Indian GPS Cartographers Charged As Terrorists

chrb writes "Following on from the discussion about Apple disabling GPS in Egyptian iPhones, we have a new case of the conflict between the traditional secrecy of government, and the widening availability of cheap, accurate GPS devices around the world. On 5th December, two software engineers employed by Biond Software in India were arrested for mapping highways using vehicle based GPS devices. Further evidence against the pair emerged when it was found that a laptop they had been using in the car contained some photos of the local airforce base. The company claims they had been commissioned by Nokia Navigator to create maps of local roads and terrain. Following an investigation by the Anti Terrorist Squad of Gujarat the cartographers have now been charged with violating the Official Secrets Act and will remain in custody."

Comments

Re:Crazy Indians?

[Teresita]

The most dangerous thing in the world is a second lieutenant with a map and a compass.

With a name like "The Official Secrets Act"

[jeffmeden]

"You are in violation of the Official Secrets Act, you are under arrest."

"The official secrets act? What's that?"

"An official secret. Now put your hands behind your back. You have the right to remain ignorant of your crimes. You have the right to a low quality attorney. And you have the right to not ask any more stupid questions..."

Re:With a name like "The Official Secrets Act"

[Anonymous Coward]

"You are in violation of the Official Secrets Act, you are under arrest."

Correction: That's the Official Secrets Act of 1923.

From TFA, here's what got led to the charges:

The laptop contained Army personnel marching at Wagah border, video recording of a bus headed from India to Lahore, clipping of Jamnagar airport that is also used by Air Force fighter planes.

"Their digital camera too had clippings of some prohibited spots - a photo of Jamnagar airport's main gate, boundary walls and also buildings. The two had also attempted to shoot a blue fighter aircraft. Air Force campus and station is situated right beside the Jamnagar airport and photography and videography in this zone is prohibited,"

Presumably, everything they recorded was viewable from public roadways since neither linked articles mentioned anything about criminal trespassing. I wonder how many of India's citizenry or tourists know about the ban on photographing those areas? Were there any signs posted? Anyway the whole mess sounds like an overreaction due to the Mumbai shootings.

Re:With a name like "The Official Secrets Act"

[techno-vampire]

That's the Official Secrets Act of 1923.

India didn't become an independent nation until after WW II. Checking Wikipedia, I find that this law was held over from the British colonial administration. Interesting.

Re:Charged As Terrorists?

[HTH NE1]

GPS information is an official secret?

"Where am I?"
"You have no right to know that."

Bankrupting justice

[nightfire-unique]

Governments spend billions of dollars and many years building up their credibility. Every time the justice system fails, that credit is lost. In time, if corrective measures aren't taken, the justice department finds itself bankrupt - people have zero respect for the law (because it is corrupt), and much contempt for the law. Society becomes lawless.

And not just for the commoner - government workers break the law as well, and for the same reason. Lack of respect.

I posit that debiting the "justice account" by making examples of people, we (regardless of which country) fundamentally damage society and lay burden on those who will follow. It is immoral, and must be stopped.

Re:Bankrupting justice

[elrous0]

You know, before you mock the Indian government here, it should be noted that there *ARE* Pakistani spies and terrorists in India. And this sort of thing is exactly the kind of behavior you would expect out of them (particularly with the recent Indian/Pakistani tensions, the recent terrorist attack, and the possibility of an Indian airstrike against Pakistan's intelligence office). It may be a rush to judgment to condemn them, but it may also be a rush to judgment to just assume that they're just innocent mapmakers who happen to have extensive pictures of Indian air force bases too.

Re:Bankrupting justice

[russotto]

Governments spend billions of dollars and many years building up their credibility. Every time the justice system fails, that credit is lost. In time, if corrective measures aren't taken, the justice department finds itself bankrupt - people have zero respect for the law (because it is corrupt), and much contempt for the law. Society becomes lawless.

Not all governments. Some governments have wisely looked ahead, realized this process is inevitable, and saved the initial outlay. Modern cases in point are Mexico and Russia.

Re:Well

[gnick]

You're kidding, right? I realize that Guantanamo isn't a resort, but I'd feel much safer there than in an Indian jail. Especially with the spot-light shining on it so brightly.

