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45% of Dutch Media-Buying Population Are "Pirates"

Anonymous writes "A non-government study in the Netherlands found that 4.7 million Dutch Internet users 15 years and older downloaded hacked and pirated DVDs, games, and music in the last 12 months — or, about 25 percent of the Dutch population. But there may be an upside to this unauthorized sharing/distribution: 'The average [Dutch] downloader buys more DVDs, music, and games than people who never download,' with illegal downloaders representing 45 percent of consumers who purchase content legally, according to the Institute For Information Law, which administered the study."

31 of 307 comments (clear)

  1. "Content" buzzword by Mylakovich · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can't stand this one. Just describe what it is you are talking about. If it's a video, just say "Video", not "Video Content". Nothing is being "contained".

  2. There's only one possible answer. by Thanshin · · Score: 5, Funny

    ARRRRRRR!

    1. Re:There's only one possible answer. by davester666 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Just think how much more would have been purchased if all these criminals didn't have ready access to illegal material? Obviously, they would have purchased a copy of every single illegal download.

      Because of they didn't actually make these purchases, millions of puppies in California had to be killed, because their owners couldn't afford to keep them into adulthood.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    2. Re:There's only one possible answer. by johanw · · Score: 5, Informative

      According to Dutch law, downloading of music and video is NOT illegal. Only uploading is illegal, and downloading of software without permission is illegal. Not that anyone here cares, no private person here has ever been sued for doing any of the not legal things.

    3. Re:There's only one possible answer. by hairyfeet · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Then go back to the way we did it for a thousand bloody years before the IP scam was cooked up! In case you didn't know we actually did have music and art before you could set on your ass and draw a check for 150+ years because you wrote a one hit wonder. It was called patronage and live performances. I know, it is a concept! To actually have to continue working like the rest of us poor slobs instead of making one digital widget and pulling a Disney and sitting on your overfed ass forever. How sad it is to actually be lowered to living like the rest of us and having to continue to work. Sheesh.

      Our progress is being held back by these IP "holders" and their crazy ideas. News flash-digital bits are NOT the same as owning land! You may want them to be, but they are not! Example, There is NO reason why we shouldn't be able to buy prebuilt little multimedia servers designed to let us rip our CDs and movies and make them available anywhere in our homes. No more dealing with discs, the kids can watch what they want while the adults watch their own movies, etc. It would be very nice. But we can't have anything like that because the IP "holders" say you only have rights to play the plastic. So if the little bit of plastic isn't there than you can't watch it. AARGH!

      I will be SO glad when the *.A.As just DIE already! For 150+ years we had sane copyrights until the IP "holders" decided to bribe our lawmakers. So while they haven't put out anything I would consider actually pirating I for one hope they lose tons of money. They ripped us off by stealing the Public Domain away from us, so anything that happens to them is fine by me. I hope they ALL go out of business. And NO bailouts for you!

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    4. Re:There's only one possible answer. by Bearhouse · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And pot is legal too - that settles it, I'm moving out there...

    5. Re:There's only one possible answer. by johanw · · Score: 5, Informative

      Pot is not legal, but if you only carry a small amount for personal use or sell it under strict conditions the state won't prosecute you. As long as sellers pay taxes of course.

  3. Also selling well by AlterRNow · · Score: 5, Funny

    Also selling well: eyepatches, wooden legs and stuffed parrots. Arrrrr!

    --
    The disappearing pencil trick. Let me show you it.
    1. Re:Also selling well by MadKeithV · · Score: 5, Funny

      The dutch don't buy wooden legs, they buy wooden shoes.

    2. Re:Also selling well by MadKeithV · · Score: 5, Funny

      That joke is below sea level.

  4. Of course this calls for by HungryHobo · · Score: 5, Funny

    Stricter legislation! Harsher punishments! Bigger fines! Public whippings!

    1. Re:Of course this calls for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Exactly. And don't forget, more draconian DRM.

      Case in point. I just bought an LG DN898 Upconverting DVD player (not HD, not BluRay). Per LG and the Best Buy rep it would upconvert to 1080i on the component (Analog) output. In reality? "Copyrighted" movies play at 480p (non-upconverted), copied, pirated, and other DVDs will play at the full upconverted 1080i.

      Yes, they made it more appealing for the customer to get pirated movies now.

      So thanks to this encouragement I have bought my last DVD and look forward to only expanding my library through pirating, as pirated movies will now look *better* on my TV! (Oh and no more commercials, FBI notice, or other crap I can't skip).

      * If you don't believe me btw, just check here (Warning PDF), page 5 under component connection:

      "For 720p and 1080p resolution on the component video output, only non-copy protected discs can be played back. If the disc is copy protected, it will be displayed at the 480p resolution."

    2. Re:Of course this calls for by Jurily · · Score: 4, Funny

      I wonder what the logic was.

      "If they were stupid enough to pay for that, they deserve to suffer."

      Sounds like a BOFH to me.

