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Space Is Just a Little Bit Closer Than Expected
SpuriousLogic points out a BBC story which begins "The upper reaches of Earth's atmosphere are much lower than expected, a US Air Force satellite has found. Currently, the ionosphere — a layer of charged particles that envelopes the planet — is at an altitude of about
420km, some 200km lower than expected. The behaviour of the ionosphere is important because disturbances in its structure can upset satellite communications and radar."
skyisfalling tag has never been so accurate!
Thats a pretty wide margin of error.
Things in the Ionosphere can be closer then they appear.
...the current satellites may be working just by chance?
Yeah, amazing. That guy has a huge telescope, but no computer to write notes on.
shouldn't we have already known this? this seems like really, really fundamental data.
Chicken Little, after many years of mockery, finally has the last laugh.
Depending on the situation it's not comfortable for everyone to take notes on a computer. I type very fast (between 90 and 120 wpm depending on how complex the words are), but if I am looking to just jot down information I still prefer pen and paper. It's free form, I can draw lines and make connections quicker, etc. For anything relevant I'll go back and transcribe my notes into text/digital form later. I've met quite a few other people who have similar feelings.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
HF propagation is effected too...
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
If this is an actual erosion of the ionosphere, we may be looking at a serious problem. Whereas a hole in the ozone only amounts to a net increase of UV radiation (not that that is any good for humans), a thinner ionosphere means more solar wind removing our planet's atmosphere. Enough erosion and we'll be more barren than Mother Theresa at a Gay Pride festival.
Has anyone noticed any large maid-like robotic entities in orbit? More importantly to our future, were there any winnebagos with wings nearby?
I'm suddenly almost halfway towards my goal of making it into space. Take THAT everyone else at the class reunion!
Nonsense. There is no way this will affect communi
[NO CARRIER]
Look, if you want to make car analogies, then just register the account already.
It's hard to use the term "outer space" in anything but jest when Virgin Galactic won't even take you into orbit, but rather will give you only a decent view and a few minutes of weightlessness.
How could we not know the distance to the ionosphere? Isn't it used all the time for its radio-reflecting properties?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Now we know why the Earth is warming. We've just got less atmosphere to hold all the heat.
WTF? We've been launching rockets for 50 years to probe the space around us and they're only figuring this out now?
Or has this changed from before?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Wow, 420 just took on a whole new significance!
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
I've never seen a definition of "space" that was based on the altitude of the ionosphere before. I've never seen a claim that the ionosphere was at a certain altitude, rather than a range with upper and lower bounds before. Most articles I see give about a 500 to 600 km altitude range, such as http://www.dcs.lancs.ac.uk/iono/ionosphere_intro/
Still, that's the ionosphere, not "space", and it's subject to wide variations of many different periods. TFA fails to show whether the result is a permanent feature or simply the measurement they found. It can hardly be anything other than the latter because there have been many, many measurements of the ionosphere, starting with numerous sounding rockets during the International Geophysical Year, 1957-58. TFA fails to account for their one results being at odds with many others.
And by "space" they mean "outer space", ie. outside the earth's atmosphere. If they meant simply "space", it could be the simple Euclidian definition of 3 extent dimensions. As such, we all exist in "space".
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
An accurate model of the ionosphere is also important for GPS. GPS works by measuring the propagation delays of radio waves, which are affected by the Earth's atmosphere.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Are we sure that they measured the distance in KM - what if it was miles, or furlongs, or rods, or perches....? I understand that this type of mistake has happened in the recent past.
Rich people are eccentric. Poor people are strange. Me, I'd be happy with odd.
This reminds me of a party and a game of charades. To be perverse I decided to have my charade be "ionosphere" figuring I'd stump everybody and wouldn't be bugged anymore about playing.
Wouldn't you know it? Somebody guessed it in 15 seconds. Yeah, I hadn't counted on a radar systems engineer being at the party. :)
Even textbooks on this topic don't usually spell out the very simple dependence between atmospheric depth and surface temperature: when you warm the Earth, air molecules 'bounce' higher, so the atmosphere gets deeper. When you cool it, they bounce less high. The higher they fly, the slower they move, unintuitively termed 'adiabatic cooling'.
A small percentage of the highest bouncers can be reheated by the Sun near the top of their bounces, and I assume the reported lower ionosphere is more due to a decline in this factor than to any global cooling.
"... because disturbances in its structure can upset satellite communications and radar" ;-)
They say nothing about disturbance in the Force. IMHO a disturbance in the Force can cause much greater damage than some petty disturbance in the ionosphere
who moved it?
No see the pen corresponds to the ionosphere. Thus noting close proximity and therefore familiarity hence it should be well understood...and....
you know what? He should have taken notes on the computer. *sigh*
And with "just" they may be referring to the justice meaning. As in "Space's Justice is closer than expected". And "bit" might be about the binary unit, as in "it's a 1 closer or 0 closer.". Finally, the term "closer" could be about the baseball relief pitcher who closes the game.