Of course, this pair has only gone 3 days being held without an official charge...

Judge Moron

[should_be_linear]

How about Google Maps having photos of same roads already for *years*. Made by flying holy cow.

Re:Well

[gnick]

Oops. I actually read the first linked article and jumped the gun (at that point they'd been held 3 days and not charged). TFS clearly indicates that they're facing charges for photographing the Air Force base.

Of course, you can be detained for doing that in the US too. Not sure what exactly they charge you with.

Re:Charged As Terrorists?

[DougF]

GPS information is an official secret?

No, but certain locations, aircraft configurations, and equipment ARE secret and videos/pictures of them when supposedly out collecting GPS info is grounds for interrogation and subsequent charges under the Official Secrets Act.

RTFA

[Sta7ic]

The Times of India article claims that the two are being held and charged more for having film of an airport and an air force base, than they are for collecting GPS data. Using a DUI for an analogy, the poor lane control would be the GPS dish, and the film of the air facilities the half-empty beer bottle.

Re:RTFA

[Sta7ic]

Technically, it's been a van analogy, but hey.

Re:RTFA

[Sponge Bath]

...it's been a van analogy

Ranjan Foley: Living in a van, down by the Ganges.

Wait a sec...

[UltraMathMan]

According to TFA they were arrested for "snooping around Jamnagar" which according to Wikipedia "has shot to prominence as Reliance Industries, India's largest private company, established the world's largest [oil] refinery near Moti Khavdi village."

So very basically, this seems akin so someone driving in a car, decked out with electronics, around say, a nuclear power plant in the U.S. Not saying the charges are or aren't appropriate and there's no information as to how close to said refinery they actually were, but given the area through which they were traveling they should have expected some attention.

Wikipedia Article

Re:Crazy Indians?

[Ethanol-fueled]

My buddy served time in Iraq right around the same time Jessica Lynch's unit was attacked. Though the Wikipedia explanation is:

The convoy was supposed to detour around the town and instead turned directly into it, eventually running into an ambush. The ambush was unlikely to have been set up in advance, because the Iraqis did not know which course the convoy would take. The navigational error has never been properly explained, because the soldiers had GPS receivers and maps

My buddy revealed that it was common knowledge in the sandbox that the Officer in charge of the convoy, Capt. Troy Kent King, was the one who was responsible for making the wrong turns. According to google searches, the report is classified Secret and so the official cause is still "unknown".

So that's what happens when LT's with a map and compass go on to become captains.

Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm an Indian. Buildings and installations covered under official secrets act have a clear sign that says "photography is prohibited and you can be charged under the act for violation".

So if they did photograph the air force base then they basically broke the law and have been charged. What's the problem?

Try taking photos of a secret Army, Air Force installation in US and see what happens ... guarantee the same result.

There is nothing to see here ... move on.

Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge

[QuasiEvil]

Actually, no, you can legally photograph nearly everything you can see from public land in the US. There are a few places where they're known to lack a sense of humor about it, but almost everything is fair game. (That said, there are a few rare restrictions on such things.)

Now understanding that this is the law in your country, and it is (apparently) clearly posted, well... yeah, they broke the law and got caught. As usual, /. distorts the story.

Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge

[radish]

Not so rare any more. Pretty much all the tunnels & bridges in NYC are "no photo" zones. Take a look at this entertaining gallery for examples.

Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge

[the_womble]

Still better than Britain where you can get arrested or harressed for taking photographs anywhere the police do not like it..

Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge

[R3d M3rcury]

Go to ANY military airfield in the USA; there are signs specifying two things: It is a US Govermnent property site, so you must abide by all rules, regulations, and laws. Failure results in prosecution. Photogrophy is prohibited. To make a photograph is a Federal offense.

Agreed. However, you have to reread the QuasiEvil's post where he said (emphasis mine):

you can legally photograph nearly everything you can see from public land in the US.

Which means if you are standing on public land which is not part of the US Government property site, you can take pictures of the US Government property site even though photography while on the site is prohibited.

That said, I would imagine that most sites that have said regulations are not particularly close to public land and/or have some sort of obstruction to keep people from taking photographs.

Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge

[gonz]

Actually, no, you can legally photograph nearly everything you can see from public land in the US. There are a few places where they're known to lack a sense of humor about it, but almost everything is fair game.

A few years ago I took a tourist photo of the Pentagon in D.C. from just outside the metro stop, which is pretty far away from the building. A security officer came and asked me to delete the photo from my camera. I explained that it wasn't a digital camera, but rather a disposable film camera. He said that officially he should make me throw it away, but instead allowed me to go on condition that I didn't take any more photos.

You're right that the law allows people to take tourist photos. But where "security" is concerned, it apparently doesn't matter what the law says.

-Gonz

Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge

[BlueStrat]

Actually, no, you can legally photograph nearly everything you can see from public land in the US. There are a few places where they're known to lack a sense of humor about it, but almost everything is fair game. (That said, there are a few rare restrictions on such things.)

Now understanding that this is the law in your country, and it is (apparently) clearly posted, well... yeah, they broke the law and got caught. As usual, /. distorts the story.

As to US laws, here's what 18 USC 795 has to say (in part).

"Whenever, in the interests of national defense, the President defines certain vital military and naval installations or equipment as requiring protection against the general dissemination of information relative thereto, it shall be unlawful to make any photograph, sketch, picture, drawing, map, or graphical representation of such vital military and naval installations or equipment without first obtaining permission of the commanding officer of the military or naval post, camp, or station, or naval vessels, military and naval aircraft, and any separate military or naval command concerned, or higher authority, and promptly submitting the product obtained to such commanding officer or higher authority for censorship or such other action as he may deem necessary."

Executive Order 10104, 1 Feb 1950:

"... it shall be unlawful to make any photograph, sketch, picture, drawing, map, or graphical representation of such vital military and naval installations or equipment..."

Atomic Energy Commission, US Code, Title 42, Cap 23, Div A, Subchap XVII, Sec 2278b:

"It shall be an offense...to make any photograph, sketch, picture, drawing, map or graphical representation, while present on property subject to the jurisdiction, administration or in the custody of the Commission."

The laws w.r.t. photography/videography/general data-gathering concerning anything that could be construed as sensitive are very broad, and enforcement and interpretation varies enormously. Making assumptions here can get one in deep trouble very quickly with many large, angry, heavily-armed men, one of which might be thinking to himself; "I wonder if I could just shoot this idiot? If my buddy Smitty is Officer Of The Day today, he'd probably cover me in the report.".

Cheers!

Strat

Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge

[chrb]

The British police are also interested in those odd people who walk around with GPS devices and then start drawing maps in a cafe. OpenStreetMappers beware.

Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge

[mdmkolbe]

Go to ANY military airfield in the USA; there are signs specifying two things

Could you provide a photo of these signs to back up your claim?

Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge

[chrb]

The engineers were initially arrested for GPS surveying - despite the fact that Google Maps appears to have quite a detailed map of Jamnagar (including the airforce base).

The fact that the police actually found some incriminating photos afterwards doesn't mean that the original arrest was reasonable - using a GPS device isn't a crime, and shouldn't give the police license to search the rest of your equipment looking for further evidence.

As to whether photographing an air force base should be a crime in the first place - let me introduce a detailed aerial photo of Jamnagar Air Force Base! Also try searching for Jamnagar AFB on Google images :-) You can't put the cat back in the bag, and this kind of inadvertent information leakage is exactly what I was talking about when I noted the conflict between the traditional secrecy of the military/government and cheap, accurate personal electronics.

Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Not so rare any more. Pretty much all the tunnels & bridges in NYC are "no photo" zones. Take a look at this entertaining gallery for examples.

All part of the War on Photographers.

Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge

[Rastl]

The husband likes taking pictures of industrial structures as reference for his model railroad. His job was taking him all over the country at this point.

He was on a road when he saw an interesting building he decided to photograph. So he did. Very soon after that a rent-a-cop came puffing up the hill and told him he couldn't do that.

Next he was demanding that my husband give him the camera. Uh, no. Then he demanded that all the photos (including all the other ones that had nothing to do with this situation) be deleted. Uh, no. Eventually my husband got bored with the whole thing and just walked away. There was nothing the guy could really do as this was all taking place on a public highway and a building in plain view.

