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Class Teaches Nerds Social Skills

PeterAitch writes "According to Reuters, Potsdam University in Germany is now teaching social skills as part of their IT courses. This is intended to 'ease entry into the world of work'. The 440 students enrolled in the master's degree course will learn how to write flirtatious text messages and emails, impress people at parties and cope with rejection(s)." The class is taught by a superficial model, who will fall in love with the nerdiest student at the end of the semester after realizing that he is beautiful on the inside.

33 of 639 comments (clear)

  1. Social Engineering skills would be cool by Vandil+X · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Remember, Kevin Mitnick was a computer hacker, but an even better social engineer.

    --
    Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, START
    1. Re:Social Engineering skills would be cool by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Social engineering is about abusing social interactions and emotions. Not having them.

      I'm quite good at faking emotions, that doesn't mean I know how to feel. I know what the person I am dealing with expects to see or how to press his buttons. That does not mean I understand how those buttons work, I only know that pressing those buttons gives me the desired results.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  2. You cant teach tact. by Lumpy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Many of the "nerds" I know are not socially inept because of lack of training. It's because they have a disorder or disease. Not bathing, incredibly wierd behaivoir, etc... The "hot chick" is not going to date you because you are...

    1 - dressed like a wierdo. Sorry Emo/Goth is not cool.. It's as bad as dressing in a star trek shirt.

    2 - Social tact, you have to actually have some.

    3 - Hygene.. good god, take a bath, discover toothpaste, and deodorant, cheap cologne is not a substitute.

    4 - There are no good pick up lines. Stop trying, stop reading the speed seduction books, they do not work if you do not understand human psychology and look like a "hunk" or at least semi cute to a woman.

    5 - Nerdy = dorky and repellant. the second you mention you're a top notch national MTG player they will ask to go to the bathroom and never come back. Magic the Gathering is NOT COOL, nor any of your really nerdy activities.

    Now all bets are off if you find a nerdy girl. I strongly suggest never even trying for the hotties and look only for nerdy girls. Librarians tend to be nerdy and incredibly sexually creative. Honestly a HOT CHICK is not worth the pain of their upkeep, and maintenance.

    Find a nerdy chick that is a bit of a sex freak and you got a incredible relationship.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:You cant teach tact. by TWX · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm going to have to disagree with some of your points.

      Being part of a subculture (goth, emo, punk, etc) is fine when you're associating with others in that subculture or with others who are attracted to that subculture. I was a goth and I met most of my girlfriends at goth clubs or at Rocky Horror.

      Tact is less important than it may seem, as there are plenty of assholes who do well with the ladies because their behavior is seen as being strong, edgy, or cool. This usually doesn't last long, but it lasts long enough for that particular guy to get what he wants.

      The art of the pickup line is misunderstood. The entire point of the first minute or two that you speak to a new person is to convey that initial impression. What you say very much matters. Now, traditional, oft repeated lines are hackneyed to the point that they're useless unless she's already looking for sex, but something clever that matches the rest of your personality might serve to distinguish you from all of the other guys who are all attempting to do the exact same thing.

      there's a difference between being Nerdy, Dorky, and Geeky. Geeks have technical, obsessive interests, but also have social skills above a minimum threshold. Nerds have technical interests and abilities but don't meet the minimum threshold for social skills and general self-maintenance. Dorks have the same rough social skills and self-maintenance as Nerds, but generally lack the technical abilities. They're the AOLers, the me-too-ers, the guys who are "so into science fiction" because they like Star Wars and have watched it over and over and over, and the like.

      I will agree with you on bathing though. Shower daily (preferably morning) and as preparation before going out.

      I will also agree that most women generally do not care about what speed of microprocessor is in your PC, or how much RAM you have, or what kind it is, or what video card you have. If women care about your computer at all, it's because it functions for them the way they want it to. You'll only find out if it functions the way they want it to if you manage to get them home, so it's generally not worth trying to go that route until after you've already been successful. Same with gearheads. Women don't really care about the dual-quad intake with 1600cfm airflow into the 440 with headers with 2" primaries into 3.5" collectors and a race cam; they care that the car looks cool, sounds good, and that they'll look good riding in it. It can be a six cylinder for all they know, so long as it looks and sounds good. When I would go to meet women, I'd talk about other hobbies that I had, like my movie collection, music, and the like.

