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EC Considering Removing Internet Explorer From Windows

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on from the epic-struggles dept.

Itsabouttime writes "In a preliminary ruling, the European Commission told Microsoft that linking Internet Explorer to its dominant Windows operating system violates EC rules. The EC's ruling was triggered by a complaint from IE rival Opera. Microsoft could seek to offer a Windows version without IE, as it did in the EC's 2004 ruling on Windows Media Player."

50 of 827 comments (clear)

  1. Slow Justice is No Justice by alain94040 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Let's look at the facts:

    the EC said tying Internet Explorer with Windows provides Internet Explorer with an artificial distribution advantage

    That's stating the obvious.

    Now check out the timeline on this procedure. Microsoft was accused of tying Windows Media Player to Windows in 2004. That's what the current case is based on.

    According to a Microsoft spokesperson:

    Under EU procedure, the European Commission will not make a final determination until after it receives and assesses Microsoftâ(TM)s response

    In other words, expect this to last another few years before anything happens. By then, Internet Explorer will have been renamed Windows 8 and Microsoft will argue that the lawsuit is moot. Do consumers win? Lawyers do, that's for sure. Slow justice is no justice.

    Expect Microsoft to offer to ship a version of Windows without any web browser. So you won't be able to download firefox either!

    --
    FairSoftware.net -- where geeks are their own boss

    1. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by MozeeToby · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I guess I'm confused about what Opera expects to get out of this. I know I, for one, would be pretty pissed off to open up my new computer and not have any way to go download Firefox. What exactly are they hoping to gain? Are they really arguing that new computers should ship with no internet browser what so ever?

    2. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by nmb3000 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Most likely it will just ship with a second or third browser installed.

      And how will Microsoft select the alternatives? If they were forced to include other browsers, every dinky browser author and company would be pining to get their browser included in the alternatives list, threatening lawsuits if Microsoft doesn't comply. It would also mean that, since the software is supplied by Microsoft as part of Windows, Microsoft has to keep it updated and has to accept a certain level of liability.

      The real solution to this is for Microsoft to allow OEMs like Dell, HP, etc to include other browsers on new machines. This would give users the same choices they have with regards to other bundled software and it also leaves the market open, for example, to allow Mozilla or Opera to pay to have their software installed on all Dell machines. This would also prevent Microsoft from needing to keep the first-party bundled browser up-to-date with service packs and updates.

      The only downside is that people who buy retail/OEM versions of Windows will still need to use IE to download their choice browser, but I still fail to see how that impacts anything. If the complete failure of Windows N has taught us anything it should be that customers really don't want a crippled out-of-the-box operating system.

      --
      "What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
      /)
    3. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by gravos · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's an ideological thing, nothing more. For us nerdy types, who cares what browser is bundled with the OS as long as the user has full choice to download and use whatever browser we want. The problem is that people are lazy and will use whatever is bundled because it is already there. IE gains marketshare just because nobody cares enough to switch.

      But you're right. Practically speaking, who cares.

      --
      This game will waste your life. Don't clicky!
    4. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by Ironsides · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You could use FTP to grab FireFox off of ftp.mozilla.org Then again, someone would probably sue for distributing an FTP client with MS Windows.

      --
      Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
    5. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I guess I'm confused about what Opera expects to get out of this.

      That's very understandable given the assumptions made by both the summary and the post you're responding to.

      I know I, for one, would be pretty pissed off to open up my new computer and not have any way to go download Firefox.

      That's not going to happen. No remedy is going to stop Dell or HP from bundling what they want, just Microsoft. From the end user perspective it means you might get a different browser pre-installed and if you build your own computer from components you may have to burn a CD with a browser on it.

      What exactly are they hoping to gain?

      Opera's complaint specifically addressed the fact that MS's abuse has resulted in a huge portion of the Web no longer being standards compliant and that this was part of MS's intention as revealed by their internal memos. I suspect Opera hopes for several things possibly including, Windows shipping with multiple browsers and MS being forced to make IE standards compliant and supporting a reasonable level of new standards on par with all the other browsers. Both moves would significantly benefit Opera both in market share and because they would not have to try to write a noncompliant mode for their browser to deal with all the pages designed to work with IE instead of standards and there would no longer be such a barrier to companies looking to switch browsers. Note, Opera said nothing about forcing MS to ship a version without IE, that was just other people's assumption based upon the EU's failed attempt at remedying the media player market.

