Dubai Is Building a Refrigerated Beach

dataxtream writes "The world's first refrigerated beach is to be built at a luxury hotel in Dubai, located along the southern coast of the Persian Gulf. The beach will include heat-absorbing pipes under the sand along with large wind blowers, which will keep tourists cool and guard their feet against the hot sand. Half of me says these guys need a reality check, the other half wants to go there." I believe I've just thought of a way we could solve this whole global warming thing I've been hearing about.

Comments

beach erosion/movement

[trybywrench]

I lived in Daytona until i was 12 and remember the beach landscape constantly changing. Wouldn't they have to keep moving the pipes? Like bury them deeper at times and shallower at others based on what the beach is doing that day.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Anonymous Coward]

They are filthy rich camel jockeys who made their wealth by raping the rest of the world on oil... they don't care.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[RajivSLK]

Well, I'd guess that this is a man made beach with strict engineering and erosion control.

Also, I've lived in Victoria BC Canada for most of my life and our beaches barely change at all. So all beaches are not like Daytona.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Anonymous Coward]

Not in Dubai. A pound of sand washes away, an indentured servant from India hauls in another pound to replace it.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Brigadier]

much of the beaches in Dubai are artificial. More in the sense that they have dredgers which constantly infuse new sand on the beaches to stop beach erosion. My main concern with Dubai desire to be the playground of the rich and famous is what they plan to do when terrorist realize there are infidels partying in their neck of the woods.

I've never heard Dubai speak of how they plan to handle potential hostility from extremists. It wont be long before what happened in India finds its way to Dubai

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, yes and no. I grew on an island off of the coast of North Carolina which was basically one giant beach that has to deal with erosion of not only it's beaches but the entire island. Their response to it was to replace the beach.

I am not an environmental engineer, but I do recall that they would dredge for sand that had naturally eroded off and pump it back onto the beach. They could just put the pipes down and pump the eroded sand back onto the beach every so often.

Now I'm sure it's not cheap, but Dubai is the kind of place that would have the cash for something like this. Of course if they're designing a beach, I'm sure they could include wave breakers or a way to keep the tide from causing to much erosion. Like moving the moon or building a giant water gate.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[eln]

Given that there are more foreign workers in Dubai than there are citizens, and that most of those foreign workers get by on little better than slave wages and with few rights, I'm amazed something nasty hasn't happened already.

Dubai is building their playground for the rich on the backs of exploited foreign laborers. That sort of arrangement is rarely successful over the long term. Eventually the scattered civil unrest gets larger and more organized, and then the real trouble starts.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[gujo-odori]

No, I don't expect you would hear them speak about it. Better to have it just be a surprise to the bad guys, but I'd be very surprised if there isn't a plan. Also, in a small country like Dubai, it's easy to both know and control who goes in and out, and how they do so. Additionally, I expect that in Dubai, their laws probably give them rather broad authority in that are. Finally, Dubai is at least somewhat less of a target simply by virtue of the fact that it is an Islamic nation. That isn't to say that the terrorists have any qualms about killing other Muslims with whom they disagree - they most certainly have none - but it would make them look bad to attack an Islamic nation, and while they care not a whit for human lives, they do care about image and PR. Marketing, in fact, is probably the thing they are better at than anything else.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[shutdown -p now]

The UAE doesn't have to deal with pesky problems such as "human rights". They can just post armed guard and snipers all around with orders to shoot first and ask questions later, if it really comes to that. And sink all unidentified approaching boats on sight.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Curtman]

They are filthy rich camel jockeys who made their wealth by raping the rest of the world on oil... they don't care.

Funny how oil seems to be a common theme among places building climate controlled beaches. But they've had an air conditioned beach for quite some time now.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[a_ghostwheel]

Dubai is not a country. It's either an emirate or a city (and judging from context it is a city here). Country is United Arab Emirates which does not really qualify for being called "small country".

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Beardo the Bearded]

Hey, I'm from Victoria, BC too.

Raji's right - our beaches don't change much at all, above or below the surface.

If it's a problem, they could put a net down to resist erosion and build some breakwaters to cut down on the tides.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Neanderthal Ninny]

Your correct. Remember that palm shaped islands call Palms Island, shouldn't all things be that way, and they just spray sand dredged from the bottom of the Persian gulf and lay the palm pattern.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Islands
I assume they will use breakwaters like this for the hotel but further away to make it more "aesthetic".
I don't know about how they will handle the extremist but I know how they handle the tourist already:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/10/16/dubai.sex.couple.prison/index.html
http://drinkingfromhome.blogspot.com/2006/04/dubai-rape-victim-faces-prosecution.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/31/africa/dubai.php
I don't know who is worst, the government or the extremist.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Miseph]

"all beaches are not like Daytona."

I've been to Daytona, and all I can say to that is: Thank Fucking God.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Architect_sasyr]

Apart from the data-charges (which are *lethal*), the office that I have in Dubai is more highly paid for the 8 people there than the 16 (including a CEO) in the Australian office.

Just a note, didn't really have anything to say but thought the "slave wages" was a bit of a stretch. At least for my set of foreign workers.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[evanbd]

I've never heard Dubai speak of how they plan to handle potential hostility from extremists. It wont be long before what happened in India finds its way to Dubai

Perhaps their plan is to not interfere with other countries.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't even need to use pipes, use big flexible tubes, problem pretty much solved.

The only thing i wonder is just how deep will they be?
Surface temperatures are significantly hotter than that even 1 foot under.
Pipes 1 foot under the sand?
I've built moats around my big-ass sand castle deeper than that, try 4-6 feet.
And that is where my concerns are, because i am not the only one who enjoys building AWESOME. (especially considering Dubai itself was built with the same mentality, going beyond the norm, awe-inspiring designs)

I'd love to see such a place, a cold beach in bright sunlight.
Just watch out for the polar bears.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[fictionpuss]

The funny thing is though, that if you go back a generation you'd see a role reversal in the jealousy with regards fancy Americans with their indoor plumbing and other technological innovations.

Comes around. Goes around. Etc. Get off the merry go round or keep cycling in what amounts to self hatred.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Kagura]

I don't care what the media says, I doubt we'll ever know the true motivations of the scumbags who committed mass murder in India recently

What? Do people just decide to organize a dozen people for months or years with detailed plans just for no reason, on a whim?

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Anonymous Coward]

The funny thing is though, that if you go back a generation you'd see a role reversal in the jealousy with regards fancy Americans with their indoor plumbing and other technological innovations.

Comes around. Goes around. Etc. Get off the merry go round or keep cycling in what amounts to self hatred.

Or just, you know, push for alternative fuels, and cut dependence on foreign oil. Whining solves nothing.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Anonymous Coward]

He's not talking about white collar professionals...he's talking about people from the Indian subcontinent and other poor regions that are used for manual labor (e.g. construction). I lived in the region for almost a decade, and it was shameful to see the way those people were treated, as if they were subhuman. Granted they make more than they would in their home country, but their quality of life is so low, especially in contrast with the insane amount of wealth and waste there. Even worse than their standard of living was the way they were treated by the indigenous Arab people. To give you a better context, if you've seen the movie "Syriana", the way migrant workers are treated is extremely realistic.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[AmberBlackCat]

Let's just hope they don't contract the work to the same people who make undersea internet cables.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[batkiwi]

Is this an office doing construction? Because he said it's being BUILT on slave labour.

Your co-workers are the ones the GP is referring to who are taking advantage of the things built by said labour.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[zippthorne]

What do the people in your office do? Are they out there building and maintaining the wonders of Dubai's skyline? Working the dredgers that build up the artificial islands? Serving the meals, cleaning the sheets, polishing the brass, driving the trucks?

Yeah. Of course the office workers aren't getting the slave wages. They're the rich people the slaves are building Dubai for.

Jeez man, think a little. Just because you need a job doesn't mean you're poor.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Grishnakh]

Don't be retarded. He didn't say they didn't have motivations; he said we may never know them.

I don't really agree; I think their motivations are probably pretty simple: mainly to screw up India's economy. India and Pakistan used to be the same country, but after they gained independence, the followers of the "religion of peace" and the Hindus (who weren't too peaceful either) couldn't get along, so they split up into Islamic Pakistan, and mostly-Hindu India (a corruption of "Hindustan"). Since then, they've mainly hated each other, as seen in their frequent conflicts over Kashmir, and their nuclear arms race. But what difference have we seen between them in the last 10-20 years? India has recently had a booming economy, thanks to lots of foreign investment (such as outsourcing, as there's tons of engineers and computer professionals in India, plus lots of English(sorta)-speaking people who can man phones for call centers for much lower wages than Americans. While India's economy has been booming, what's been going on in Pakistan? Not much. While the West outsources engineering and other professional jobs to India, the only thing Pakistan gets to do is make textiles (and much of that work has probably gone to China recently).

So, of course, the followers of the "religion of peace" aren't too happy about their rival's success, so they want to put a stop to it. Notice that they took out this attack in Mumbai (formerly Bombay), a big center of foreign investment, and many of their targets were places where rich foreigners were. If this happens again, I'd be surprised if it wasn't in Bangalore, another big center of foreign investment, where lots of engineering firms do work for western companies.

Personally, I think I'll avoid any travel to India for a long while, and I'll be refusing to go there for any company business (we have a big department there we work with a lot). While it certainly isn't the Indians' fault they're subject to these terrorist acts, they have the misfortune of living right next to a prime state sponsor of terror. While the "religion of peace" followers certainly hate us in the USA too, it's simply a lot harder for them to get here to do anything. Plus, if they do (and they don't do it in one of the disarmed places like NYC or Chicago or DC), they're very likely to get shot by armed citizens, if not the cops. In India, the people aren't armed, and the cops are almost disarmed and have no training, as seen in these attacks where the police simply ran away.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[rebelcan]

Not sure what it's like on the island, but in Vancouver, our beaches are only usable ( due to too much cold/wind/rain or just not enough heat ) most of the year, so stuff moving around isn't a problem.

Then again, the opposite of this technology ( warming the sand ) might be useful for people who frequent Wreck Beach

Re:beach erosion/movement

[G-Man]

Yeah, because all those imperialists in Darfur, Bali, the Philippines, etc., etc., really had it coming to them.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

So, of course, the followers of the "religion of peace" aren't too happy about their rival's success, so they want to put a stop to it.

With almost as many "followers of the religion of peace" living in India as live in all of Pakistan, they really don't need Pakistan around to fuck over India if they wanted too. Oh well.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[flyonthewall]

Lots of bad guys in the UAE and more specifically in Dubai. Lots of good guys too. However the area (both Dubai and Abu Dabi) is a financial centre for the bad guys. They will not do anything to jeopardize that as they know the instant they raise trouble they will lose that privilege.

So, in the end everyone is looking at each other in the white of the eyes, restraining themselves (and just collecting Int).

Actually quite safe for a middle eastern country as long as you do not try to stick out like a sore thumb.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Grishnakh]

The terrorists in Mumbai arrived in an identified boat. They hijacked a fishing vessel, killed the crew, and kept the captain alive long enough to come into port safely without arousing suspicion. Unless UAE intends to station troops on all fishing boats that leave its ports, it would also be vulnerable to such an attack. Of course, they really don't have to worry, since the "religion of peace" followers wouldn't dare attack an Islamic country, as that would be bad PR.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends on how you classify "small country". If it's by land mass, hell yes it's a small friggen country. If it's by population, again, small country. If it's by GDP per capita, then it's a big country.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Anonymous Coward]

I have lived just outside of Daytona for more than 20 years. The last time I even went to the beach was about 10 years ago - maybe longer. Beaches are overrated.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Anonymous Coward]

I've lived in Victoria BC Canada for most of my life and our beaches barely change at all.

The beaches along Dallas Road have been engineered to reduce erosion. Other beaches around Victoria, especially those west of the city out towards Sooke and Port Renfrew, change quite noticeably from summer to winter and back again.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Anonymous Coward]

I think he was referring more to manual laborers.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Anonymous Coward]

The "office" that you have there probably isn't made of construction workers building a beach.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong! Shell, BP and Haliburton are NOT from Dubai!

