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Solution Against Cold Boot Attack In the Making

Bubba writes "I just discovered this blog: Frozen Cache. It describes a concept for preventing cold boot attacks by saving the encryption key in the CPU cache. It is claimed that by disabling the CPU cache the key will remain in cache and won't be written to memory. The blog says they're working on a proof-of-concept implementation for Linux. Could this really turn out to be a working solution?" Update: 01/19 20:26 GMT by KD : Jacob Appelbaum, one of the authors of the cold boot attack paper, wrote in with this comment: "It's not a solution. It simply seeks to make it more obscure but an attacker would certainly still be able to pull off the attack. From what is on that blog, there's still a full keyschedule in memory at this time. This is how we reconstruct the key, the redundant information in memory; it's not just the 128/256 bit key itself. For older methods, they needed the actual specific key bits but we don't need them because we recreate them. Basically, the CPU is acting as a ghetto crypto co-processer. Emphasis on ghetto. It's a nice suggestion but the devil is in the details and sadly the details in this case aren't really up to snuff. It's a bogus solution."

260 comments

  1. Freeze the CPU by despe666 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Good idea, until they figure out how to cold boot the CPU as well.

    1. Re:Freeze the CPU by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 3, Interesting

      why are you modded funny? is there any reason that the cpu memory cannot be attacked in a similar way to standard memory? The hardware you need to pull it off is probably a bit more obscure but is there a reason that you cant stick a cold CPU in a multicpu board and read its memory from a second CPU?

      --
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    2. Re:Freeze the CPU by msgmonkey · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Although marked as Funny, you could quite easily open the PC take out the BIOS ROM whilst the machine is running (the BIOS is shadowed in normal operation), stick a new custom one in that probes the cache and do a hard reset.

    3. Re:Freeze the CPU by msgmonkey · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Additionally this could also be used to get a near perfect dump of RAM too.

    4. Re:Freeze the CPU by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 0

      For some odd value of 'easily' :p

      Desoldering a chip whilst it's running sounds like fun..

    5. Re:Freeze the CPU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      "Most"(1) PC BIOSes are socketed for the very reason that they are nasty to replace otherwise, and it doesn't really affect the cost too much to do so.

      Pulling a socketed BIOS while a machine is running isn't all that difficult, especially to someone experienced in doing so. And even in the case that it's soldered down, you may be able to break the power connection to the one on the board and hotwire a second in on top of it (or on the bottom of the board if you're really good), deadbug-style.

      (1): "Most" in this case means "most of the billion odd machines on the planet"; some of the recent Chinese/Taiwanese econoboxen have soldered down BIOSes, but step up from the bare bottom to the next step and they're typically socketed again.

    6. Re:Freeze the CPU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which, as posted already is probably only a matter of hardware, and then you gain the additional advantage, that CPU-Cache is SRAM, and won't just disintegrate if you don't act fast enough.

      If you can get at a key in a huge swath of decying dram, then fetching it out of a minuscule amount of fixes sram should be trivial...

      If you want your key to be safe, just make sure to overvolt and overclock your RAM, that way the decay is much faster as well.

      (and opposed to disabling your cache, you gain performance ;) )

    7. Re:Freeze the CPU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      You need to understand that there are different types of RAM. The main memory, that of which you have gigabytes, is DRAM. CPU caches are SRAM.
      DRAM is, essentially, a tiny capacitor that is regularly recharged. If you cool it down, it doesn't lose its charge as fast, so you can read it even after power loss.
      SRAM works differently. The data is stored by a few transistors wired together in a way so they can maintain a specific set state even when the external input goes away. There are no capacitors involved here, so once the supply voltage drops, the data is lost.

    8. Re:Freeze the CPU by bperkins · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Most cache is implemented as a flop, which loses its state on power down almost immediately. I don't think it's possible.

    9. Re:Freeze the CPU by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

      Different kind of memory. Normal memory, DRAM, is more or less a capacitor and a transistor. You store the charge for the state in the capacitor. So that's the idea as to how you can get at it later. While they do discharge when power isn't applied, it is not linear, so some residual charge can still be picked up. Cache memory is SRAM. That's a combination of six (or more in some cases) transistors, no capacitor. So when power dies, there isn't any residual charge left.

      Not saying that maybe something couldn't be figured out, but it is a different kind of RAM so the same attack won't work.

    10. Re:Freeze the CPU by ion.simon.c · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Thus, if the attacker has physical access to your box, you're screwed!

    11. Re:Freeze the CPU by bperkins · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sorry, flop == flip-flop.

    12. Re:Freeze the CPU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Whoosh.

      GP meant a flip-flop, a very simple memory element.

    13. Re:Freeze the CPU by GXTi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      SRAM uses circuits that resemble a flip-flop, e.g. a latch, which would be what GPP was referring to. You are correct though that SRAM preserves state for some time after removing power, again especially at colder temperatures. However, I don't imagine it will be too much trouble, as getting a CPU to dump latent data from its cache after a power cycle is probably quite difficult -- it's small enough and fast enough that I would be surprised if the CPU didn't just zero the entire thing on boot. Certainly you wouldn't be able to get it back out the same way it went in as retrieving cache lines that are not really there would be a bug.

    14. Re:Freeze the CPU by djtack · · Score: 1

      No, not a floating point operation. The 6-transistor SRAM cell you describe is commonly called a flip-flop. According to this paper, SRAM retains data only for a fraction of a second at room temperature, but apparently can be extended to seconds or minutes by freezing.

    15. Re:Freeze the CPU by Dachannien · · Score: 1

      I think he means flip-flops.

    16. Re:Freeze the CPU by SlashWombat · · Score: 4, Informative

      Carefully repowering SRAM can maintain the contents. I have seen SRAM come up with essentially 99% of the contents still intact after the SRAM had been powered down for over a week. I guess that once powered up, the SRAM has a preference to come back the way it was before powerdown.

      Or perhaps the slight residual voltage kept the SRAM contents intact. (Even though it was probably less than one tenth of a volt.) SRAM draws very little current when the voltages are reduced. Thus the power rails can maintain some small voltage for a very long time. .

    17. Re:Freeze the CPU by Alsee · · Score: 1

      if the attacker has physical access to your box, you're screwed!

      Yeah... especially if you're the RIAA/MPAA and the "attacker" is the owner having physical access to his own box.

      I love these stories on physical-access attacks. They are great techniques for an owner to get around hostile Trusted Computing on his own computer. Cold-boot or warm-boot your own computer and read your data and your keys out of your RAM, even when Trusted Computing tries to deny you this sort of access to your own keys and data.

      -

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    18. Re:Freeze the CPU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sparky sparky!

    19. Re:Freeze the CPU by lysergic.acid · · Score: 1

      i thought CPU caches were mostly implemented through SRAM, which does possess a certain level of data remanence.

      otherwise, there's always rubber-hose cryptanalysis.

    20. Re:Freeze the CPU by RedWizzard · · Score: 1, Informative

      "Most"(1) PC BIOSes are socketed for the very reason that they are nasty to replace otherwise, and it doesn't really affect the cost too much to do so.

      That's the case for desktops but not for laptops.

    21. Re:Freeze the CPU by sparcnut · · Score: 1, Interesting

      SRAM also has parasitic capacitances within each cell, which could act enough like DRAM to enable it to hold some data without power. The DRAM capacitors are essentially parasitics as well, so don't disregard the parasitic capacitance in an SRAM cell as completely insignificant.

      --
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    22. Re:Freeze the CPU by bperkins · · Score: 1

      An SRAM cell is typically a cross coupled inverter (from what I've seen). There's not much potential for memory there. When the power supply reaches zero, the bit is gone.

      With DRAM that's not quite the case, which is why the cold boot attack works. Even though the power supply is zero, the bit is still there on the cap.

    23. Re:Freeze the CPU by KibibyteBrain · · Score: 3, Informative

      Transistors, especially MOSFETs are quite capacitive by nature of functioning by P-N junctions. MOSFETS have fairly considerable gate capacitance due to the fact that the gate is insulated by a layer of gate oxide, forming a quite apparent capacitor. This is indeed why your computer has a clock speed limit, it takes time to charge up these capacitors due to an RC time constant.

    24. Re:Freeze the CPU by Zan+Lynx · · Score: 3, Informative

      Except that real "trusted computing" using a TPM chip doesn't store the key in the CPU or in RAM, it is stored in the TPM.

    25. Re:Freeze the CPU by lsatenstein · · Score: 0

      Simpler solution. All recent CPU's have a microcode option. This option allows you to replace certain instructions with others (repairs after a boot and before a use). You can presumably change instructions from privileged to non-privileged, and become a skilled virus creator, or you can invent new instructions. The new ones could dump cache.

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    26. Re:Freeze the CPU by SteelFist · · Score: 5, Funny

      You mean like the sandals? Now I'm really confused...

    27. Re:Freeze the CPU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really most? I don't think I've seen a socketed BIOS since my 80286.

    28. Re:Freeze the CPU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, I confused it with that flip-flopper John Kerry, or a 7476 J/K Flip-Flop, as it were.

    29. Re:Freeze the CPU by w0mprat · · Score: 1

      Why bother dropping in a custom BIOS chip? Many mainboard bioses can be flashed via software from within a running operating system. Once you've written to the ROM you then need your code to force a reboot. On the next boot your bios code runs with disabled cache and does the cache dump. (Heck RAM too while you're at it). Interestingly the original bios could be restored leaving the machine functional.

      I imagine what prevents this kind of attack being useful is the limitation to a specific make and model of the motherboard at a time. This is why there isn't a plethora of viruses bricking expensive hardware by attacking the BIOS ROM. But I've often wondered if there is some sloppiness to be exploited -- I wouldn't be surprised the instructions to write to the BIOS flash memory are probably identical across a range of boards from one manufacturer. It certainly is the case with graphics adapters. A simple software tool can flash the bios of any ATI/NVidia graphics chipset (and interestingly the graphics bios is always initialized first before POST.. hmm... idea) In any event, you'd need to reverse engineer the mainboard bios flash software as [one hopes] the manufacturers don't hand out that kind of information.

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    30. Re:Freeze the CPU by MadnessASAP · · Score: 1

      The only thing with SRAM is that when its powered on it'll flip to one of its states and supposedly (Ive never tested this out myself) it will be biased to the state it had when it was powered off. Of course the effect that causes this bias is so small that any fluctuation will get rid of it and leave you with random data. I figure the simplest way to be sure is too simply add a bit of logic to the CPU initialization that wipes the caches the moment power is applied.

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    31. Re:Freeze the CPU by wik · · Score: 1

      This initialization is called BIST (built-in self test) and it has been a standard feature on processors since caches were introduced.

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    32. Re:Freeze the CPU by learningtree · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Carefully repowering SRAM can maintain the contents. I have seen SRAM come up with essentially 99% of the contents still intact after the SRAM had been powered down for over a week. I guess that once powered up, the SRAM has a preference to come back the way it was before powerdown. Or perhaps the slight residual voltage kept the SRAM contents intact. (Even though it was probably less than one tenth of a volt.) SRAM draws very little current when the voltages are reduced. Thus the power rails can maintain some small voltage for a very long time. .

      I would really like to see any citation to support your point. If true, this is really an interesting concept.

    33. Re:Freeze the CPU by cnettel · · Score: 1

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIH

      Note, though, that some (all?) motherboards these days tend to have a tiny region that's either ROM or not normally flashed for recovery if the checksum doesn't match up. You might need to flash that as well, or just go along fooling it with a proper checksum (I don't think they employ any real signing.)

    34. Re:Freeze the CPU by MadnessASAP · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well fuck me in the ass and call me Sally, why the hell are we discussing this then?

      --
      I may agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to face the consequences of saying it.
    35. Re:Freeze the CPU by Henkc · · Score: 1

      I had to do this once to reset a flash-screwed BIOS... scary as hell prying out a good chip on a running machine, then carefully inserting a buggered one back in, reflashing, etc.

      Desperate measures, etc. Scary as hell, but it can be done. I didn't believe it could be done until I tried it.

    36. Re:Freeze the CPU by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Well fuck me in the ass and call me Sally, why the hell are we discussing this then?

      Because, Sally, some acne-ridden children of the 1990s hold the opinion that people who existed pre-1990s are incapable of designing systems properly.

      Now shut the fuck up and grease yourself. For the object of this exercise, I'm going to call you "Roger, the cabin boy" ; is that OK Sally?

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    37. Re:Freeze the CPU by SunTzuWarmaster · · Score: 1

      ...which cannot be attacked. Ever.

      Unless you can end your sentence in that, there is a workaround.

      Most of the time, that sentence ends in "...which cannot be attacked, unless ..., but that would be so difficult so as not to be worth it." The shocking thing here is that the technology will get cheaper and the reason to workaround it will grow.

    38. Re:Freeze the CPU by Sven+Tuerpe · · Score: 2, Informative

      Except that real "trusted computing" using a TPM chip doesn't store the key in the CPU or in RAM, it is stored in the TPM.

      This is a dangerous belief. It is true that some keys remain inside the TPM, at least as long as the chip is being accessed only through its wire interface. However, the TPM ist not suitable for bulk encryption. Applications therefore typically use the TPM only to store keys, which are extracted to memory when needed.

      --
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    39. Re:Freeze the CPU by Bazer · · Score: 1

      DRAM does use a transistor's parasitic capacitance to hold the state. It isn't entirely unlikely that the same parasitic capacitance would hold the state in an SRAM.

    40. Re:Freeze the CPU by Asic+Eng · · Score: 1

      Some mainboards support intrusion detection. If you want to make use of that, you need to include the mechanics of your case in you security concept, though.

    41. Re:Freeze the CPU by Oktober+Sunset · · Score: 1

      I thought we were talking about boots.

    42. Re:Freeze the CPU by Alsee · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Trusted Computing is built on an entire tree of keys. You're right that the master pair of keys (PrivEK and RSK) never leave the chip. You're right that reading RAM will not give you a simple full crack of the Trust system on your computer. However by reading RAM you can snatch the lower levels keys peicemeal, and you can read out decrypted files piecemeal. For example you play some DRM music and do a RAM grab. If you're lucky that RAM grab will give you the key to decrypt all of the DRM music files on your computer, or if your less lucky you may just get the decrypted version of the particular song you were playing at the time.

      Actually I have been collecting notes on some more powerful more promising attacks on Trusted Computing, but this RAM technique is certainly nice and easy addition to the anti-TrustedComputing toolbox.

      -

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    43. Re:Freeze the CPU by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      This is a retarded conversation anyway because a) you are pretty generally considered to be fucked if you can't control physical access and b) you can reflash the BIOS through LPC or JTAG on practically everything. That's how laptop manufacturers recover your system if you blow the BIOS flash, it's not like they throw away a motherboard because you blew a reflash.

      --
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    44. Re:Freeze the CPU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, you managed to shave 99% off of 23452798 years to decrypt my porn storage.
      You'll still need to try and brute force your way through the remaining 1%, and that'll still take long enough that it's not feasible.

    45. Re:Freeze the CPU by Haley's+Comet · · Score: 1

      Nothing to see here, move along. The Xbox 360 already (circa 2005) by using e-fuses. Don't believe me? Watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxjpmc8ZIxM and try to imagine not being able to remove Windows.

      Scaaaaaary shit, huh?

      --
      The Illuminati would kill me, but I'm not rich enough to take notice of.
    46. Re:Freeze the CPU by nicodoggie · · Score: 1

      Don't you see!? The attacker has easy physical access to your computer! Every airport you go to, every checkpoint you pass by!