      It's all about giving them what they want, really. It may be a bit of a facade, but that's okay, really, if they're in it only for the short term too.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  3. Re:10 years too late... by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Social Intelligence is a skill that can be taught and learned. That is how most people get it although somewhat unconsciously. Inherent personality does play a role which is why "Nerds" have to work harder at learning it.

    So is quantum mechanics, but like with social skills some are just basically hopeless.

    Because the majority of the world runs on Social IQ more than we like to admit.

    When was that in question? I work with a number of very smart people who I wouldn't even think of putting in front of a customer. Of course, there are also smart people who can hold a real conversation, so I think this stereotype is overplayed.

    You have to know your stuff, but if you can't express it you'll always be the guy they stick in a cube where he'll never interact with anyone. That guy also has his ideas stolen quite often, unfortunately.

  4. Learning Center in FWB, Florida by bigattichouse · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As children (4th thru 6th grade) my wife and I attended a once-a-week school for the gifted in Okaloosa County, Florida (think Destin-area) as the gifted program. Not only was it like college, where you signed up for classes in things like Chemistry, Children's Theatre, or Visual Arts - but they had an amazing class called "Looking Good". Dr. Christensen taught one class for girls, and one for boys on etiquette, dating, ballroom dancing, hygiene, etc. At the end of the year, they held a dance at which the two classes would interact. I have to say it left a huge impression on me over the years - and I feel my life, particularly in social situations, was greatly enriched by her program and teaching.

    --
    meh
  5. Re:Extracurricular activites by Notquitecajun · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It's an odd toss-up, and the one mistake many people make in homeschooling - the social isolation. However, there are good reasons to keep them out as well - so many of the kids in schools are also socially stunted with crazy, short-term priorities and morals and values that are absolutely worthless. Self-control is frowned upon.

    I've heard of some other curious instances, like elementary kids being homeschooled for a few years and then placed into schools, where they nearly immediately assume leadership roles in their classroom and don't have the self-esteem issues from being picked on so much.

    There's also something to be said from learning social skills from adults rather than other immature kids.

    I'm planning on homeschooling, btw, if I cannot afford a good private school.

  6. Re:Extracurricular activites by JCSoRocks · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If you do homeschool I'd really encourage you to find a way for your kids to regularly interact with their peers. I spent 5 years working with high school students. Every kid that came in that was homeschooled took at least a year to stop being socially retarded. It was almost impossible to have a conversation with them when they first started coming. After a year or so you could actually talk to them about something they were interested in and they had developed sufficient social skills to build friendships with the other kids. Obviously my experience isn't scientific, but I'm not exaggerating - Literally ever homeschooled kid, literally over a year.

    --
    You are using English. Please learn the difference between loose and lose; they're, there, and their; your and you're.
  7. Re:If humanties are required anyway, then why not? by Al+Dimond · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Humanities classes are definitely useful, whether they're designed to give you specific skills you need or not. Having some knowledge of techniques, theories, and discoveries from fields other than your own, and a basic knowledge of the art and literature of your culture (or even other ones) can give you different perspectives on your work and help you understand what's going on in the world. Similarly, math and logical reasoning skills are important for writers and musicians, and colleges usually make them take classes in those subjects. The classes most engineers take in the humanities are usually at about the same level as the ones most musicians take in math, just scratching the surface of the subject in question. Sadly, neither group tends to take these classes very seriously, and misses out on opportunities to think in different ways.

  8. You can't teach self-esteem by Loundry · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The reason why nerds have that weird behavior is because they can get away with it. This is because they essentially have nothing to lose, and the capital that I'm referring to here is acceptance and validation by his peers. Since he knows he would never "get anywhere" with them anyway, he has no incentive to have the hygiene or tact that you mention.

    If his self-esteem is even lower, then he claims those "outsider" social trappings (emo/goth) as part of his identity. This is a way for outsiders to gain companionship, but, inside, many of them want out.

    The only way for an individual to gain self-esteem is to earn it. It can't be given to him by teachers who hand out "Good Job!" stickers to all students regardless of effort. An individual has to meet people, make friends, take chances, stand up for himself, refuse to be abused, be positive, and be funny. If he's rewarded for that behavior with more friends, then he gains self-esteem.

    High school teaches us nerds all the wrong things about human interaction. Being punished for our choices drives us farther into seclusion and "nerdy" behavior.