Take another guess WHO has raped the world, I'll give you some names as a hint

• United Fruit
• ITT
• General Motors

You have two guesses left

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Anonymous Coward]

Just shut the fuck up you idiot.

There is ONE ceo .. the C stands for CHIEF. as in .. HEAD CHEESE .. BOSS MAN .. ONE.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Slashdotvagina]

the office that I have in Dubai is more highly paid for the 8 people there than the 16 (including a CEO) in the Australian office.

Are you trying to say that you pay the office a salary? What does it mean for the office to be highly paid?

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Anonymous Coward]

I was in the Dubai Mall earlier this year months before it was finished. Slave labor and slave pay is about the best way i would explain the workers there. it was pretty bad to say the least. hundreds of workers in terrible conditions working LONG hours and getting next to nothing in pay. i felt bad for most of them.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[evol262]

Ahem. Care to rescind that statement?

Re:beach erosion/movement

[JoeMerchant]

The beach in MonteCarlo is completely imported gravel, very comfy to lay on, and the particles are not small enough to shift. I imagine this beach will be in a "cove" which is not subject to the longshore currents and rearranging that many natural beaches (like Daytona) are.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[JoeMerchant]

Dubai is small enough that security can be handled like it is in places like MonteCarlo - quietly, discretely, and very very effectively.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[JoeMerchant]

People in that part of the world have put up with "inhuman abuse" for thousands of years - it's a different mindset from "the west."

Re:beach erosion/movement

[timeOday]

People in that part of the world have put up with "inhuman abuse" for thousands of years - it's a different mindset from "the west."

Is it? The Old Testament is pretty clear that the Jews didn't much care for servitude. The history of constant unrest in that part of the world for the last N-thousand years says a lot too. And before you attribute all that to purely theological differences rather than materialism, remember that one of the principal hopes in the great messiah was to free the chosen people from bondage. (Only later did Christians retrospectively interpret that as freeing them from spiritial bondage, i.e. the kind you can be "freed" from and still live under the thumb of a tyrannical king).

When a bunch of poor people lose hope in becoming Horatio Alger stories and start seeing themselves as a persecuted minority, that is a recipe for unrest. Especially when the better-off people take the attitude that, "hey, they should be grateful for having it as well of as they do, considering they're (whatever)."

Re:beach erosion/movement

[drewxhawaii]

Also, in a small country like Dubai, it's easy to both know and control who goes in and out, and how they do so.

My understanding is that if you have a stamp from Israel in your passport, you cannot enter Dubai.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[shutdown -p now]

Of course, they really don't have to worry, since the "religion of peace" followers wouldn't dare attack an Islamic country, as that would be bad PR.

Islam has a lot of internal strife. Osama sleeps and dreams of attacking Saudi Arabia - certainly an Islamic country.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Omegamogo]

There have already been quite a few terrorist attacks in the last few years here in Saudi Arabia. The grand majority of victims in those attacks being Muslims. As you may have guessed, this hasn't made them too popular; there's been a domestic 'war on terror' of sorts going on for the last five or so years, skirmishes between the disparate cells and police forces/counter terrorism units happen every few months or so. Craploads of suspects have been jailed and are awaiting trial now.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Anonymous Coward]

There is an emirate of Dubai and a municipality of Dubai...

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Anonymous Coward]

UAE is the size of Austria... how does it NOT qualify for being called "small country" ?

Re:beach erosion/movement

[meringuoid]

People in that part of the world have put up with "inhuman abuse" for thousands of years - it's a different mindset from "the west."

Oh, well that's all right then.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[meringuoid]

The Old Testament is pretty clear that the Jews didn't much care for servitude.

That would be why it gives rules on how they should treat their slaves.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Anonymous Coward]

"The funny thing is though, that if you go back a generation you'd see a role reversal in the jealousy with regards fancy Americans with their indoor plumbing and other technological innovations."

Funnily enough, no. The British had the best plumbing, typically because of their Victorian sewage engineers. Within living memory American plumbing was third-world, even in the outskirts of cities. The British had superb country-wide services by 1900...

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Anonymous Coward]

I was in Dubai last month and asked the same question to people there, it seems the ruler(Sheikh) has been able to convince the terrorist organizations, with money, to not attack his projects. UAE(of which Dubai is a part) does not have a democratically elected govt. and so the ruler's wishes are final. Thats why we see such outrageous projects coming up there(outrageous in terms of the effects on global warming) - they also have an indoor ski slope, which was pretty big - while it is 100 F outside.
One more interesting thing that I learnt was, Dubai has only 10% of its revenue coming from oil, the majority is from tourism and business.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[timeOday]

Good point. People don't like being slaves. Having slaves on the other hand is another matter.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[rogue780]

It's called, "the Principle of Retarding Lead."

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Grishnakh]

Like any crazy religion, the followers of the "religion of peace" aren't all the same; not all are extremists, wanting to blow up people. The ones who sway that direction are apparently found mostly in Pakistan, in that region.

This doesn't change the fact that the religion itself is violent and evil; it's just that most followers ignore the parts of their holy book that have the most violent, evil parts, just as most Christians ignore the parts of the Bible that condone slavery and mass murder, along with eating pork (they even have a convenient excuse, that that stuff is only for the Israelites, and when Jesus came suddenly those laws didn't apply any more).

Re:beach erosion/movement

[HiThere]

There was an interesting article I read recently about a genetically modified e-coli that produced an eight carbon long alcohol. (I'm not sure how long gasoline is.)

Now this is probably the wrong starter organism, but according to the article they only tried with e-coli because the genome was so thoroughly studied, and in principle they could do the same thing with a large number of other hosts. Say, something that lived on sewage...

The advantages of a long chain alcohol are supposed to be:
1) It separates easily and relatively completely from water
2) Each molecule carries a lot more energy.

I doubt that any one source would suffice, but sewage + waste dumps + algae ponds might suffice to power a large fraction of the vehicles. (Or it might not. I've no idea how efficient this process would be.)

P.S.: I don't disapprove of this project because I'm jealous. If I were there I'd probably never go to the beach anyway. I disapprove of it because it adds carbon to the atmosphere. (They don't say, but I presume so. If they're using solar then I withdraw all my objections.)

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Like any crazy religion, the followers of the "religion of peace" aren't all the same; not all are extremists, wanting to blow up people. The ones who sway that direction are apparently found mostly in Pakistan, in that region.

This doesn't change the fact that the religion itself is violent and evil;

Rrright. Its always the religion and the extremists are just the ones who are the most devout. Sociological factors like economics and politics are never the root cause despite being common across most if not all extremists regardless of religion or lack there of.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Grishnakh]

That's exactly right. As far as I'm concerned, the extremists are the only ones who properly practice their religion. Most followers are hypocrites: they claim to be adherents of the religion, but then they don't actually do what it says, and try to find ways of weaseling out of the more distasteful requirements.

Of course, sociological factors cause people to do things, but having a religion which condones their actions gives them an excuse. If we actually had religions which required their believers to be good, just people, maybe we wouldn't have as many of these problems. Religious extremists don't think of themselves as "bad" people; they're doing what their god says is right. If they didn't have a religion giving them the OK to murder people, they'd have to think twice about it. They might still do it, but it's a lot easier to get people to avoid violent acts when their cultural belief system prohibits it. In the case of the Abrahamic religions, the belief system condones these acts.

Check out evilbible.org to see how the Christian Bible is full of atrocities which the Christian god condones.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

That's exactly right. As far as I'm concerned, the extremists are the only ones who properly practice their religion.

Lol. How ridiculous. A religion is defined by its worst possible interpretation. Never mind that the people who typically make that interpretation are not looking for guidance, they are looking for justification and are prone to all kinds of errors in favor of that justification.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Anonymous Coward]

that is true. their economy is bolstered on slave labor.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Grishnakh]

Interpretation? It's written in black-and-white in those holy books. I don't know how much clearer it could get.

Here's some select quotes from the Bible, for instance:

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) - apparently the Bible condones murdering homosexuals, even though they were created that way by God. Many Christians now still believe this, or at least believe in treating them badly.

"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death." (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

"Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed." (Exodus 22:19 NAB) - worshiping other religions is punishable by death.

"But if this charge is true, and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst." (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB) - women who aren't virgins when they marry must be murdered.

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst." (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB) - followers of other religions must be murdered.

And you want to tell me that I'm misinterpreting these passages? That's ridiculous.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Interpretation? It's written in black-and-white in those holy books. I don't know how much clearer it could get.
...
And you want to tell me that I'm misinterpreting these passages? That's ridiculous.

You demonstrate exactly how the extremists think. They cherry pick and then they come back and say things like "how much clearer could it get?" But they and you ignore contradictions and chose the worst possible interpretation as it suits you. You clearly know what you are doing because you pre-excused your dismissal of the contradictions by saying "they even have a convenient excuse" - it is not an excuse - it is words that are at least as much a part of the bible, but you chose to ignore it in favor of the worst possible interpretation.

So, no you are not misinterpreting those passages - you are misinterpreting the entire body of the text as a whole.
Religion is not simply a bunch of unrelated sound bites.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Fred_A]

My understanding is that if you have a stamp from Israel in your passport, you cannot enter Dubai.

It's the case in a lot of Middle East and Gulf countries and the reason why nobody ever has his passport stamped when going to Israel, at least if he plans on travelling a bit. It's perfectly understood by the border people then who give the visas on a separate sheet (which you keep in your passport for the duration of your stay).

Not especially relevant to the discussion anyway.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Grishnakh]

You demonstrate exactly how the extremists think. They cherry pick and then they come back and say things like "how much clearer could it get?" But they and you ignore contradictions and chose the worst possible interpretation as it suits you.

Don't be ridiculous. Contradictions? I thought this book is supposed to be the infallible word of God, without error. If it has no error, then how can there be contradictions? If there's contradictions, then obviously the religion is false.

If it's so easy to misinterpret God's word, then God obviously screwed up. Or maybe, applying Occam's Razor, God didn't write that book to begin with.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[JoeMerchant]

Arabs are not Jews... Jews do have a very Western mindset.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[JoeMerchant]

People in that part of the world have put up with "inhuman abuse" for thousands of years - it's a different mindset from "the west."

Oh, well that's all right then.

Actually, it might be for them - I wouldn't want it for myself, but I'm not sure we should be starting wars we cannot finish in the name of making them more like us.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[that this is not und]

The Red Army?

The People's Liberation Army?

(or do we go into particulars of specific heavy industries in Eastern Block Countries?)

Re:beach erosion/movement

[eikonos]

Also, I've lived in Victoria BC Canada for most of my life and our beaches barely change at all.

But Victoria's beaches are already refrigerated. Which is a shame because they should be heated.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[mcfatboy93]

but remember in Dubai they can afford to move them.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[The Cydonian]

In India, the people aren't armed, and the cops are almost disarmed and have no training, as seen in these attacks where the police simply ran away.

The only suicide bomber ever caught alive was in Bombay, where the brave police of DB Marg police station simply lunged at them:

Ombale rushed to secure him when the terrorist started pumping away with the AK-47. Call it guts or instinct but Tukaram Gopal Ombale refused to let go of his assailant. I am told that something like 30 bullets were recovered from his body.

Feel free to be afraid of being in India for all you want; that's your right. Feel free to give us suggestions on how to deal with the situation (although, I'm not sure how carrying guns would help in a situation where everyone's jumping nervously when a metal detector goes off). Feel free to accuse them of corruption and a general lack of weaponry, among other things. But don't, DON'T, ever question the bravery of the Mumbai police; there was some extreme heroism on display on those three nights there. I'll trust my life with these people before any armed band of vigilantes in Smalltown, US.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[The Cydonian]

Dubai doesn't have a long history of using its secret agencies to overthrow democratically elected governments and replace them with dictators more favorable to its interests, so I strongly doubt they're going to have problems with "terrorists" like Western nations have had.