      Are they really arguing that new computers should ship with no internet browser what so ever?

      No. That's just something people who don't know what they're talking about and who such a ruling would affect keep mentioning. Ignore them. It makes no sense to anyone who even slightly understands antitrust law and this case.

    6. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by arbiter1 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      just a thought, a good idea. have MS bring a laptop in to the court room, or a couple of them with a clean install of windows without IE and let them TRY to browse the internet and see what happens.

    7. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by MindlessAutomata · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If nobody cares, then what right do you have to make them care...?

      Let's build the New Socialist Man while we're at it. The EU can be in charge.

    8. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by AuMatar · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Microsoft wouldn't- the computer manufacturer would. It would be up to HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc to choose what to bundle. Including the choice of IE. The point being that the browsers would compete in a fair market, rather than IE being installed by default and as the default app.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    9. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by icebraining · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And how do you know it's URI? Of course, you could go to another PC to get it, but then again you could just download firefox there and copy it. So no, FTP is useless here.

      --
      Dilbert RSS feed
    10. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by linebackn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's more than that. IE can not be uninstalled.

      Even if OEMs choose to include any other browser(s), they currently must alway have IE regardless if they want it or not.

      And there is a strong tenancy to not have multiple applications that do the same thing. So which browser winds up getting installed? Right, IE. Because there is no choice.

    11. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by drsmithy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Basic FTP clients aren't exactly a major source of income, so I don't think any sort of anti-trust suit would get anywhere.

      I'd be willing to bet there are about as many people paying for FTP clients on Windows as there are Web Browsers.

    12. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by icebraining · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree with OS X, but Ubuntu is a little difficult. First, Firefox isn't a Canonical product, so it's a little different. Second, and more importantly, Ubuntu is distributed by free download. The only thing the EC could do would be "forbid" them to have European servers distributing Ubuntu, but couldn't prevent them from distributing to the EU from a foreign server.

      And one great problem with IE (which they discuss in TA) is using closed and proprietary extensions like Silverlight. I bet if the IE respected the W3C standards they wouldn't be so bothered.

      --
      Dilbert RSS feed
    13. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      you think mozilla makes it's millions *selling* firefox??

    14. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by Darundal · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Then they could just leave trident in, and take out the IE browser itself. Or just offer an option to remove IE (not remove access to it, remove it) and leave trident. Or, an option with a big warning so that you could uninstall trident if you wanted.

    15. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by Joe+U · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That is because IE is not just the browser frontend, it is an entire framework that a lot of third party applications depend on.

      This was done intentionally by Microsoft, even going so far as making important components like Explorer depend on it. This isn't really the case any more for most of Windows, but the third party programs still need it, so removing it would break a lot of programs people use.

      Back in 1995, this was very important to getting the Internet to the users and people seem to forget that. You didn't have many choices back then, especially if you wanted to write an app that used HTML in any meaningful way. It was pretty original to use HTML inside applications as a simple object, and it made coding these applications very easy.

      Nowadays everyone and their brother has a HTML renderer, so it's moot, but it would break all the legacy apps that use the IE components.

      What Opera and other companies really want is IE off the start menu and the components left in the OS.

    16. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Cool! I love this. I make an alternative text editor, and I would love to make it the default for handling .txt and .log files and replace notepad.exe. How do I sign up to get my text editor in line for this special treatment? After all, if I was forced to compete on the merits of my text editor (which is actually a little better, faster at opening large files, and more secure than notepad) I wouldn't get to deploy many copies because the built in notepad is "good enough" for most people and nobody seems to know about my editor.

    17. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by droopycom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Opera's complaint specifically addressed the fact that MS's abuse has resulted in a huge portion of the Web no longer being standards compliant and that this was part of MS's intention as revealed by their internal memos. I suspect Opera hopes for several things possibly including, Windows shipping with multiple browsers and MS being forced to make IE standards compliant and supporting a reasonable level of new standards on par with all the other browsers. Both moves would significantly benefit Opera both in market share and because they would not have to try to write a noncompliant mode for their browser to deal with all the pages designed to work with IE instead of standards and there would no longer be such a barrier to companies looking to switch browsers.

      Firefox or Apple with Safari didnt need a lawsuit. They are doing fine. They are standard compliant.
      And IE keeps loosing market shares.

      It looks like Opera is convinced that their product is the best, and its only Microsoft fault if they are not on everybody's desktop.