    Teaching "social skills" won't fix anything. Instead, send people to therapy and help them find ways to rebuild their destroyed self-esteem. Telling a nerd, "Bathe every once in a while!" is not going to do him any good if, inside, he says to himself: "I'm not worth the effort."

    My self-esteem was destroyed when I was 12. It took me until I was 34 to earn it back.

    --
    I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
    1. Re:You can't teach self-esteem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      High school teaches us nerds all the wrong things about human interaction. Being punished for our choices drives us farther into seclusion and "nerdy" behavior.

      High school is a completely different atmosphere. The biggest culture shock is going from high school to the real world (I never been to a "real" college, but that's a different discussion), where everyone ISN'T an asshole, who spreads rumors behind everyone's backs. I found it so funny how even best friends would talk behind each others backs.

      If I had a choice, and knew of other options, I wouldn't have gone to high school. Hell, I recommend that anyone with children to tell them to take the GED and head for college. High school teaches you NOTHING about social interaction or "finding your own identity". The only thing it shows you is that people will do anything to become cool or popular, much like some places online (which are more than likely frequented by high school students anyways).

      High school is perhaps one of the worst times in your life, and if you think it's the best time... then try looking at some of the "popular" kids 10-20 years later. I'm not saying high school isn't fun though, but don't bother looking for acceptance from other kids.

    2. Re:You can't teach self-esteem by CrazeeCracker · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm going to copypasta one of my previous comments, because I never got any replies, and because I feel it is appropriate:

      I'm just going to throw this out there...

      As a European who's never been to the US, I don't pretend to have any idea of what a "typical American high-school" looks like. The only clues I'm exposed to are the depictions of high-schools in Hollywood movies (bear with me, here).

      Now, I know that movies are probably the worst possible source of information for this type of thing, but the fact that high-schools are so consistently portrayed a certain way makes me wonder exactly how much truth is in these plots. Here's what I noticed:

      People are stereotyped much more than in my personal high-school experience. You've got the book-smart nerds who are completely socially inept, the athletic jocks who're either either stupid or hide their intelligence, and the girls, who can be anywhere on the spectrum between "nice and smart" and "dumb and mean".

      Yes, I know these are stereotypes. Yes, I know movies tend to exaggerate these things to the point of inaccuracy. But all of my limited experience seems to have verified these stereotypes so far, even when talking to US high-school students I know. Feel free to flame, but all I'm really asking is how much these stereotypes really apply to high-school students. Because if they're anywhere close to what they're portrayed to be in the media, then I think I've found a big chunk of the problem.

      --
      Of course I didn't RTFA.
  9. US HR practices by Kupfernigk · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Some of the posts here seem to be unwittingly revealing just how religious right fundamentalist a lot of US HR practice can be. The cultural gap is staggering. One US company I worked for in the 90s had a policy that nobody in a plant was allowed to have a "relationship" with anyone else. Husbands and wives in the same company were found jobs at different locations...imagine their shock on discovering that in Japan co-workers were actively encouraged to marry, and that US HR policies could not cross the Pacific.

    Surely the point of the training is that some nerds don't know the point at which ordinary human interaction becomes harassment, and because of this either fail to communicate or get into trouble. I didn't know this and then ended up in what was nearly a single sex university (Cambridge at the end of the 60s) - it took several years in the world of work to recover.

    It's also worth pointing out that when nerds do get married, which they usually do, it often turns out very well. Low divorce rates, successful children. The application of intelligence to human relationships is not a bad idea.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
  10. Re:You can't teach self-esteem -- addendum by Loundry · · Score: 4, Interesting

    At very bottom rung of the self-esteem ladder is furries. No matter who you are or what you are into, you will be accepted into a furry community. It's a great big love-fest over there. It's no surprise that there are so many gay guys and nerdy guys among furries: both of them have traditionally had their self-esteem utterly ruined by the time they graduate high school. The furry community provides them with a perfect escape from the hell world they've grown up in -- this escape is a fantasy world where everyone loves them.

    --
    I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
  11. Re:Alternativeley by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I personally think this is a cool idea for a class. Just think how YOU would respond if they brought in Jeri Ryan [imdb.com] as a guest speaker!