Which is why, say, Muslim-ruled Saudi Arabia hasn't had any terrorist attacks. There have been no attacks on foreign workers, nor on resident families.

I doubt we'll ever know the true motivations of the scumbags who committed mass murder in India recently

You can accuse the perperators of many things, but a lack of clarity in their message isn't one of them:

LeT head Hafiz Saeed said at a rally in Karachi in 2000: "There canâ(TM)t be any peace while India remains intact. Cut them, cut them â" cut them so much that they kneel before you and ask for mercy."

That "they" (and I mean the greater "non-state" nexus using Islam as an excuse) hate _India_ and want to "liberate" previously Muslim-ruled states isn't conjecture anymore; it was amply clear, and indeed, was the stated goal of the so-called Deccan Mujahideen, who purportedly carried out the attacks. That Muslim mohallas across South Asia have become drastically radicalized is also not a matter of conjecture anymore; there are Islamicist "sleeper cells" even in otherwise idyllic, Muslim-majority Maldives. One of the most peaceful places in the world, the mostly uninhabited Lakshadweep archipalego which until recently had a mere 100 police constables, now needs augmented anti-terrorism monitoring stations. It's all very scary for all peace-loving, broad-minded citizens; I think the sheer fact is that governments across the region, both in Muslim-majority nations and otherwise, simply don't know what to do with it all. All our armies are trained to fight each other, not this.

I'll also say this:- I'm very very cynical about all this, but I do think we're past a certain tipping-point now, and the world in general, is on course for a collision of sorts. I don't see _any way_ in which things are tapering down at all; if anything, in this hyper-connected world where local crime-beat news makes international headlines, things tend to have a bigger impact than before. All news is global, all causes inter-linked; governments and societies simply don't know how to deal with all this.

see the recent article about how cartography can get you terrorism charges in India

Heightened times, people _are_ scared especially in the western border regions, but they were fully cleared by the Ministry of Defence beforehand. The local police has already given them a clean chit, although the state's Anti-Terrorism Squad is proceeding cautiously.

I'm actually more bothered about the Public interest litigation in Bombay High Court against Google maps. Citizens not connected with the executive have decided for themselves that Google maps needs to be censored. That is a worrying development; while the state can and will always try to increase regulation, in a democratic society, informed citizenry can and will fight back. It'll be a scary day when citizenry themselves start falling for the crap.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Muros]

I'm not sure where you're getting your "slave wages" thing from. From what I've heard, from people who have gone over there to work, and not always in traditionally high paying jobs, foreigners in Dubai get a very very good deal. They have a shitload of oil money just sloshing around and aren't quite sure what to do with it, which is why you see them doing weird, wonderful, and sometimes outright stupid things, trying to make sure that Dubai is a place rich people will still call into on holidays after the oil runs out.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Muros]

OK I responded above asking what was meant, but now I know what you were getting at. I have a friend who worked there, made very good money, but said that every now and then, THINGS happenned. Like, an indigenous woman would scream at you for being in front of you in the queue in a shop, and you simply accepted it and moved behind her. And above all else, you did not try to talk to her. You accept you are second class and get paid for it. Thats how things worked for people who came from countries that dont have a shitload of oil, but are, apart from having obscene amounts of oil cash, better off on average (socially, educationally, etc) than the average oil selling 1 family in charge of a nation abomination that seems to happen a lot in the middle east. When I think about it rationally in those terms, yes I can see how I would hate to be from a country BELOW them in the pecking order.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Don't be ridiculous. Contradictions? I thought this book is supposed to be the infallible word of God, without error.

What book are you talking about? Certainly not the Bible from which you were quoting.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[badkarmadayaccount]

Breathing also adds carbon to the atmosphere you know? http://www.junkscience.com/ *says goodbye to karma*

Re:beach erosion/movement

[thieving.cunce]

can you please show me on a map where the terrorists live? do they have a territory or something near the uae?

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Grishnakh]

Yes, the Bible. According to most Christians, it's the word of God, and has no errors.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Grishnakh]

Oh please. One brave officer doesn't make the entire force brave or effective. There are plenty of firsthand reports about Mumbai police hiding and refusing to return fire. Of course, some people even claim that these police didn't even have any ammunition in their bolt-action rifles, so if that's true, I certainly can't blame them, as that would be suicidal.

Carrying guns is helpful because armed citizens are a strong deterrent to invasion. When a sniper attacked people from the University of Texas bell tower in Austin back in the 60s, the main reason he didn't kill more people than he did was because a lot of local got their rifles from their pickups and shot back at him, forcing him to stay down until the police broke into the tower, went to the top, and killed him.

The Generals of Japan rejected the idea of a land attack on the US back in WWII because the American public was too well armed, and would have been far too difficult to effectively invade.

Just recently, some nut barged into the New Life church in Colorado with several weapons and hundreds of rounds of ammo. After killing two girls in the parking lot, he went into the building, and was shot by an armed civilian inside, before he could hurt anyone else. If they had relied on the police, dozens would have died.

As for trusting the police with your life: that seems pretty silly if you're not willing to trust them with anything more than a bolt-action rifle, possibly without any ammunition, and zero training on how to use it.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[The Cydonian]

Oh please. One brave officer doesn't make the entire force brave or effective. There are plenty of firsthand reports about Mumbai police hiding and refusing to return fire. Of course, some people even claim that these police didn't even have any ammunition in their bolt-action rifles, so if that's true, I certainly can't blame them, as that would be suicidal.

A friend of a friend survived the ordeal at the Taj and two of his friends died there. A neighbour was killed at the Oberoi hotel. I know people in south Mumbai who saw action up-close, and all of them are unanimous in talking about the bravery shown by the Mumbai police; people forget that there were engaged in 13 different locations across Mumbai, before the three situations in Nariman House, Oberoi and the Taj emerged.

We most definitely agree that the police needed more firepower, as with bullet-proof vests and the rapid-response team's reaction-time; there were some significant, and wholly unacceptable delays in responding to the situation that could have saved many more lives. But that the Mumbai police did _not_ engage the terrorists isn't something that I've been told by people I know, and I see no reason to think otherwise based on what you said.

Carrying guns is helpful because armed citizens are a strong deterrent to invasion.

I think you misunderstand the nature of the challenge here; the challenge is _not_ an armed invasion, it is a _sustained_ period of possible violence by unnamed killers. _Across_ Asia, and they're doing this in Singapore, Kuala Lumpur and Bali as well in addition to India, they have metal-detectors and constant frisking in public places. When everyone is on the lookout for the odd bomb going off somewhere, I'm afraid I still don't see how increasing the number of guns will help the security perception in any way; while the authorities have a hard time dealing with 10 sharp-shooters at random, imagine how much more trouble they would have with thousands of such guns.

The challenge isn't an armed militia here, or people with assault rifles; we've dealt with that with reasonable success in India, in Punjab, Assam, Mizoram and other places. The challenge here is armed bands of folks with _massive_ firepower - we're talking MP5's with 300 rounds of bullets - and it's next to impossible to say who's legit and who isn't. (Note that all the 10 terrorists had Hindu arm-bands and fake ID's from colleges in other parts of the country) I'm really sorry, I still don't see how increasing the number of guns on the street will help in any way.

Btw, for what it's worth, India's laws, if I'm not wrong, are roughly equivalent to those in, say, Israel; which is to say you're allowed guns as long as you take a licence. That said, the right to bear arms is a wholly American proposition with little or no consequence in the rest of the world; I don't wish to question your interest in, or enthusiasm for, guns, and do not expect you to understand why the rest of the world doesn't entirely see this in the same way you do. All I wanted to say was this: the Mumbai police was badly armed and had a shoddy fast-response, but it was engaging the enemy at every encounter. All reports I've heard point me in that direction.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Yes, the Bible. According to most Christians, it's the word of God, and has no errors.

No. The only christians who think that are... wait for it... the ignorant extremists who want to think exactly like you do.

Any reasonable christian knows that there have been dozens of versions of the bible over the years, that the original texts do not even exist any more and that most chapters were written by people, not God. For example, the epistles of Paul are, at the very least, written by Paul or one of his disciples.

I'm pretty much done here, you couldn't have done a better job of demonstrating that extremists are not looking for guidance, they are looking for justification and are prone to making all kinds of ridiculous errors in favor of that justification. I doubt I have convinced you of anything, but then that's the nature of extremism - justification trumps education.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Grishnakh]

Sorry, no. Most American Christians believe that way. You may think they're all extremists, and I'd agree, except for the fact that when a very sizable portion of a population agrees on something, it can no longer be correctly called "extremist", but rather "mainstream".

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Sorry, no. Most American Christians believe that way.

Just because you keep saying something does not make it true.
It is also indicative of your extremism how you've tried to narrow your definitions down from "most christians" to "most american christians" - which is still false:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/27682/OneThird-Americans-Believe-Bible-Literally-True.aspx

Re:beach erosion/movement

[pkphilip]

You have touched upon a topic which is very rarely discussed.

The conditions that the Indian migrant workers endure in the middle-east is beyond believable. It is true slave labour in more ways than one.

Most people who travel to the middle-east from India and the neighbouring nations come from poor backgrounds - they are the construction workers, clerks and so on. They are quite different from those who travel to the west (IT professionals, doctors etc).

Also, they aren't adequately represented by the Indian (Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Afghani) government. And the employers (called "sponsors") in the middle-east exploit this to the hilt.

* The employers will normally confiscate the passport of the employees as soon as they arrive. Women who come into these countries as nurses, maids etc are very regularly sexually exploited once their passports have been taken from them.

* If the employee tries to go back home without getting the permission of their employer, they can and most likely will be arrested. This happens not just to the labourers but also to some white collar professionals.

* The living conditions in the middle-east are absolutely deplorable. I have heard of cases where over a dozen labourers were squeezed into a small approx. 24x24 ft living quarters with just a small air-conditioner which is woefully inadequate in the desert climate.

* Many labourers get under $100 a month.. this is in a place where the cost of living is really high.

* Also, it is very difficult to change employers. The Arab employers completely subjugate them and the employees have no option but to endure these conditions till the time that they can leave the nation and since their travel papers are with their employers, they will need to wait out their contract terms.

Those who travel from India and the neighbouring nations are quite often aware of these extreme conditions but nonetheless choose to endure them because of extreme poverty.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/08/middleeast.construction

Re:beach erosion/movement

[pkphilip]

Some additional links:

If you want to see some pictures of what the living conditions look like:

http://www.qatarliving.com/node/14416

Re:beach erosion/movement

[pkphilip]

I am posting this again because I believe the world needs to see this.

This is what living conditions look like for the migrant workers in the middle-east:

http://www.qatarliving.com/node/14416

Article in the Guardian about this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/08/middleeast.construction

Before the middle-easterners start complaining about things like racial profiling, they will need to address the mess in their own backyard.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[tehcyder]

So racism is now modded up as insightful?

Re:beach erosion/movement

[tehcyder]

Personally, I think I'll avoid any travel to India for a long while, and I'll be refusing to go there for any company business

Yeah, that'll show the terrorists all right...

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Amouth]

if you where to do this in daytona then yes it would be a nightmare.. but in Dubai it is very diffrent - the waters there are by far the commest in the world.. their beachs have the waves and errosion of a lake.. think of the water with nearly no tide change and no storms.. this is the same place that has built island comunities in diffrent shapes.. they don't have to (for now) worrie about errosion or all that funn stuff a normal beach has to.

This will work and will work amazingly well and shouldn't require alot of maintenance if they do it right... and if it does.. they are so damn rich they can just pay the bill

Re:beach erosion/movement

[baggins2001]

I don't think they are that worried, because they are the extremists.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[ncc74656]

Don't be ridiculous. Contradictions? I thought [the Bible] is supposed to be the infallible word of God, without error. If it has no error, then how can there be contradictions? If there's contradictions, then obviously the religion is false.

You must have the Bible and the Koran mixed up. The Bible is not the literal word of God; if it is, how do you explain that various parts of the New Testament are called "the Gospel according to $APOSTLE?" If they were considered to be the literal word of God, that kind of identification wouldn't make sense. Mohammedans, OTOH, do regard the Koran as the literal word of Allah...so much so that translations to languages other than Arabic are considered non-canonical. (There's no such restriction on translations of the Bible.)