Here in the US, he could get away with it. I don't know about other places. But just because 'someone' says you can't do it doesn't mean they're right. And sadly most people will cave when someone perceived to be an authority figure demands something.

Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge

[joocemann]

Actually, no, you can legally photograph nearly everything you can see from public land in the US. There are a few places where they're known to lack a sense of humor about it, but almost everything is fair game. (That said, there are a few rare restrictions on such things.)

Now understanding that this is the law in your country, and it is (apparently) clearly posted, well... yeah, they broke the law and got caught. As usual, /. distorts the story.

Actually, no, you cannot take pictures of many US Military installations. I was one of the guys who would apprehend you and take your camera from you. Please don't speak for America if you don't know enough to tell the truth.

Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge

[macshit]

A few years ago I took a tourist photo of the Pentagon in D.C. from just outside the metro stop, which is pretty far away from the building. A security officer came and asked me to delete the photo from my camera.

Keep in mind that "a security offer asked" and "it is the law" are very, very, different things.

Sometimes they're simply full of shit and trying to intimidate you into doing something they have no legal power to enforce.

Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge

[instarx]

Not so rare any more. Pretty much all the tunnels & bridges in NYC are "no photo" zones.

Not true. These no-photo rules were imposed in the security-frenzy that was NYC immediately after 9/11. When things calmed down objections were raised by citizens and the rules were rescinded. In 2007, revised rules about commercial street photography in NYC specifically allowed photogrphy by ordinary citizens and visitors.

That does not mean that a lot of people, including cops, don't know or care that the rules were changed back to allow photography. Those signs you linked to are probably still there because their removal is at the bottom of the city's To-Do list. If they are true to form the city might get around to taking them down around 2020.

In any event they were the dumbest rules ever devised. If I were a terrorist i could take 10,000 secret pictures of subways, bridges and train stations and no one would ever know. What was the the point of hassling John or Mary from Debuque?

Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge

[houghi]

Many years ago I took a picture inside a mall and a rent-a-cop came up to me and explained that I was not allowed to take photos. When I told him I already had taken all the photos I wanted he said basicaly "Good for you." Smiled and went on his way.

Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge

[Registered Coward v2]

Actually, no, you can legally photograph nearly everything you can see from public land in the US. There are a few places where they're known to lack a sense of humor about it, but almost everything is fair game. (That said, there are a few rare restrictions on such things.)

Actually, no you can't. You can be charged with a federal crime for photographing certain US defense installations or equipment; no matter where you take the pictures of for what reason. In that respect US law is no different than Indian.

Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge

[Registered Coward v2]

; there are signs specifying two things: It is a US Govermnent property site... Photogrophy is prohibited

Sure, if you go on the base property. But I think by "public" land the GP meant more along the lines of the public road that goes by the base. There may not be a gate preventing access to the base property, but it's no longer public land.

Doesn't matter if you are not on base property; you can still be prosecuted for photographing restricted installations.

Come on, this is 2008 !

[Milvuss]

Governments have to understand cartography can no longer be restricted to military or other officials.

GPS, camera, satellites are ubiquitous, and we can see the result with things like Google Earth or wiki-like mapping. You can no longer make imprecise or secret maps. You can no longer forbid photos of any place you can see from a public location. You can no longer base your security on obscurity.

After all, the bad guys probably already have all this information. You have to assume they have it, or your doomed to failure. Just make officially all those things public, and find new ways to implement security for your important places, for people, for the country...

Re:Well

[morgan_greywolf]

Of course, you can be detained for doing that in the US too. Not sure what exactly they charge you with.

Really? I wonder what happened to the Google employees who took these photos?

Re:Crazy Indians?

[Wandering Wombat]

My Dad has been saying that for decades. Where's it from?

I am beginning to see a pattern.

[Anachragnome]

Step 1: Create and heavily market new technology to public as a profitable venture

Step 2: Make use of technology ILLEGAL

Step 3: Fill privately owned/operated prisons with resulting miscreants OR...

Optional Step 4: Use resulting abuse(illegality) as validation to extort money from general populace

This model fits with the whole Media/DRM crap and now seems to be used for purposes other then making money.

Re:Crazy Indians?