    I would have asked her why she kept playing a role that sucked and how she feels about being the final nail in the coffin of the last Star Trek series (Enterprise doesn't count) ;)

    --
    I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
    We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
  12. Re:Extracurricular activites by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Congratulations you are like the typical New York Cityer who think NYC is the center of the world and the rest of us are a bunch of country bumpkins. Having lived in Albany, NY (you know the Capital of NY). NYC are a bunch of Whiny Babies... Oh we need this service oh we need that... We need more money from Upstate. I don't see what is so adult about needing a high paying job to live life equivalent of a college dorm room.

    Of course this is partially tung in cheek, Buy New Yorkers (City) or LA while have a diverse population and there unique culture, It doesn't really make them any better or adult or worse then the rest of the world, just different, being adult is about taking responsibility for yourself and your own actions.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  13. Re:Extracurricular activites by benj_e · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Not only is your experience not "scientific" (as if experiences could be), it is not typical.

    I worked in higher education for many years. The consensus among my colleagues was that homeschooled kids were usually in the top tier of academic work and had no more problems with social interactions than any other college freshman.

    In short, they were normal students who were better prepared academically that the majority of their peers.

    --
    The Tao that can be spoken is not the one eternal Tao
  14. Re:Extracurricular activites by evol262 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I see the over-inflated sense of superiority hasn't faded.

    While I don't necessarily begrudge pitying those who went through traditional primary education (whether public or private), the quality of homeschooling is hardly better on the average. You may quote statistics about likelihood to go to college (and yes, the ratio of homeschooled children admitted to college is higher than public education, though pretty much on par with private education -- which says more about the average income of homeschooled families versus traditional education), but the matriculation rate is comparable.

    The lack of standardized curriculum is a sticking point. Beyond a doubt, traditional education offers opportunities which are nigh-impossible to get while home schooled (extracurricular, Johns Hopkins Math Program, et al), while home schooling provides a chance to tailor to individual students. Whether or not that is a good thing is up for debate, I guess. Certainly what I'm doing for a living now is not what I thought I'd want to do when I was younger.

    What is certain (other than "for certain" being a grammatically incorrect construct) is that you get out of education what you put into it. It's also certain that a far higher proportion of home-schooled students are taught in religiously-charged environments which are hardly free from bias. There's a reason why home-schooled children, while often doing well at spelling bees (though it's hard to tell whether this is because those are skills autistic people -- who may have trouble with traditional education -- excel at), home-schooled children don't exactly dominate science competitions. "High-potential" students will excel no matter what situation they're thrown into, but the majority of people are average. Total range of vocabulary is pretty much the same between the two (journals of cognitive development and speech pathology cover this every few years), and having an "adult's capacity" for vocabulary (where I suspect you meant that home-schooled children tend to use allegories, metaphors, and figures of speech more prevalent in the adult population) isn't necessarily something to trumpet. Your phonotactic repetition is not representative of vocabulary size, and simply indicates that you (as collective home-schoolers) spent more time with adults than with peers in your age group.

    Slashdot isn't the best place to debate the relative merits of schooling systems, but you'll find that reality is a lot more nuanced than the picture you have of it right now as you get older.

    --
    "The more corrupt a society, the more numerous are its laws." -Tacticus
  15. I'm a geek too. And age gives me/us the edge. by Qbertino · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I find that age gives me the edge. There may be some biografic details to that, but being a end-30ties geek and nerd I find the big stars among my peers dimishing and me rising to new heights. It is only last year that I had my second and third sex & love-affair ever, and all three (including my first) know about each other and accept it. I remember nearly killing myself over not having ever had a girl at the age of 23 back in the early nineties. Now I find myself growing cooler by the year.

    My geekishness and passion for the things I liked doing still burns and reflects back on me and has early twen PYT students at currently hip CS flat-sharing parties judge me about late 20ish and brake into heavy flirting. ... That 22 yr. old nurse at the last party was particularly cute. *sigh*

    I was the typical nerd that didn't consume great amounts of alcohol back then and stopped drinking 20 years ago, which starts to give me an brainpower edge over my former-jock-now-fat-ass springbreaking peers. Instead I stayed up late on Fidonet, RPG and Tabletop sessions, pimping my social skills, my typign, wording, debating skills and my literacy. On top of that, everything awkward and geeky back then is super hip now. Comics (now Mangas), Fantasy, IT and computers, programming (gives you the status of some high priest at some occasions nowadays) and gaming.