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Grishnakh]

What are you talking about? Polls I've seen put Christians in America at around 50% of the population (this means people who actually go to Christian churches, i.e. practicing Christians). If 1/3 of Americans believe the Bible is literally true, and 1/2 of Americans are Christian, that's a majority of American Christians, just as I said.

It's important to note that American Christians are like this, since Christians in other countries, with a few exceptions, tend not to be nearly as extremist/fundmentalist as American Christians. If America were some unimportant country, I wouldn't even be talking about this, but since America is the most powerful country and dominates international politics and affairs so much, it's important to know what so many Americans (especially so many American voters, as these same people are largely responsible for electing George W Bush) believe in, as it's going to have a big effect on people outside America.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Read the damn link. Stop making up shit to rationalize your own insanity.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Grishnakh]

You must have the Bible and the Koran mixed up. The Bible is not the literal word of God; if it is, how do you explain that various parts of the New Testament are called "the Gospel according to $APOSTLE?" If they were considered to be the literal word of God, that kind of identification wouldn't make sense.

I've only heard the phrase "the gospel according to $APOSTLE" in Catholic churches. Most evangelical Christians in America believe the Bible to be the "inspired" word of god, meaning it has no errors, except maybe those introduced by translation.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Grishnakh]

The point isn't to "show" the terrorists anything, it's to avoid becoming a victim of terrorists. While terrorism can obviously strike anywhere, it's certainly far more likely in a place like India, which is right next to where most of the terrorists live, than $smalltown, USA which is nowhere near them, or even $largecity, USA, since large oceans on each side make it a lot more expensive to travel here with caches of weapons.

For the same reason, I'd prefer to avoid any travel to Israel, although at least there, they're far more effective in their defenses and responses to terrorism than India is, with their unarmed society (unlike Israel) and their police armed with WWI-era bolt-action rifles.

Re:beach erosion/movement

[Kharny]

unfortunately, since the 1900 the british didn't actually update or change anything.

Whenever i am in the UK, i know that i have to take atleast 30 minutes extra for a shower since the lack of waterpressure makes it feel more like a gentle rain than a shower

Patent Pending

[Anonymous Coward]

I just submitted the patent on this.
The world is in a global economic depression and they are rigging up their beach with AC. Give me a break.

Re:Patent Pending

[donscarletti]

The world is in a global economic depression and they are rigging up their beach with AC. Give me a break.

The world is in a global economic depression because everyone's too worried about the global economic depression to spend enough money to pick the economy back up. If you've got the money to spend on something that takes an enormous amount of labour it will be a great thing for the economy as the extra cash circulating will boost everyone's confidence to spend their own. Plus, if you ever wanted to have something like this built, now is the time.

Re:Patent Pending

[Joce640k]

Keep on driving those SUVs - that's what's ruining your economy and feeding theirs.

Re:Patent Pending

[inzy]

and funding the terrorists.

how else did you think osama's family made their billions?

oh, the irony......

Re:Patent Pending

[causality]

The world is in a global economic depression and they are rigging up their beach with AC. Give me a break.

The world is in a global economic depression because everyone's too worried about the global economic depression to spend enough money to pick the economy back up. If you've got the money to spend on something that takes an enormous amount of labour it will be a great thing for the economy as the extra cash circulating will boost everyone's confidence to spend their own. Plus, if you ever wanted to have something like this built, now is the time.

The world is in a global economic depression because the wealthiest nations have all adopted a centralized banking system like the USA's Federal Reserve. This system, inherently and by design, has more debt than currency in circulation to pay that debt because interest (the "prime rate") is attached to money the moment it is created.

Let's say that the Federal Reserve has just been set up. There is currently no money in circulation so the first money is created. The prime rate (to make up a nice workable number) is 5%. Let's say the Fed creates ten billion dollars. The Fed gives the USA Government ten billion dollars. In exchange, the USA Government gives the Fed government bonds (a promise to pay back) worth $10,500,000,000 (the original ten billion plus the 5% interest). Now you have money in circulation. Except now you have a problem because there is only ten billion dollars in your entire economy and there is ten billion five-hundred million dollars in debt. The only thing you can do is keep borrowing more money (also at interest) to pay down the interest, and to borrow yet more to pay down the interest from that, ad nauseum. What you have is a downwardly-spiraling cycle of debt. Debt, the only form of slavery that's still legal. What's funny about this is that even if you could pay off all debt (and under this system, you can't), the result would be no more money in circulation!

To say that inflation is built into this system does not even begin to scratch the surface. You have more debt than you have dollars in circulation, and the dollars effectively represent debt and not wealth. That excess debt doesn't just go away. Someone ends up holding that debt. These are your bankruptcies and foreclosures and your bailouts. Bad decision-making causes many of these, but with this system they must exist no matter what and furthermore, they must get worse because it's a debt cycle. So, decision-making merely decides who winds up with this debt. And what is the result of debt and bankruptcy? The result is that the banks foreclose and become the owners of actual wealth (as opposed to fiat currency) like real estate.

That's why the debates about whether to bail out The Big Three are phony. The debate about whether efforts to give credit to people with poor credit histories caused the mortgage crisis (during which less than 5% of buyers defaulted) is also immaterial even if every point raised is valid. The system is inherently broken, no amount of tinkering will fix it, and it's not like the media is going to point this out even though this fact can be known by anyone who cares to study the Federal Reserve and fractional reserve banking.

I hope people understand why the Founding Fathers considered centralized banks to be more dangerous than standing armies or why Nathan Rothschild said "Let me issue and control a nationâ(TM)s currency and I care not who makes its laws.â Maybe you also see how the media is not your friend; they will maintain the illusion of lively debate but always in a way that can't possibly change anything because it's completely irrelevant and doesn't address the actual problem. How many examples of that do you need to see before you start thinking that maybe it isn't an accident?

Re:Patent Pending

[genik76]

Economic depression comes around every 10 years, give or take a few years. No matter what you do, it repeats. In the beginnig of a depression, people start to work harder again, and in the of the good times, everygbody's changing jobs to get more money, everything's chaotic and companies lose money. Buy your stocks now, it's the best time.

Re:Patent Pending

[cliffski]

I thought osamas family made money from construction?

Re:Patent Pending

[DragonWriter]

The world is in a global economic depression because the wealthiest nations have all adopted a centralized banking system like the USA's Federal Reserve. This system, inherently and by design, has more debt than currency in circulation to pay that debt because interest (the "prime rate") is attached to money the moment it is created.

Uh, no.

That was all true for a long time without an global economic depression.

There is a recession in the US and some other places which may become a global economic depression because of a massive credit seize-up in the wake of, among other things, the bursting of the housing bubble in the US, and because of other factors (including the decline in income in the bottom four quintiles even during the most recent expansion in the US) reducing both industrial and consumer demand. The global reach of the crisis is due to the effect that the world economy is massively integrated through investment and trade.

The independent central banks that have become a near-universal norm have only marginal relevance; they aren't a significant cause of the problem (government policies in the US, like Gramm-Leach-Bliley, probably a significant role, but that's not central bank action.) Nor, for that matter, are they capable of doing much about the problem; they are mostly capable of short-term stabilization of minor disruptions, big crises render monetary responses mostly meaningless except as slight mitigation at best.

Let's say that the Federal Reserve has just been set up. There is currently no money in circulation so the first money is created.

Um, there was money in circulation when the Federal Reserve was set up.

I hope people understand why the Founding Fathers considered centralized banks to be more dangerous than standing armies

"the Founding Fathers" did no such thing. Certain of the Founding Fathers opposed a central bank (Jefferson and those that went on to form the nucleus of the Democratic-Republicans), OTOH, certain of the Founding Fathers (e.g., Alexandar Hamilton and the rest of those that went on to form the nucleus of the Federalists) certainly favored a central bank as a desirable thing.

Re:Patent Pending

[Whiteox]

You are right regarding how money is 'made' - but don't tell anyone. It's still a secret.

The apparent cost of goods had me worried a decade ago, when things like DVD players dropped well below their apparent worth.
Now I can buy a dvd player for $35 (AUD). If you open one up you can see parts in them that supposedly add up to $5? That's ridiculous!
$5 manufacturing
$5 wholesale profit
2x$5 distribution and freight - country of origin to country of destination
$5 local wholesale profit
$5 dealer profit
with a leeway of $5 for approximations.

So the difference between apparent worth and real worth has been skewed by trade, economies of scale, taxes and offsets to make monetary value a joke. It's just unrealistic.

The fact that reserve banks can create money just by adding a zero or two makes the whole world economy very suspect. It's broken badly and the solution may be to get back to basics, and that is trade.
I'll give you a boat-load of iron for a boat-load of grain.

Re:Patent Pending

[causality]

My point was that you have a broken system and oddly enough, you are getting bad results from this broken system. Much of what I did not go into depth about but did imply is that I believe that much of this current crisis is either engineered to begin with or at least leveraged in the classic Problem-Reaction-Solution pattern so frequently seen in modern governments. You did not address my core point which is that so long as you have a system like the Fed, you will always have more debt than dollars in circulation and no amount of tinkering will change that. The system is destined to collapse one way or another, for many of the same reasons why Ponzi schemes must eventually fail. The items you mention, like the bursting of the housing bubble, only impact when this system fails. I never claimed that you can't have a depression without a fractional reserve system, only that this built-in debt that no one in the mainstream media ever talks about (except in vague aggregate terms like "national debt") is a huge factor in the current depression.

Also, I gave a figurative illustration for the sake of simplifying the explanation. Yes, there was money in circulation before the Federal Reserve was set up. It also took a while before the gold-backed and silver-backed currencies were phased out because you don't just change your entire monetary system overnight, it's not quite so simple. None of these implementation details had much to do with my overall point, so I omitted them. It was an obvious omission and it was intended to be an obvious omission. Pointing this out is supposed to accomplish what, exactly? Do I really need to disclaim every analogy and every simplified explanation so that someone doesn't come along and say "ah-HAH!" and sincerely believe he's really nailed me this time? Because I've tried that and found that the people who want an easy "victory" that badly will ignore any disclaimers or clarifications I give. Well, I say "victory" but what they really seem to want is to dismiss you without actually addressing the points you raise. The primary motivation is not that they have reasons for disagreeing and would like to see if a consensus can be reached but because they dislike what you say. I suppose at this point I should sigh and, just for you, add something like "of course, having a primary motivation of disliking what a guy says and having actual reasons to disagree are not mutually exclusive". Generally, people don't seem very interested in truth; what they seem to want is palatable truth that makes them feel better. This is one of those things (a character weakness, actually) that I consider to be "not my problem" and I generally refuse to accommodate it.

Assuming you are sincerely interested in this, you may find it interesting to research Andrew Jackson, his stated reasons for opposing the central bank of his time, and in particular what he says about said bank's control of government and his warning to future generations. The current situation is yet another example of failure to learn from history. I'm pretty tired of these to be honest with you; I'm wondering when we'll finally make some novel mistakes.

Re:Patent Pending

[majid_aldo]

Dubai has pretty much run out of oil, for your information. also, the US imports less than 15% of its oil from ALL the middle east. i hate correcting simple facts.

Re:Patent Pending

[Fulcrum of Evil]

so what? Osama's not really in the good graces of his family.

Re:Patent Pending

[JoeMerchant]

There must be a significant amount of counterfeit currency floating today, because I believe it is actually possible for the government to pay off the total current debt without removing all money from circulation.

Re:Patent Pending

[JoeMerchant]

I especially like the way the auto industry and energy industry are putting on a repeat performance of 1973, right down to getting everybody to drive big gas guzzlers just before jacking up fuel prices 300%, and the resurgent interest in wind/solar/electric vehicles, etc.