      But maybe it has to with the fact that their browser wasn't free for a long time.

      And maybe they are just not that good, maybe their product is not much better compared to the other ones, or maybe their Marketing failed.. who knows?

      Maybe they didnt realize that a browser product by itself has little value for the end user (not enough value to pay for it in any case). And that its all about the devices and the content.

    18. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Firefox or Apple with Safari didnt need a lawsuit. They are doing fine. They are standard compliant. And IE keeps loosing[sic] market shares.

      First, there is no lawsuit, just a compliant about a violation of criminal law. It is more akin to reporting a robbery to the cops than suing someone over a dispute. Second is the question of if IE losing market share as rapidly as it should in a free market or if it is being propped up. Is IE significantly better than Opera, enough to justify it's 70% market share even with its technological inferiority? If it wasn't bundled with Windows would it have that large of share? If MS had not intentionally broken standards to create IE only Web pages would it have that much market share?

      I'd also like to address your assertion that Firefox and Safari are standards compliant. They mostly are, but they also spent millions creating work arounds so they can handle non-standards compliant pages such as MS schemed to create as a way to harm competitors. These aren't even facts in doubt as they were established when the US investigated then convicted them of this same crime... the crime they never stopped committing.

      It looks like Opera is convinced that their product is the best, and its only Microsoft fault if they are not on everybody's desktop.

      No, it looks like Opera wants a fair fight. After all, if IE is a better browser users will pick it over Opera, right? Demanding other companies obey the law is not asking for favoritism.

      And maybe they are just not that good, maybe their product is not much better compared to the other ones, or maybe their Marketing failed.. who knows?

      Nobody, because the free market was not allowed to judge because MS broke the law. All they're asking for is the chance to fight on even ground so users or OEMs can pick what they think is best instead of having a default and a Web full of pages that only work in one browser.

      Maybe they didnt realize that a browser product by itself has little value for the end user (not enough value to pay for it in any case). And that its all about the devices and the content.

      Current browsers don't have a lot to offer, but that's because current Web pages are still using decade old technologies to display pages because one particular browser with most of the market has refused to implement any new technologies that might allow users to have a Web capable of making Windows less essential. If IE were to disappear tomorrow replaced by any other browser or combination, the Web would suddenly leap forward technologically and you could run Web apps, view video and audio using standards, develop Web pages in half the time, and use vector graphics to deliver better quality graphics using less bandwidth. MS's criminal actions are more than inconveniencing Opera, they are crippling the Web to keep user locked into Windows.

    19. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think the major point is that the same rules should not apply to Microsoft because they have a monopoly position in the OS market (or at least a lot of people see them that way).

      I agree with most of your post, but your wording here is a bit misleading. Everyone has to follow the same laws. It is illegal for anyone to tie a monopolized product to a product in another pre-exiting market. That applies to MS and Apple and Sony and every other company and these laws have been enforced against many companies and all these companies have lawyers who told them this long ago. Microsoft can't bundle Windows and IE and when they did it they knew they were breaking the law. Apple may or may not be able to tie iPods to the iTunes Music Store, dependent only on whether the iPod has enough influence to constitute a monopoly and the EU has been investigating that very possibility.

      With a company with offerings in as many categories as Microsoft has, it's very easy for them to tie strong, popular products to weak or new ones. To an extent this is their prerogative, as any manufacturer can make their products work best in their own environment.

      Note, this behavior becomes illegal as soon as the "strong" product moves into the realm of having monopoly influence (usually around 70% market share). For MS, there is no question that Windows is a monopoly since the EU courts have already made that determination in previous cases.

      I agree that it would be absurd to have an OS without a web browser at this point, but calling for equal treatment of different OS players would require that the playing field was level, which is not the case.

      There is no technical reason why Windows can't ship without a browser or engine and leave it to OEMs to pick the browser and plug-in engine they desire. This is quite different from end users getting a computer without a browser pre-installed, which no one (outside of the clueless) has suggested.

    20. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What would happen if Microsoft pulled a "standard compliant" IE (or at least one that matched Firefox for complaintness) out of their ass?

      Web developers and users would rejoice and the Web would leap forward technologically allowing for many new applications and uses of the Web with a lot less effort and bandwidth. If only

      It would force an all new attack position for the anit-MS folks...

