm = 1 mile. (or you can use 1mm = 1 km, if you like)

    The earth is 7926.28 miles (12756.1 km) in diameter.

    At this scale, you can make out significant mountain ranges, etc. The Atmosphere would be 4 or 5 inches deep. The crust is an inch or 2 thick.

    And the Earth itself is more than 8 yards across. That inch or two of crust is sitting on a chewy molten insides. (check volcano flows, etc.)

    The Earth is really a molten droplet spinning in space with the thinnest external layer where life has happened to accumulate, like the layer of tarnish on a coin.

    --
    "It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
    1. Re:How Big the Earth, How Thin the Crust by Pearson · · Score: 4, Informative

      The example I remember from school is that if the earth were an apple, the crust would be as thin as the skin of the apple. And we've never been able to drill all the way through even that "thin" skin.

      --
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  17. Robert Heinlein, "Blowups Happen" by dpbsmith · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's really not the same at all, but the article did call this story immediately to mind.

    "Blowups Happen" is a classic 1940s SF story about a future in which society is total dependent on nuclear power plants. The engineering theory behind them shows that they are intrinsically safe and cannot blow up like a bomb. Then someone discovers that there is a false assumption in the equations and that, in fact they can blow up like bombs.

    Meanwhile, an expert in the theory of lunar formation has concluded the lunar craters cannot have been formed by meteor impact, because of the "rays." There had to have been enough energy to "crack an entire planet." The only possible explanation, he says, is that the Moon was once an inhabited planet with an atmosphere and that "Here at Tycho was located their main power plant, and here at Copernicus and Kepler, on islands of the middle of the great oceans, were secondary power stations."

    In other words, not only can they blow up like bombs, but that is what reduced the Moon to its present airless, lifeless, cratered and cracked state.

    As I say, that's a completely different theory from the one being discussed. Nevertheless, I would bet a nickel that at least one of the authors of that article had read "Blowups Happen."