    Now I work at a game dev company with a current growth rate so bizar you wouldn't believe it, and am one of the oldest and most experienced amoung a team of currently 180 people. The 'young' guys come to me every odd day with a question, and when I give them an advice they listen and are gratefull.

    I got my ass kicked by the pricks at school so many times, I still burn with fury sometimes just thinking about it. I've practiced performing and martial arts since the end of highschool and today I'd outrun every jock, who have all grown fat and lazy and/or have tar-lungs because they where cool back then and started smoking. And then I could still beat the living piss out of them, 5 at a time.

    IMPORTANT ADVICE TO EARLY TWEEN NERDS: If you are a young male geek and nerd, rejoice. You're time is ten to fifteen years into the future, when your peers, girls included, have enough life experience to have learned what you know allready. Pratice art, take your time to learn about style, fashion and manners geek style (i.e.: learn it systematically like a new PL), stay in shape, go and take dancing lessons (I'm picking up Tango again next month), cut smoking and alcohol and live healthy and at the age of 30+ you'll be able to take your veritable pick of the litter of good-looking girls who can appreciate intelligent, reasonable men. When the pricks have burned all their karma and you'll kick their ass on every scale available and of interest to attractive women. Oh, and the sex will be awesome. Promise.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  16. A very necessary class by ErichTheRed · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A lot of people might laugh at something like this, but I'm not. I don't work with tons of people who might be considered "nerds" but that's mainly because my industry is a little less tech-heavy than a typical IT company. But, I have worked with tons of nerdy consultants/contractors.

    There's two main types -- the first is the cultural nerd. Many people in IT have different backgrounds and come from all over. Some may not be used to American culture or know how to act in certain situations. The second is the typical native-born stereotypical basement-dweller nerd. Working with one of these tends to be very difficult just because they annoy most "normals." I'm not a social genius either, but I know what is and is not appropriate in a work setting. I show up to work in clean clothes, shower regularly and really try to take an interest in whatever topic a coworker wants to talk about. Some people I work with really don't make this effort.

    Even a class on "what to do in a work environment" would be a huge plus. How many times have you had to cut off a colleague who kept interrupting in business meetings and saying "No, you're wrong, that'll never work."

    Anyone left stateside in IT in the next ten years or so is going to have a really hard time finding work if they can't at least interact with people.

  17. The Social Isolation Arguement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I, myself, went to public schools. However, one of my cousins was homeschooled, so I can comment on my social skills vs. hers. I would say that she actually has better social skills than I do. I am your stereotypical nerd. I've never dated. Not once have I been kissed or anything else along those lines. i have very few friends. She, however, is extremely outgoing. She's dated, she's got lots of friends, etc. She didn't recieve the best education in the world (in fact, I would say her mother probably did a *worse* job than public schools). Compare this to my friend Thomas, who I knew for quite some time. He was more socially withdrawn (like myself, actually), and he was homeschooled and public schooled. His sister had the same educational experience but was not withdrawn at all. I would wager that some of us are more or less prone to be intro- or extraverted. I myself am an extreme introvert, to the point of having an anxiety disorder. Even posting on message boards (or slashdot, even) can be difficult for me. I was picked on relentlessly in our lovely government education system, and learned hardly anything for it. I knew about evolution from my own independent studies. Learned some trig from rudimentary games. Learned a great deal about history and computers outside of school. What's left is algebra, and a desire to stop reading, due to the crappy choices schools have for literature. Wuthering Heights? WTF! I thank God that that author did not write much else.

  18. Re:This can be improved by removing some text by GreggBz · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'd recommend that anyone that's tired of this "shit" read The Game by Neil Strauss.

    Now, you might have to slightly disregard some of your morals, but the methods in this book work.

    Also, try to find a well groomed friend (preferably female) to give you fashion advice. Women enjoy making over geeks. You *have* to go shopping sure, but nothing is ever easy.

  19. Home Schooling - Re:Extracurricular activites by suggsjc · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Your experiences may be correct, but don't let "home schooled" be a label you just put on people. I was home schooled from third grade until high school. During that time I was involved with many extracurricular activities from athletics to various clubs (both social and academic).