      Chances are, if you make any wrong moves, they physically screw you, too

    47. Re:Freeze the CPU by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Yeah, while the latches might actually come up the way they were before (1), it doesn't appear that there would be any way to that information, considering the CPU is almost certainly going to wipe it as one of the first things it does on starting up, even before it touched the BIOS or any external instructions.

      Otherwise would first look in the cache for said external instruction, and if the cache was nonsense it would crash.

      No, it has to clear it as part of 'internal BIOS' or whatever it's called, the tiny set of instructions that run before the CPU talks to anyone at all, even the actual BIOS, that set things like processor states and stuff, and then finally runs the BIOS.

      And, obviously, it would not be possible to dismantle a CPU fast enough to recover the cache.

      1) Has there been any testing on that? When I built them using gigantic AND and OR gates in high school, they'd always come up the same way when powered on, in a random pattern that I assumed had to do with the length of wiring and whatnot.

      That experience probably doesn't carry over to semiconductors, but I was under the impression that latches tended to come up random.

      --
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    48. Re:Freeze the CPU by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      The CPU resets the cache before it reads the BIOS' instructions. It has to, because when it accesses the BIOS, like it does when accessing any memory location, it checks the cache first.

      Also, while you could logically remove the BIOS from a running computer (After all, you can flash it, and that's the same thing.), you could not safely physically do that, as you'd almost certainly cause some sort of power glitch.

      --
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    49. Re:Freeze the CPU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would be very surprise of such behavior, this contradicts completely the use of SRAM as PUF (Physically Unclonable Functions): a SRAM has a very strong tendency to always startup with roughly the same "random" status. Random but constantly coming back -> PUF!
      So a SRAM doesn't have any tendency at all to remember its previous state, at best the burn-in effect is just opposite.

    50. Re:Freeze the CPU by Arterion · · Score: 1

      I have had to do this before. Flashing a new BIOS failed once, and the computer wouldn't boot. I had to have Asus mail me a chip flashed correctly.

      In order to create myself a "backup" incase it ever happened again on that board, I booted using the chip Asus sent me, popped it out, put the mis-flashed one back in while the computer was running, and reflashed it.

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
    51. Re:Freeze the CPU by sowth · · Score: 1

      I want to know if such techniques could be used to run your own program or your own OS of your choice on your box when the time comes "trusted computing" is used to lock down many computers. After all, Microsoft locked down the Xbox, how long until they and the entertainment industry convince some computer manufacturers to create a locked down "multimedia PC" or cellphone or other devices?

      Look around, it is probably already happening. Yes, people have cracked the Xbox to run Linux, but that doesn't always mean they will be able to do the same for new machines.

    52. Re:Freeze the CPU by Alsee · · Score: 1

      I want to know if such techniques could be used to run your own program or your own OS of your choice on your box when the time comes "trusted computing" is used to lock down many computers.

      I nearly wrote the wrong answer to you. I think I just spotted a myth/misunderstanding hiding behind your question and I have to clear that up before I give the answer I was going to give.

      Trusted Computing is unbelievably insidious. If a big ugly monster with fangs and claws walks up to your front door, no one is going to let him in. If a computer can't run your own program or your own OS, no one is going to buy it.

      Trusted Computing pulls an impressive trick. It is so evil and so insidious that there is absolutely no rational reason NOT to buy a Trusted Computer. The monster at your front door is so evil and insidious that you are literally by all objective measures BETTER OFF if you do let him in the front door.

      A Trusted Computer can do anything and everything a normal computer can do, and more.
      A Trusted Computer can run any software a normal computer can run, and more.

      A Trusted Computer is like a computer with speakers, and a normal computer has no speakers. You go into buy a new computer and they hand you a Trusted Computer - you don't want speakers but that doesn't matter. You may as well take the Trusted Computer home and just never turn the speakers on. A computer with speakers can do anything and everything a speakerless computer can do, and more. If the Trusted Computer is the same price or less, there is no reason not to take the computer with speakers and then just ignore them

      The trick is that Trusted Computers have extra bonus abilities. If you choose, you can turn on the Trust system and you can do extra new stuff and you can run extra new software. The catch is, the new mode is hand-cuff mode. You can view the new Trusted Files, but only if you voluntarily choose to put handcuffs on yourself first. You can run the new Trusted software, but only if you voluntarily choose to put handcuffs on yourself first. You can read the new Trusted email, you an view the new Trusted websites, you can play the new Trusted games, you can use the new Trusted internet protocols, but only if you voluntarily choose to put handcuffs on yourself first.

      It's all "voluntary" and "opt-in". If you don't volunteer for handcuffs, if you don't opt in, then you can't read any of the new Trusted files, can't read the new Trusted email, can't run any of the new Trusted software, can't view any of the new Trusted websites, you can't connect to any of the new Trusted web servers. Other computers running Trusted applications will drop your internet connections if you try to connect to them.

      If you have a Trusted Computer you have two options. Option one, you can leave the Trust system off and you can do everything and anything a normal computer can do - and you're locked out of everything new. Option two, you turn on the handcuffs and everything works - all the old files still work in the old programs, and all the new stuff works in uber-DRM mode.

      If you have a normal computer you have no choices. Your old software and old files work, but you are locked out of everything new.

      If you have an old normal computer, or if you do not "voluntarily" opt-in, then you get increasingly screwed as you are locked out of more and more new stuff.

      And they have something called Trusted Network Connect. Right now it is targeted at business use, but in a decade or somesuch ISPs could potentially start using it. And what it does is a Trusted scan of your computer - they call it a "health check" - and they advertise it as a check to make sure you're not infected with a virus or trojan, to make sure you have the latest system patches to ensure you aren't vulnerable to viruses and trojans, and maybe to make sure you're running an up to date firewall and virus scanner. In order to even run this "health check" you must first be in Trusted mode. If you haven't voluntarily put the handcuffs on, the

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  2. Great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Man I've been waiting for this! Lately the risk of a cold boot attack has really scared me, it's to the point where I don't even turn my computer on anymore!

  3. Owned by Slashdot link protection by gcnaddict · · Score: 1

    I love it when Slashdot automatically rips open a troll post.

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    1. Re:Owned by Slashdot link protection by WitheringtonSmythe · · Score: 1

      Please don't use the term 'ripped open' in reference to that link.

    2. Re:Owned by Slashdot link protection by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i lol'ed

    3. Re:Owned by Slashdot link protection by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right, it's done like, this

  4. "general purpose?" by nathan.fulton · · Score: 1

    According to the blog, the Proof of Concept would work on "most" x86 architectures.

    To someone who knows more about the down-and-dirties: will this approach work on non-X86 systems?

    1. Re:"general purpose?" by Improv · · Score: 1

      It depends on the architecture, of course.

      --
      For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
    2. Re:"general purpose?" by LiENUS · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The Hitachi Super-H 4 processor (used in the Dreamcast among other things but I believe now as dead as the Dreamcast is). Supported a mode where you could disable half of the cache and use it as general purpose RAM.

    3. Re:"general purpose?" by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

      Depends. It wouldn't work on any architecture that doesn't do caching, of course. Don't know that there are any of those, but if there are, well then they are out. Also won't work on any architecture that you can't control the caching on. If it always caches memory and you can't mess with how, the trick won't work. I would guess it would work on most architectures out there, but I don't know.

    4. Re:"general purpose?" by ishobo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It is still alive, with its sibling the SH-5, for the embedded market. Its core is licensed in the same way as ARM and MIPS.

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    5. Re:"general purpose?" by LiENUS · · Score: 1

      I thought it had died off with windows mobile for the sh series being killed, cool to hear its still alive.

    6. Re:"general purpose?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have never understood posts like this. Two obvious statements, two "don't knows" and a "guess".

      It is really not important or interesting to anyone that you don't know something. Please post if it adds something to the discussion, otherwise just comment in your head.

    7. Re:"general purpose?" by FourthAge · · Score: 1

      The approach would actually be much better on non-X86 systems, which usually give you more control of the cache.

      On X86 (correct me if I'm wrong...) the only thing you can do is turn the cache on or off. That's it. No separate control of instruction or data cache, no way to lock cache lines in place, no way to say "this range of addresses doesn't use the cache".

      On ARM and PowerPC, all of these cache control features have been standard for a decade or more.

      This approach is working around the absence of these features on X86. Conventional wisdom is that cache control is only important on embedded systems, but this isn't true - if you're writing high performance code, you want to be able to tell the machine about how memory is used. Sometimes you don't want a memory access to go through the cache (e.g. if you're using a variable once). Sometimes you want to be certain that the cache will be used, as in this case. On X86, this can't be done.

      --
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    8. Re:"general purpose?" by jibjibjib · · Score: 1

      no way to say "this range of addresses doesn't use the cache".

      It is possible to do that (and other things) using MTRRs or PATs.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_Attribute_Table

    9. Re:"general purpose?" by CompMD · · Score: 1

      Because I use an abacus to do all my computation, I am impervious to any attempts of unauth!@$#%(&^HACKED BY CHINESE

    10. Re:"general purpose?" by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Hopefully, by 'you' in that paragraph, you usually mean 'the compiler'. People shouldn't be keeping memory locations out of the cache any more than they should be assigning them to registers, that's work for the compiler. You'll just get in its way.

      I know that's almost certainly what you mean, I just thought I'd mention it for all the people who might read your post and start thinking this is something that programmers should worry about.

      Although obviously encryption programmers have to worry about it to some extent, as they don't want their keys thrown around more than they have to be.

      And, incidentally, I'm always amazed at how crappy the x86 instruction set is. Although jibjibjib is right, you can use MTRRs to stop the cache, and the new PATs are apparently the same things per-page. What x86 doesn't have, however, is any method to read or write to or from the cache independent of memory. You can mark segments of memory as uncachable, or write-thru, or whatever, but you can't mark them 'cache only', nor is there any way to access the cache outside of memory access.

      Which is where, apparently, this 'freezing' trick comes in, which does it backwards by writing the data you want in the cache to memory, freezing the cache, and then erasing it from memory.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    11. Re:"general purpose?" by FourthAge · · Score: 1

      Good point. Indeed, I do mean the compiler. This is something that the automatic optimiser could do. Although I would want to be able to give the compiler a hint about how things should be done for extremely rare cases where (1) the automatic system doesn't work and (2) performance really matters.

      It is also useful to hear about the MTRRs and PATs. The Slashdot approach to research: if you don't know how to do something, just post that "it can't be done" and wait for a correction :).

      --
      The tao of democracy: the government you can vote for is not the real government.
  5. a hack on a hack by freddy_dreddy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    FTA: "Disabling/freezing" the CPU's cache severely degrades the performance. However, this seems acceptable if one considers that this special mode only needs to be set whenever the screen is locked (all efforts are pretty much worthless if an unlocked laptop is stolen).
    br/>Sounds like a tiny back door fix with a hell of a cat flap in it.

    --
    "Violence is the last refuge of the competent, and, generally, the first refuge of the incompetent" - Thing_1
    1. Re:a hack on a hack by mrmeval · · Score: 1

      If the laptop is unlocked you just copy the drive to some other device. That's been the gaping hole in every OS back to the abacus.

      If you want to fix that have some sort of longer range proximity card that locks or otherwise shuts off access when the user is not present.

      Considering that most /.ers mold their butts to a chair put a switch in it to detect said butt.

      --
      I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
    2. Re:a hack on a hack by kmahan · · Score: 1

      Why not just store it in a couple of locked cache lines?

      --
      Invalid Checksum. Retrying.
    3. Re:a hack on a hack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I wondered about performance, too... Not sure if it is really practical to enable and disable CPU cash like that, I'll have to ask my hardware gurus for that...

    4. Re:a hack on a hack by Thinboy00 · · Score: 1

      If the laptop is unlocked you just copy the drive to some other device. That's been the gaping hole in every OS back to the analytical engine.

      There, fixed it for you (the first software was not written for the abacus but for the analytical engine. That said engine was never in fact built (until the 20th century) is entirely beside the point. The abacus is not and was never Turing complete.)

      --
      $ make available
    5. Re:a hack on a hack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I invite you to RTFA (or should I say RTFB since it's a blog). It's called "Frozen Cache" for some strange reason.

    6. Re:a hack on a hack by freddy_dreddy · · Score: 1

      There, fixed it for you (the first software was not written for the abacus but for the analytical engine. That said engine was never in fact built (until the 20th century) is entirely beside the point. The abacus is not and was never Turing complete.)

      Something which was never built yet was conceived is valid as Turing complete ?!?
      By that line of thought Udo von Aachen is more Turing complete than the analytical engine.

      --
      "Violence is the last refuge of the competent, and, generally, the first refuge of the incompetent" - Thing_1
    7. Re:a hack on a hack by adisakp · · Score: 1

      Disablying the cache is kinda dumb. What would be smarter is if you could "lock" a tiny portion of the cache (a couple pages) so it isn't swapped out and is then directly accessible as a virtual address to the CPU (with the prerequisite page protection). Then insure that the CPU clears the cache on initialization and that there is no easy way to access the cache without validating the memory page privileges for the accessing thread.

      There are many CPU's with directly addressable caches. They're common in video game development dating all the way back to the caches for the two coprocessors on the Atari Jaguar. There's also the ScratchPad RAM on the PS2 and the VU0/VU1 memory areas. On the XBOX360, a portion of the L2 cache can be locked so it is directly addressable (even by the external GPU). On the PS3, the ram in the SPU's can be treated as a lockable cache (and there is a "secure" mode to run them securely for just such purposes).

    8. Re:a hack on a hack by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Something can't be more or less Turing complete. It either is or isn't.

      And all people are Turing complete, in that they can simulate a universal Turing machine. (Well, with external memory of some sort. So people plus a piece of a paper are Turing complete.)

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    9. Re:a hack on a hack by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Yes, there are plenty of CPUs and instruction sets that do not need this trick.

      However, 85% of home computers are, in fact, using the x86 instruction set. Arguing that there's a CPU that would have been better for this one application, vs. one that can actually run Windows and all their applications, is sorta stupid.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    10. Re:a hack on a hack by mrmeval · · Score: 1

      So abacus + person is Turing complete. I tend to forget about the meat ware.

      --
      I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
    11. Re:a hack on a hack by freddy_dreddy · · Score: 1

      you're correct.

      --
      "Violence is the last refuge of the competent, and, generally, the first refuge of the incompetent" - Thing_1
  6. Easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wouldn't it just be easier to set the BIOS to erase all of main memory to 0's during power-off (presumably on battery power if the power-cord is unplugged). That way no keys exist when the cold boot occurs

    1. Re:Easier by kcbanner · · Score: 1

      I think the shutdown consists of a hard off (power cut off), not an ACPI shutdown. The bios wouldn't have time to zero the memory. At least thats the way I understand it.

      --
      Obligatory blog plug: http://www.caseybanner.ca/
    2. Re:Easier by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      A capacitor inline to the memory controller could give it enough time to execute an emergency erase/scramble if the power fails. It's probably not that expensive to develop either.

    3. Re:Easier by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      Zeroing probably isn't the best idea. There will likely still be residues left over that allow you to distinguish what used to be a one and what used to be a zero.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    4. Re:Easier by ogl_codemonkey · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, but the benefit of a cold-boot attack is that the data is just there; you don't need to remove the DIMMs and read tiny electrical fields with special machinery; you just read the bytes.

      There is no CPU instruction for *any* architecture that will give you the voltage level of a memory cell.

    5. Re:Easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so im just going to rip the ram out, your turn.

    6. Re:Easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It takes a hell of a capacitor to do what you're saying. The time isn't short, and the power draw of the processor is rather huge. Probably not a workable solution under current technology.