Re:Patent Pending

[Anonymous Coward]

then they spend their money contracting our engineering companies to build these wonders which creates jobs back home ... oh and they also buy the SUVs which are no longer in demand here.
"Its the economy stupid"

Re:Patent Pending

[mdmkolbe]

You most makes no sense because money is a debt owed to the holder of that money. Money is a good that is traded not for it's direct utility or value but for the expectation of future utility or value when it is used to buy something. Yet, a promise of future value is the very definition of a debt. This is independent of whether there is a Federal Reserve system or not, a gold standard or not. With that in mind, your comments really sound like gibberish to me.

Re:Patent Pending

[cynical kane]

This system, inherently and by design, has more debt than currency in circulation to pay that debt because interest (the "prime rate") is attached to money the moment it is created...
Let's say the Fed creates ten billion dollars. The Fed gives the USA Government ten billion dollars. In exchange, the USA Government gives the Fed government bonds (a promise to pay back) worth $10,500,000,000 (the original ten billion plus the 5% interest). Now you have money in circulation. Except now you have a problem because there is only ten billion dollars in your entire economy

You don't understand the terms you are using.

First, the prime rate is the interbank lending rate, and not directly related to treasury bonds.

Second, you can't say "there's only 10 billion in the entire economy" as though that means something. Nobody (except for conspiracy nuts) measures an economy by the amount of available paper money! That's insane!

A simple exercise of your limited imagination would have revealed that, one, there's far more "money" than there is cash (about 8 times more if you count time deposits as money), two, the ability to work and to pay is not limited by the quantity of money. Do you have to amass $500,000 at once to pay off your mortgage? No! Wrong!

When your understanding of money is sourced from conspiracy nuts, it's only expected that you will be grossly uninformed.

Re:Patent Pending

[JBHarris]

You sir, have just described every type of regulated currency in existence. It isn't that *our* system is broken or poorly conceived, it is that in order for one person to have something ( home, car, air conditioned beach), someone else must be without the materials that went into creating it. This is where currency comes in. I will trade you these paper notes for your time, materials, etc...Thus I'm in debt to you, but I'm giving you these universal IOUs that you can then use to get a commensurate level of time, materials, etc... from anyone else. I've seen the You-Tube video that describes America's currency system as 'debt-based' as well, and some points are valid. But the idea that the system is "fundamentally-flawed" is incorrect. It is the only way to continuously grow an economy indefinitely. Fixed asset (gold-standard, etc...) systems will eventually become systems in which a select few will possess all the money in the world while the rest grovel at their feet, or revolt and take it back.

Re:Patent Pending

[BlackSabbath]

> It is the only way to continuously grow an economy indefinitely

And this belief is exactly why people continue to fall for these Ponzi schemes time after time, and why we inevitably have busts. Because you CANNOT grow an economy indefinitely.

> Fixed asset (gold-standard, etc...) systems will eventually become systems in which a select few will possess all the money in the world while the rest grovel at their feet, or revolt and take it back.

As opposed to what we have now. Oh, wait...

Re:Patent Pending

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, yes you do.

Do I really need to disclaim every analogy and every simplified explanation so that someone doesn't come along and say "ah-HAH!" and sincerely believe he's really nailed me this time? Because I've tried that and found that the people who want an easy "victory" that badly will ignore any disclaimers or clarifications I give.

Gotchya! You admitted you were wrong!

More seriously, in answer to your question, yes, you do need to add those disclaimers until it bogs down the whole argument to the point the reasonable will no longer bother to read the whole thing.

I recommend writing trite essays on various topics, complete with footnotes and bibliography, about personal pet peeves about 2x a month. It'll make your writing better while giving you a ready made cut and paste answer to trolls, while simultaneously informing those who do not realize a troll is a troll.

Re:Patent Pending

[Anonymous Coward]

Mi punto es que tenemos un sistema descompuesto y, extrañamente,
obtenemos malos resultados de él. Mucho acerca de lo que no profundicé
pero sí impliqué es que creo que mucho de la crisis actual es producto
de ingenierías para empezar o al menos apalancada por el patrón
clásico de Problema-Reacción-Solución que tan frecuentemente se ve en
los gobiernos modernos. No aludiste mi punto central que es que
siempre que tengas un sistema como el Fed[eral], siempre tendrás más
deuda que dólares en circulación y ninguna cantidad de remiendos va a
cambiarlo. El sistema está destinado a colapsarse de una forma o de
otra, por muchas de las mismas razones por las que están destinados a
fracasar los esquemas tipo Ponzi. Los items que mencionas, como el
reventar de la burbuja inmobiliaria, solo impactan cuando este sistema
falla. Nunca sostuve que no puedes tener una depresión sin un sistema
de reservas fraccionado, solo que esta deuda incorporada de la que que
nadie en los medios de corriente central habla nunca (excepto en
términos generales como "deuda nacional") es un factor enorme en la
depresión actual.

También, tengo una ilustracion figurativa en aras de simplificar la
explicación. Sí, había dinero circulando antes de que se estableciera
la Reserva Federal. También tomó rato antes de que la moneda
respaldada por oro y plata se eliminara por que no se puede cambiar
todo un sistema monetario de la noche a la mañana, no es tan tan
simple. Ninguno de estos detalles de implementación tenía mucho que
ver con mi argumento en general así que los omití. Era una omisión
obvia e intencional. ÂQué, con precisión, se supone que logramos
aclarándolo? ÂDeveras tengo que acotar cada analogía y cada explicación
simplificada para que alguien no venga y diga "Âa-já!" y crea
sinceramente que esta vez me atrapó? Por que ya lo he hecho y
encuentro que las personas que tanto así quieren una "victoria" fácil
suelen ignorar las acotaciones y clarificaciones que doy. Bueno, digo
"victoria" pero lo que en realidad parecen querer es ignorarte sin
tener que atender los argumentos presentados. La motivación principal
no es que tengan razones para estar en desacuerdo y quieran ver si se
puede alcanzar algun consenso, más bien que no les gusta lo que
dices. Supongo que llegado a este punto debiera suspirar y, nomás por
ti, agregar algo como "claro, tener como motivación principal que no
te gusta lo que dicen no excluye tener genuinas razones para estar en
desacuerdo". En general, las personas no parecen interesarse mucho en
la verdad; lo que parecen querer es verdad endulzada que los haga
sentir mejor. Este es un fenómeno (una debilidad de caracter, de
hecho) que considero del tipo "no es mi problema" y en general me
niego a tolerarlo.

Asumiendo que realmente eres sincero, tal vez te interese investigar a
Andrew Jackson, sus razones para oponerse al banco central de su
época, y en paritcular lo que dice acerca del control que ese banco
tenía del gobierno y su advertencia para futuras generaciones. La
situación actual es aún otro ejemplo de incapacidad para aprender de
la historia. Honestamente estoy cansado ya de ellos; me pregunto
cuándo finalmente vamos a cometer algunos errores nuevos.

Re:Patent Pending

[HiThere]

OTOH, it's worth remembering that Federal Banks are allowed to lend more money than they have on deposit. Don't remember the details, whether, e.g., it's 1/3 more or 1/4 more, but it *is* magically creating money out of thin air (and statistics...that not all the depositors will ask for their money back at the same time).

It always feels like cheating to me, but really no more so than the Fed printing up as much money as it decides to print.

OTOH, governments ALWAYS debase their currency. The gold standard isn't a solution, Rome was on the gold standard, and they just started decreasing the amount of gold in their official minting. It's essentially an invisible way of raising taxes.

Re:Patent Pending

[DragonWriter]

My point was that you have a broken system and oddly enough, you are getting bad results from this broken system.

And my point is that you completely failed in attempting to identify the part of the system that was broken, in accurately describing the part of the system that you mischaracterized as broken, and in accurately describing the historical context of the part of the system that you mischaracterized as broken.

You did not address my core point which is that so long as you have a system like the Fed, you will always have more debt than dollars in circulation and no amount of tinkering will change that.

I didn't address that point because its a completely beside the, well, point (at least, the point that matters). I did address the important (and wrong) point you made related to that, which is that not only does more debt than money exist, but that that is somehow a problem.

The system is destined to collapse one way or another,

This statement of faith is unsupported by evidence or reason.

for many of the same reasons why Ponzi schemes must eventually fail.

No, this is simply wrong. Ponzi schemes must eventually fail because they require an exponential increase in the number of participants each round of operation, and because each participant has an incentive to maximize the frequency of the rounds; in most, it takes very few rounds before the number of required participants exceeds the population of the planet, failure is guaranteed at some point no later, and often much earlier, than that. The modern banking system, in general, does not have that problem (speculative investment bubbles, which have existed both before and after central banking became the dominant international norm and are independent of it, often exhibit dynamics not unlike a Ponzi scheme, but, again, that's a different issue than central banking.)

The items you mention, like the bursting of the housing bubble, only impact when this system fails.

Bursting of speculative bubbles cause very similar economic failures whether or not there is central banking. They don't influence the inevitable failures that result from central banking, they directly produce failures on their own.

I never claimed that you can't have a depression without a fractional reserve system, only that this built-in debt that no one in the mainstream media ever talks about (except in vague aggregate terms like "national debt") is a huge factor in the current depression.

National debt is not a vague aggregate, its a very specific measure of debt of a specific entity (the federal government), and it has little to do with the inherent debt in the kind of money system we have, since the system does not prevent any individual entity, including a national government, from having zero or negative debt. You seem to either not understand what nation debt is, or be engaging in the fallacy of distribution. And your broader point remains wrong, no matter how many times you repeat it.

Generally, people don't seem very interested in truth; what they seem to want is palatable truth that makes them feel better.

That would explain your conveniently simple, but both economically and historically ignorant description of the roots of our problem.

This is one of those things (a character weakness, actually) that I consider to be "not my problem" and I generally refuse to accommodate it.

It might be better for you if you would consider it "your problem", and would try to refuse to indulge in it.

Assuming you are sincerely interested in this, you may find it interesting to research Andrew Jackson, his stated reasons for opposing the central bank of his time, and in particula

They building it in a day?

[trancemission]

Dubai Is Building a Refrigerated Beach on Friday December 19 The date in the title annoys me...

Re:They building it in a day?

[trancemission]

I also annoy myself by:

Not reading the drop down [html formatted] and not using the preview button.

Damn pesky kids and their fancy html.....

Removed the date now by switching to 'classic'

Futurama

[Anonymous Coward]

Documentary Narrator: Fortunately, our handsomest politicians came up with a cheap, last minute way to combat global warming. Ever since 2063, we simply drop a giant ice cube into the ocean now and again.

Suzie: Just like daddy puts in his drink every morning. Then he gets mad.

Documentary Narrator: Of course, because the greenhouse gasses are still building up, it takes more and more ice each time, thus solving the problem once and for all.

Suzie: But...

Documentary Narrator: Once and for all!

Idle this shit

[mathx314]

I'm not normally the one to complain about this, but seriously, it's getting ridiculous. I have no problem with Idle being its own separate entity that I can ignore or follow as I choose, but I do have a problem with Idle stories leaking into Main. A story about a refrigerated beach with an Idle-style picture and a stupid joke at the end is not News for Nerds or Stuff that Matters.

Re:Idle this shit

[SydShamino]

Are you implying that this audience isn't interested in domes cities and artificial living environments??

Read some science fiction man! I grew up on this stuff.

Re:Idle this shit

[Brigadier]

not all nerds collect hard drive platters for a living .... I have an architectural background and think it quite interesting when fringe type ideas make it unto slashdot. Nerd =! Computers there are many other types of Tech out there besides C++

Re:Idle this shit

[Anonymous Coward]

Idle won't go away, and it won't become less important. The owners of Slashdot are "aggressively pursuing [their] plans" for the site, and a few dissatisfied comments won't override that; all that will matter are page views and ad dollars.

Re:Idle this shit

[owlstead]

I'm sorry, but if this is true, this is definitely something to get aroused over. How can we expect any leading entity to take global warming and the (upcoming, in 30 years time) oil crises a priority unless we make it one. These idiots are ruining the world on their friggin' Alice in Wonderland trip. And it is not over there. In the Netherlands, there was this idea to put down a skating round *outside*. I don't know how much electricity would go into that but it must be horrible.