[jackalope]

Actually I know of two things more dangerous:

1) A programmer with a screwdriver
2) A salesman with an install disc

Re:Charged As Terrorists?

[cyphercell]

So, in order to keep the air force base data out of the GPS system wouldn't they need to know where it was?

Biond...James Biond?

[elrous0]

Why would cartographers be taking pictures of airforce bases, in addition to their more expected mapping out of GPS routes? Does sound just a tad suspicious. Can't blame India for wanting to ask them a few questions--the first question being "Are you a Pakistani spy or a terrorist?"

You're forgetting..

[BlackCobra43]

This is India. They couldn't possibly arrest a flying holy cow.

Re:Wat?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this article title red?

*Sigh* This question keeps getting asked, so I feel duty-bound to inform you of the true answer.

It's a test of your sexuality; only people who enjoy performing sexual acts with four-legged mammals of various equine species see it as red- it looks green to the rest of us.

There- now I don't expect to see anyone asking that question again. :)

P.S. If there's anyone out there who sees it as purple with yellow stripes, please contact me *immediately*.

Re:Charged As Terrorists?

[matrim99]

Actually, to stay out of trouble, they'd be safer knowing every location that it is NOT at, and extrapolating from there.

Tongue, cheek, and all that.

Re:Crazy Indians?

[Chris Mattern]

Therefore we can deduce that a salesman with a screwdriver would be truly terrifying.

Re:Well

[Warll]

Well isn't it obvious? He followed Google Map's road lay out and drove right into the fence.

Judge the Law

[bill_mcgonigle]

So if they did photograph the air force base then they basically broke the law and have been charged. What's the problem?

The law does almost nothing to prevent terrorism while throwing innocent people in jail for doing things a free person would normally do.

That's the problem.

We could have a really safe society by placing everybody under house arrest, unless they were being transported by the government to their work centers. Official delivery people could provide rations and perhaps emergency services personnel could use the roads as well. Then we just arrest anybody else traveling illegally and execute them for attempted terrorism.

I'll take some risk with my freedom, thanks.

Re:Judge the Law

[XchristX]

The law does almost nothing to prevent terrorism while throwing innocent people in jail for doing things a free person would normally do.

I don't know about that, but it does send a message to a totalitarian and genocidal enemy (Pakistan) that they will have a tougher time in carrying out their goals.

I'll take some risk with my freedom, thanks.

I'd rather lose some freedoms than die in a nuclear fireball, or live in perpetual misery in the Dhimmitude of an Islamic theocracy. Pakistan means to destroy our country or, failing that, occupy it and subject non-Muslims to the dehumanizing oppression of Dhimmitude (fighting Islamic Jihad is mentioned in their constitution, as well as the motto of their Army).

It's easy for you to pontificate, sitting in a country surrounded by well-wishing allies. Not so for us, being the only democracy surrounded by Islamic theocracies and totalitarian dictatorships who mean to wipe us out (and have already tried to do so once: http://www.genocidebangladesh.org/).

Volatile India-Pakistan

[Arthur Grumbine]

Standoff enters day 11,834. It's a powder-keg. For sure. They could totally nuke each other any second.

Re:Charged As Terrorists?

[Sloppy]

So, in order to keep the air force base data out of the GPS system wouldn't they need to know where it was?

For some reason this reminds me of telemarketers' Do Not Call list.

Or the "opt out" link on spam, whereby one can click to say, "Yes, I'm here and I read my spam, so please stop sending it."

Re:Crazy Indians?

[tsstahl]

Old military lore.

Fresh officers (boots, butterbars, third-butter-cutter, all sorts of names for them) out of officer school are all hot to show their Stuff. Typically, within weeks of commissioning they were given a platoon of men to lead. As the head cheese, it is their responsibility to get the platoon where it needs to go.

These guys are around 22 years old. In this platoon, you are sure to have one old salt, and a couple on their way. The unwritten rule is to make sure the butterbar has adult supervision in the form of a senior non-com. This senior non-com goes out of his way _not_ to make decisions. So, you will hear plenty of stories about how a platoon gets hopelessly lost while the non-coms who could have 'prevented' the tragedy do nothing. The officers learn from their mistakes with the benefit of senior non-coms as training wheels.