    7. Re:Easier by shawb · · Score: 1

      Alternatively, you could go with a Bios mandated memory wipe on startup. It won't prevent the hack of physically removing the chip and placing in a special device, for that you would need each memory chip to automatically zero itself on power-on (Doing this on the SIMM level wouldn't help if the attacker is determined enough to crack open the case.) For your average user this would be cost prohibitive, but if security is truly an issue this could be implemented.

      It would probably require a specialized Bios and/or memory controller to run this ram as you would at least need to account for a pause while the memory clears itself. However, the time required for an embedded memory wipe would be smaller than a system executed memory wipe as you would theoretically not need to use standard communications channels to issue write commands to each bit.

      --
      I'll never make that mistake again, reading the experts' opinions. - Feynman
    8. Re:Easier by harlows_monkeys · · Score: 1

      I think the shutdown consists of a hard off (power cut off), not an ACPI shutdown. The bios wouldn't have time to zero the memory. At least thats the way I understand it.

      Wouldn't it only need to zero the memory that contains the key?

    9. Re:Easier by chill · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Memory wipe on case intrusion event.

      Back to you.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    10. Re:Easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Cut hole in case wall so your "intrusion switch" doesn't trip.

      Oh the fun cat and mouse game of security.

    11. Re:Easier by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Solder a tiny RAM chip onto the main board to store the keys. After all we are talking about storing keys, which really aren't very big, and with RAM so cheap it would add very little cost to add a single 32-64Mb RAM chip soldered directly to the mainboard. Hell if you wanted to get fancy you could add a little 32 bit embedded chip that is connected to the RAM and just does RNG and encryption. Depending on how good you write the algorithm you might be able to get by with 16bit, but little 32bit embedded chips are pretty cheap.

      To get the keys you would need to take apart the mainboard, manage to keep the RAM from being zeroed out(and with a small chip like that a capacitor could wipe it easily) unsolder it from the board, put it in another board and then retrieve the key. All while keeping the DRAM from losing charge. And if you use the little embedded 32bit crypto chip you would still have to break the encryption to make the key usable. Seems like it would be pretty damned difficult to me. And it wouldn't add much in the way of cost. Would probably be a great solution for business laptops.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    12. Re:Easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Use a metal case. Detect change in case geometry by changes in case capacitance and inductance as intrusion event.

    13. Re:Easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      thermite grenade with thermite lining of case walls.

    14. Re:Easier by GXTi · · Score: 1

      Solution: Don't make any enemies.

      Checkmate.

      Aww, but that's boring.

    15. Re:Easier by Tokerat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Scramble" circuitry within the DIMM itself, so that once it's pulled it triggers, independent of the mobo it was previously attached to.

      --
      CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
    16. Re:Easier by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      Yeah, then when your RAM fails, instead of a $25 DIMM you're replacing a $400 motherboard.

      Even a desktop board, this strikes me as a bad idea.
      Modular is good, for a number of reasons. Security may not be one of them, but there are other ways to deal with it than essentially making your computer a black box.

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    17. Re:Easier by Klaus_1250 · · Score: 1

      Solder a tiny RAM chip onto the main board to store the keys

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module

      --
      It only takes one man to change the Wisdom of the Crowd to Tyranny of the Masses.
    18. Re:Easier by Thinboy00 · · Score: 1

      What if <whoever made the computer> decides to fsck with you?

      --
      $ make available
    19. Re:Easier by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      If you're using full-disk encryption, turn off your computer when you'd not sitting at it. Hit the switch on the power strip if someone shows up at the door to seize your computer.

      An unsecured machine with an mounted encrypted disk compromises the security of the encrypted disk; in this case, "unsecured" includes situations where other parties can gain physical access to the machine.

    20. Re:Easier by bytesex · · Score: 1

      Great. Your CPU will reset when you touch the case. Or when the weather changes.

      --
      Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
    21. Re:Easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if $400 for a motherboard is an issue, why are you worrying about security? YOU obviously don't need that kind of security, but someone else might.

      look at crypto accelerators. these are boards that plug into PCI or PCIe sockets and are just a big blob of epoxy. and they cost a lot more than $400. these are designed like that so encryption keys can't be obtained by hot-"yanking" the device off the computer. these also have a killer circuit, so a battery will erase the keys on power loss.

      http://www.sun.com/products/networking/sslaccel/suncryptoaccel6000/index.xml

  7. Re:Write a summary that's useful, kthx. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The cold-boot attack was one of the biggest security news items last year. This is news for nerds, not news for idiots.

  8. Adds another layer to hardware solutions? by Zergwyn · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Or the converse, I suppose (hardware solutions can add another layer to this). This looks like some very interesting work, and may have more applicability in general beyond this one scenario. I'm certainly looking forward to following their implementation as it comes along. But with that said, if this attack was a serious concern for a given entity there seem to be some obvious potential hardware solutions. The attack essentially depends on being able to shutdown the computer but keep the memory cold enough that the randomization time is slowed down tremendously, giving enough time to perform a dump of the contents onto another system for further analysis. Therefore, it can be prevented by, for example, having electric heater units surrounding the memory connected to a dedicated capacitor bank and temperature sensor, as well as a sensor to detect if someone tries for force open the machine (intrusion alarm). Then the system can perform a scram shutdown (or if it is just shutdown normally), and the heaters can assure that the memory is kept hot for a couple of seconds afterwards even in the face of attempted cooling. It only needs to manage it very briefly and then all the contents are scrambled. Other similar methods (maybe a really micro EMP inside a shield memory space) would be possible to, but basically they just need to deny an attacker for a very short amount of time or ensure entropy in the RAM and then the attack is useless.

    Ultimately a dedicated hardware secure key store would be better and easier to integrate across all systems, and this more software solution of course has the massive advantage of being able to run for free on existing hardware. But the above could at least be retrofitted on nearly anything, and while it is more esoteric, then again so is the attack since it requires physical access.

    1. Re:Adds another layer to hardware solutions? by calmofthestorm · · Score: 1

      Good idea. If we can get the manufacturer promises there aren't any government backdoors, we'll be perfectly safe from any and all conceivable attacks.

      But I guess it is an improvement at least.

      --
      93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
    2. Re:Adds another layer to hardware solutions? by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      Actually, scrambling the whole RAM sounds like a good idea. The encryption key is probably not the only thing you want to keep a secret.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    3. Re:Adds another layer to hardware solutions? by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      I thought Slashdot was against the TPM chip? Last I read, it was supposed to be used for anti-piracy.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    4. Re:Adds another layer to hardware solutions? by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Yes, I don't want those pesky government backdoors. I prefer to have only the companies backdoors, thank you.

    5. Re:Adds another layer to hardware solutions? by calmofthestorm · · Score: 1

      Now now, I'm sure we can trust companies to act in good faith rather than self interest at the cost of morality and the interest of their customers. No need to be so cynical, Commie scum.

      --
      93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
    6. Re:Adds another layer to hardware solutions? by maztuhblastah · · Score: 1

      I would (if I were seriously worried about this sort of thing), do something like the following for a desktop unit:

      1) Get a thick case that can be locked.

      2) Get a "giant fuck-off padlock".

      3) Apply #2 to #3.

      4) Place the case somewhere somewhat distant from monitor and input devices. Ensure that case is in location that is very inconvenient to access.

      5) Wire up phase lines of the power supply directly to the RAM sockets, controllable by a switch. Also add a killswitch that cuts all power to the inside of the case.

      Now in the event that I see [MIBs/ninjas/other attacker] coming in time, I hit the killswitch. The machine powers off and (since it will take them a while to access the inside and get to a position where they can cool the chips, I'm relatively safe. The lock and thick case are more an insurance policy.)

      If my door gets kicked down, I hit the killswitch. Power supply nukes my RAM, destroying the chips. Not exactly subtle, and I'd definitely go to jail under RIPA, but if the alternative is a longer sentence it might be worth it. This provides an added bonus, as I hear that ninjas can't touch you (or your RAM chips) if you[/they] are on fire...

    7. Re:Adds another layer to hardware solutions? by PCMeister · · Score: 1

      Why would you have to rely on a manufacturer's promise?

      I'm sure that there a some great coders on /. and elsewhere that could contribute to the Coreboot Project (formerly known as LinuxBIOS) and add a simple function at the BIOS level to run some form of a RAM scrambling function before processing the poweroff command from the O/S.

      Just my $0.02...

    8. Re:Adds another layer to hardware solutions? by calmofthestorm · · Score: 1

      The linux kernel does (I believe, IANA Kernel Hacker) scramble the key storage at least on shutdown, but it is possible to interrupt the power to the system before the kernel can react.

      --
      93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
    9. Re:Adds another layer to hardware solutions? by Alsee · · Score: 1

      I thought Slashdot was against the TPM chip?

      The Slashdot community is made up of varied views on everything, but yes the majority here do object to the TPM.

      That said, the grandparent post did not mention the TPM. He described some features similar to the TPM, but that's kinda like saying a home security system is similar to a prison security system. Both might have bars on the windows, but they are fundamentally different designs. Designing a security system to protect and benefit the person living there (a home security system) involves fundamentally different design considerations than designing a security system to be secure against the person living there (a prison).

      The TPM is specifically designed to secure the computer against the owner. The TPM technical specification explicitly discusses how the system is designed to be secure against attack by a "rogue owner". The TPM is designed like a prison, not like a home security system. It is nonsensical to speak of a "rogue home owner" "attacking" his own home. The owner is by definition fully authorized and completely entitled to do anything he like with his own home. The TPM is not merely designed to keep attackers out, it is additionally designed to confine and control the owner of the computer, it is explicitly designed to treat the owner as the enemy, it is explicitly designed to lock the master key away from the owner, it is explicitly designed to prevent the owner from overriding his own security settings, and there are integrated design features and supplemental specifications for those in control of the system to revoke your TPM key and effectively brick the system if they ever detect that you have gained control over the security system locking down your computer. If they revoke the key to your TPM you are effectively locked out of the Trust system, and you have to go buy a whole new computer if you ever want to go online with the Trust system ever again.

      I would like to point out one thing.... if you build a prison, yes that prison is indeed going to be pretty secure at keeping attackers out. Yes, the Trusted Computing system does indeed offer various benefits for securing your computer for you.... securing your computer against remote attackers. A system designed to be secure even against the owner will of course be equally work against a non-owner attacker. But the fact that the TPM has some benefits FOR the owner does not alter the fact that it is first and foremost a prison designed to be secure against the owner.

      With trivial modification the TPM could be changed from prison technology into home security technology. With trivial modification you can retain ALL of the chip's capabilities to secure the computer FOR the owner while eliminating the owner-hostile aspects. If the owner were permitted to know his personal master key if he wanted it, then otherwise identical hardware would maintain identical capabilities to protect the owner, but by knowing his master key the owner would have the power to control and override his own security at will. If the owner knows his master key, then the computer can no longer be locked against the owner. An owner cannot be locked out of his own files if he knows his master key locking his computer.

      If you are forbidden to know your master key to your computer then the "security system" is actually security against you, it is security restraining and controlling you just as it restrains and controls any attacker.

      The proper response to Trusted Computing and the TPM is simple:
      I want my key. No key, no sale.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    10. Re:Adds another layer to hardware solutions? by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Warning label:

      This computer is secured by a nuclear bomb.
      RAM will be subject to entropy maximization.
      So will intruders.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    11. Re:Adds another layer to hardware solutions? by N1AK · · Score: 1

      Can I just ask why you would go to jail due to RIPA prosecution? I thought you had to disclose passwords/keys now, and I'm sure destroying evidence of a crime is itself a crime but I always thought you'd get away with it if you simply left an 'blank' box unless they already had proof it was evidence of criminal action.

    12. Re:Adds another layer to hardware solutions? by Sven+Tuerpe · · Score: 1

      I thought Slashdot was against the TPM chip? Last I read, it was supposed to be used for anti-piracy.

      Further down (or up?) the thread, Slashdot still is. But a TPM is not going to help you much here. The TPM is not supposed to do bulk encryption so it is typically used to restrict the release of a key to certain conditions. Which means that even with a TPM one will end up having the actual key somewhere in the RAM.

      --
      http://erichsieht.wordpress.com/category/english/
    13. Re:Adds another layer to hardware solutions? by Sven+Tuerpe · · Score: 1

      The attack essentially depends on being able to shutdown the computer but keep the memory cold enough that the randomization time is slowed down tremendously, giving enough time to perform a dump of the contents onto another system for further analysis.

      The attack is really extracting the encryption key from memory after gaining physical access to the machine. Cold boot, cool as it may be, is just one particular implementation of it. To effectively protect your system you should defend against the attack, not particular implementations.

      --
      http://erichsieht.wordpress.com/category/english/
    14. Re:Adds another layer to hardware solutions? by Sven+Tuerpe · · Score: 1

      The TPM is specifically designed to secure the computer against the owner.

      That's funny. They (the Trusted Computing community) keep telling me that the TPM and the technologies surrounding it were never designed to protect against physical attacks. It should be obvious that this is a bad choice when trying to secure a computer against the owner. Can you point me to a specific reference in the specification or other official matter regarding this design objective?

      --
      http://erichsieht.wordpress.com/category/english/
    15. Re:Adds another layer to hardware solutions? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The TPM is specifically designed to secure the computer against the owner.

      That really isn't true at all. The TPM is designed to be a trusted key store. The primary salable application has been to secure the computer against the owner because users do not generally care enough to invest in something like this - they do not have any kind of grasp on cryptography whatsoever.

      I am completely happy to have a TPM in my laptop. It does nothing to harm me. It can help me keep passwords secure. I don't trust the most critical ones to it anyway :)

      If they revoke the key to your TPM you are effectively locked out of the Trust system, and you have to go buy a whole new computer if you ever want to go online with the Trust system ever again.

      Locked out of the trust system? Go online with the Trust system? Does this actually mean anything? My TPM is used solely as a master key store to secure the security suite. I can use it to bypass Windows login security and log in with a fingerprint. And I can use it to store the key to my password store. I rely on physical security as my actual security since I don't consider Windows to be securable anyway (it does run nicely on my laptop, though, unlike Ubuntu.)

      Ultimately you need backups of anything important to you. Trusting the computer to restore your files on the basis of the TPM chip is no more or less stupid than trusting the computer to work when you need to get data from it. It's just not necessarily going to happen, and trusting that it will be so is foolish. Hedge your bets.

      As for DRM-encrypted media, that is an entirely different issue. The TPM does not really alter that issue one way or another, which is to say that if you consume it, you deserve what you get.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    16. Re:Adds another layer to hardware solutions? by hjf · · Score: 1

      why on poweroff??? it should be done on power ON! a cold boot attack works by pressing the RESET switch and booting off a USB stick or something. that, and epoxy your DIMMs and that's it.

    17. Re:Adds another layer to hardware solutions? by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      You may not find an explicit reference at any summary, but, except for a few details, every technology that gets out of the TC community is directed against local attacks. Why else do you think that there is no wire transmitting unencrypted data, for example? A remote attacker doesn't have access to your wires.

    18. Re:Adds another layer to hardware solutions? by Alsee · · Score: 1

      secure a computer against the owner. Can you point me to a specific reference in the specification or other official matter regarding this design objective?

      The entire TPM specification is filled with endless mandates that the owner must not be allowed to do X, must not be permitted allowed to access Y, must not be allowed to know his own keys/data Z. One example stands out in particular in TCPA Main TCG Architecture v1_1b.pdf on page 277 (page 267 by internal numbering) they explicitly discuss securing the system against attack by a "rogue owner". They explicitly refer to the owner as the enemy to be secured against.