How can you expect a third world country to take the energy crisis seriously if we nutcases keep spending more and more energy on more and more idiotic ventures? All just to please the ultra-rich? In 30 years, when life as we know it goes down the drain, can we please put these idiots against the wall and shoot them? It won't solve anything, but it would at least put things right again, morally speaking.

Re:Idle this shit

[Anonymous Coward]

A story about an engineering marvel isn't News for Nerds?

You sir, are not a nerd, and you disgrace the rest of us by claiming to be one.

Re:Idle this shit

[jmerlin]

You must be new here...

Re:Idle this shit

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Make a conscious choice to read a story title that doesn't interest you
2. Make a conscious choice to read a story summary that doesn't interest you
3. ??????
4. Whine about a story that doesn't interest you

Seriously... I skim over about half the stories on the site, and I consider a site where I'm enthusiastic about 50% of the stories to be outstanding.

Re:Idle this shit

[Anonymous Coward]

For me this is about where all that Oil money is going, and this is only the tip of the iceberg.

Re:Idle this shit

[Anonymous Coward]

"Get a sense of perspective."

A kneejerk defense of a theme park for the richest 1% of the world is not a reasonable perspective.

"I'll bet that catastrophic global warming will go the way of acid rain, global cooling, killer bees, the population bomb and the ozone hole in terms of being an armageddon that the environmentalists daydream about that simply never happens. It's just another fad"

Oh, you're a dedicated science denialist, that makes much more sense. Enjoy your talk radio, creationism and Sarah Palin for prez.

Re:Idle this shit

[Anonymous Coward]

sorry to be picky, but it's != (! is not)

Re:Idle this shit

[CR0]

first, Dubai doesn't have that much oil. Not nearly as much as those crazy Canadians.

second, if the Netherlands wants a skating surface (I'll assume you meant rink) outside, it wouldn't take any electricity, unless they used electricity to clean the snow and smooth the surface. The Netherlands is quite far north you know. More north than all of the Great Lakes. (assuming a seasonal rink, which is only logical)

third, if the builders in Dubai pumped water through those pipes and then used that same water for things like showers or laundry (ie. things that _need_ hot water) you could have a net reduction in energy use.

In summary, don't panic, stop hating the places you don't know, don't panic.

--
Boring conference call? Try Fable Island

Re:Idle this shit

[FugitiveMind]

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details/slashdot.org

I don't think their plans are working that well...

Re:Idle this shit

[Golddess]

Perhaps it was intentional, y'know? Further proving how much they aren't the computer-type nerd.

Re:Idle this shit

[Anonymous Coward]

You're confused: GP was saying that Computers are not equal to Nerd, rather than Nerd are not equal to Computers.

Re:Idle this shit

[bky1701]

Actually, he was saying Nerd equals NOT (() Computers ()); everyone knows that!

Re:Idle this shit

[Anonymous Coward]

Nerd =! Computers there are many other types of Tech out there besides C++

I can tell you're not into C++... Nerd =! Computers is very different from Nerd != Computers

Re:Idle this shit

[owlnation]

I don't think their plans are working that well...

Interesting. A 6 month slide, about the same time as Idle has been up and running. Coincidence? Probably not.

Unless something is done soon about samzenpus' inability to post a professional article I'm pretty much done. No-one is stopping there being an Idle if that's what people want. All we ask is -- keep it segregated. There is plenty room on the main page for humor too, it just needs to be presented in a more skilled way.

I'm inclined to agree with some of the posters here, in that this article should be mainpageworthy -- it's just that samzenpus has screwed it up and dumbed it down in his usual way. This is easy to fix. Either fire him, or teach him to be more professional, or banish him permanently to Idle.

Re:Idle this shit

[owlstead]

"second, if the Netherlands wants a skating surface (I'll assume you meant rink) outside, it wouldn't take any electricity, unless they used electricity to clean the snow and smooth the surface. The Netherlands is quite far north you know. More north than all of the Great Lakes. (assuming a seasonal rink, which is only logical)"

Jezus, telling me what weather we are having, you cannot get much more stupid than that. Yes, we are well North, but winds are normally from the south west. And we are living in a soft sea climate.

The last time we had a good winter was years and years ago. Most skating groups have already stopped. Yes, we're rather far north, so this says a lot. We've had some wet snow this year, but Christmas is likely to have a 10 degree Celsius rating during the day.

But if you think that getting water hot in Dubai is a problem, well, I'm already arguing with a total and complete twat, aren't I? Think desalination plant. Check your brain and your sources before arguing.

Re:Idle this shit

[Anonymous Coward]

No, he was assigning nerd to be the value of not Computers.

Re:Idle this shit

[petermgreen]

The Netherlands is quite far north you know. More north than all of the Great Lakes.
Maybe so but the gulf stream means the area arround britan and it's neighbours is a lot warmer than most other places of similar lattitude. The netherlands also tends to be pretty low lying.

I live in manchester in the UK which is probbablly a bit north of the northernmost point of the netherlands and based on the weather rounf here I very much doubt there is any time of year they could reliablly run an ice rink without artificial cooling.

Re:Idle this shit

[Anonymous Coward]

There are? I though God does assembler.

Re:Idle this shit

[NeutronCowboy]

Somehow, I don't think that measurement is very accurate.

1) It measures percent of people on the internet reading slashdot. I don't know about you, but I'd argue that the number of people who get on the internet who don't care about slashdot grows faster than the number of those who do.
2) There's a massive spike right before the decline. I don't recall anything happening then that would correlate with a 75% drop in traffic.
3) Year over year, traffic has supposedly dropped by a factor of 10. Somehow, I don't buy that.

Re:Idle this shit

[Anonymous Coward]

just shut the fuck up and login ...

you have control over what you see and what you dont .. JUST FUCKING SET YOUR SETTINGS YOU DIMWITTED FUCKTARD

Re:Idle this shit

[pipingguy]

Are you implying that this audience isn't interested in domes cities and artificial living environments??

Starlost: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0069638/

"Writer Harlan Ellison, unhappy with changes made to his concept for the show, had his credit changed to the pseudonym "Cordwainer Bird.""

Re:Idle this shit

[pipingguy]

I have an architectural background

So how's BIM implementation going so far? Architects seem to hate it (whatever "it" is). In the process plant world, 3D is going fairly well, but that discipline tends to be more data-centric and complicated than architecture. Architecture is more art than engineering so it's less interested in selling it's soul to the infernal machine.

Re:Idle this shit

[Anonymous Coward]

Could you please tell me exactly how a news piece on a novel engineering application is not news for nerds?

Please, go back to your basement and keep pretending that tech is nothing more than computer software and hardware. And board games.

Re:Idle this shit

[Gordonjcp]

third, if the builders in Dubai pumped water through those pipes and then used that same water for things like showers or laundry (ie. things that _need_ hot water) you could have a net reduction in energy use.

Nobody's actually mentioned this as far as I can see, but cooling a beach might not use that much energy. You're not generating more heat, you're just moving it from place to place. Now heat pumps can be very very efficient, with quite a high work factor (the amount of heat energy moved by a given amount of energy input). Modern refridgerators are horribly inefficient, with a work factor of around 4 - that is, for 1kWh of energy driving the motor, you move 4kWh of energy from inside the fridge to the outside.

Now - what exactly is this, but a bloody great big Ground Source Heat Pump, something the environmentalists are currently recommending for heating houses?

Re:Idle this shit

[smoker2]

The top of Scotland is further north than Denmark, parts of Sweden and Norway, but there are no major glaciers. North is not the only factor. Stuttgart is a lot further south than Manchester but they have deep snow regularly. The North Sea only gets minor warming from the gulf stream, most of the effect is on the west of the UK and Eire.

Re:Idle this shit

[ConceptJunkie]

A kneejerk defense of a theme park for the richest 1% of the world is not a reasonable perspective.

I never said anything about the beach thing. Perhaps your reading comprehension needs some work.

Oh, you're a dedicated science denialist, that makes much more sense

Oh, so you're saying all the data showing a cooling trend in the last decade is wrong? And all the politically and financially motivated "findings" are all correct? Or did the killer bees really sweep the county and reduce cows to mere skeletons? Or maybe the new Ice Age occurred and I missed it? Or perhaps I missed the pandemic of skin cancer caused by the ozone hole? Last I checked the Earth's atmosphere was something shy of 6 quadrillion tons. Assuming we could affect something that huge over a century and a half so radically, what idiot thinks we could possibly fix it in 10 years (or die according to Envirofraud Al Gore) without doing some serious Maui Wowie?

If you know so much about science, tell me where I'm wrong.

A better idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a simpler and less ridiculous way to cool the sand: Instead of running conventional refrigerant through the pipes, with all the associated needless consumption, run seawater. After all, it's not like you don't have a whole ocean full of it right there.

Hell, even if you have to run the intake pipes out half a kilometer into the ocean to get deep and cool enough water, it'll be cheaper in the long run. And more energy efficient by any measure.

The laws of thermodynamics are still on the books

[tetromino]

I believe I've just thought of a way we could solve this whole global warming thing I've been hearing about.

You mean, power the giant beach refrigerator by attaching a generator to the spinning corpse of old Sadi Carnot?

Re:The laws of thermodynamics are still on the boo

[TiberSeptm]

Entropy's a bitch, but I'll be damned if she isn't a faithful one.

I use my air conditioner in the summer

[Anonymous Coward]

I suck too.

Re:I use my air conditioner in the summer

[Joce640k]

...and there's definitely no heated football fields in the "developed" world, right?

No thanks...

[glavenoid]

No booze on the beach. Pass. No half-nekkid chicks. Pass. I'll save my beach-going for a land that loves sin...

Re:No thanks...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but if Dubai keeps building cool shit like this, it won't be long until we get a new Dubai-themed Vegas hotel with miniature versions of everything they dream up in the actual Dubai. I'm sure making people feel like oil sheiks would also work as a "math-challenged people come give us your money" theme as well.

So this is less an advertisement for you than it is a preview of what you can expect to see in the places you're more interested in.

Why bother going?

[photonic]

Half of me says these guys need a reality check, the other half wants to go there.

Why bother going to Dubai anyhow? It is too hot, they only have sand and some fake islands that no-one wants to buy and no culture (unless you are into modern, megalomaniac architecture). And in terms of population, there are just overwhelmingly rich locals, western expats designing toy projects for said locals and Indian immigrants actually building those toy projects. If you are choosing a holiday destination, I could not thing of anything less interesting.

Re:Why bother going?

[istartedi]

shhhh. You'll pop their bubble. Ooops. Too late.

Re:Why bother going?

[Rycross]

Agreed. Without an interesting local culture to go along with it, playing on the beach tends to turn into a snooze-fest real fast. I prefer visiting areas with rich history.

Re:Why bother going?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's kind of cool that they've got the tallest building in the world right there. Burj Dubai is already over 700 meters tall.

Re:Why bother going?

[mrsquid0]

The irony factor alone would make spending a day or two in Dubai an interesting experience. But then I would want a real beach, with real poisonous octopuses swimming just beyond the surf.

Re:Why bother going?

[z-j-y]

It is a massive conspiracy by Jewish architects.

Re:Why bother going?

[nbert]

I totally agree. Thinking of it a city on the south pole could offer just as much attraction as Dubai (provided with the same wealth). Luxury hotels are all the same around the globe, so why stay in one which is located in a city which features an uncomfortable environment and very few non-artificial points of interest.

I could be wrong in believing that the hype around Dubai will vanish in the near future. Las Vegas for example is still doing well ;)

It is understandable that the Emirate of Dubai wants to diversify its economy. In the long run they will be better off with oil-related industries like logistics and especially shipping and aviation. After all they have the only natural harbor in the Persian Gulf area and the location is perfect for an intercontinental hub. And when oil becomes scarce Dubai might be one of the few still being able to fuel all these planes and ships...

Re:Why bother going?

[Jherek Carnelian]

Half of me says these guys need a reality check, the other half wants to go there.