      If MS stopped breaking this law in this case, gee we'd have to complain about all their other criminal behaviors. Your postulation is like asking what if the mafia stopped extorting money from shopkeepers in the Bronx, then the cops wold have to arrest them one of their other criminal enterprises.

    21. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by bigman2003 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You're on crack...

      The fact that the IE market share is declining is enough to demonstrate to reasonable people that the public IS aware that there are alternatives to using IE, and they ARE able to use these alternatives.

      I've read your posts in this thread, and your whining is incredible annoying. You compare Microsoft's web browser to a murderer killing people.

      You also repeat over and over that Microsoft is keeping us 8 years behind in website technology. That's a load of crap. Who added the non-standard features to their browser that makes AJAX possible?

      It was the ubiquity of a browser included in Windows that opened up the web to most of the world. People now realize that there are other browsers available, and they are branching out, no problem.

      If Internet Explorer blocked people from downloading other browsers, I would see the point. But otherwise it's just a bunch of complaining from a few also-rans.

      --
      No reason to lie.
    22. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I see, and when IE is taken out of the windows install and the new user is provided with discs containing Opera, Firefox, Chrome and IE, which will they choose to install? The ones who don't care (i.e. the ones who are scared of the computer and just want to get back to myspace) will pick the one carrying the same logo as was on the splash screen when they started the computer.

      I have an ideology too, and mine is that I want my computer to do as much out of the box as possible, with the minimum of fuss. If the operating system manufacturer has included extra apps to do things that I want to do, great. If those apps are surpassed enough by something third party that it's worth the minimal effort taken to switch, I'll switch,
      I suspect that most people who are willing to use 3rd party apps feel the same - 3rd party apps which suck don't have the right to try and poach users from the OS manufacturer's apps by stopping users having that default and hoping to bamboozle them into installing the suckier 3rd party app. If your app is good people will use it anyway.

      And now for the car analogy:
      Imagine a world where electric windows aren't standard. Now, imagine that someone starts selling aftermarket electric windows. Now imagine that a car manufacturer, seeing the popularity of electric windows, starts to offer electric windows as standard equipment (and modifies its manufacturing process such that they can't really build cars without electric windows). The manufacturer's electric windows can still be replaced with new ones; if the aftermarket window people can offer a sufficient improvement to be worth getting it done they'll still do business, if they can't; they won't. Now, why should the situation be different if only one company makes cars?
      So their size and ability to provide electric windows for 'free' makes it difficult to compete? Sucks to be you - make a better product or make a different add on in the full expectation that it'll become standard equipment in a few years, but don't bitch that you want the people who buy the cars to be forced to take the car home from the dealer and then either pay you to fit your electric windows, leaving their car out of action for a week, or return it to the dealer to fit electric windows for free, but still leaving them car-less for a week.

      While I can see that developers need to eat, I can also see that the alternative is that everyone suffers for having useful features taken away from them. Or, like they did with Windows XP N, the only people who'll care enough to buy the crippled version are the people who would have cared enough to install alternate software whether the built-in was there or not.

      Do we see KDE complaining that Explorer competes with KDE4 for windows? OpenOffice complaining that wordpad competes with them? Octave complaining that for simple work calc competes with them? Zonealarm complaining that windows now includes a firewall? No.
      How much more of the ability of a fresh windows install to just let the user get on with what they want to be doing is going to be chipped away at because someone else wants an opening to peddle something to users to enable them to do what they could before?

      Finally, I hear no-one screaming that linux should adhere to the same standards. Linux will not 'win' whilst it's seen as trying to create an unfair playing field with legal actions. If someone suggested that Firefox, Lynx, Konqueror and Nautilus were abolished from default installs so that other browsers could get a shot, it would be laughed off the mailing list. Someone sugesting that both browsers and all methods of getting browsers should go, forcing users to get them from a seperate disc would probably find themselves off the mailing list sharpish.

      The computer is a wonderful tool because it can do so many things, trying to make it so that it won't do those things without first fiddling with it is a step backwards - especially as there are lots of other things that people may want to do which rely on internet explorer being t

      --
      FGD 135
    23. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If MS stopped breaking this law in this case...

      I don't think that has been completely established yet, the EU is not done...

      No, the case is not done, but it is open and shut. The US convicted them of the same action under nearly identical laws. All the findings of fact are pretty much done from the previous antitrust conviction in the EU. I haven't heard a single legal expert question that they will be convicted, just what the remedy will be.