      The Protection Profile PC Client Specific Trusted Platform Module TPM Family 1.2 pp0030b.pdf page 95 section FPT_PHP.3 Resistance to physical attack explicitly says a PC Trusted system "shall resist physical manipulation and physical probing", "responding such that SFRs [security functionality requirements] are enforced". Physical tampering explicitly includes physical attack. It makes no specific statements on how physical attack resistance shall be implemented. The same document page 109 section O.Tamper_Resistance "requires the TPM to be resistant against identified physical tampering by an hostile user against the TSF [trusted system framework] by responding automatically such that SFRs [security functionality requirements] are always enforced". Note that the TPM's standard fallback method for ensuring security requirements is by terminating operation, denying all access, or even wiping keys. No access means no security violation.

      There is a document called TPCPP - Trusted Platform Connection Protection Profile. The TPM specification says that the system is required to comply with the TPCPP. Based on the name of that document and the surrounding discussion, it strongly appears to be a physical security specification - the physical security of integrating the TPM with the motherboard system or other platform. Unfortunately I am unable to find this document on the Trusted Computing Group website, nor was I able to locate it with a few google searches. Very odd.

      One of the documents, I think somewhere in the TCPA Main TCG Architecture v1_1b.pdf, they specify a TPM storage system for signed digital certificates for the hardware manufacturers to specify what kinds and levels of physical security have been applied. They also mention their intent for manufacturers to compete with each other to offer higher and higher levels of physical security.

      And then there are multiple documents dedicated to the CA system, where the CA has the job of scanning your system and issuing certificates attesting to the logical and physical security conformance of your system. If they ever detect that your system is not compliant - meaning if you have successfully tampered with your computer - then they are required to revoke your system certificate. For practical purposes, they brick the Trust system of your computer. You then need to go out and buy a brand new PC with a brand new Trust chip on board.

      So final summary, yes the system is designed to be security against the owner, yes it is explicitly hostile and considers "rogue owner"s to be the enemy. Yes, they say there should be physical security. No, I have not been able to locate any specific mandates on how physical security shall be implemented. Yes, they explicitly have a system in place for manufacturers to specify types and levels of physical security that is present. Yes, they explicitly want manufacturers to compete for higher levels of security. Yes, they explicitly certify your compliance and level of physical security before you fully activate the system. Yes it will still be possible (difficult but possible) to succeed in physically attacking your system. They have a system and mandate in place to watch for such violations(*), with a mandate to revoke your system. So go ahead and physically override your computer, and then you can go buy an entire new PC when they revoke your syste

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    19. Re:Adds another layer to hardware solutions? by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      There's actually a way to do this completely legally. Attach the killswitch to the inside of your door such that if people break it down, it trips.

      Thanks to the government's increased reliance on no-knock warrants, they will break down your door while yelling 'police'.

      Meanwhile, you should yell back, as soon as you hear them, that breaking down the door will wipe your data...they won't believe you, but legally you've done all you need to do to cover yourself.

      It's not your fault if the police damage evidence, while you're standing there telling them to stop as soon as you realize what they're doing. In fact, if they charge you with something anyway, you can assert that there was evidence that would have cleared you, and they destroyed it over your objections.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    20. Re:Adds another layer to hardware solutions? by Alsee · · Score: 1

      My TPM is used solely as a master key store to secure the security suite.

      In other words you've got a handgrenade on your desk, but you solely use the handle as a bottle opener.

      Ooops, that should have been a car analogy. Chuckle.

      The TPM is designed to be a trusted key store.

      It's not merely a key store.

      It is a key store designed with the added capability to secure keys even against owner's access, and it is attached to a system to securely log your system state (secure even against the owner), and attached to a remote attestation system to securely communicate those keys and that system log with other systems over the internet (secure even against the owner).

      Locked out of the trust system? Go online with the Trust system? Does this actually mean anything?

      Yes, it does. You may have a TPM, but they have not finished implementing the Trust system. They have not yet really turned the Trust system on. For example no one is using remote attestation for anything yet, and they haven't set up any Certificate Authorities yet. You've got an incomplete handgrenade on your desk and you're using the handle as a bottle opener. Yeah, at the moment it's harmless. It's incomplete and most of it is lying unused.

      As for DRM-encrypted media, that is an entirely different issue. The TPM does not really alter that issue one way or another, which is to say that if you consume it, you deserve what you get.

      I need sleep, so I'm going to gloss over the inactive parts of the Trust systems and the short term reality issues and I'll just jump to to the ultimate capability of the system and, if they succeed in rolling it out, the long term game-over point. For a nice round number let's call it in maybe a decade from now. I don't know if they can actually pull it off, I seriously hope they can't, but they have a VERY real VERY credible path planned to head in this direction....

      Under the Trusted Computing system, internet access can be DRM'd. I don't merely mean the content and media on the internet, I mean the act of connecting to an ISP / connecting to the internet itself would be a DRM connection. "if you consume it, you deserve what you get" kinda becomes a problem when you're talking about "consuming" mere access to the 'net. And if that happens you have to fully activate and fully submit to the Trust system in order to get any internet access at all. A fully active handgrenade with the pin pulled.

      I'll try to post tomorrow or something, the explanations I skipped over. It would help if you post a note saying whether you know about Remote Attestation or Certificate Authorities or Platform Configuration Registers, or anything else about Trusted Computing.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    21. Re:Adds another layer to hardware solutions? by Sven+Tuerpe · · Score: 1

      So, how'd I do? :)

      Thanks a lot for the references.

      --
      http://erichsieht.wordpress.com/category/english/
  9. So was that the only copy of the key? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or could a stale copy still be in some dirty page in RAM left over from the key generation process.
    Confused...

  10. I don't understand... by Kindaian · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Wasn't the "secure computing" preached by Intel/MS and others a "secure" platform that would solve all the security issues?

    To me seams that it was only a farse to disguise DRM into everyones computers...

    And fail...

    1. Re:I don't understand... by Ian+Alexander · · Score: 1

      I think any security offered by TPM would be against remote exploits. The mantra I keep hearing is "all bets are off once an attacker has physical access" which makes sense.

    2. Re:I don't understand... by harlows_monkeys · · Score: 1

      Wasn't the "secure computing" preached by Intel/MS and others a "secure" platform that would solve all the security issues?

      No

      To me seams that it was only a farse to disguise DRM into everyones computers...

      And fail...

      No again. Here is some useful information on this from IBM.

    3. Re:I don't understand... by auric_dude · · Score: 1

      It looks like DRM is the first possible application of trusted computing and the first criticism of trusted computing but the what does http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Digital_rights_management know?

    4. Re:I don't understand... by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      Then explain why I cant have my private key to the TPM I may own?

      Or, who knows the proper private key to unlock any TPM?

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    5. Re:I don't understand... by Kickasso · · Score: 1

      A TPM is a piece of hardware that signs bits in the name of hardware manufacturer. It says "I am Dell (or HP or Asus) and I certify that this computer runs unmodified Windows 7 (or Red Hat Linux or Joe Schmoe's Little Distro)".

      If you're not Dell (or HP or Asus), why would you ever want to utter such a statement? Do you derive pleasure from lying to people? Seriously, if you could do that, this fact would destroy the genuine usefulness of TPM for people that do want to use it for whatever purpose.

      If all you want to say is "I'm Joe Schmoe and I certify that this computer runs unmodified Joe Schmoe's Little Distro", you can certainly do that, no TPM required. No one would trust such a statement but I gather it's OK.

    6. Re:I don't understand... by Alsee · · Score: 1

      I think any security offered by TPM would be against remote exploits.

      That's the public relations image they are pushing.

      I'm a programmer and I've read the technical specification from cover to cover, all 332 pages. It is designed like a prison "security system" (secure against the occupant), not like a home security system (secure for the occupant).

      Just to prove the point, in TCPA Main TCG Architecture v1_1b.pdf on page 277 of the pdf (page 267 by internal numbering) the spec explicitly explains how the system is designed to be secure against attack by a "rogue owner". It is nonsensical to refer to a home security system secured against attack by a "rogue home owner". No, the TPM system is designed to secure computers against owners, just like a prison is secured against attack by rogue inmates.

      A prison is indeed pretty well secure against outside attackers - it it is secure against the owner then it is equally secure against a hostile non-owner. But that does not diminish the fact that it is specifically a prison secured against the owner, and that they could have designed a legitimate security system secure for the owner without any of the anti-owner aspects. It is an anti-owner prison security system trying to hide under a pro-owner "home security system" public relations mask.

      They know a lot of people object to this anti-owner design, and they are well aware of how public criticism killed off their first attempt. Remember the Pentium CPU Serial Numbers issue from a few years ago? And all the public complaints and controversy? And how Intel had to drop it like a hot potato? Well, various Intel documents show that the CPU Serial Numbers was merely the first step in rolling out exactly this sort of system.

      They saw what a public relations disaster that was, even when it was merely CPU serial number without even any of the DRM or anti-owner security crap implemented yet. So they put together the Trusted Computing Platform Alliance, which morphed into the Trusted Computing Group. They formed a sweeping strategy to get almost the entire computer industry involved. They have spent tens or hundreds of millions of dollars to cloak and confuse all the negative aspects of the system and spent a fortune to spin Trusted Computing as sugar and spice and everything nice.

      They have wrapped the system up in so many layers of complexity and chocolate-coating and public relations half-truths that it is almost impossible to understand exactly what the system does do or doesn't do unless you are a programmer and you spend hours studying the design.

      There is one fundamental point they can't cover up or confuse:
      Under their system each computer is locked down under it's own a pair of security keys (the PrivEK and RSK keys), and the owner is absolutely forbidden to ever obtain or control his keys locking down his own computer.

      If you don't know the master keys locking your computer, then your computer is locked against you. You don't control your computer. You no longer truly own your computer. The Trusted Computing Group has the ultimate control and ultimate ownership. If they ever discover that you somehow have cracked open the security chip on your computer and obtained the master keys to control your computer, then they have a key revocation system. For all practical purposes they kill your keys and kill your chip, and you have to go buy an entire new computer with a new security chip with a new security code, a new computer that is secure against you. You could try to rip your master key out of this computer too, but again if they ever spot that you have increased control of your computer they'll just revoke that key too, and make you buy yet another new computer.

      The mantra I keep hearing is "all bets are off once an attacker has physical access" which makes sense.

      That mantra is essentially true, however have documented increasing levels of physical security. Increasing levels of tamper resistance and self-des

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    7. Re:I don't understand... by Alsee · · Score: 1

      A TPM is a piece of hardware that signs bits in the name of hardware manufacturer.

      If a hardware manufacturer wants to sign bits, they are welcome to do so.

      Once they sell some hardware to me, that hardware is my property. I have every right to melt my property into slag if I wish. I have every right to take a chainsaw to it in half and glue the pieces together sideways in a piece of abstract art. I also have every right unscrew MY computer and carefully rip open MY chips inside and read out MY keys. Simple basic property rights.

      My computer, my chip, and most significantly MY PrivEK and RSK keys.

      I have no need for the manufacturer's keys. They have those keys locked safely in their hardware at their manufacturing plant, and I don't need them. All I need is to read MY keys out of MY chip. I have every right to read them out if I wish.

      I then have my keys. Game over. The whole argument becomes pointless. Your Trusted Computing Remote Attestation completely falls apart, and all of your arguments fail. It doesn't matter why you wanted Trusted Computing, I have every right to read my keys out of my computer if I wish, it's over you lose. Arguing over it is pointless, and trying to wage a war over it is pointless and destructive.

      why would you ever want to utter such a statement? Do you derive pleasure from lying to people?

      Yes, sometimes.

      For example there have been a number of times people have put up poorly designed webservers. Sites that inadvertently/cluelessly serve incomplete or defective pages in response to certain browser user agent strings. Websites that display fine and work as intended if you "lie" and send a user agent string emulating the most common Internet Explorer user agent.

      It's my computer and it is perfectly legitimate to emulate my system for interoperability and other purposes.

      Seriously, if you could do that, this fact would destroy the genuine usefulness of TPM for people that do want to use it for whatever purpose.

      False.

      Considering otherwise identical hardware, an option allowing owner to knowing his own keys does not alter the security capabilities of the hardware to secure the computer FOR the owner. It preserves all security benefits for the owner of the computer. All it does is eliminate the ability to secure the computer against the owner. The anti-owner security features of Trusted Computing only DIMINISH security anyway. It is always physically possible for an owner to rip open their chip and read out their key, invalidating that entire security model. Assuming that a remote computer is secure against the owner is an invalid assumption. Any security application built upon an invalid security assumption is going to fail. The the extent anyone actually buys into the Trusted Computing Remote Attestation security model, they wind up with a flawed system and WORSE security than had they not relied on that invalid assumption. People will try to rely on Remote Attestation, other people will have read out their master key, the Remote Attestation will be insecure, and security will fail.

      Advertising Remote Attestation as a valid useful security system is HARMFUL. People will expect it to work, and it won't. Security will fail the moment they expect it to work and they try to rely on it.

      If all you want to say is "I'm Joe Schmoe and I certify that this computer runs unmodified Joe Schmoe's Little Distro", you can certainly do that, no TPM required. No one would trust such a statement but I gather it's OK

      Actually there is value in doing that with an owner-controlled TPM (meaning the owner may know his key). First of all it retains the full security value if it is the owner himself remotely querying his own computer remotely. Secondly, other people still receive the exact same assurance as they would receive under your plan. Namely, they receive assurance that the system has not been infected or otherwise modified without the owner's knowledge.

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    8. Re:I don't understand... by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      I used to be the user that defended the TPM structure, until I read intel's documents on purpose, reasoning, and howto.

      Their idea is that they try to plant a CPU that follows their instructions, not yours (the owner). Id rather prefer a way to reset the master key (PrivEK) or have it well known to the owner... but that's specifically was is forbidden in the Intel documents.

      I could imagine a Linux system that would be immune to trojans due to physically not being able to run. that'd be cool, once you set it up and all. But the TPM's now are anti-owner devices.

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    9. Re:I don't understand... by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Then explain why I cant have my private key to the TPM I may own?

      Precisely. The intent is to secure the computer against the owner. If you know your key then you can unlock and control your computer.

      Or, who knows the proper private key to unlock any TPM?

      No one.
      The way the system is set up there is no master unlocking key. There are keys you can use to create new unlocked phony TPMs, but they are mostly useless towards an existing TPM.

      I'll give a super simplified rundown of how it works. They manufacture the chip. The chip generates a completely random key. The key has a public half and a secret half. The secret half of the key is locked in the chip. No one knows it, no one is ever permitted to see it. The manufacturer uses their key to sign the public half of the chip's key. The chip loads and stores this signature. This signature "proves" that the chip's key is a real TPM key. It "proves" that the master key to this chip *is* locked inside a chip, and that no one has ever seen it, and that the chip will never willingly permit anyone to ever see it.

      The master key is locked inside the chip. No one knows it, no one can unlock the chip.

      Actually I just thought of something. The technical specification does permit an optional feature - manufacturers are permitted to include something called Maintenance. If a manufacture does include the maintenance capability, then the maintenance key could indeed be used to unlock all chips of that particular model from that particular manufacturer. The manufacturer would be in possession of this key. The specification mandates that the manufacturer is forbidden to ever use this key in this manner.

      If you did manage to break into a manufacturer and steal/copy this key, then with physical access you could activate maintenance mode, read out the maintenance data (the TPM chip self destructs in the process ), and use the key to decrypt the maintenance data. That gives you the keys - the soul of the chip. You could then unlock all data stored on that computer, and you can use those keys to reincarnate the TPM in a new chip or in software. The reincarnated TPM would be unlocked.