    When I did come back to high school, I don't think I was any more awkward or disoriented than any of the other kids moving up from middle school. The biggest difference I really noticed was how far ahead I was above most of the students curriculum-wise (even compared to the "advanced" courses I took). Additionally, I earned a starting position for two varsity sports my freshman year (soccer and wrestling), began playing football my sophomore year eventually earning a starting position my junior year. I graduated with a 3.86, was named "most outgoing" and got into a top 25 university (Vanderbilt).

    That said, I know exactly the type of people you are talking about. They were some of the most socially awkward people I have ever met. This was mainly due to their parents super controlling nature, and I honestly feel bad for the years it will take them to adapt to the "real world."

    Still, my point is that this group in general is sensitive to stereotypes (ie. "Nerd") and the associated negative social connotations that they hold. Home schoolers are no different. Many may have social issues, but that probably has more to do with the atmosphere they grew up in.

    To throw a little extra into the debate. I think that home schooling is a fantastic method for teaching when an appropriate environment is available. From the more focused curriculum , to the individual attention, to the flexibility of schedule it has many advantages. However, I think it is all to commonly used by parents who want to control all aspects of their children's lives. It is most often these people who give the overall system a bad reputation. Still even though we may or may not choose to home school our own kids I will adamantly defend it as a choice for parents.

    --
    When I have a kid, I want to put him in one of those strollers for twins and then run around the mall looking frantic.
  20. Introversion and Extroversion by permaculture · · Score: 2, Interesting

    No-one's mentioned introversion / extroversion yet? Briefly,

    75% of people are extroverts. They gain energy from social interaction.

    25% of people are introverts. They lose energy from social interaction, but gain energy from solitary cogitation.

    75% of intellectuals are introverts, and only 25% are extroverts. This is probably why the 'socialising for nerds' class is necessary.

    --
    Environmentalism is the new Victorianism. Everyone ties on a green corset and pretends we're virtuous.
  21. Re:Nerds don't need this.... by daveime · · Score: 3, Interesting

    HAI

    I CAN HAZ CHEEZBURGER ?

    KTHXBAI

    For some reason it makes more sense to me than that damn txt-speak my kids use.

  22. Re:10 years too late... by SoupGuru · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Society has rules. Sometimes the rules are pretty hard to figure out but a large majority of us get taught the rules from a very early age.

    I find it frustrating that the obsessive nerds that will sit down with a problem and not sleep until it is solved (for fun!) won't apply the same practices to interacting with those around them.

    Join a group but for god's sake, if you don't know what you're doing, shut the hell up! Be polite, answer questions concisely, and, most of all, smile. Sit back and observe those around you. Be shy. Shyness is one thing. Being obstinate and abrasive is a completely different thing.

    You'll get the hang of it with practice but just like any job, you can't jump in at the highest levels without learning the ropes first. And you learn better when you're listening and attentive.

    --
    What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable
  23. Re:This can be improved by removing some text by nabsltd · · Score: 2, Interesting

    he is desirable because she is successful and will give your children a higher chance of likewise being successful and producing viable offspring.

    Just because someone is well-dressed and clean doesn't mean they are successful.

    I know many people who are far better groomed than I am, but are also up to their neck in debt. I'm not saying it's because they spend all their money on superficial things, but it sure doesn't help their net worth.

    I also know some people who do things like buy businesses so they can fire the people who treated them like crap because they weren't dressed like they just walked out of GQ. Jeans and a workshirt do not always equal "poor slob"... in this case they mean a guy who has 20,000 acres of prime Texas land filled with cattle.

  24. Nice people don't like patronising people by GoddessOfDeath · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Riddle me this: why is it that if someone has trouble in math or something, other people who can do it will offer to help, but if someone is socially inept, the immediate reaction is to ostracize the person rather than offering to give them social coaching? I have helped people all my life in technical areas where they needed it, but not one time has anyone made any such offer to me.

    My theory as to the reason people don't help socially inept people when they do help with topics like maths or history or whatever, is that it is obvious if you don't know that stuff - there is no way or reason to hide your lack of knowledge. However, when it comes to social situations (speaking from my own past experience now), sometimes while one does know the answer, one is too shy or too afraid of mocking to act correctly. Now that I am (somewhat) more socially capable (it took me a while to build up guts etc), I don't help others who are making the same mistakes, as I know that had someone come up to me and told me what to do, I would have felt patronised and even worse than I did already, because I already knew what to do.

    The problem here is, of course, what if the person has no idea what to do and would really appreciate the help?