Why bother going to Dubai anyhow? It is too hot, they only have sand and some fake islands

Plus, they have a really bad attitude about the most fun thing to do on a beach in the middle of the night.

Re:Why bother going?

[Kagura]

Good morning, gentlemen. This is a twelve-story block combining classical neo-Georgian features with the efficiency of modern techniques. The tenants arrive in the entrance hall here, and are carried along the corridor on a conveyor belt in extreme comfort and past murals depicting Mediterranean scenes, towards the rotating knives. The last twenty feet of the corridor are heavily soundproofed. The blood pours down these chutes and the mangled flesh slurps into these... Hmm?

Re:Why bother going?

[twistah]

And, don't forget, Dubai is in the UAE and largely follows their moral standards. Laws are strictly enforced and they do not look the other way for tourists. There are multiple reports of people being arrested or detained for lengthy periods of time. A British couple was put in jail for allegedly having sex on the beach. And another person was imprisoned because a mass-spec machine in the airport detected a microscopic speck of marijuana on his shoe -- the kind you can pick up walking through the airport, or anywhere really. Personally, that does not describe a place I would like to go to relax.

Re:Why bother going?

[Grishnakh]

You may prefer that, but many people just want to sit on the beach for their vacation. Of course, the problem there is that beaches aren't exactly a rare commodity. Here in the USA, only an idiot would go to Dubai for the beaches, since we have plenty of our own, plus lots of nice Caribbean islands nearby to visit. In Europe, there's plenty of beaches in Spain, France, Italy, etc.

Honestly, I don't know who, other than Arabs from neighboring countries, would go to Dubai for the beaches. I think it's just a big fad really.

Re:Why bother going?

[the_womble]

They might be better off doing what the Maldives wants to and just buying a new place to live when the oil runs out. With the amount of money they have, they stand a better chance.

The climate there is horrible. The location is excellent for transport, but other than that there is nothing to stay for once the oil runs out.

Re:Why bother going?

[majid_aldo]

let me see you get away with that in a western country.

Re:Why bother going?

[fermion]

Who in their right mind would go to this right wing country full of religious fundamentalist, well other than like minded religious fundamentalists that are scare of alcohol and the opposite sex.

In the past year they have arrested tourist for having a bit of cannabis on the shoe. They apparently also reserve the right to arrest people for carrying poppy seeds.. You can also apparently get four years for codeine, and other drugs one might have for urgent a valid medical needs.

And lets not forget what happens to you, if you, god forbid, want to play a bit of hanky panky on the beach. For that you might not ever get out of the country.

Obviously they built this gimmick to attract the type of people who like to say they have gone to beach, but do not do any of the things that healthy people tend to do at the beach. To be fair it their country, and they have a right to set the rules, and a visitor one must abide by the rules, but golly, I don't see how refrigerated sand can compensate for the lack of touching privileges.

Re:Why bother going?

[TuaAmin13]

You forgot about the pirates. Where else would you go to see a real life pirate other than anywhere else in the world.

Re:Why bother going?

[JoeMerchant]

Indoor skiing!!! yeah, it is a pretty drab sounding place, unless you're out to marry a princess.

Re:Why bother going?

[AbRASiON]

For all 'intensive' purposes? Was this a joke and I missed it? Should I be laughing with you or at you?

Re:Why bother going?

[bhiestand]

Half of me says these guys need a reality check, the other half wants to go there.

Why bother going to Dubai anyhow? It is too hot, they only have sand and some fake islands that no-one wants to buy and no culture (unless you are into modern, megalomaniac architecture).

And refrigerated beaches...

Re:Why bother going?

[Anonymous Coward]

hahahaha losers! you just don't get it do you? i live in Dubai and it's an amazing place, yes i'd have to agree with you on the over population of the indians and the fact that these projects are not really worth it, but what about the fact that there may be other things than these? good things! i mean for god's sake you don't want to go to Dubai because of these stupid little things? and what's with the scorching hot sand stuff? you're just saying that you're weak and can't take a hot challenge. and what's with the booze and naked woman thing? daaamn dude you must be a very screwed up person if that's all you care about.

Re:Why bother going?

[Anonymous Coward]

Go get yourself some geography lessons, your mixing up the Red Sea (Egypt, Somalia, Yemen et al.) and the Persian Gulf (Iraq, Iran and United Arab Emirates). The pirates that are in the news these days are mostly from Somalia.

Re:Why bother going?

[Ilgaz]

You can use Dubai as a benchmark to see how sold out the media and some governments are. Having properties, financial interest and huge advertising income from there, you will never hear them talk about lack of democracy, human rights etc.

UAE can do anything they want, even build a total fantasy crap which will do gigantic harm to the nature and natural life. They would buy couple of advertising minutes from media, offer couple of homes to high level execs, hire couple of Hollywood actors/ singers to present them and problem is solved.

Re:Why bother going?

[GamerCowboy]

I live in Dubai. I've lived here for many years and have seen it slowly become what it is now. It went from being a rather nice place to live to being one that I want to leave as soon as possible (still working on that). People like the poster above are one of the main reasons for my wanting to leave.

Re:Why bother going?

[TempeTerra]

Whoa, don't loose you're cool dude!

Re:Why bother going?

[Anonymous Coward]

And even if sampling the culture isn't the goal of going to the beach, there are other reasons that aren't going to work so well in Dubai. The reason why Rio De Janiero, French Rivieria, Acapulco, misc. Australian beaches, misc. U.S. beaches, etc. attract visitors has nothing to do with the temperature of the sand.

So unless Dubai has enough money to change things about the region's muslim culture to a more secular one, they're going to be lacking a major reason for beachgoing. (Imagine going to a beach where Adriana Lima, Heidi Klum, and Natalie Portman are going to appear. Now imagine that they're covered up in burqas and kept on a separate section cordoned off from the men by a curtain. Not as fun, is it?)

As for the other topic being brought up about erosion, I'd think it'd be a minor one. From past experience in the Navy, Persian Gulf water is likely to be glassy calm as North Sea is to be rough enough to make almost anyone puke. There might be some tidal erosion, but the wind generated rip currents in the smallest of the Great Lakes would present more technical erosion issues than what U.A.E. would ever have to deal with.

Re:Why bother going?

[Jherek Carnelian]

let me see you get away with that in a western country.

In the dark, on the beach, after midnight?
Done it many times, but I sure won't invite you to watch.

Has this solution been considered?

[Anonymous Coward]

Run massive copper pipes into the ocean, and let it cool it from scorching to walk-able.

Re:Has this solution been considered?

[Joce640k]

No engineer would ever think of that - the water is miles away!

An outdoor Alpine ski mountain would be cooler

[gelfling]

And if they could make it levitate that would be awesome. I hope they spend their next 100 billion dollars on that one.

Re:An outdoor Alpine ski mountain would be cooler

[Anonymous Coward]

It's happening in Dallas, Texas. Ski mountain with fake snow and everything.

http://www.bearfireresort.com/

Last I heard the plan was on hold due to litigation over land ownership, but it's only a matter of time.

Sounds like just the place...

[RDW]

...to relax after a hard day on the ski slopes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/4491210.stm

http://www.skidubai.com/

sand blasting?

[Sir_Lewk]

Am I the only one that thinks mixing sand with giant blowers may be a bad idea?

solve this whole global warming thing

[Threni]

> I believe I've just thought of a way we could solve this whole global warming thing I've been hearing about.

By not wasting energy unnecessarily ?

Re:solve this whole global warming thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Energy is not wasted. It just transfers from one state to another.

Re:solve this whole global warming thing

[z-j-y]

but we prefer it in one state than the other

Reality check? Sure... here it comes...

[Anonymous Coward]

Some countries spend money they have on refrigerated beaches.

Some countries spend money they don't have on illegal wars.

Every little bit of solar helps...

[maxfresh]

What they are proposing is just to extract the solar thermal energy from the beach sand. The solar energy doesn't have to be wasted. If they were to take the solar heat laden coolant, and pass it through a heat exchanger, and into a Stirling engine, they could use it to generate electricity to power desalination equipment, for example. Using the cooler ocean water as the heat sink wouldn't produce very high efficiency, but it would still be a net gain. It wouldn't cost very much more than just throwing the heat away. They could get coolor sand, and generate solar power at the same time. Just a thought...

Re:Every little bit of solar helps...

[4D6963]

Which would merely marginally reduce the costs... For some reason I have a feeling that these guys can afford their current plan as it is.

Re:Every little bit of solar helps...

[Kagura]

If they were to take the solar heat laden coolant, and pass it through a heat exchanger, and into a Stirling engine, they could use it to generate electricity to power desalination equipment

Are you suggesting that coolants migrate?

Re:Every little bit of solar helps...

[JoeMerchant]

If the ocean water is cooler and available, it would be more efficient to just circulate it under the sand... I suspect they're using (electric powered) heat pumps at some point in the process. Oil effectively costs them less than drinkable water there, so energy efficiency is a laughable concept in their economy.

Re:The laws of thermodynamics are still on the boo

[mrsquid0]

It's like when Homer Simpson tried to beat the heat by pitching a tent in front of an open refrigerator door.

Oblig.

[Anonymous Cowpat]

Weebl & Bob

Re:Oblig.

[CynicalTyler]

That could have just been the last 10 seconds where they show the massive air conditioner and sing "Pipe heat to the moon" without losing any jokes.

Jehad

[TangoCharlie]

This ridiculous venture is exactly what is wrong with the world. If Osama Bin Laden want to strike
at the heart of what is wrong with the "west", Dubai is the place he should start. Seriously,
have these people not heard of global warming?
Even if they power this thing with solar energy,
it's still a massive waste... think of all the other things that could be done with that energy.
Jesus!

Stupid, stupid

[dasunst3r]

This idea is as stupid as the indoor skiing slope. Not only is it a waste of energy, but it will NEVER capture the true feeling of being on a beach, especially if you forget your sandals. I hope the footwear industry lobbies long and hard to block the refrigeration of beaches -- there's some revenue to be had in those overpriced sandals one could buy near the beach.

Re:Stupid, stupid

[Kagura]

For what it's worth, I hate walking on fucking hot sand. It hurts.

Re:Stupid, stupid

[WormholeFiend]

For what it's worth, I hate walking on fucking hot sand. It hurts.

You should try one of the many white sand beaches of Cuba. They naturally don't get hot from the Sun.

As a bonus, vacations there are quite cheap, and the aged rum is so smooth, it's like drinking cognac.

The resorts' food is pretty average, though, but everything else makes up for it.

(Disclaimer: Maybe there's other such white sand beaches in the Caribbean, but Cuba's are the only ones I've visited)

Re:Stupid, stupid

[Hal_Porter]

Cheap holidays in Stalinist Misery!

Re:Stupid, stupid

[rts008]

Having never been to Cuba, I will take your word for the Cuban Experience; it is similar enough to my visit to Puerto Rico, that you could substitute Puerto Rico for Cuba in your post, and it would be real close (except the mediocre food!) to my experience!.

I thoroughly enjoyed the Caribbean, and hope to revisit soon.

Thanks for the 'heads up' about Cuba, I may try that next. (Besides, I really enjoy a good cigar with either good brandy, or that marvelous, smooth, and tasty aged rum!)

My visit to Puerto Rico was limited to a 5 star resort in San Juan for 5 days, but the beach 20m from the deck of the hotel room looked just like this, but with a few coconut palms scattered around. Every afternoon around 3-4 P.M. (local), it would rain for about an hour or hour and a half(just enough to cool things down), then be nice.

"The island is also popularly known as La Isla del Encanto, which translated means "The Island of Enchantment.""(from the above linked wiki on PR)
Yes, it is easy to see where they came up with this, in my VERY limited experience.

ice caps

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't they just apply this technology to the ice caps to slow their melting?!!!

Easier solution

[OrangeTide]

Go to Bermuda for your next vacation, a place where the sand isn't scorching hot.

It's about location, location, location. And Dubai isn't the location.