      Even if you did manage to get into the manufacture to snatch tat key, it's probably going to be locked inside a TPM itself. You'd have to physically rip open that TPM to unlock it, to get the maintenance key. You would have the benefit that physically ripping one chip would then allow you to easily unlock an unlimited number more chips of that model.

      If you could snatch the manufacture's signing key then you could "manufacture" unlocked TPMs at will. That's no good for unlocking existing systems, but most of the time a shiny new unlocked TPM is just as good. This key is also likely to be locked inside a TPM.

      There's one more key of significance, the very top master key to the whole system. While this is theoretically the most powerful key, it actually turns out to be pretty much useless. It's the master key used to sign/certify manufacturer's keys. With this key you can create your own hone manufacturer key, which you can then use to create phony new TPMs - unlocked new TPMs. The reason this doesn't really work is because they will quickly realize you are making phony manufacturer keys, and there are a small number of real manufacturer keys. They can simply publish a list of the real manufacturer keys. Your fake manufacturer keys are not on the list, they get rejected,and any phony TPMs you made with it will be rejected. So if you snatch the MASTER master key to everything then you could create total chaos for a while, but they could quickly shut you down.

      Actually if you snatch a manufacturer key or a manufacturer's maintenance key, then they could shut you down by revoking ALL affected chips. They could revoke all chips of that model, or all chips ever made by that manufacturer. However that is the nuclear option. Thousands or even millions of random innocent people would wake up one morning to find the chip in THEIR comp

      --
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    10. Re:I don't understand... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It is nonsensical to refer to a home security system secured against attack by a "rogue home owner".

      Not really. Most home security systems are monitored. They are collaborative and if a homeowner abuses the system, it creates a reduction in availability by distracting people in the op center.

      Don't like it? Build your own security system. It's not like you can't do that in your home, or get a computer without a TPM.

      If they succeed in rolling out Trust chips in computers in large numbers things will get very ugly.

      Yes, there will be an awful lot of yellow question marks in Device Managers across the world.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    11. Re:I don't understand... by Kickasso · · Score: 1

      If you cannot permanently wipe, or temporarily disable, the manufacturer's keys and replace them with your own, then that's a bug and I'm the first to admit that.

      It's just not a critical bug for most people that want to put TPMs to a practical use. For example, people might want to use these things to control who can connect to their network. And they probably don't want to replace keys, because they will have to manage replaced keys then, and it's apparently just one more thing to manage for no good reason at all.

      It might be a critical bug for people that don't want any TPMs at all, neither on their computers nor on everyone else's. But why manufacturers would listen to them?

      Now, if you want to discover manufacturer's keys, that's a different matter. I have no idea, and don't care, whether you have legal rights to do that or not. This may vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and there are no engineering consequences of it anyway. The feature/bug is that you don't have a practical, economically viable way to do that. And people will build (both good and bad things) upon it, because they can.

      Of course the assumption that the owner will under no circumstances have the key is, strictly speaking, invalid. So is the assumption that the owner isn't typing his ultra-secure 64 characters small-and-capital-letters-and-digits-and-special-characters, plus one-time key off his RSA dongle, under gunpoint. So what? Does it make passwords and dongles invalid security measures? No.

    12. Re:I don't understand... by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Yep, yep. But one thing.... "Id rather prefer a way to reset the master key (PrivEK) that does you no good. It's no better than a standard TPM for your purposes, and it is rejected as an invalid TPM by everyone else.

      The issue is that you get screwed if other people have a standard TPM and you don't. Then those computers start refusing to talk to you, and various programs and data files refuse to run on your computer. You might go to some website and it does a Trust check to ensure you don't block the ads. If you don't have a standard TPM then you can't view the website.

      You need to either prevent most other people from ending up with TPMs, or you need a standard option where lots of people know their PrivEK. A lesser fix is if you crack your chip to know your PrivEK(or some equivalent override), but in that case you are always under threat that they will detect that your system is jail-broken, in which case they revoke your PrivEK. Then you need to go buy a brand new PC with a new chip with a new PrivEK. Not fun.

      -

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    13. Re:I don't understand... by Alsee · · Score: 1

      If you cannot permanently wipe, or temporarily disable, the manufacturer's keys and replace them with your own

      The way the system works, wiping the chip's key or replacing it with your own is entirely pointless. There's no reason to ever do that.

      By the way that key is called the PrivEK. It stands for Private Endorsement Key.

      If you wipe or replace the PrivEK then as far as the rest of the Trusted Computing universe is concerned you have an invalid rejected chip. As far as the broader Trust system is concerned, you have no chip at all. Your chip is not Trusted, your computer is not Trusted. Any other computers using the Trust system will reject connections from your computer, and your computer will be unable to access any Trusted content. You're just as screwed as if you have no chip at all. You're locked out of the Trust system.

      You CAN still you that chip for some limited local uses, like Bitlocker. However there's absolutely no need to wipe or replace the PrivEK for that. If you're just using the chip for Bitlocker and the like, then you're not really using the PrivEK anyway, or it doesn't matter what the PrivEK is set to.

      If you wipe/change the PrivEK the you completely destroy the Trusted status and Trusted capabilities of the chip. And if you're not using the Trusted capabilities of the chip then there's no need to care about that key.

      Now, if you want to discover manufacturer's keys, that's a different matter.

      While that would be most amusing, grin, no. I was absolutely not suggesting anything of the sort.

      I was saying that I want to know my master key in my chip. (Actually you have two keys locked in there, the PrivEK and the RSK Root Storage Key, but lets gloss over that and keep it simple).

      If you do not know your master key then your computer can be locked against you. Your files on your computer can be locked so that you cannot read them or modify them or control them. It gets pretty technical and complicated, but in essence it makes your computer one big DRM machine. It spies on you and it sends those spy reports to other people, and it enforced Uber-DRM on your files software and network connections.

      Either you DO use the Trust system and your computer gets locked down, or you do not use the Trust system and you get completely locked out of the Trust system and completely locked out of all Trusted files and completely locked out of all Trusted software and completely locked out any network service or network access that uses the Trust system. In the long term worst case your ISP could use the Trust system. If that ever happens then you have a choice - either Turn on the Trusted lockdown to get internet access and completely surrender ownership and control of your computer, or don't turn on the Trusted lockdown and not get internet access.

      In the medium term, it might start happening with websites for example. A website may well want to make sure you don't run any sort of adblocker. They want to make sure the ads are displayed along with the webpage, or you don't get to view the website at all. The webserver sends a quick small Trust check-request to your computer. Either you have the Trust system on and it sends back a Trusted spy report on your system and you effectively surrender control and surrender ownership of your computer, or you don't get to view the website at all.

      Either a Trusted lockdown, or a Trusted lockout.

      I hope I explained it clearly enough. I'm half asleep and I'm brain-blurry :)

      Of course the assumption that the owner will under no circumstances have the key is, strictly speaking, invalid... So what? Does it make passwords and dongles invalid security measures? No.

      But that's not the sort of "security" that Trusted computing is about. Trusted Computing defines "security" in a bizarre irrational way.

      Let me try this example. You have a vending machine selling soda or snacks. The normal meaning of security is that you have a bill-scanner and a coin-dete

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    14. Re:I don't understand... by Kickasso · · Score: 1

      The vendor's signature on PubEK means that the corresponding PrivEK will never leave the chip. That's the main thing the vendor guarantees (not absolutely, mind you, just reasonably). If lots of people know their PrivEK, then obviously no vendor can guarantee such a thing.

      What some people want the vendors to guarantee is the assertion that "the corresponding PrivEK will never leave the chip, and the only other copy of it is given to the owner of the chip to securely manage". Of course in practice this means that "the corresponding PrivEK will never leave the chip, and there was once a single copy given to the first owner of the chip, but now due to carelessness, malice, software bugs, accidents, drugs and other valid reasons, there's unknown number of second-generation copies of it in circulation, possessed by unknown people with unknown intentions".

      Now we can simply ignore that there (probably) is a physical chip somewhere, with the corresponding PrivEK on it. It might never have existed, or might have been destroyed on delivery, or never plugged in, for all we know. Everything signed by that PrivEK can be assumed to never see actual TPM hardware. So what's guaranteed? We can be sure that there's a public key signed by someone well-known and trustworthy, and that the corresponding private key was given to someone to (mis)manage, and that's pretty much all. Surprisingly, there's a system in place to manage just such a kind of key pairs. If you want one, buy an SSL certificate.

      Oh, and for the record, I think that this technology attestation can be used for both good things (asset management, secure remote access, even anti-cheating measures in online games) and bad things (DRM). It's pretty useless to protest the technology. If the technology is killed, but the concept of DRM itself remains attractive, content producers will find another vehicle to bring DRM upon people. What needs to be fought is DRMd content, not any technology it's wrapped in.

    15. Re:I don't understand... by Kickasso · · Score: 1

      Please don't assume I'm stupid. I once read and understood the entire specification of TPM. I forgot most of it since I don't need it in my everyday life, but I can recall bits, or read it again, if needed.

      TPM cannot protect against hardcore physical attacks, so let's agree not to discuss them. Physical attacks are not always feasible and it makes sense to restrict the discussion to less hardcore threat models.

      I understand that the technology can be used to do, among other things, some pretty evil stuff. You don't need to describe just how evil this stuff is. I can judge for myself, thank you very much.

      Now let's discuss the PrivEK. I gather you want to know it. Do I understand you correctly? If so, what meaning do you ascribe to the manufacturer's signature on the PubEK? Normally it means "I have made a TPM chip, and I guarantee that the private part of this key will never leave that chip". (Again, restricting ourselves to attack models other than harcore physical). If you know your PrivEK, the signature cannot possibly mean that. What does it mean, then? Here's one possible meaning: "I have made a TPM chip, and there's a copy of the private portion of that key on that chip; another copy of the private portion of that key was given to a person who first purchased the chip, and then probably lost, revealed to any number of third parties, or otherwise mismanaged". Do you think this guarantee is worth any non-negative number of dollars? Note that the "I have made a TPM chip" part is useless: the signature might just as well mean "I gave the private portion of this key to someone", as any conversation that involves this keypair can be assumed not to touch any actual TPM hardware.

    16. Re:I don't understand... by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Please don't assume I'm stupid. I once read and understood the entire specification of TPM.

      I did not intent to imply anywhere that you were stupid. Very few people have read the tech specks on the TPM or understand it in detail, so I routinely attempt to explain things at a not-too-technical level. It's also possible that in my tired state my ramblings came across badly.

      TPM cannot protect against hardcore physical attacks, so let's agree not to discuss them.

      I'm confused by the logic of that dismissal of the subject.
      If I end up with a TPM equipped computer I fully intend to extract my key or otherwise jail-break it. I also fully intend to use that expertise to do the same for my friends, and I fully intend to encourage and inform as much of the general public as I can to do so as well.

      It's likely to be a pain in the ass, it is absolutely pointless that it *is* a pain in the ass, it is absolutely malicious that it is a pain in the ass, but I absolutely intend to do so. It's my property and no one has any right to object. I absolutely intend to improve my computer. I absolutely intend to increase the functionality and capabilities of my computer. I absolutely intend "TPM override" functionality expanding my control and capabilities above the deliberate hand-cuff level capabilities of a standard unmodified TPM.

      So I fail to see why you want to "agree not to discuss them". As I understand it they are extremely relevant to the whole subject. They are engaging in an explicitly owner-hostile attempt to make it as much of a pain in the ass as possible. They cannot prevent it, all they can do is make it pointlessly difficult, and, if they get a chance, to become even more explicitly and malevolent and deliberately screw over those owners by revoking that key.

      Now let's discuss the PrivEK. I gather you want to know it. Do I understand you correctly?

      Correct. I want to know my PrivEK in my chip. I'm not expecting access to anyone else's keys.

      If so, what meaning do you ascribe to the manufacturer's signature on the PubEK?

      That question has different answers on different levels.
      I acknowledge that what you would like it to mean and what they would like it to mean is that this key will never leave the chip and the computer will be "Trusted-secure" against the owner.

      So you could say I consider that signature to represent an invalid assumption.

      Or you could say I personally ascribe almost no meaning to that signature, in that the alleged meaning is invalid.

      Or you could say I ascribe it to be an attempt to exclude interoperability (a non-compliant chip has no signature and will be rejected, as will keys on the revocation list).

      Or you could say I ascribe it to be a (possibly illegal) monopoly enforcement mechanism. The Trusted Computing Group has the top level master key and uses it to impose Monopoly Control over chip manufacturers and thereby monopoly control over all chips and the entire system. (The manufacturer key is not valid unless it is signed by the Trusted Computing Group's master key.)

      Or we could just go with what it actually literally means (presuming that the Trusted Computing Group has signed that manufacturer key)...
      It means the manufacturer has signed the key.
      Along public claim that the Trusted Computing Group will only sign keys for manufacturers bound by contract to only produce compliant chips.
      So presuming the Trusted Computing Group statement is actually reliable, and presuming that manufacturers do not violate their contracts, assuming all that true, the manufacturer's signature means exactly one thing - the chip was manufactured in compliance with the specification.

      You might want to assume that means the key is still inside a compliant chip, but the manufacture no longer owns that chip and can no longer make any valid assertions about that chip, beyond that they did manufacture it in compliance with the standard. Once they sell that chip they can no longe

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  11. A better solution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stop putting encryption into memory.

    In the old days, computers would ask for a code when you wanted to decrypt something -- no caching necessary.

    1. Re:A better solution. by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Heh, no caching, eh. How did it *use* the code?

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    2. Re:A better solution. by icebike · · Score: 1

      Why worry?

      If they have your machine, its only a matter of time before they discover a way to access your porn.

      You can't cold boot attack a machine without physical access. If "they" have your machine for long enough to pull off a successful cold boot attack, chances are they could just as easily take your hard drive back to their lab, in which case all bets are off.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    3. Re:A better solution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit. A cold boot attack takes me less than a minute with my USB key and a small USB harddrive on a system with 2gb of memory, and I can have your volume mounted in under three minutes thanks to linuxlive hackery.

    4. Re:A better solution. by icebike · · Score: 1

      Why would you assume my machine would be set up to boot from any USB device?

      Good luck with that.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    5. Re:A better solution. by SolidAltar · · Score: 1

      > In the old days, computers would ask for a code when you wanted to decrypt something -- no caching necessary.

      *slaps AC* Approaches like TrueCrypt REQUIRE that the password remain in memory. How else are you supposed to even browse the files?

    6. Re:A better solution. by fbjon · · Score: 1

      In the old days, they retyped the key for every block.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    7. Re:A better solution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First you would have to melt the glue out of my computer's USB ports, and then resolder the cut data lines. Good luck with that in 1 minute!

    8. Re:A better solution. by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      Where do you think the computer stored the key when it was decrypting the data? There's no magical secure encryption key land where the key could have been stored. It would have been stored IN MEMORY. That's where it's found with the cold boot attack.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    9. Re:A better solution. by raynet · · Score: 1

      You are assuming that my computer has USB ports or supports booting on them. And even if you managed to boot it from USB, it would take atleast 22mins to transfer 2GB of RAM through USB1.1 port.

      --
      - Raynet --> .
    10. Re:A better solution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why would you assume he's going to use the BIOS you want him to use?

    11. Re:A better solution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because your keyboard has , or whatever other key the bios on your motherboard uses to put up a nice bootdevice selector screen.

  12. Secure computing works by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 1
    This was really just a marketiung exercise with just enough technical mumbo-jumbo to make it sound real.