    So - nice people don't like to be patronising, and not-nice people don't care. One solution could be to go up to a nice, somewhat nerdy but socially adept person and ask them to help you - they may know what you are going through but didn't want to hurt your feelings...

  25. Re:Extracurricular activites by Kelbear · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I was friends with a homeschooled girl back in college, she wasn't bad at socializing, she was extremely friendly and extremely talkative.

    But you could definitely tell she was homeschooled because she was sweet to the core and so ready to love a stranger. It was disarming to see so much naivetè. There are a number of "walls" that everyone puts up around new people and she didn't have them. I didn't even recognize these walls existed until I met her.

    She assumed everyone would be a great friend and treated them as such, she had a much shorter sense of personal distance, and was much more open to physical contact. I am the polar opposite, everyone who's not my friend isn't worth getting to know, and I don't want to be touched by anyone but my closest circle of relationships. I'm not saying my way is better, or even that it's a rational behavior. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'd be happier if I was as social as her(though I'm pretty happy already). I just hope she won't end up burned somehow by being so open.

  26. Re:This can be improved by removing some text by Merc248 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm definitely not the first person to say this, but, well...

    Fuck. That. Shit.

    I didn't read The Game, but I read many of the more "esoteric" books in the community, like the Juggler Method, Mystery Method, etc. etc. etc. And I realized, after meeting many people who were really involved into this shit, that really, it's a bunch of crap. The best thing to learn from it is that it's a good way to differentiate between what to do and what not to do. Everything that the pickup community stands for is everything that regular people SHOULD NOT DO.

    I was involved in it for a few months after a friend convinced me to join the community, and boy, I was in for a ride. I came out of it extremely disgusted and wanting a bit of normalcy in my interactions, such as, well, actually communicating on the spot and not out of a script. There were literally people in the community who would write down and memorize every possible conversation possibility and act it out in a bar. What they don't get, however, is that every situation is different, even if the spoken words are exactly the same. The context determines the language used, whether it's body language or spoken language, and when you are acting out a script, it often comes off as very incongruent to the situation. It's awkward, for short.

    I don't recommend ANYONE to get into that pickup community crap. It's morally bankrupt, and you won't learn a damn thing, unless you go in there totally skeptical (like I did) and come away with some knowledge about how not to act.

    I know, all of the above is probably borderline trolling, but from first hand experience, I would absolutely not recommend anyone to read those retarded books. Just be social and learn slowly by immersing yourself in friendly conversation.

    --
    "Hegelians, who love a synthesis, will probably conclude that he wears a wig." - Bertrand Russell
  27. Its a tournament. by WorkingDead · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The social world is a biological ladder tournament. Through practice and preparation, you have to put yourself ahead of as much of the competition as possible. Just watch the animal shows on the Discovery channel. We are exactly like them but a little more complicated. We are a herd and you have to fight for your place in it. You have to form a strategy and utilize your time and effort into developing the traits and skill sets that your particular plan will need. You don't have tact? So what? I know a guy who completely lacks it and has tons of friends and get plenty of attention from the opposite sex. He just redirected his effort else where. I also know people that have had similar results completely different approaches. If you are having problems, then you either don't care or can't adapt.

    First, cover the basics. Hygiene & basic manners. Get that right and you will be in the top 50% of the competition. If needed get professional help. Salon instead of great clips? Laser hair removal? Spa treatments? Do what it takes to get caught up. Read a book, take a class, or watch a make over show or two if you have to.

    Second, get in reasonable shape. Depending on how far you run with it, you can put yourself leaps and bounds ahead of the competition. It just takes time. If it took money, everyone would have it. Go to the closest gym and get a personal trainer. Do whatever they tell you to and stick with it for at least 6 months to a year.

    Third, appearance. Looks matter and you have to dress well. Just pic a style and go to the stores that cater to that style and wear whatever the manikins are wearing. Now do it consistently. Its that easy.

    If you are half way successful at these three steps you should be ahead of at least 75% of the competition. You can of course keep adding to your social appeal through other talents. Got a little tact? Great, but if not, do something interesting that people can relate to. Preferably, non technical, non science, non school sponsored. Examples - rock climbing, music, art, motorcycles, traveling, skateboarding, gardening, camping, wine, scuba diving, photography, acting, or anything that when you talk about it, people think it sounds fun and interesting. Just pick something.

