Tricked Into Buying OpenOffice.org?

mldkfa writes "Recently I told a friend about OpenOffice and how it was a great alternative to the big name pay office suites. She went home and searched on Google for it and thought she found the website, filled typical registration information, and downloaded OpenOffice.org 3.0. The next time she opened her e-mail she found a request for 98 [Euro] for her 1-year subscription to OpenOffice.org 3.0 from the company that she downloaded it from. Apparently the EULA stated this cost and here in Germany she is required to pay up. So I thought I would ask Slashdot, should she pay? On the OpenOffice.org German website there is a warning of these schemes being legal. Shouldn't Sun change the license of OpenOffice.org to protect their fans or are they doing this to protect someone else? It has really made me think about recommending it to any more friends." Below, read Google's translation of the warning; it wouldn't be the first time that open source software has been lightly repackaged and sold in ways that should raise eyebrows among anyone familiar with the wide, free availability of the same apps. Google translates the warning message thus: "WARNING before downloading from any third party: The download of OpenOffice.org is free from this page possible. These are not personal data. In recent times, however, we can reach more complaints about companies that the program for a fee for downloading. Among other leading search engines to search for OpenOffice.org to pay "download subscriptions. We want to emphasize that we have these offers are not affiliated and is not responsible. Due to the open-source philosophy allowed our license, but also the sale. When you download OpenOffice.org under no circumstances disclose your personal information!"

Comments

Delete it & forget about it

[beef curtains]

Personally (assuming the scammers didn't have any information that could result in them pursuing payment beyond e-mails, i.e. dinging my credit rating), I would remove that particular OpenOffice.org installation from my system and delete the install files. I would then disregard that and all subsequent communication from those scammers, and would go seek out the official, free installation.

Assuming she didn't give them any bank account, credit card or PayPal info (or any other type of payment info along those lines), what could they possibly do if she didn't pay? Keep sending her e-mails? Configuring e-mail filters to send them straight to the trash would quickly take care of that problem.

The fact that they allowed her to download & install the software before attempting to collect payment sounds like one could conceivably consider it to be "trialware", which would mean that deleting it in lieu of paying would be a totally legit response to being billed.

IMO, IANAL, etc.

Re:Delete it & forget about it

[eln]

That depends on what the submitter means by "typical registration information". To me, typical registration information means a name and an email address, but there are plenty of sites, particularly download sites that specialize in "free trial" type software, that will take a lot more information such as name, address and phone number. If they got that information, they could easily get enough information on her to ding her credit. At the very least, they could harass her until she gives up and pays them.

This is why you always give a fake address when asked unless it's a (reputable!) company where you're actually paying for something at the time or if it's a (reputable!) company which is actually going to send you some physical object.

Re:Delete it & forget about it

[thelexx]

This particular scam is popular in Germany in different guises. I can't remember the details of how the person I read about handled it, but I do know that ignoring it is NOT the correct answer. Which is one reason why the scam is popular. If someone is truly motivated, check out the expat forum toytowngermany.com, I'm sure the thread is still there.

Re:Delete it & forget about it

[Anonymous Coward]

Ha, yes, I remember that thread. Here it is.

Germany can be pretty screwed up in some respects, especially if you're used to living in a fairly "loose" system like the US. Still, Berlin's great. Low rents, cheap food, good beer, and incredible nightlife. And plenty of cute girls in Kreuzberg. It's not quite New York or Paris or London, but for 1/4 the price, I'm sure as hell not complaining.

Re:Delete it & forget about it

[RichardJenkins]

In the UK, even if you agree to buy something online you have a seven day 'cooling off' period in which to cancel. If she agreed to purchase OpenOffice from these (cretinous) people in the UK and didn't cancel within that time, she'd be liable to the charge.

Obviously, if they're going to lengths to make it appear as though it is a free download but in reality you have to pay it would be fraud.

Remember, the GPL allows you to resell the software. I doubt many people would like to see the GPL changed to mandate free (as in beer) sale of all software distributed under that license.

Apologies for the rambling nature of this comment, I'm quite drunk.

Re:Delete it & forget about it

[Angus McNitt]

Actually, you can return boxed software, mostly. During my stint as a a one man software business, I retained a lawyer to write my EULA and they stated that under Federal Law, you have to offer the ability to return the product as you are not disclosing all the requirements of ownership until the EULA is displayed. Otherwise it was an illegal contract and unenforceable. The Feds got involved due to it most likely being interstate commerce. Here's the caviat, the local store doesn't have to take it back, as that's controlled by local laws and consumer rights. I only would HAVE to accept it from the store, unless you bought from me directly. However most states have laws concernign this, and they are fairly pro-consumer, from what I've seen. It actually spelled this out in a M$ software sale partner agreement I got to see later when the store I worked from became a partner. "Guidelines for the Acceptance of Declined Software and Requirements of Funds Distribution." After reading it, basically if you wanna be a partner and sell our stuff, you have to accept EULA declined returns.