    If you consider that the primary goal was really to make people *think* that they were doing something useful, then , yes, the exercise was successful.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
  13. A safer alternative by kasperd · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This is supposed to protect the key while the system is locked, and a password is used to unlock the screen. But if a password is required to unlock anyway, the key doesn't even have to be accessible while the system is locked, the password itself could be used to decrypt the key while unlocking. Of course there is a drawback in that any disk operations would have to be delayed until the system is unlocked, that might not be acceptable for all users.

    The simplest way to implement my proposal would probably be to suspend the system instead of just locking the screen (like you do if you are not going to be using your laptop for a few hours). It just has to be implemented correctly such that the key really isn't available until decrypted using the password that you enter when waking it up.

    If you want to lock your laptop and leave it doing things in the background requiring disk access, then the idea from this article might be valuable. There are other possibilities, one alternative is to store the key in special cryptographic hardware from where it can't just be read out (I haven't thought through the details of such a design, there are obviously some hurdles that would need to be sorted out). Or you could make some use of asymmetric cryptography, I don't think any storage encryption currently does that, since it could have a performance penalty, but it would provide some protection against attacks like this. You could also use ciphers that are less vulnerable to this kind of attack. Part of the attack is to use the key schedule as a kind of error correcting encoding that will help recovering the key. Key schedules are typically designed with performance in mind, and this kind of attack is not considered. But for most storage encryptions the performance of the key schedule isn't important, so a different key schedule could be designed to have no error correcting properties. (I think that just means the function mapping from key to key schedule would have to be a PRNG).

    --

    Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
    1. Re:A safer alternative by Chaos+Incarnate · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem with encrypting the key via password is that it requires either storing the password in a reversible fashion (not hashed), which is terrible security, or requiring the user to enter the password before locking the system, which prevents inactivity timers from locking the system.

      --
      Benford's Corollary to Clarke's Law: "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    2. Re:A safer alternative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why? Just load the hash from the disk while you can access it.

    3. Re:A safer alternative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just use asymmetric cryptography:

      k = full disk key

      p = private key, encrypted with password
      P = public key

      At suspend/lock; k is encrypted by P using an asymmetric crypto algorithm [RSA for example] to k', stored wherever

      At unsuspend, P is decrypted by password, used to decrypt k' thereby retrieving k

    4. Re:A safer alternative by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      Public-key encryption would resolve that issue. Only the decryption key need be protected by a passphrase; encryption can take place non-interactively via the public key.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    5. Re:A safer alternative by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      Or preparing the password-encrypted key when the password is used to log in. It seems fairly uncommon these days to have a screen-unlock password that is not the login password.

    6. Re:A safer alternative by 10101001+10101001 · · Score: 1

      Further than that, the idea can be used for all sorts of applications, from automatic encrypted hibernation (since even if you're using encrypted swap, you need somewhere to store the key) to automatic backups (since a large part of why people don't backup is because there's too much risk leaking out something inoccuous at the time that later turns out to be important to keep yet shouldn't be available to anyone with physical access to one's tapes). IIRC, Windows's EFS uses the idea, although its use of a recovery agent undermines the implementation. It's a shame that public/private key encryption isn't used more often in such applications. Even if one fears quantum computing, there's elliptic curve based public/private key generation with no obvious sign of even theoretical weakness, AFAIK.

      --
      Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
    7. Re:A safer alternative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That could easily be solved: use a public/private keypair and encrypt the private key with the password. When the system is locked, encrypt the disk-encryption-key with the public key. To unlock, enter the password, decrypt the private key and use that to decrypt the disk-encryption-key.

    8. Re:A safer alternative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm, no? Just use asymmetric encryption and just encrypt the private key using the password.

    9. Re:A safer alternative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > requiring the user to enter the password before locking the system

      So:

      - I turn my PC on
      - I enter the disk encryption password
      - The system boots to the login prompt
      - I log in with my user account password
      -- The system encrypts the disk encryption key with my user account password, and stores it in RAM.
      - ... time passes ...
      - My PC locks itself and zeroes the disk encryption password
      -- If my PC is stolen now then I'm safe
      - I unlock my PC with my account password
      -- The system uses my account password to decrypt the disk encryption password

    10. Re:A safer alternative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you can use the public key of an asymmetric crypto scheme to encrypt the key (or better: the whole ram), to unlock decrypt your symmetrically encrypted private key (which may be stored on some external flash memory)

  14. Disable CPU cache... by thegrassyknowl · · Score: 1

    ... so the solution to a cold boot attack is make your computer so damned slow that you don't want to use it. Therefore you won't want to create encrypted volumes to store your world domination plans anymore.

    --
    I drink to make other people interesting!
    1. Re:Disable CPU cache... by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

      Hey, my Harry Potter/X-Men/Buffy the Vampire slayer crossover fan fiction is going to make me millions and I need to protect it.

    2. Re:Disable CPU cache... by Hungus · · Score: 1

      Only if it also stars Captain Kirk as an ocelot.

      --
      Bad Panda! No Bamboo for you! In matters of importance ACs will not be responded to. Want to say something critical,OK
  15. Nice idea, but... by ogl_codemonkey · · Score: 1

    There is an underlying problem with this strategy; in that it is that it's targeted at locked laptops... which need to shut down and power off the CPU cache in order to not run out of power in the next 30 minutes.

    And to answer another common question here; CPU cache is power-hungry SRAM (a set of transistors per-bit), rather than DRAM (a capacitor per-bit) - so it does lose it's state when unpowered.

    Also, as soon as you turn it back on, it'll be overwritten with the BIOS/POST/bootlader/whatever instructions and data... that's what it's there for, and that's its default mode.

    1. Re:Nice idea, but... by adamofgreyskull · · Score: 1

      There is an underlying problem with this strategy; in that it is that it's targeted at locked laptops... which need to shut down and power off the CPU cache in order to not run out of power in the next 30 minutes.

      As I understand it...the attack their method is trying to prevent is the case where you have a locked machine (not necessarily a laptop, but it could be), but the encryption key is stored in RAM. The attacker powers off the machine and immediately cools the RAM right down and plugs it into another machine especially designed to copy anything off it and find such things as encryption keys. From the sounds of things, their method stores the encryption key, not in RAM, but in the CPU cache, so that any attempt to power off the machine and plunder the contents of RAM will be fruitless.I.E. it takes advantage of the fact that anything in the CPU cache is lost really quite easily...as you mentioned...

      Now, if we think about this for a picosecond..the kind of people with the where-with-all to successfully launch an attack of this nature will be police forces and governments and if you're the kind of person who wants to stay one step ahead of either, you're the kind of person who won't mind re-entering a decryption key every time you resume/reboot etc. If I've got anything wrong, please correct me. If I've been trolled then mea culpa..

    2. Re:Nice idea, but... by calmofthestorm · · Score: 1

      Well the simple version of the attack is to put a microkernel in a netboot/usbkey and boot their computer to it, if they didn't disable that in BIOS. Hope you don't overwrite key storage with the microkernel (unlikely), then just dump ram for later analysis. Grep it for the linux key storage struct...and you win. It could be made almost plug and play.

      Against a disabled boot order, it would take someone with undergrad-ish electrical engineering and computer science training to pull off such an attack, given a week or two to prepare. Build a dram access board, pull out the DRAM (no N2 is really needed to be honest, DRAM can actually hold its contents for minutes with minimal loss, though this varies widely by type. The stuff I used in my intro EE classes was still like 80% accurate after 30 minutes unpowered, despite the specs asking for a refresh cycle thousands of times per second.) Put the ram into the reader board, dump it to your computer, and grep for the key struct.

      Enough people can pull off this attack that pretty much anyone who has a serious interest in getting your data could probably do so with a bit of time and money investment. Personally, I encrypt to deter casual thiefs, not the KGB.

      --
      93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
    3. Re:Nice idea, but... by ogl_codemonkey · · Score: 1

      Absolutely; anyone truly worried about such attacks against memory contents would re-enter the key upon resume... I'm sure many of us do something like this anyway, in the form of our login password. Personally, I'd rather see that integrated with full-disk encryption.

      The issue I was trying to raise is that this proposal makes resuming from suspend more convenient by potentially saving those keystrokes; at the cost of not being able to actually power down the CPU to do so...

      But I also could be completely misreading this.

  16. Re:Write a summary that's useful, kthx. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    Not to mention, this is posted on the internet. Select the text you don't know about, right click and choose search google for "text". Firefox automagically opens a search on the topic in a new tab, and chances are the Wikipedia article is one of the top five results which should be a good enough starting point to see if the topic is of any interest to you. Magically, the old style of handholding journalism where authors are forced to assume the reader has the education of a 5th grader goes away, and society can actually advance further than the lowest common denominator.

  17. Re:Write a summary that's useful, kthx. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Couldn't have been that important, I found one slashdot article in February of 2008 about it (no dupes?!). I'm not a security researcher, and don't care to be, sorry if I don't follow every possible obscure way of someone with physical access to my machine getting at my datas. I guess you're right, this is news for nerds, not news for people who have other shit going on in their lives. Thanks for clearing that up. Nerd.

  18. TPM only solves the PEBKAC issue by CustomDesigned · · Score: 1

    The "secure computing" preached by MS does not protect against OS bugs, buffer overflows, or any of the myriad local or remote attacks based on software flaws. The only "security" it offers is a way to prevent end users from downloading and installing the software of their choice. I don't mean to minimize the value of this - it is an important base to cover. The "typical" Windows user sees a free screen saver and goes "Ooh! Shiny!" and installs it - thereby joining yet another botnet. When/if Linux reaches Windows marketshare, "typical" Linux users will do the same.

    Of course, this turns a Windows/TPM computer into something akin to a game console. I personally don't think there is anything wrong with this - until M$ convinces the government to outlaw real computers because they are "insecure". Or more likely, convinces banks and online merchants to only do business with TPM computers.

    1. Re:TPM only solves the PEBKAC issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It depends on what you were planning to use the TPM hardware for.

      As per Microsoft's plans, the idea was basically to have the OS take ownership of the TPM, use it as it's own key store for whatever it wanted (like DRM), and to allow stupid things like TPM-based authentication to lock people out of services if they weren't using the latest up-to-date version of Windows with a TPM.

      It can be used for good, as well as evil. Microsoft also used it to implement BitLocker (whole-disk encryption), with the TPM used to store the decryption key.

      On the Linux side, there are plenty of non-evil uses. Since the system administrator controls the TPM, instead of the OS vendor, you can use it for pretty much anything. Storing GPG keys, for example. Or using it to ensure the bootloader, kernel and initrd haven't been tampered with, whole-disk encryption, signature validation...

      Useless for home users, of course, but potentially quite useful for servers, or other locked-down environments.

    2. Re:TPM only solves the PEBKAC issue by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

      It can be used for good, as well as evil. Microsoft also used it to implement BitLocker (whole-disk encryption), with the TPM used to store the decryption key.

      So when your mobo gets fried by an errant cup of sysadmin coffee (or mountain dew) you lose all your data! YAY!

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    3. Re:TPM only solves the PEBKAC issue by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Yes, all data would be rendered inaccessible. However, the user or sysadmin should be making backups of their data in the first place. Under no circumstances should a user keep all of their important data in one place. There is simply no excuse for it.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    4. Re:TPM only solves the PEBKAC issue by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

      Yes, all data would be rendered inaccessible. However, the user or sysadmin should be making backups of their data in the first place. Under no circumstances should a user keep all of their important data in one place. There is simply no excuse for it.

      bitlocker is marketed to small-time users. Commercial companies already had encryption solutions.

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
  19. Re:Write a summary that's useful, kthx. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
    There were 2 slashdot articles:

    http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/07/20/1624253

    http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/02/21/1543234

    It was also on Wired: http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/02/encryption-stil.html

    Engadget: http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/21/cold-boot-disk-encryption-attack-is-shockingly-effective/

    Schneier's blog: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/02/cold_boot_attac.html

    Information week: http://www.informationweek.com/news/personal_tech/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=206801184

    The Register: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/21/cold_boot_utilities/

    Cnet: http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-10003167-83.html

    PC World http://www.pcworld.com/video/id,762-page,1-bid,0/video.html

    Boing Boing http://www.boingboing.net/2008/07/19/cold-boot-encryption.html

    It was even on reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS163325+27-Feb-2008+PRN20080227

    It's not an obscure thing, you are just ignorant of major technology news. Perhaps the summary should define "CPU" and "linux" for you as well, just in case you don't what they are either.

  20. DRAM and SRAM by colsandurz45 · · Score: 1

    What's really important here is that the key would be kept in SRAM(CPU Cache), not DRAM(Memory). With DRAM the stored bit is stored in a capacitance and in SRAM the bit is stored in a latch(usually a D-type latch from what I understand). I would guess that it's harder to freeze SRAM and keep the bit in place.

  21. Re:Write a summary that's useful, kthx. by freedumb2000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Don't be arrogant and put the blame on the reader. It's called journalistic writing and typing a good summary does take a bit of care. Adhering to some basic writing principles, like the inverted pyramid, would go a long way even for a lowly summary writer/story submiter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_pyramid

  22. how often are these actaully done? by wjh31 · · Score: 1

    so how often are these cold boot attacks actually performed in a hostile situation (as opposed to under controled conditions for demonstration, or to legitimately recover lost passwords or whatever)

    1. Re:how often are these actaully done? by Sven+Tuerpe · · Score: 1

      so how often are these cold boot attacks actually performed in a hostile situation (as opposed to under controled conditions for demonstration, or to legitimately recover lost passwords or whatever)

      This is a good and legitimate question. This question should not be used to thwart research, however. Threats may evolve and exploiting a vulnerability could become widespread over time. Perhaps deployment can wait until this really happens but research should not.

      --
      http://erichsieht.wordpress.com/category/english/
  23. Re:Write a summary that's useful, kthx. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Please stop posting here, nobody likes you.
    Seriously.

    Troll or actual idiot, we don't want you here.
    To quote a(n) (in)famous 4chan quote, "lurk moar".

  24. Physical Access == 0wn3d by nubsac · · Score: 1
    If an attacker has physical access to your machine, the "cold boot" attack should be the least of your concerns.

    Additionally, if your that fucking concerned about this attack, wait 30 sec to 1 min after shutdown when logic gates loose electrical charge and are defaulted to zero.

    Perhaps I don't fully understand the details of this attack, but it seems as if this would be impractical as a way to steal data. My understanding is that the data only exists for a short period of time after shutdown.Please correct me if I'm wrong...

    1. Re:Physical Access == 0wn3d by calmofthestorm · · Score: 1

      Um...physical access only is owned if you have an unencrypted root. Against an encrypted root on an unpowered system you're pretty much SOL short of adding a hardware keylogger. Or I suppose you could modify their kernel, but a TPM can thwart that.

      --
      93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
    2. Re:Physical Access == 0wn3d by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem occurs if you're a big corporate guy with a laptop containing data that could be worth many millions if it falls into the wrong hands.

      And since you have encrypted your drive, it could be possible for someone to yank the laptop from you while it is still powered on (but locked), and then use this attack vector to obtain the encryption key to the drive.

    3. Re:Physical Access == 0wn3d by Hatta · · Score: 1

      If an attacker has physical access to your machine, the "cold boot" attack should be the least of your concerns.

      If an attacker has physical access to my machine, the "cold boot" attack is my ONLY concern. I encrypt my entire disk, including swap(except for /boot). I s2disk every time I leave the machine. I do not care about the hardware or data loss, only data falling into the wrong hands. What attack should I be more concerned about? Freezing the ram is the only conceivable way an attacker could get the keys, and get my data in an unencrypted form.