    3. Re:Of course this calls for by TheCybernator · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually Moser Baer has done something similar in India. They crashed the CD/DVD prices from ~Rs.1000 to ~Rs.100 (USD 20 to USD 2)
      People now obviously prefer DVD prints over the pirated cam print. This should be and is THE only way to kill piracy.

    4. Re:Of course this calls for by Weedlekin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've got a set-top DVR / DVD burner / etc. that also encourages using pirated stuff, although for a different reason.

      I wanted to copy my boxed DVD set of extended LOTR disks to the HD to (a) avoid having to swap them half way through the movies, and (b) keep the originals in pristine condition. This seemed to me to be very reasonable use for a DVR, but the film studios don't agree with me, so the machine won't let me do this for copy-protected stuff because the manufacturers can't obtain the relevant licenses and trademarks otherwise.

      Fortunately, the box has in-built DIVX support and a USB port that can read thumb drives directly, so the solution is obvious: download a pirated DIVX version of each movie, stick it on a thumb drive, and then copy that to the HD, an operation that will also save me lots of HD space, and let me make backup DVDs of my LOTR disks with an entire 2-DVD movie on each. Score: Pirates 2, Genuine Version 0.

      It should be noted that I haven't actually downloaded a pirate version yet because I haven't previously pirated anything unless it's the only alternative (e.g. I want something that's no longer available commercially), but this short-sighted policy has made me think about it seriously for the first time. I paid quite a lot of money for what amounts to a crippled product that prevents me from using it in a legitimate way that doesn't carry even the potential for any lost sales by the copyright owners, and if that's the way they treat their paying customers, then I can see no benefit in being one. I will not therefore be buying any more of their products unless they're in a bargain bin for price that's low enough to offset the fact that I'm buying a crippled POS whose true value is lower than that of a free version I can easily find on the Internet.

      --
      I'm not going to change your sheets again, Mr. Hastings.
  5. It's not all that surprising... by 91degrees · · Score: 5, Interesting

    An unscientific look at my friends seems to suggest that the people who buy the most also pirate the most. There actually seems to be a fairly consistent ration between amount downloaded and amount purchased.

    On the face of it, it's illogical for them to buy anything but clearly there's some good reason for them to do so.

    1. Re:It's not all that surprising... by mcvos · · Score: 5, Insightful

      An unscientific look at my friends seems to suggest that the people who buy the most also pirate the most. There actually seems to be a fairly consistent ration between amount downloaded and amount purchased.

      It's been common knowledge for quite some time now. Only the industry insists on ignoring it.

      On the face of it, it's illogical for them to buy anything but clearly there's some good reason for them to do so.

      A lot of downloaders have surprisingly high ethical standards. Some purchase a legal copy, don't install it (because of DRM) and download the cracked version instead.

    2. Re:It's not all that surprising... by mcvos · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't think 50+% of the people are actually opposed to copyright. They're just opposed to it being used as an excuse for harmful DRM and other complications. They want to see their movies and play their games, and don't mind paying for them if they're any good, but paying lots of money for crap that doesn't work gets tired really fast.

    3. Re:It's not all that surprising... by mcvos · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have noticed this too. The people who consume the most, well... consume the most. They are just content whores :) Some they will pirate, things they can easily get and like they will buy as much of as they can. They just want the content, whatever is the easiest way for them to get it most of the time. At least this is what I have seen.

      So smart producers will make sure that paying for it is the easiest way to get the content. That means paid downloads without crippling DRM. That means your HD DVD or BluRay should simply work at full resolution no matter what. That means CD you buy should be rippable so you can put them on your mp3-player.

    4. Re:It's not all that surprising... by mcvos · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, its common knowledge that there is a correlation, but are they in anyway meaningfully linked. I mean, the pro-infringement camp like to point to this and say, look infringement is actually increasing sales... the more people download the more they buy.

      Pro-infringement camp? Your choice of words exposes your biased world view. Few people are pro-infringement. Sure, they exist, but most people are simply pro-being able to use stuff. How much they insist on paying money for that varies, but it's all about the content, not the infringement. That's just a by-product of getting at the content.

      Does downloading music actually increase the amount you buy, or is it simply the case that the people who are most interested in music download and buy the most.

      ...

      The only question is what percentage of those that chose to infringe it would have bought it if that was the only way to get it. Obviously, a huge swathe of them would simply have done without.

      You seem to live in a fairy tale land where there's a magical dial to regulate the number of downloads. Illegal downloads don't cause stuff, they are caused by stuff. If you don't like illegal downloads, you need to look at the real causes.

      Even more so, illegal downloads aren't even an interesting statistic to producers. They should only care about the number of sales. If sales and downloads both go up, they're still doing something right. If sales and downloads both go down, they're still doing something wrong. The downloads don't matter, the sales do.

      A situation where downloads are impossible is simply not going to happen outside magical fairyland. All that matters is: how do you get people to buy your stuff. Stop seeing downloads as missed sales. Many of them are sales, many others would never have been sales.

  6. Small detail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    In the Netherlands downloading music and movies is not illegal (yet). Uploading is another story...