    Do these things and people will come to you. Its that easy if you actually do it but it is a competition and there are always going to be people ahead of you and behind you. You just have to fight for your place. And remember, you have to adapt to the world. It won't do the same for you.

    Also, there is a great segment in the movie American Psycho about fitting in.

  28. Re:10 years too late... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Someone once told me that I need to, in their words, "Get out of my head." To this day I have not received better social advice, so I'm passing it on to you. I'll try to explain what that means for me, since I can certainly sympathize and your post really made me think. I hope you do not take any of this as a criticism or as a trite response.

    All of the points you make in your post are well-reasoned logical arguments that I can't really disagree with. The problem is that winning the argument serves no logical purpose. The conclusion you reach doesn't help you in any positive way, it only leads to more despair. So the thing to do is throw it away. Ignore it. Assume logic does not apply here. Assume you are wrong, whatever. I mean if you had a Furby sitting on your desk with the magic power to make you miserable, and which served no other useful purpose, would you keep it? No, you would toss it in the garbage.

    The harder part is to then approach life as a 5 year old would, and try to learn about others and develop social skills in the most naive and direct way possible. This is often the best way to learn anything you have very little experience in. It won't work as well as it does for actual 5 year olds of course, since you are neither young nor cute and probably have a lot of baggage, but it works a lot better than you would think. It's about being comfortable with yourself and being genuinely interested in other people, and giving up the search for logical answers. After all, it's more fun to be 5 sometimes isn't it? :)

    Whether or not you succeed in making lots of new friends, I think you will enjoy life a lot more. Your baggage will always be there of course, but even though you can't throw away your past experiences at least you can keep from dwelling on them. It may be 10 years too late to live a "normal" life, but it's not too late to enjoy the one you have.

  29. Re:10 years too late... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    In my experience, there are two things that will help you. 1) Be able to take constructive criticism, even harsh criticism without driving the people who are actually trying to help you away, and 2) find a friend who is honest and brave enough to honestly criticize you when you need it, but intelligent and compassionate enough to keep it constructive. I was lucky enough to have one of those in high school when I was as socially oblivious as any of the most hardcore nerds here (barring the ones with chemical imbalances,) but they're admittedly not easy to find.

    There are people out there who are good-hearted enough to help you if you'll let them, but you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. Of course there are people who will take advantage of your vulnerability for fun or profit too, so discerning between the two isn't easy.

    You're in the unfortunate position of having to do consciously what most normal people do intuitively as a child, so it's going to take some serious conscious effort. Find someone that you think you can trust, that you seem to have fundamental things in common with, that is more socially adept than you, and specifically and directly ask them, "when I'm screwing up, tell me honestly." Then don't punish them when they do.

    You're going to get hurt along the way, but one of the lessons you seem to need to learn is to take a hit without responding or responding positively, so that you don't escalate the situation. I don't know you, and I don't know the circumstances of the incidents you refer to, so I can only extrapolate from the way I got myself into similar situations to those you describe. I had a bad habit of taking everything, and I mean everything waaaaaaaaaaay too seriously. I had to let go of that to break the cycle. I'm going to guess that the people who did those admittedly bad things to you felt justified in what they did, most likely because whatever the situation was, it started out small, and you responded in kind to their bad reaction to you and they responded back, and so on until the situation escalated to what you describe. Sometimes you have to take one on the chin, and respond with "I'm sorry I pissed you off. I have no idea what I did, and if you'll tell me, I'll do my best not to do it again, or at least not do it around you." The sooner you do that in the cycle, the less painful it'll be for everyone involved. You've just got to learn to discern between someone who's picking on you and someone who you've just pissed off, because they can act a lot alike. That kind of apology will often work on the latter but usually not the former.

    This is not to say that you should allow yourself to be consistently abused. You're going to have to learn the difference between a little horsing around, and serious attempts to screw with you. Laughing off something that's a little embarrassing, but didn't really hurt you (remember what I said about not taking everything so seriously?) then watching that person's behavior over time is a good start. The ones that are consistently picking on you are pretty much meatspace equivalents of internet trolls, and dealing with them is pretty similar; don't give them what they want. If they keep picking on you, you're giving them what they want, otherwise they'd have gotten bored and gone away.

    All of the above is really what I would tell my younger self if I could so I hope my ramblings and speculations have some relevance to your life; hopefully some of that is helpful.