Re:Delete it & forget about it

[bmcage]

This is Germany, Europe, you cannot be forced to buy something, you have the right to return goods, ...

I'm in Belgium, if somebody sends you something, then asks you to or send money or send it back, you can instead keep it and not send money. Equal laws exist for internet shopping.

On a sidenote, you can get azureus in Italy with some commercial shops in it luring you to buy download stuff there, and it was the top hit in google. I use linux and OSS since last century and was fooled in installing it for a friend (on windows of course, no apt-get). These things can look really legitimate. Let's hope the 'vote it down' possibility added to google makes these sites less prominent.

Re:Delete it & forget about it

[mabhatter654]

There's no problem with selling Open source software... I've even run into boxes of repackaged OpenOffice at the grocery and office supply stores in the US. But that's the point, you get to buy a box and you know what you're paying up front unlike this story.

This story is really about German law allowing all sorts of scammers. They are one of the countries that allows all sorts of junk in EULAs as "binding contracts" over and above even the US. And don't they also have those "identity" laws that make using fake names/info for online registration and actual crime? As well as the forbidding of anonymous email addresses and such. Combine the two and you have the perfect storm where people can "purchase" things just by going to sites... even though their consumer retail laws are quite the opposite.

Re:Delete it & forget about it

[Niedi]

Not quite. It is a crime to use your fake name and such, but unless the cost is stated very clearly on the page (and not just in line XYZ of the EULA or something like that) it counts as an attempt to mislead the customer, or as the heading said, tricking him into buying.

There have been a lot of sites like this (IQ test, friendship test blabla) and in pretty much all cases the court told them to shove it... The point is, those who run the sites know it and will most certainly never go to court.
If you want to get rid of them real quick have a lawyer answer the mail for you. Or go to the "Verbraucherzentrale", they will tell you what to write.

So it ain't THAT bad.

Re:Delete it & forget about it

[martin-boundary]

You young whippersnippers! I use Linux since the last millenium!

What's the German Word for "Boned?"

[eldavojohn]

Shouldn't Sun change the license of OpenOffice.org to protect their fans or are they doing this to protect someone else?

First of all, it's the general public that doesn't understand open source that need protection--highly unlikely a 'fan' would buy OpenOffice.org or even download it from a third party.

Second, your friend is boned.

Does the GPL allow me to sell copies of the program for money?

Yes, the GPL allows everyone to do this. The right to sell copies is part of the definition of free software. Except in one special situation, there is no limit on what price you can charge. (The one exception is the required written offer to provide source code that must accompany binary-only release.)

Unless she downloaded it without being notified upfront of the cost, she ain't going to win this one. If they even host a binary distribution from their site they can claim the bandwidth you used was worth whatever you have to pay. If they aren't also offering you the source code or haven't given it to you of that distribution, you could maybe send the EFF after them and try to escape via that route ... although I've seen lawyers work their magic & you could still end up paying.

Third, they aren't going to limit or restrict selling their software because this could turn into a scary thing for companies. I write proprietary software for my job. I use code licensed as open source. I make available the source to my customer and they pay my company quite well so that we can adopt and add to that code to specifically suite their needs. It's fairly close to 'software as a service.' Now, assuming I used some library (I can't think of anything off of OO.o that I would use) but my company's law-talkin' guys would be scared as hell if it said I couldn't charge money for it ... because maybe it's an integral part of our product?

Do your friend a favor: sit down with her and talk with her. Explain to her that not every piece of software requires you pay out your ass to use it. In the United States, I would call the Better Business Bureau and let them know about this company you speak of. I don't know a lot about your rights or organizations that will help you in Germany but I wish you the best of luck.

Bottom line: For the sake of and proliferation of open source, please don't argue for a fork of the GPL or even for stipulations on charging to be worked into it.

Re:What's the German Word for "Boned?"

[Asic Eng]

Here is a video showing what likely happened in this case: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ3Ygaemm5c

Just because it's legal for someone to demand money (selling free software is certainly allowed in Germany), doesn't mean you have to pay what they demand. A payment demand hidden in a EULA or AGB (Allgemeine Geschäftsbedingungen) does not mean you've entered a legally binding contract when you clicked on "download". That doesn't mean the scammer is violating the law, unfortunately - but neither do you have to pay.

In general the way to deal with these sites is this: do not react on them contacting you - an IP number and data entered into a web form is not enough for them to get their claim accepted by the court. However if you do respond and admit you downloaded from their site, then they have some more ammunition - not enough, but don't give it to them, anyway. For the IP number to be correlated to your address, they need a German judge to issue an order to your IP provider. Of course the judge won't don't that - these scammers have tried to get orders like that many times, and they've always been unsuccessful. Scammers are not very popular, judges usually don't go out of their way to help them.