So, for all we know, the title could perfectly mean:
"Euclidean's three extent dimensions are applying justice a little one or an equally little zero, relief pitcher who finishes the game, than expected"
This is significant in more than just military satellite operations. The global phone system, international trade, global e-mail, etc. Even radio communications can and will be affected (think shorter range 'skip'). Does anyone have an idea as to the 'why'? TFA is a little sketchy...
Isn't communication to big to fail? I can't wait to read THIS bailout story...
The distance to the edge of an atmospheric layer varies by definition, season, orbit, solar radiation conditions, and probably a variety of other conditions. If the edge measured was at 220km instead of 420km, is there agreement on the definition (as a start)? 220 km converts to about 137 miles. 420km converts to about 261 miles. (sorry, I'm in the US, I think in non-metric units.) The US requirement for astronaut wings is 50 miles. Since none of the people in orbit since 1960 (except for moonshots) went higher than the upper number, where they all in orbit within the ionosphere, according to the claimed 'old' definition? Unlikely.
If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now, when?
Somehow this never screwed up NASA...I would think the distance you have to travel to clear earth's atmosphere would have been an important thing for space flight. Anyone want to shed some light on this? Is it just that when space is concerned 200km is pretty small?
(Off topic, but I'll bite) ...or maybe there are a lot of voters that realize that the man has not done anything of substance except run for successively higher offices. Now that he is President, everyone is waiting breathlessly to see if the man can actually do anything besides 'speak well'. Personally, I hope he does something amazing that transforms American society for the better. I'm just not holding my breath until he does.
Can't stop the signal, Mal
It probably will be said to be because of global warming. Global warming is a stock answer for anything, because the solution is already made and cannot tolerate dissent.
I got yelled at for a previous post in which I questioned how accurate the measurements of the past could be in calculating that we've "warmed" by a whole degree and all. Apparently that's an invalid question, because those measurements are completely infallible. We can, however, completely screw up the measurement of a slice of the atmosphere by a huge margin due to our lack of meaningful measuring. Also, our satellites appear to be working most of the time anyway, which I find surprising if the information about the measured change is accurate.
The nice thing is, it doesn't matter. According to the new religion of consensus science, all that matters is that most of us agree that the ionosphere IS closer than it used to be; science being proven via popular vote apparently. I doubt this will have that big an issue on telecommunication satellites, because if there is a problem it can be solved using a redistribution of wealth to third world warlords or a satellite cap-and-trade system to solve our technological problems.
I'm a satanic clam.
Didn't The Sharper Image used to sell one of those?
"Kittens give Morbo gas!"
I agree and would mod you +1 insightful if I hadn't wanted to comment too (even though this whole thread is OT).
Essentially, Obama is like any other person who excels at a given task. He, like a professional athlete or superstar doctor, lawyer, or burgerflipper, is really good at what he does and people can sense it. What do coaches do with a freshman QB that outperforms the JV or Varsity player... they groom them and advance them as quickly as possible.
His inexperience is not a sign of weakness but a sign of just how good he is. I agree that he hasn't been vetted by the system, and hasn't really done anything of note but advance through the ranks... but look at the kid in your office who keeps getting promoted for simply doing the mundane work better than his peers; you don't need to make waves to prove yourself capable.
Finally, I think that the American people feel that his inexperience also means that his perspective is better. Most politicians spend years accomplishing next to nothing and over time they come to accept it as "just the way things are". Obama is still young and idealistic enough to think that he can make things happen (at least that's how people see him).
Do I think Obama is going to do anything particularly remarkable... no. Not any more than any other President could with a lot of popular support and a large majority in Congress. What Obama will do (I believe) is rally the people, and essentially wield the American people as a tool to push his adjenda... while making the people feel like they have power over their government.
I am a true Republican that voted Obama... for two reasons. I believe that the American people need to be reminded of THEIR power in government. And I believe that the Social Conservative party that pretends to be the Republican party has destroyed our two party system. Why can't I vote for a smaller government and states rights anymore?
Sometimes the best solution is to stop wasting time looking for an easy solution.
I hear Mars might become a substitute for Earth in the future. That could really impact the value of your Earth and depreciate the assets in your non-diversified Earth portfolio.
Closer ionosphere results in increases of off-topic trolls.
"Kittens give Morbo gas!"
Is it actual weightlessness, or just less apparent weight?
And if they can't make the necessary altitude, can they get away with just doing a negative-g loop instead?
Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
Hey, that was good enough for NASA for the first two Mercury flights, with Al Shepard and Gus Grissom.
From what I understand it doesn't even leave hearths atmosphere just reaches the edge then falls back down. Think of it as an amusement park ride that just goes a little higher.
An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
Virgin galactic describes it as "Sub-orbital"
An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
Has it changed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karman_line
Slashdot = Sarcasm
A communications disruption can only mean one thing.
It's good shit man.