    24. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by jopsen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Who said anything about making them care... But if windows didn't ship with IE, IE wouldn't be as tightly bundled with the os... and OEMs might ship with opera, firefox or whatever they think might give the best user experience. BTW, Many countries in the EU are semi socialistic, e.g. liberalsocialistic... And why is that relevant?

    25. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by moronoxyd · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Do the following on a newly installed Windows:

      - click on the Start button
      - click on "Run"
      - type in "cmd", click "ok"
      - in the black Window that opens, type "ftp", press the Enter key

      Now please tell me, what Programm you just started?

      Yes, an FTP client independent from IE, but available on EVERY standard Windows installation since Windows 95.

      (Ok,I haven't done that on Vista or Windows 7, but I don't expect MS to have removed the FTP client.)

    26. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by Laglorden · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Exactly, so you've just clarified one of the arguments _against_ IE. It causes other companies to develop specifically for IE something that could have been done just as good in a more "open" way.

      Your case is _not_ an argument to keep IE integrated into Windows, just the opposite.

    27. Re:Slow Justice is No Justice by Richard_at_work · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Having personally paid for two FTP clients over the past 4 years (SmartFTP on Windows and something I forget the name of on Mac), and having not paid anything for a web browser, ever, I would say that there are *more* people buying FTP clients than browsers...

  2. Stupid.. by bradgoodman · · Score: 5, Insightful
    This is so stupid.

    Last time they did this over the "media player", after months of laywers and stuff, Microsoft finally agreed to come out with a version of the OS which lacked the Media player.

    And the verdict?

    Nobody wanted it.

    If you don't want IE, do what I do. Just don't run it.

    1. Re:Stupid.. by BSAtHome · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem was that they allowed two versions of the OS distribution. Obviously, most will opt for more features if the financial difference is small enough. If media player had to be downloaded separately for any version, then there would have been a difference. If this new case again allows for two versions without a significant monetary difference, then it will end in the same way: a dead duck.

      Anyway, it drains a good amount of money out of MS each time they have to comply. That has got to hurt in the long run.

    2. Re:Stupid.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Nobody wanted it, because
      a) it had the same price.
      b) they not only removed the Windows Media Player, but also Windows Media Codecs. These codecs are next to impossible to get, because they're supposed to be included in Windows anyway. You don't care about windows media files? Neither did I, until I found out, why F.E.A.R. has no sound on N versions of Windows. Microsoft did a good job making sure, that the version without Windows Media Player is also crippled for any alternative.

    3. Re:Stupid.. by florin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Noone wanted it because the version without Media Player cost exactly the same as the one with. So which OEM in his right mind would put that on a PC? Which shop would stock it?

      The EU made a mistake in not forcing MS to lower the pricing on the Windows without Media Player.

      How much cheaper could Windows really be if your purchase price wasn't sponsoring the programming teams that are working on the 'free' browser, virus scanner, defragmenter, backup program, touch interface, fax and scan interface, optical burn program, media player, movie maker, speech recognition, java clone, flash knockoff and all the other crap that you get with Vista? None of these programs are particularly good, so let's just see some Win32/MFC/.NET libraries for say 10$ and you can keep the rest of the crap. There are better alternatives which are truly free.

    4. Re:Stupid.. by fluffernutter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Just don't run it" This just picks my butt. Comments like this are absolutely useless. I know how to not run it, you know how to not run it.. Everybody commenting on this article knows how to not run it. The problem is the 95% of people out there that use windows that either A) don't know how to use an alternative, or B) might prefer an alternative but don't have enough motivation. Until the computer people stop talking like it's a simple task and dismissing the problem, Microsoft will continue to slide under the radar. That is what they count on.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    5. Re:Stupid.. by Caetel · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's because Windows Media Player is free.

      "This download is available to customers running genuine Microsoft Windows"

      So no, it's not free. You just don't pay for it because it's incorporated into the cost of the Windows licence.

    6. Re:Stupid.. by samriel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      WebKit != Safari.
      Trident != Internet Explorer.
      HTML Rendering Engine != Internet Browser.

      L2DistinctTechnologiesNub.

    7. Re:Stupid.. by ukyoCE · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Have you ever wondered WHY it is that every company trying to compete with Microsoft's bundled media player, bundled operating system, bundled... etc. has to give their software away for free?

      Does it help if I give you the hint that these companies used to be able to charge for the software before microsoft started giving it away for free with their operating system that has 90%+ market share?