So don't communicate with the scammers - wait for the court order (gerichtlicher Mahnbescheid), if they bother to go that far. Once you get the order, tell the court you object. That's it, it doesn't go further than that.

On youtube check out katzenjens, he made a few videos on the matter: http://www.katzenjens.de/abzockinfos.html (German language, only). Here is a good one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbZzRJm-3_4&feature=channel

Easy solution

[Ethanol-fueled]

Submitter: your friend should just stick it to the man and pirate it from Bittorrent. That'll teach those money-grubbing bastards!

Re:Easy solution

[morgan_greywolf]

whoooooosh.

If it's legal...

[PCM2]

Well, if as you say it's legal in your jurisdiction, then it sounds like yes, she should pay, unless she wants to risk damage to her credit.

Maybe for this reason everybody should get into the habit of calling it OpenOffice.org. That's the name of the software. Not OpenOffice. OpenOffice.org. So where do you get it? OpenOffice.org. What's the cost? Find out at OpenOffice.org. What's the latest version? OpenOffice.org will tell you. Et cetera.

The website

[Anonymous Coward]

Man.. if only there was an easy way to remember what the website is to download OpenOffice.org...

Allowed not only in Germany

[zzyzyx]

Selling (L)GPLed software is authorized by the license (and even encouraged apparently). See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html

However in your case the price was probably not apparent at the time of sale (or else you would'nt complain now I assume), and thus the sale is illegal under European law. So don't pay.

Cost in the EULA?

[faloi]

Is it a typical EULA that was scene during the install of the product? Can't your friend state that she read the EULA, disagreed with the terms and is, in effect, returning the software (deleting it). Delete it, get a fresh copy (just in case the company in question modified some of it before passing it along), and use that instead.

Re:Erm?

[amliebsch]

My best guess is she went to openoffice.com, and clicked the link to download OpenOffice there.

It takes you to a website that does indeed let you download OpenOffice.org - but you have to sign up to be a member of their download service first.

So she didn't actually get charged for OOo, she got charged for the privilege of being in their SOOPER-DOWNLOADERZ club. Sleazy, but caveat emptor.

Do this, and do it *FAST*

[getuid()]

1) Go see a good lawyer.

2) After having consulted with the lawyer, "return" the software. Delete it or similar...


The point is that german law requires everybody who sells anything on-line to take back the merchandise on the request of the customer within 2 weeks. It's a kind of a safety net against exactly this kind of scams.

Now I don't exactly know how "returning" would translate for software, but that's exactly she needs to talk to a lawyer about, and she needs to do that *fast*, in order to be able to answer before the two-weeks-deadline passes.

However, I wouldn't respond to the e-mail of the scamers directly. Someone here on /. already suggested that without having an address/card ID from her, they don't have any means to prove that it was actually her who downloaded and installed the copy. And without proof, they can pretty much kiss your/her ass...

If they try to scare her off, in Germany she even has the possibility to file a negative clearifying charge (it's called "negative Feststellungsklage", I don't know the exact english legal construct for this). The charge is aimed at clearifying in front of the law whether she is or is not guilty of whatever they will try to accuse her. The nice thing about this charge is that it's her call, not theirs. So they *need* to prove that they have a valid case, or else they loose. If they loose, they pay (up to several thounsands of euros). It's another protection gimmick of the german law system against scamers :-)

Re:What if she doesn't want to break the law?

[jandrese]

Then she should return it. If they don't take returns, my guess is that the company will run afoul of German consumer protection laws.

Also, despite what companies and lawyers what to make you think, EULAs (and most contracts) are not "law". You won't be brought up on criminal charges if you break it. EULAs are a civil matter, so the company would have to sue her, and if she brought her story into court there's a very good chance (no guarantees, I am not a Lawyer, etc...) that the court would rule in her favor. Note that some places have bad laws on the books that can elevate things like EULAs and corporate policy into criminal law, but that shouldn't apply here.

Sublicensing?

[FilterMapReduce]

From the summary, it seems like the software wasn't really sold though. They're trying to extract the money due to the user's agreement to a EULA, which (if that means in this context what it usually does) binds the user to some terms on the condition of using the copyrighted software. But, according to LGPL 2.1 (which is OOo's license):

8. You may not copy, modify, sublicense, link with, or distribute the Library except as expressly provided under this License. Any attempt otherwise to copy, modify, sublicense, link with, or distribute the Library is void, and will automatically terminate your rights under this License. However, parties who have received copies, or rights, from you under this License will not have their licenses terminated so long as such parties remain in full compliance. [emphasis added]

Selling a copy of the software—with an up-front price, like you said—would be one thing, but it appears that they are trying to impose a secondary license agreement (the EULA) on top of the LGPL that contractually binds the user to some payment after the fact. The license, and all other versions of the GPL and LGPL, forbid that outright. In fact, that company may now be forbidden from distributing OpenOffice.org to anyone at all, since they voided the entire license for themselves. (Not a lawyer.)