  7. in other news... by roalt · · Score: 5, Funny

    ... studies found that people not interested in listening, playing or watching any media are not buying it, nor downloading it illegally.

  8. Re:Economic downturn to blame by mcvos · · Score: 4, Interesting

    After all, what's a dutchman (or woman) to do when they have the economy blues but hoist the Jolly Roger and go out for a good old pillage on the high seas.

    The pride of our national history, the VOC made much of its early profits through piracy. It brought us our Golden Age. It makes sens to go back to those pragmatic mercantile principles, right?

    Even our prime minister lauded the VOC mentality a few month ago. (And got criticised for it because that includes slave trade and colonialism, but nobody mentioned piracy at the time.)

  9. Re:Correlation is not causation by kitgerrits · · Score: 4, Insightful

    OK. I'll bite.

    The article says that a lot of pirates are people that enjoy the content.
    Sometimes, they even enjoy the content so much, they buy the official copy, just to inform the publisher that this formula works.

    I'm one of them, I have piles of illegal movies and games and even bigger piles of CD's, DVD's and BD-ROMS of stuff I actually like)
    Also, not all piracy is done because 'they want it for free'. If you want English subtitles in the Netherlands, you either have to import (illegal, won't play on DVD player) or download your movies, so I but the movie with dutch subs and download the one with English subs.

    Oh, and yes, /sometimes/ it is worth the money to import (Ghost in the Shell, Evangelion), even if it costs >$75 to buy.

    --
    "I was in love with a beautiful blonde once, dear. She drove me to drink. It's the one thing I am indebted to her for."
  10. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  11. The other 55% by Stroot · · Score: 5, Funny

    Don't worry, I'm one of the other 55% Dutch people, the ninjas. We will beat those pesky pirates.

  12. Go figure. by Anachragnome · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Amazing what a test drive can do for consumer confidence.

  13. It's a dup by El_Muerte_TDS · · Score: 4, Informative
  14. Re:Correlation is not causation by HungryHobo · · Score: 5, Informative

    So by your logic if all a groups copyrighted work was suddenly available for download for free they'd have a massive dropoff in sales?
    Sounds logical, I mean these guys went bankrupt as soon as they tried it.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/MontyPython

  15. It justifies by camcorder · · Score: 5, Funny

    Indeed that research justifies claims of the movie and music industry. Those downloading a copyrighted material illegally are prospective customers, and easier they can be able to get things free, less they would buy them. Not more.

    There are always excuses for illegally downloading these stuff. Overpriced materials, willing to preview before buy, outdated media etc. But those are not valid excuses at least these days. You can *live* without listening to every single tune. You can *live* without watching every single movie. If you enjoy watching a movie, and if you enjoy listening to a tune, go buy it. Just like you enjoy eating snacks and need to buy them.

    For sure you can be ideologically against policies of movie studios, or labels. Then boycot them by making their products less popular, not by illegally download their content. If you do you're one way or another both infringe laws and making those you're against good.

    There're more liberal licenses for distributing copyrighted materials like Creative Commons. Instead support artists releasing content in such a way. But if you don't do that, nothing can be an excuse of infringing copyright of others.

    Most responsible party in this long going problem is those distributing content. I blame those download illegal content less than those sharing this stuff. Distributing does not serve any purpose. As I said it does not serve your mission of protesting policies of the movie studios or music labels in case that's what you want in first place. It even helps their domination.

    Harm of this illegal sharing of copyrighted material is very huge in developing countries. Their government and public don't understand importance of intellectual property. If developed countries did not have good protection of intellectual properties they would not be able to produce quality music, movies or even software. Developing countries don't give importance to this and at the end of day they don't/can't produce rival products with their own resources, they instead stay addicted to copyrighted products of others.

    In my country, Turkey, illegal copying is rampant. And I'll give example not from soft copies, but hard copies, like books. Over here there're lots of universities giving education in English. But you hardly find original books written by professors of local universities. Almost all universities use textbooks from US and/or UK. I'm not talking about grad level courses, but basic physics, mathematics, biology etc. Since most of these books are photocopied by students, professors don't *waste* their time to produce more suitable materials to be used by the local universites and probably rest of the World. They can write better books for their own students. They can give more local examples and students would understand topics better. But students buy illegal copies and somehow manage to pass courses. If they instead complain about expensive books or authority enforce them not to use illegal copies and make them complain anyways, some local professor would produce cheaper and even better materials. Inevitably this not only harm education also make those educated people lazy.

    Illegal copying is like using drugs. You don't foresee any problem eary times and even feel good about it. But eventually it harms your body and future.

  16. It's time people noticed by davecb · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Back when 286s were bleeding-edge technology, my employer noticed that locked or gelded software didn't sell. They sold their product (a competitor to Lotus 1-2-3) without any locks, and found that businesses who borrowed copies then tended to call us us and but copied. So we worked with the local high schools and colleges to maximize the "trying".

    --dave

    --
    davecb@spamcop.net