  3. So what? by Drakin020 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Windows can load whatever it wants on to their Operating Systems. What right does anyone else have to tell them what they can and cannot load? If someone else want's to use Opera, have them download it. It's not like Microsoft is stopping you from doing it.

    --
    The greatest revenge in life is massive success.
    1. Re:So what? by JWman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm not MS lover, but really, at what point does this stop? What if a company with a desire to litigate decides they want to enter the utilities market, but are hampered by the preloaded utilities available in Windows (defrag, search, etc.). Does MS have to strip out features every times someone calls foul? How far will it go? What if some company decides to make a CPU scheduler, and think that it's unfair that MS includes one with windows? Where's the line?
      How many people are there buying computers who would think of thier computer as complete without an internet browser? Is MS evil for catering to this need?

      On a related note, will Apple have to stop including Safari with OS X?

    2. Re:So what? by Totenglocke · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yea, MS's "monopoly" sure kept me from downloading Firefox, Open Office, Ubuntu, buying a Mac, etc. There ARE alternatives out there, all the "evil monopoly" bullshit is people who either don't like MS products or (if they're a company or government) just want to steal money from the richest software company out there.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    3. Re:So what? by jrothwell97 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No Windows cannot load whatever it wants to on their Operating Systems.

      er... yes it can.

      It's still an open platform that runs any code you throw at it, provided it's compatible. The claim that Windows itself is a monopoly is complete and utter bollocks.

      --
      Those using pirated Tinysoft signatures(TM) are a real threat to society and should all be thrown in jail.
    4. Re:So what? by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm not MS lover, but really, at what point does this stop? What if a company with a desire to litigate decides they want to enter the utilities market, but are hampered by the preloaded utilities available in Windows (defrag, search, etc.).

      It only applies to pre-existing separate markets. That is, someone has to be selling or in some way making money selling that component separately at the time MS starts bundling it.

      Does MS have to strip out features every times someone calls foul? How far will it go... Where's the line?

      Does no one learn the basics of antitrust law in Econ anymore?

      How many people are there buying computers who would think of thier computer as complete without an internet browser? Is MS evil for catering to this need?

      MS doesn't sell computers. MS sells computer components and OEMs build complete systems. It's like if Nvidia managed to monopolize the graphics card market, then started making LCDs integrated with the video card and required all computer manufacturers to buy them as a bundle. If Dell wanted to use a different, cheaper or better LCD they could always throw away the one they were forced to buy right? That wouldn't be unfair to current LCD and monitor makers would it? After all people don't think a computer is complete without and LCD.

      Legally, Dell and HP and Sony and other OEMs need to not only be allowed to choose which components to put into their computers, but in the case of monopolies they have to have no influence by the monopoly to include multiple components because one is monopolized. Right now they have a lot of incentives to include a substandard browser with every computer the sell and that has resulted in the Web advancing very, very slowly for a long time.

      MS isn't evil for bundling, but they are criminals and many time repeat offenders at that. You may be confused about antitrust law, but their lawyers sure aren't They built their business model on breaking those laws and counting on the profits to be bigger than the bribes and settlements and fines. Basically, they bet their money was more powerful than the courts and so far they've been right. They're criminals and they've retarded the development of the Web and of innovation just for a few more bucks.

      On a related note, will Apple have to stop including Safari with OS X?

      Why? Do you think they've monopolized the desktop OS market or the Web browser market? Or do you just not understand antitrust law at all and haven't bothered listening to the dozens of explanations people write every time this issue comes up?

  4. Can IE be removed? by Onyma · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I would be very interested to see how Microsoft would go about even trying to remove IE. At best I would think they could extract the GUI wrapper for the engine that most people call "IE"... but the core rendering engine is required for many other components such as the help system for example. Being forced to remove the rendering engine from Windows would be like taking out the bottom brick in Jenga.

    --
    Play me online? Well you know that I'll beat you. If I ever meet you I'll "/sbin/shutdown -h now" you. -Weird Al, kinda.
  5. Re:What about the Firefox I get with Ubuntu? by RaceProUK · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Since Ubuntu don't make Firefox, I doubt it.

    --
    No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
  6. not relevant by boxlight · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Surely this decision is about 10 years too late and such a change would no longer be relevant to the industry.

    IE was a massive money pit for Microsoft, and its only purpose was to protect Windows as the dominant application platform. It worked.