Re:Easier solution

[tripmine]

But that's why these guys keep building cool stuff like this all the time. If it isn't the location, they'll MAKE IT be the location. Remember, before Disney World, south Orlando was literally a swamp.

Re:Easier solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you serious?

Bermuda has some nice beaches but it is quite possibly -the- most boring place in the world.

Once you've done the dolphins, so to speak, and once you've done Hamilton, it's - ovah. 2 days?

I recommend it if you need to chill, big time ... or unless you find insurance companies interesting. *yawn*

The thing about Dubai is, yes, it's a playground ... like Las Vegas ... interesting for those who want some stimulation ... the morality of such places is another story.

A waist of money

[area51underground]

So this is where all that money went that came out of our pockets to pay for fuel.. Brought a country's economy to it's knees so you can air condition a beach. Yet you already complain that your economy is not doing well. Good to see your spending it wisely..

Re:A waist of money

[majid_aldo]

Dubai's income doesn't rely on oil. actually they're almost out of oil. also, less than 15% of US imports of oil are from the middle east.

Awesome

[InlawBiker]

Somebody needed to deflect attention from America's excesses and take the spotlight for needless waste and overspending. Go Dubai!

Re:Awesome

[Livius]

It must be hard to find ways spend the kind of money that Dubai has, but it would be nice if just a little bit of it could be put towards something constructive, like a world-class university (something the Arab-speaking world could actually use).

Evaporative cooling?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who says they are not using evaporative cooling in a cooling tower nearby, or just dumping the heat from the hot sand into cooler water? The article gives no technical details, and the reporter might not understand the difference.

Steal gas

[Vegeta99]

Fuck, time to start stealing gasoline again...

Shut up gold standard nuts

[Nicolas MONNET]

The world is in a global depression because everybody's listened to Milton Friedman (Pinochet's best buddy), and it turns out the creep was just completely bonkers; even 'bubbles' Greenspan admits it.
Turns out that traders are as useless as they seem to be, that the whole finance system is just a collection of Ponzi schemes.
This has'nt got much to do with central banking, because here those banks that failed (Lehman and friends) were creating money (borderline illegally), through what the bozos called "leveraging."

GOOD FOR THEM!!!!!.....

[IHC Navistar]

""Dubai is like a bubble world where the things that are worrying the rest of the world, like climate change, are simply ignored so that people can continue their destructive lifestyles," she said. "

-Good for them. Here in The People's Republik Of Kalifornia, people's lifestyles are restricted by people who think they should be able to force people to live the way environmentalists want, and be forced to care about issues that people don't want to care about.

Funny how those hypocrites in Berzerkely ("Berkeley") talk about freedom, yet create laws and restrictions to force those of us who don't share their environmental or political agenda to conform to their beliefs.

+1 Insightful

[Anonymous Coward]

*LOL* Flaimbat?! No...! Someone please mod this up. :)

Pipes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can we access the Internet using the pipes?
Besides, can't these people afford to go to decent beaches that don't need pipes?

What's coming next?

[blake182]

Indoor ski slope... Refrigerated beach... "I'm crazy Dubai -- I'm gonna build me a ZERO GRAVITY WATERPARK! Woo! I'm crazy!"

Re:What's coming next?

[mosb1000]

That would be freaking awesome.

Firefox 3 & IE7 anyone

[bruce_the_loon]

16 June 2008, correlates with the spike in traffic on the year graph.

Slow dropoff as FF3 and IE7 start getting adopted with better ad blocking.

How does Alexa track traffic, if ABP or other security mechanisms block the cookies/1px gif or other tracking mechanisms, it might be a artificial dropoff.

And now..

[bruce_the_loon]

... it's a dump.

This project has actually been put on hold

[Paktu]

I live in Dubai. I read one of the local newspapers here this morning just before I checked Slashdot, and it turns out the air-conditioned beach has been put on hold until they find a way to make it more "environmentally friendly".

Re:This project has actually been put on hold

[webreaper]

until they find a way to make it more environmentally friendly

Surely the simplest way to make it environmentally friendly is to use solar energy to power it?

I don't know "ideas" are that stupid ...

[freaker_TuC]

... else these wouldn't be ideas...

They'd benefit atleast a minority of the population .. a waste of money and environmental space? definitely!

It sure gives an entire different definition of a living-in-the-dome experience, for tourists.. maybe?

Must be Kidding

[Anonymous Coward]

Dubai is broke, buildings half completed. Workers are leaving.

ITs a load of Bull

.sig

[Morosoph]

God is dead -- Nietzsche
Nietzsche is dead -- God
Zombie Nietzsche lives! -- Zombie Nietzsche

A great variant, I have to say, on "Some are born posthumously", Ecce Homo.

This could be totally green

[epukinsk]

I wonder if you could design this in a way that didn't use any energy (post construction)... using ocean water (which is ostensibly cooler than the sand) and using the force of the waves, or tidal pressure to move it through the pipes.

Perhaps most simply, couldn't you fill an underground tank during high tide, and then during low tide just let the cool water leak slowly through the pipes, and then out into the ocean?

Patent!!

What are they doing with the heat?

[Anonymous Coward]

If this was remarketed as an energy saving drive with solar heating using a heat pump mechanism to get the sun's energy to do useful work then the response would be a lot more positive.

If you're going to pump heat away from somewhere and you want to use the heat, then pumping it away from somewhere you want to be cooler is good.

If they use the heat for useful work then it would be great! If all they do is blow it out into the atmosphere through big air-con units then that would be a waste.

Global warming hoax

[Anonymous Coward]

"I believe I've just thought of a way we could solve this whole global warming thing I've been hearing about. "

You mean the global hoax that more and more people, including scientists and high-profile meteorologists, are no longer afraid to speak out against? You mean the hoax that the U.N. is trying to foist on the globe so that they can try to grab control of global energy production, and by extension, global power? Fuck you, samzenpussy.

Marketing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Marketing, in fact, is probably the thing they are better at than anything else.

I have to disagree. If the "terrorists" were so good at marketing then why hasn't most of the world condemned the US for invading souverein countries based on nothing more but lies and assumptions? Wouldn't you agree that the underdog is usually always favored (in movies for example) than the bigger and badder opponents?

This has nothing to do with marketing at all, this is all a direct result from the narrow minded approach of the US to call whatever resistance they meet "terrorists". People in Iraq who blow up soldiers because they have blown up their houses? "Terrorists". Fighting Muslim groups in India which have been fighting and quaralling for years now, long before 9/11? "Terrorists". The Kurds who have been fighting for their own nation for years and have been fought by both Saddam as wel as Turkey and many other surrounding countries? Prior to 9/11 Turkey was fighting dissidents. But ever since Iraq was invaded they suddenly started fighting "Terrorists".

So suppose something will happen in Dubai; how easy it is to blame it all on "terrorists" even though these may simple be the original residents of the place who are getting fed up. But no; we'll blame "terrorists" so the blind will immediatly link this with groups as Al Quada, Hamas, and so on without any furhter explenation needed.

So, be carefull with who or what you call terrorists.. It may be made to serve a complete different purpose.

Re:Marketing?

[gujo-odori]

What I mean by good at marketing is their ability to continue to recruit people. They have a rather, um, creative world view, which has both grown out of and in turn heavily influenced the, um, creative world view held in much of the Islamic world. For example, the perception that Islam is persecuted when Muslims are the ones pushing religious persecution all over the globe, even against other sects of Islam, and practicing conversion by the sword (well, Kalazhnikov these days). You'd think they could learn from the past mistakes of Buddhism and Christianity, but I guess not. Of course, unlike Buddhism and Christianity, the Koran explicitly condones (and IMO outright promotes) conversion by the sword, and even Mohammed himself allowed the practice. He also allowed robbing non-Muslims and pretty much "doing unto others" as long as they weren't Muslims. Robbery of caravans going to Mecca is how his followers supported themselves in the days when Mecca was pagan and they were seeking to conquer it and convert it by force, something they eventually succeeded in doing.

So yeah, they're very good at marketing. The reason most countries don't condemn us for knocking off a dictator who needed to be knocked off is because they know he had it coming, and they know that while everyone's belief (bolstered by Hussein's actions) that he had WMDs turned out to be wrong (note that wrong is not the same as a lie, and lest you want to pin it all on Bush, that the intelligence handed down on that is the same intelligence the Clinton administration had and they also were certain he had WMDs; the only difference is Clinton didn't do anything about it. But the world is still a better place with Hussein out of it), Hussein was certainly trying to get them, and he was certainly encouraging and even financing terrorism against Israel through paying bounties to the families of suicide bombers.

Waste of time

[TooLazyToLogon]

They are wasting their time with a refrigerated beach.They should be working on hot snow.

Honestly....

[ryzvonusef]

WHAT THE ****? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_pakistan Get your head out of your *** and realise this stinking fact, terrorist care for NOTHING and I mean nothing for silly things like PR. They have killed thousands in my country, heck in my own city Rawalpindi even, and they care ZILCH who their victim is, infact they are dead-sure the persons will most likely will be an innocent muslim.

How to justify the spend..

[Anonymous Coward]

"The scheme is likely to infuriate environmentalists..."

We need no more recommendation than this to start building refrigerators for all the world's beaches.....

OOPS! Should have used preview...

[ryzvonusef]

I typed [i]nothing[i] (forgot the slash, then again, I am not a programmer, I am doing CA)

global warming vs. local cooling

[cpghost]

have these people not heard of global warming?

That's why they try to apply local cooling to their beach.

Terrorists like Dubai as well...

[tjstork]

I've talked to a lot of people from the middle east and the terrorists like Dubai too. Let's not forget that before Atta and his buddies knocked down the WTC, they took a trip to Vegas and partied it up a bit. Every culture likes a party and the middle east is no exception.

To make matters even more interesting, Dubai is the Switzerland of the middle east and wants to be the next Switzerland of the world. In Dubai, secrecy of transactions is becoming the norm, there's no transparency and very little regulation. So yeah, a terrorist might hate westerners in Dubai, but he's not going to screw with it as Dubai is where he gets paid.

Dubai is a great tourist destination.

[Anonymous Coward]

Americans naturally don't think of Dubai as a vacation destination, so it's typically hard for them to understand the excesses Dubai has provided to attract vacationers. I too had my doubts about Dubai; I was inclined to believe that nowhere in the Middle East was worth visiting due to the cultural peculiarities of the region. Dubai, however, surprised me completely. Many don't know this, but Dubai features the world's only 7-Star Hotel, the largest building in the world, an indoor skiing run, the palm-tree island, the world island, and over 6 malls that would put American style ones to shame.

My fear was that the rules of the country would be too restrictive and would detract visitors. To my surprise, the exact opposite was true. Sure, you aren't allowed to have sex on the beach...but come on, where else can you reasonably expect to get away with that!? Also, you will find an interesting group of expatriates living there. There's an area called "Irish Village" with a bunch of quaint little pubs and hospitable Europeans.

My only real complaint about Dubai is that their culture does impede tourism during Ramadan (September); eating and drinking are not allowed during daylight hours. There are some locations that will cater to non-Muslim customers, but it generally becomes quite uncomfortable if you have been moving around for hours with nothing to eat.

Wasn't this a recent episode of Stargate Atlantis?

[Megajim]

I mean, what happens if the beach system goes out of control and creates some sort of super-cooling vortex? Would they cancel Dubai just like they canceled SGA?

I was just there

[nickull]

and I can see why this would be needed. It was 26 in the winter. I would however worry about the effect of some kid digging into a freon tube with a shovel or a leak. Nevertheless, it would make far more sense to use the natural deep water to pipe up onto the sub-beach level to act as a heat-exchanger. Duane Nickull http://technoracle.blogspot.com

Already have one...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm in Seattle - we have miles of refrigerated beaches right now...

I don't see the attraction :-)
   

Stargate

[Barryke]

I believe I've just thought of a way we could solve this whole global warming thing I've been hearing about.

Funneling earths heat thru a "Malcolm Tunney matter bridge" is flawd, forget it. As seen on TV weeks ago.