In modern times, the officers go through some OJT as an exec. or something in addition to the more extensive field training currently in the system.

1-way encryption

[mwilliamson]

This is the perfect opportunity to use some sort of crypo that encrypts the data stored (video, whatever) in a block by block fashion as it is recorded, but encrypts with traditional PKI so that there is no open session to attack. Also, the secret key shouldn't be stored on the device but instead reside with the news agency, trusted friend in another country, etc. In a nutshell, devices from video cameras to general-purpose gps-enabled geek toys shouldn't be made into easy tools for a repressive government to compile evidence against the user of the tool. I also realize though that these repressive regimes could just outlaw the crypto and make that penalty very harsh/cruel/insane, but then there's also the whole field of stenography, and this cat and mouse game can still continue ad nauseum. I really would love to build something like this out of a DV camera and some sort of small embeddible computer that could handle the I/O and crypto at DV rates.

Re:Crazy Indians?

[jfeldredge]

The truly-scary thing is an administrator with a screwdriver. A former boss of mine tried to do his own computer repair, and managed to connect the case of his machine to 110V AC. Fortunately, the only casualties were the PC, one input port on the server, and a scorch mark on the wallpaper above the cable jack. Had this been more recent, with networks rather than RS-232C connections, the damage would have been considerably more expensive.

GPS Connection Likely Peripheral To Arrests

[reallocate]

Photographing military installations is a crime in many countries, as is publishing maps of areas that include those installations.

Not to say that is right, but their employment by a GPS company was probably peripheral to the arrests.

Indian Penal Code

[Anonymous Coward]

If you think 1923 is old, check out the complete IPL (Indian Penal Code - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Penal_Code). There are still many laws from 1860s.

Back on topic, as an Indian, I can tell you that it's nowhere clear what you can take pictures of and what you can not. In India, its very easy to break laws not knowing what is legal and what isn't, and you would not know until you are caught - either by a cheap street cop looking for some quick money or by completely incompetent higher ups who have no idea about technology or reality, or simply, common sense.

not to go out on a limb

[sunking2]

But maybe they actually are terrorists? Or are terrorists not allowed to hold a job that may be to their benefit? Maybe, just maybe there is a chance they got this right?

History repeats itself ... again

[AJNeufeld]

This seems awfully similar to the story of Richard Bliss's detention in Russia. He was using GPS to determine the locations to erect cellular base stations, and was charged with spying.

Re:Well

[ElectricTurtle]

For the record, hoods + shackles are a hell of a lot more preferable to tuberculosis, malnutrition, and unsafe water.

I would snap up a chance to do time at Gitmo vs. just about any jail/prison outside of the 1st world.

Re:Crazy Indians?

[iron spartan]

The Blue Force Tracker system is an OK navigation system. The daggers, military hand held GPS sytems, are total and complete shit. Your lucky if you can find your own ass with one of those things.

When I first got into Iraq, we where told we didn't need strip maps because our convoy commander had a GPS and and "had driven the route dozens of times." We took several wrong turns in Baghdad and were lost for over an hour. We ran into a EOD cordon around an IED, and they pointed us in the right direction. On the up side, we missed 2 IED's along our planned route.

Re:Wat?

[the_bard17]

You've been putting what where?

Never mind, I don't want to know...

Re:Charged As Terrorists?

[davolfman]

Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.

FUD alert

[tanveer1979]

Sensationalist headlines read nice, don't they.
Actually they had photographs of military base on their laptop, areas which had prominently displayed "Photography prohibited"

Re:Well

[Kjellander]

For the record, hoods + shackles are a hell of a lot more preferable to tuberculosis, malnutrition, and unsafe water.

I would snap up a chance to do time at Gitmo vs. just about any jail/prison outside of the 1st world.

And I would snap up a chance to do time in any Western European prison instead of being tortured at Gitmo or anal raped in a mainland US prison. You guys aren't treating your prisoners right.

Re:Crazy Indians?

[RMH101]

I sell screwdrivers, you insensitive clod!

Re:Crazy Indians?

[(H)elix1]

2) A salesman with an install disc

Q: What is the difference between a used car and software sales?

A: The car salesman knows he is lying.