      Perhaps I don't fully understand the details of this attack, but it seems as if this would be impractical as a way to steal data. My understanding is that the data only exists for a short period of time after shutdown

      That's what the freezing is for. Cold enough temperatures can stretch that 30 seconds into 5 minutes or so. Plenty of time to read your keys.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  25. zero on power up? by Eil · · Score: 1, Interesting

    This sounds like quite an over-complicated solution. Isn't it possible to design "secure" memory chips that zero their contents when power is first applied? I mean, memory chips are pretty "dumb" (from a design logic perspective, which is why cold-boot attacks work) so how hard would it really be to add this function to the chip? If it significantly adds to the manufacturing cost, sell it as a feature. I know of many agencies and individuals who would be interested in memory that's secure against cold-boot attacks, even if it costs twice per MB as normal chips.

    1. Re:zero on power up? by Zironic · · Score: 1

      How exactly would a memory chip define "power first applied"? And how would the memory itself erase anything?

      Afaik RAM is just a bunch of cells that are either charged or they're not and it's all decided by the memory controller.

    2. Re:zero on power up? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      How exactly would a memory chip define "power first applied"? And how would the memory itself erase anything?

      Well, I might be taking a stab in the dark here, but perhaps it has something to do with THE ADDITIONAL CIRCUITRY proposed by the Parent?

      Nothing ever gets done in the world anymore because those of us with an understanding of our surroundings are too busy facepalming ourselves constantly.

    3. Re:zero on power up? by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

      How exactly would a memory chip define "power first applied"?

      How exactly would we integrate color into a tv set?

      How exactly would we go to the moon?

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    4. Re:zero on power up? by marcansoft · · Score: 1

      Memory chips contain a lot more logic than you think they do. For starters, the miniscule charge stored in the capacitors has trouble getting through a microscopic bitline in the DRAM chip, so there's no way it would make it out to a chip pin much less the memory controller - that's why DRAM has highly sensitive differential amplifiers (one for each bitline pair). Modern DRAM uses relatively interesting interfaces that, while still closely related to the actual operations needed to read out the charge in the RAM, require quite a bit of logic. They tend to come with auto-refresh modes and the like. Adding a zero operation on power-on doesn't sound like a very big deal, although making it resistant to attacks (glitches / power changes / anything to interrupt the zeroing) would be more interesting.

    5. Re:zero on power up? by Sven+Tuerpe · · Score: 1

      Isn't it possible to design "secure" memory chips that zero their contents when power is first applied?

      Maybe, but this would solve only one portion of the problem. Cold boot attacks imply that the attacker has physical access to the computer and sufficient time to dig down to the wires without getting caught. The canonical implementation is stealing a running laptop. The attacker's objective is to get access to a key, which today usually resides in RAM. Cold boot attacks are one way of doing this but there is a wide range of other things that an attacker could do in this situation. The attacker might use interfaces like Firewire for instance, which has been mentioned elsewhere in this discussion. Or manipulate the running system in such a way that power suppply of the RAM chips is maintained while other components are being reset. "Secure" memory chips as you propose would therefore solve only part of the real problem.

      --
      http://erichsieht.wordpress.com/category/english/
    6. Re:zero on power up? by Zironic · · Score: 1

      I'd be more worried about it accidentally zeroing everything out during normal operation.

    7. Re:zero on power up? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Isn't it possible to design "secure" memory chips that zero their contents when power is first applied?

      Yes, but then you have to build those chips, and get people to buy them. This should work out of the box on existing hardware.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    8. Re:zero on power up? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      The canonical implementation is stealing a running laptop.

      But not at all by necessity. There exist UPSs that you can apply to a live system, shut the power down, and move the system to your FBI lab for cryptanalysis. If it's a laptop, you can at least s2disk instead of s2ram to defend against this attack.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    9. Re:zero on power up? by mea37 · · Score: 1

      Your computer does lots of thigns at boot-up that you wouldn't want it to do during "normal operation", and you depend on the chip designers having done a lot of things right that are more complex than what is proposed here. If you're worried about adding a feature because you can imagine it malfunctioning, then you probably haven't thought about all the failure modes that are theoretically conceivable in any working system.

      The proposed solution -- memory that wipes itself either when power is lost or when power is restored -- is the correct approach. TFA is clever and a good work-around, but ultimately it's trying to apply a software solution to a hardware problem. In any case TFA isn't, as it calls itself, a general solution to cold-boot attacks; it addresses specifically a laptop that's stolen when locked.

    10. Re:zero on power up? by Zironic · · Score: 1

      The thing is that the rest of the computer will be built around the assumption that the RAM is dumb so it might just do something that the "smart" ram thinks is a power failure and then it goes and resets itself.

      Giving the RAM more smarts to become hackerproof will probably require the rest of the hardware to be changed aswell to account for that.

    11. Re:zero on power up? by mea37 · · Score: 1

      [Citation Needed] || FUD.

      I can think of no conceivable "smart" reason why the system would remove power from the DRAM, because if it did there would be a risk of data loss.

    12. Re:zero on power up? by Eil · · Score: 1

      How exactly would a memory chip define "power first applied"? And how would the memory itself erase anything?

      Afaik RAM is just a bunch of cells that are either charged or they're not and it's all decided by the memory controller.

      I confess to not being an EE, but I assumed that memory chips were similar to other ICs in that they have a voltage applied to the Vcc pin. If this is true, it should be possible (not necessarily easy, but possible) to have the logic gates default to zero when the voltage is applied to the Vcc pin or the RST pin.

  26. Cold boot team responds by mollyhackit · · Score: 1
    Hack a Day asked cold boot team member Jacob Appelbaum what he thought of the approach.

    Here's Jake's unedited response:

    Yeah, it's not a solution. It simply seeks to make it more obscure but an attacker would certainly still be able to pull off the attack.

    From what is on that blog, there's still a full keyschedule in memory at this time. This is how we reconstruct the key, the redundant information in memory; it's not just the 128/256 bit key itself. For older methods, they needed the actual specific key bits but we don't need them because we recreate them.

    Basically, the CPU is acting as a ghetto crypto co-processer. Emphasis on ghetto. It's a nice suggestion but the devil is in the details and sadly the details in this case aren't really up to snuff. It's a bogus solution.

  27. Re:Write a summary that's useful, kthx. by eat+here_get+gas · · Score: 1

    10 of the last 11 posts were by AC's, the last 7 in a streak. WTF? why bother making folks sign up for accounts, let's all be AC's by default?

    --
    the significance of a signature is insignificant
  28. Only needed when the machine is locked by Fred+Ferrigno · · Score: 1

    The scenario is that someone steals a running, but locked laptop, and wants to read your encryption keys stored in RAM. If it's not running, then the encryption keys aren't in RAM. If it's not locked, then you're SOL anyway.

    So the idea is to move the keys out of RAM and into the cache temporarily while the machine is locked. When you log back in, the cache gets re-enabled so you won't notice any difference in performance.

    1. Re:Only needed when the machine is locked by thegrassyknowl · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The scenario is that someone steals a running, but locked laptop

      Let's assume a REAL scenario. The real scenario is not everyone runs Windows and not everyone runs laptops, and not everyone uses X86 architecture. Just because the screen is locked doesn't mean the encrypted volume is not in use. Come to think of it, Windows + Laptop + Locked doesn't even mean it's not in use. The cold boot attack is also more useful against desktop machines because it's much easier to freeze up the memory good because you usually have unrestricted access to most of its surface area.

      Example: I leave my computer calculating possible attack vectors for that exhaust port and lock the screen while I go make a coffee; it's going to take a couple of hours to compute, you see. I'm in the next room but it's possible that I am raided and the computer seized before I can get back to it and kill it off. In this case the key is very certainly loaded on the machine - either in RAM or cache, we can't be 100% sure. The key is also very certainly required to be there, and we can't cripple the machine with cache tricks because it's actually working on sensitive calculations. I'd suggest this is a likely scenario for most users of encrypted volumes.

      Sure, if you were 250% paranoid you wouldn't walk away from your computer without first ensuring the key space in RAM was DoD wiped, but find me someone _that_ paranoid.

      --
      I drink to make other people interesting!
    2. Re:Only needed when the machine is locked by Fred+Ferrigno · · Score: 1

      Just because the screen is locked doesn't mean the encrypted volume is not in use.

      It will if you want to use access highly sensitive information on that machine.

      The cold boot attack is also more useful against desktop machines because it's much easier to freeze up the memory good because you usually have unrestricted access to most of its surface area.

      Desktop machines are typically covered by site security. Traveling diplomats, CEOs, dissidents, etc. want to be able to access their sensitive data in situations where they don't completely control site security. This gives them some additional protection if implemented with secure user practices (i.e. locking your workstation whenever you are not present).

      I leave my computer calculating possible attack vectors for that exhaust port and lock the screen while I go make a coffee; it's going to take a couple of hours to compute, you see.

      You do that on a separate server under physical lockdown. Obviously this only makes sense for interactive user sessions rather than anything computationally intensive.

      Sure, if you were 250% paranoid you wouldn't walk away from your computer without first ensuring the key space in RAM was DoD wiped, but find me someone _that_ paranoid.

      How about, I dunno, the DoD? I don't ever plan to use this on my box. I don't use full disk encryption either, but I can understand why other people would.

    3. Re:Only needed when the machine is locked by thegrassyknowl · · Score: 1

      secure user practices

      You do that on a separate server under physical lockdown

      Are you so naive to assume that the user will actually follow secure practice all of the time?

      Are you so naive to believe that physical lockdown will save you from an invasion by the feds/rival drug dealers/etc?

      --
      I drink to make other people interesting!
    4. Re:Only needed when the machine is locked by Fred+Ferrigno · · Score: 1

      Are you so naive to assume that the user will actually follow secure practice all of the time?

      Are you so pessimistic to say that there's no value to making security more effective if it isn't 100% effective?

      Are you so naive to believe that physical lockdown will save you from an invasion by the feds/rival drug dealers/etc?

      Are you incapable of seeing the benefits for someone who isn't a drug dealer (who needs to do hours of data computation for some reason)?

      I don't know what's so hard to understand about this. No, this is not something you, personally, would ever need or want. No, it won't work in every case. But it does offer some additional protection to some users who aren't you.

    5. Re:Only needed when the machine is locked by Sven+Tuerpe · · Score: 1

      The scenario is that someone steals a running, but locked laptop, and wants to read your encryption keys stored in RAM. If it's not running, then the encryption keys aren't in RAM.

      This is, by the way, only the easier part of the threat landscape. If the computer is not running, nothing prevents an attacker from tampering with the hardware or software in such a way that a second visit to the system yields any password or key used.

      --
      http://erichsieht.wordpress.com/category/english/
    6. Re:Only needed when the machine is locked by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Sure, if you were 250% paranoid you wouldn't walk away from your computer without first ensuring the key space in RAM was DoD wiped, but find me someone _that_ paranoid.

      I can't. They're all hiding underground in Faraday cages.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re:Only needed when the machine is locked by thegrassyknowl · · Score: 1

      I lol'd

      --
      I drink to make other people interesting!
    8. Re:Only needed when the machine is locked by thegrassyknowl · · Score: 1

      It's very simple. The sort of people who will be the targets of cold boot attacks want absolute security. This "solution" is trying to prevent cold boot attacks.

      Your average Joe Blow doesn't care. Truecrypt protects his business secrets and photos of his family if his laptop ever gets nicked. It is unlikely that your average laptop thief will do anything more than reinstall Windows on it (if even that) and try and flog it off for a few quid. Joe Blow also does let his laptop work while the screen is locked; downloading, recomputing a spreadsheet, tagging his photos in Picassa, etc.

      Your average terrorist/drug dealer/etc cares, and he is the target of the attack. If someone is going to raid him all they need to is watch to see when he unlocks his screen and this "solution" is defeated.

      The middle ground is me, and most other computer-tech types. I frequently lock my screen while the computer is busy and I'm off for coffee, even when I'm using the laptop at home. Perhaps I'm receiving a large file. Perhaps compiling software, who cares. The computer still does work while I'm not there. I don't use full disk encryption for anything either; I'm not too fussed about my laptop being stolen 'cos there's not much on it and I am always physically within a few feet of it unless I'm at home.

      In any case, if the computer needs to do any work the key is in RAM with this solution. If that task takes a while then you have the key in RAM for a long time. Even if you're sitting in front of it that's a reasonable window for someone to raid you and seize control.

      Your other options is cripple the cache and basically basically kneecap the machine, making all your nasty operations take hundreds of times longer.

      You've either got the security risk of key in RAM or the performance overhead of crippled cache. This "solution" doesn't solve any problem; Joe Blow and Computer-Geek don't care all that much, and Osama-Bin-Terrorist still has exactly the same security issues as he always had when he was accessing his encrypted files.

      Doesn't unmounting the encrypted volume and zeroing the keyspace in RAM when the user locks the screen solve this same problem anyway?

      I haven't even touched on the fact: if you have the volume mounted and opened a few files then there is likely residue of those files in RAM. Preventing access to the encrypted volume may stop someone accessing the remainder of the files, but a scan of RAM could very well reveal incriminating evidence anyway.

      --
      I drink to make other people interesting!
    9. Re:Only needed when the machine is locked by Fred+Ferrigno · · Score: 1

      It's very simple. The sort of people who will be the targets of cold boot attacks want absolute security.

      It's very simple. First, you set up an impossible standard that no security system could ever meet and no practical system even attempts to meet. Then you go on to define several use cases that are completely irrelevant and ignore the obvious one:

      Assistant Secretary of State for East Asian and Pacific Affairs Jane Doe is traveling to China for trade negotiations. Her laptop contains various briefing documents related to the negotiation and uses full disk encryption to protect the files and the OS itself. She only needs access to review or edit the documents and does not need to perform long computational tasks. Knowing that the Chinese intelligence service regularly attempts to acquire such confidential data through clandestine means but is never so brazen as to use force on a visiting diplomat, Jane always makes sure to keep the laptop locked when she is not using it.

      In any case, if the computer needs to do any work the key is in RAM with this solution. If that task takes a while then you have the key in RAM for a long time.

      The CPU cache can be addressed as memory, so execution continues, just at a slower pace.

      Doesn't unmounting the encrypted volume and zeroing the keyspace in RAM when the user locks the screen solve this same problem anyway?

      From what I understand, this is difficult because the boot volume is encrypted and unmounting the boot volume causes all sorts of trouble.

      I haven't even touched on the fact: if you have the volume mounted and opened a few files then there is likely residue of those files in RAM.

      "Doesn't [closing the file] and zeroing the [buffers] in RAM when the user locks the screen solve this same problem anyway?"

    10. Re:Only needed when the machine is locked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Doesn't [closing the file] and zeroing the [buffers] in RAM when the user locks the screen solve this same problem anyway?"

      Assuming that we all use a high security version of whatever program you use to open documents. I am assuming that your average office suite doesn't do just that because it's just not concerned about security.

      Then you go on to define several use cases that are completely irrelevant and ignore the obvious one:

      I would have thought your use case is less relevant that the others supplied!

  29. Firewire by lord_sarpedon · · Score: 1

    Cold boot attacks on laptops are interesting and all, but me, I'd just use the firewire port

    It is applicable on a smaller number of laptops, but you also have write access and the machine continues running (less suspicious). Somewhere (perhaps in my link, can't remember) I saw a nifty python script that patches winlogon to allow unlock by entering an incorrect password. If you're an exceptionally slick bastard, you might squeeze a keylogger/downloader/etc into some dark corner of RAM and hijack some unlucky thread. On Windows machines, who knows, maybe we'll see a convenient hardware dongle to assrape the DRM path while it's looking the other way...