    But with the rise of Web 2.0 and hand helds like Blackberry and iPhone, Windows is no longer the dominant application platform -- no one is actually building applications for Windows anymore, as far as startups are concerned, it's a "dead" platform.

    Therefore whether Windows ships with IE or not is now moot. No one (with the exception of Opera) is trying to make money that way anymore. That ship has sailed.

    1. Re:not relevant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The desktop versions of Opera have been free for a number of years now, in case you didn't know.

  7. Re:What about the Firefox I get with Ubuntu? by vux984 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Since Ubuntu don't make Firefox, I doubt it.

    I think it would be more accurate as "Since Ubuntu isn't a convicted monopolist, I doubt it."

    Monopolies operate under different rules. Comparing monopolies to non-monopolies is just stupid, whether its the Apple-Safari or Ubuntu-Firefox bundles, it doesn't matter. Those aren't monopolies so the rules are completely different.

  8. State sponsored monopoly by owlstead · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'll take these kind of actions seriously when:
    - I don't need the Media Player for listening to state sponsored radio programs or television shows.
    - Local governments don't rely on the .doc format anymore (although with OO this is less of a problem)
    - All government sites run fine in standard compliant browsers
    - Applications (like tax applications) are available for a freely available operating system at the same time as Windows
    - Schools are pushed to learn people IT skills, not Microsoft skills
    - Government and semi-government rely less on Microsoft only products and stops buying billions worth of licensing from Microsoft

    Currently it feels like they are slapping Microsoft with one hand while feeding it with another. OK, since the slapping probably also means that Microsoft has to give some money back, it makes a slight bit of sense. But currently it is not a nice situation at all.

    At least my bank and the public transport sector are platform independent, so we're getting to our money and somewhere.

  9. Enough crap... by AmigaMMC · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm European but I say enough with this crap. I have used FireFox as my primary browser ever since the very first stable version came out and like me many others. I'm sure most of you use FF or Opera. An OS needs to have a browser... imagine buy a new PC with Windows and not having a browser? How are you going to download FF or any other browser? Go out and buy a disk? Impractical. Have one already? Maybe, but not necessarily so. Frankly it doesn't bother me that Microsoft provides a browser with its O.S. This is not 1998, this is 2009 and in 2009 most everyone needs a browser right away. Those who don't like IE can use a different browser and many do. Why is the E.U. not attacking Apple? I don't think MacOS comes with IE or FF or Opera. It would maybe be smarter on the E.U. to say: "Ok, you need to provide at least another browser with your OS" but then we would see a war among those companies who want their browser to be represented, and why should the E.U. decide what goes into MY O.S. ?

  10. What about the consumer? by RoFLKOPTr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Anti-trust laws are in place to keep corporations from screwing the consumer by keeping prices and such down when there's no competition. That's why mergers are looked at so closely and why the Sirius-XM merger was almost cockblocked. They were afraid that the prices would go through the roof because they were the only two satellite radio companies and their merger would end all competition.

    Microsoft's inclusion of Internet Explorer with Windows is not an anti-trust matter. Where is the harm to the consumer? I don't see any. In fact, removing Internet Explorer from Windows would be a burden to the consumer. Even though I'm an experienced Windows user, I didn't even know it came with built-in FTP support, let alone would I know how to use it. What the fuck is Opera trying to pull here? Anybody who uses Internet Explorer anyway would just get it from Microsoft's site. Does Opera think they will gain more market share? NOBODY HAS EVEN HEARD OF OPERA. To be honest, Opera is just alienating their potential users by coming up with this retarded lawsuit which will harm consumers more than it helps their market share.

  11. Rediculous by LunarEffect · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In my opinion there is a high degree of rediculousness behind this whole story.
    Where is the border between something being a part of an OS and things that aren't? Next thing will be for them to want Microsoft to remove the Text editor, the file manager, the GUI and the Image Viewer from Windows, leaving you with a command prompt when you install it.
    I mean, as much as I dislike using Windows, putting myself in the position of a "I don't know anything about computers and don't really care to learn, I just want them to work." type person, I'd feel really pissed off about not having a browser installed on my system when I buy it. I, as a Linux user, like to choose what is on my system though. =)
    Anyway, I think what the EC should do instead of making Microsoft remove IE from its OS is to start a campaign to advertise alternative browsers (Firefox, Opera, Chrome...etc). Has there been a similar suit against Macintosh?