    Don't even have to move the laptop somewhere secluded to rip it apart. Just plug in your 'music player.'

    --
    "Strangers have the best candy" -Me
    1. Re:Firewire by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      I rewired the firewire port on my secure machine to meet its name better. Go ahead, plug your thing in. It gets 110V AC.

  30. I am terrified of this attack vector by Daimanta · · Score: 1

    That's why I set my thermometer to 30 C and leave it on all day.

    --
    Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power lost.
  31. I have a better protection against cold-boot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lock all computer components in ballistic steel case using internal, welded piano hinges.

    Booby trap the mechanism in several places with small charges (like those used to sever bolts on rocket stages on a smaller scale)

    place these warnings on the side of the box.

    Armor the hard drive bay against the blasts, and have a retractable "key" which can be used to cut the link between the input ports and the motherboard when you leave.

    Anyone who tries to access the components for cold boot attacks gets a sting, perhaps some shrapnel at the skin level, and then gets to stare at the powder that was once the ram, cpu, and major avenues on the motherboard.

  32. Re:Write a summary that's useful, kthx. by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

    No kidding. I've always wondered how people can be on the Internet, and not know what the heck something is talking about.

    You've got the combined intelligence of the entire planet at your fingertips, and you can't figure out what a "cold boot attack" is?

    Although it does raise the question: How do you search the Internet for tips on how to search the Internet?

    --
    "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
  33. Easy fix by jopie_b · · Score: 1

    This does not sound like such a hard problem,

    Just erase the decryption key from memory when the computer goes to sleep (or lock screen) and ask the user to reenter the decryptkey on wake up of the system.
    Of course this requires that the operating system needed to get out of lock is not on the cryptodisk, but there are solutions for that.
    - Only use a crypto-disk for data.
    - Put wake-up portion of operating system in RAM disk.

    Now the disk-encryption program just needs to be really careful where it stores the key in RAM and you're done.
    For a server this will not work, but for laptops I don't see why not....

    1. Re:Easy fix by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately operating systems don't behave too well when you play with disk availability like this. It's also very dangerous to use the encrypted disk only for data, since the OS and applications rarely cooperate, but rather leave many traces of your actions on the unencrypted disk.

  34. Re:Write a summary that's useful, kthx. by Thinboy00 · · Score: 1

    Although it does raise the question: How do you search the Internet for tips on how to search the Internet?

    You click the help button (@ google.com).

    --
    $ make available
  35. Give George Bush the Cold Boot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    nuf sed.

    -1 Troll/Offtopic

  36. Some issues by Mr+Z · · Score: 1

    In many cases, all you need is the right Firewire device to scan memory, for one thing.

    The other is that saving the keys in the register file doesn't help much if context switches can still happen. Guess where the keys get saved on a context switch? RAM, naturally. And don't forget paging behavior--although if the page holding the keys was allocated within the kernel with kmalloc(), you're ok there.

    If I were going to try to brute-force a key based on a chilled RAM, I'd just dump the entire contents of RAM as a set of 32-bit words, sort it, remove the dupes, and use that as a dictionary. On a machine with 4GB of RAM, that'd probably net me a dictionary with only a dozen million "words," tops. Say, for the sake of argument, there are 2^24 unique 32-bit words.

    With this "dictionary", I could then try to brute-force all the 128-bit AES keys picking 4 entries out of the dictionary. That nets me a keyspace of 2^(24*4) = 2^96. That's still huge, but I've truncated the keyspace dramatically. If I wanted to squeeze it further, I'd take as much RAM out of the system prior to dumping as I could to limit my dictionary size. Less RAM is sometimes better.

    If I wanted to get WAY smarter about it, though, I'd realize that the key is probably stored contiguously or nearly contiguously, so I'd only pick combinations of words that were near each other in the original dump. In that case, the key space drops down to something I could probably try over lunch.

  37. Much easier/safer solution: Register-only storage? by Terje+Mathisen · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In the day of multi-core everywhere, a possible solution seems to be:

    Dedicate one core to handle both screen unlock and disk encryption, but only when locking the machine.

    On this core I would use one (128 bit) or two (256 bit) SSE registers to hold the disk key, and another register to hold the unlock credentials, then setup a static communication area where the other core(s) can leave messages, in particular an attempt to unlock the machine.

    The dedicated lock core would stay in a loop, comparing the content with the unlock creds (i.e. hashed/salted password) and write the disk key back to memory upon receipt of a valid entry.

    Using this approach means that you don't need to mess around with MTRRs or other cache control instructions, you just need to schedule everything else onto the other core(s), including all interrupts (which would (lazily?) writeback SSE register content on a task switch).

    OTOH, there are of course some obvious downsides to this approach as well, in particular the fact that the locked core cannot go into a regular sleep mode, if said mode requires an interrupt to get back out of. :-(

    Terje

    --
    "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"
  38. Map to nonexistent RAM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It seems it is not possible to 'lock' lines to prevent them from being written back.

    Now if they could be mapped to nonexistent memory, wouldn't that prevent them from being written out? I guess the keys would be lost in the error if that were to happen, or they would become vulnerable being dumped to a stack trace, but this way of gaining cache control might be worth exploring.

    Locking one 'way' of the cache like embedded CPUs can would be a lot easier :)

  39. Solved problem: Encrypted disk key storage by Terje+Mathisen · · Score: 1

    As long as (most) disk activity can be stopped while the screen is locked, there is a solution which is both easy and safe:

    The disk key in any reasonable full disk encryption setup is stored in encrypted form, meaning that the disk password is required to decrypt/retrieve it, right?

    So what's stopping us from "simply" freezing all disk activity, then erasing the disk key from memory? (Keep the encrypted key from the disk master block if you want to, otherwise just re-read it when needed.)

    Only after entry of a valid disk user/password combo can the real disk key be decrypted, so until that happens any "Cold Boot" attack will be just as useless as against a machine which has been powered all the way down.

    The only question seems to be if it is actually possible to stop _all_ disk activity, or if a small unencrypted partition must be set aside for absolutely required background activity?

    Terje

    --
    "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"
  40. Re:Write a summary that's useful, kthx. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not an obscure thing, you are just ignorant of major technology news. Perhaps the summary should define "CPU" and "linux" for you as well, just in case you don't what they are either.

    You were doing so well until you wrote this paragraph. There's no need to disparage someone else just because you know something that they do not.

  41. Re:Write a summary that's useful, kthx. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    O RLY? Help button where? I see no help button...

  42. Re:Write a summary that's useful, kthx. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is default, until you login anyway

  43. 5 years and waiting... by Archtech · · Score: 1

    "Could this really turn out to be a working solution?"

    You'll find out a few years down the line, when your computer finishes booting with its cache disabled. Modern CPUs have caches for good reasons: without them they don't run very fast.

    --
    I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
  44. Re:Write a summary that's useful, kthx. by eat+here_get+gas · · Score: 1

    ouch...

    --
    the significance of a signature is insignificant
  45. Re:Write a summary that's useful, kthx. by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

    "google.com? What the heck is that? Don't give me all this technobabble crap.
    All I want to do is find something on the internets."

    See my point?

    --
    "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
  46. Random Writes? by nicodoggie · · Score: 1

    If I understood right, the main problem is that even though an entire disk is encrypted, unencrypted data is often stored in RAM, and this fact could be used to access private data stored in the computer. But wouldn't this be solved by writing random bits to RAM at shutdown?

    Two questions:

    1. Will writing random data on memory wear it out too quickly?
    2. What are the drawbacks of just filling memory with random bits upon shutdown?
    1. Re:Random Writes? by cpghost · · Score: 1

      The problem is that an attacker won't shutdown the machine, but just power-cycle it immediately. The OS has no chance to scramble the memory before this happens.

      --
      cpghost at Cordula's Web.
  47. I thought cold boot attacks only happended in Iraq by SpaceTaxi · · Score: 1

    What is the world coming to?

  48. Re:Write a summary that's useful, kthx. by DavidTC · · Score: 1

    You could probably type 'How do I search the internet?' in your address bar and get something useful.

    --
    If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  49. Time for a new sig? by tqft · · Score: 1

    Might have found it

    "out a way of forcing down patches, and figuring
    out what the effect of those patches will be,
    de-conflicting their effects, and having them
    applied.
    "

    http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.bsa.org/resources/2002-03-16.99.pdf
    In case http://www.mediafire.com/?aj093xoyjyw

    I for one want to test to see if my machine has a tpm chip (suspect so) and unlock it to use the capabilities to do some calculations can you point me towards some stuff to do that?

    --
    The Singularity is closer than you think
    Quant
    1. Re:Time for a new sig? by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure of any free or 3rd party programs to check for an on-board TPM chips but the TPM.MSC command snap-in in Vista will show you.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    2. Re:Time for a new sig? by tqft · · Score: 1

      Thanks.

      But linux (ubuntu) only here at home.

      Have asked over at ubuntuforums and see if I can turn anything up.

      --
      The Singularity is closer than you think
      Quant
    3. Re:Time for a new sig? by tqft · · Score: 1

      In case anyone cares

      tpm_tools is available in the ubuntu (intrepid at least repositories

      and this post
      https://www.grounation.org/index.php?2008/07/04/8-how-to-use-a-tpm-with-linux

      also see http://sourceforge.net/projects/trousers and http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/hardy/man1/tpm_version.1.html

      No promises or guarantees of anything working or damage being done

      --
      The Singularity is closer than you think
      Quant
    4. Re:Time for a new sig? by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Thankyouthankyouthankyou :)
      Yep, that's the one, Trusted Computing to defend us against Osama bin Laden himself. LOL

      About a week ago it dawned on me to look on Waybackmachine, but I got sidetracked. Doh doh double-doh.

      It looks like you found the files that you need to access the chip. I don't have a chip in my system so I can't help much on firing it up. I've been studying the tech-specs and any other info I can dig up, all theory and doing anti-advocacy, no coding yet. From the software side the chip is almost impregnable. Seriously. And this from someone who considers ALL software DRM schemes inherently crackable by definition. The chip and the design are insane, and they work.

      On the other hand I think I see some fairly soft attack vectors on the hardware side, at least until they roll the TPM inside the CPU chip itself - then things get more interesting. My prime plan is that I think it should be possible to cut or short one or more lines on the TPM chip to effectively deactivate it or at least isolate it, boot into custom control software, flip the switch, and just feed the chip the same sequence of values it would load during the authentic Trusted boot sequence. A flip-flop version of that would be to preform the authentic Trusted boot, then hit the switch to isolate the chip from incoming signals so it retains its "Trusted" state, then reboot the PC into your control system and reconnect the chip. Either way you get total control of the computer and the chip will cheerfully do all of the crypto work to need it to do to fake the Trust system, and it will cheerfully show you essentially everything you need to see. The hardware hack should be pretty easy, it's the custom control software that will need significant development. Much of that should be a relatively straight forward derivation from the Trusted Software Stack source that they've published.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    5. Re:Time for a new sig? by tqft · · Score: 1

      Actually my interest is not in using the chip in a "Trusted" state but whether I can use it for some related calculations

      Basically if it has at least a few big hardware registers and some appropriate and fast enough hardwired crypto functions then I can maybe cut lots of time on some calcs I want to do.

      Don't worry I am not try to do the improbable and I don't have a magic factoring algorithm to test,

      --
      The Singularity is closer than you think
      Quant
    6. Re:Time for a new sig? by Alsee · · Score: 1

      I don't know the exact performance for the chip, but you will likely find it extremely disappointing. Even with a low end CPU you will get much better performance just running your crypto directly on the CPU. I recall reading that on some TPMs a single RSA operation might take a half second or more. The TPM is targeted to be a cheap chip, with Trust-enforcement being the design target. The target processing capacity is adequate to securely log the system state, to securely report and sign that system state, and to encrypt/decrypt the keys being passed into and out of the Trusted software. The chip was not intended to preform any sort of bulk encryption/decryption of data, just key management.

      I guess you could try to parallel process, offloading some crypto operations to the TPM while the CPU does other stuff. If the CPU has to stop and wait for some slow crypto result then the 'parallel processing' performance would well be worse than just single processing on the CPU.

      If you do get your code running I would be most interested to hear what sort of performance you get out of it. If you do, feel free to post a reply to any post of mine anywhere.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    7. Re:Time for a new sig? by Sven+Tuerpe · · Score: 1

      My prime plan is that I think it should be possible to cut or short one or more lines on the TPM chip to effectively deactivate it or at least isolate it, boot into custom control software, flip the switch, and just feed the chip the same sequence of values it would load during the authentic Trusted boot sequence.

      This attack is known as the TPM reset attack.

      --
      http://erichsieht.wordpress.com/category/english/
    8. Re:Time for a new sig? by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the link on the Reset attack. I figured other people had spotted it as well :)

      I wonder if anyone has done the reverse-reset attack I also mentioned... actually load the system and TPM into the trusted state, isolate the TPM communication line(s) to preserve that authentically generated TPM state, and then preform a reset on the CPU instead of the TPM.

      The reverse-reset is less flexible, but it is in some ways simpler and it trivially defeats the OSLO Bootloader (mentioned in your link) or almost any other technique against the reset attack.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  50. Capacitance and radio waves. by sowth · · Score: 1

    You mean how the "capacitors" are just etched parallel wires and the silicon is used as the dielectric? (or something like that) So the transistor will also have capacitance because the traces which make it will also have the same effect? This sounds correct to me...

    Sort of how any wire is an antenna, because an antenna is just a wire. Radio waves are just electro-magnetic waves which will create a small electric current in any conducting substance. And a modulating electric current will create radio waves. In fact, this is why computers can interfere with your TV. It all fits together, doesn't it?

    1. Re:Capacitance and radio waves. by sparcnut · · Score: 0

      You mean how the "capacitors" are just etched parallel wires and the silicon is used as the dielectric?

      Not just parallel-plate capacitances exist, there are also significant junction capacitances. Reverse biased PN junctions, basically diodes, are used to isolate the individual devices from the substrate; every reverse-biased diode is also a (nonlinear) capacitor.

      --
      perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10);'
  51. Re:Much easier/safer solution: Register-only stora by shonnon · · Score: 1

    What about using the performance monitor counter registers? I just thought of this earlier today, so I haven't had the time to investigate further, but as far as I know, those registers should only change if performance monitoring is actually set up via the event selection registers; otherwise you can just store a value into them and read it back later. Depending on the CPU model, you can store either 32 or 40 bits per register. They aren't included in context switches, so they should never be written to RAM, and access to them from user space can be disabled (in fact I think it is by default). But I don't know if they survive when the CPU is put to sleep, or if they get overwritten for any other reason.

    Assuming they can be used to store information, we could put the AES (or blowfish or whatever) key into them and use it to regenerate the round keys when needed, erasing them from RAM again after a short timeout. Or the registers could be used to store the key for a simpler cipher, which is then used to encrypt the round keys in RAM. Even just putting random bits into the PMC registers and XORing them with the round keys would provide some protection, and would be very fast. There's generally quite a bit of redundancy in the round keys, though, which might give an attacker enough information to figure something out if, say, every 128 bits of the round key table is XORed with the same value.

    Obviously this breaks the use of performance monitoring (although some CPU flavors have 18 or more PMC registers, so it should still be possible to use the ones that aren't storing crypto stuff), and will have a performance impact on encrypted disk I/O (regenerating or decrypting the round keys before you can encrypt or decrypt the disk data). But the performance impact should be MUCH less than disabling the memory cache. And I don't think very many people actually use the performance monitoring features of the CPU on their personal machines, so that shouldn't be much of a loss (and anyone who does use them can just skip this idea).