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Rescued Banks Sought Foreign Help During Meltdown

Posted by kdawson on from the simple-fairness dept.

theodp writes "An AP review of visa applications has found that major US banks sought permission to bring thousands of foreign workers into the country under the H-1B visa program, even as the banking system was melting down and Americans were being laid off. The dozen banks now receiving the biggest rescue packages, totaling more than $150 billion, requested visas for more than 21,800 foreign workers over the past six years. (It's not known how many of these were granted; the article notes 'The actual number is likely a fraction of the... workers the banks sought to hire because the government only grants 85,000 such visas each year among all US employers.') The American Bankers Association blamed the US talent pool for forcing the move, saying they couldn't find enough Americans capable of handling sales, lending, and bank administration. The AP has filed FOIA requests to force the US Customs and Immigration Service to disclose further details on the bailed-out banks' foreign hires."

19 of 749 comments (clear)

  1. When the going gets tough... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...people turn to protectionism. No news there.

    1. Re:When the going gets tough... by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 5, Insightful
      As they should. When millions of people in your country are without jobs, you want your government to protect your ability to get a job, not a corporation's ability to get cheap labor from somewhere else. At least, last time I checked the government is supposed to work for the people.

      Disclaimer: I'm a small business owner who despises organizations using H1B visas, since it's only used to get high quality talent at dirt cheap wages.

    2. Re:When the going gets tough... by Nursie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem is, so does everyone else.

      Gonna mandate that public construction be done with US steel, even if the cost is a little higher?

      It'll help american companies and american jobs, sure. But then the europeans decide that if you're not playing fair then they won't buy stuff you make, they'll use their own.

      Result? We lose out on the global economy, which is largely responsible for the last 20/30 years of growth, everyone pays higher prices and things are no longer done best or cheapest, they're done in isolation.

    3. Re:When the going gets tough... by Potor · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're on to some nativist bullshit here. I have payed taxes in many countries, only one of which I could vote in or depend on "my fellow citizens." And yet, I paid as much percentage of my wages in taxes as any of my colleagues.

      Your logic is that taxes give you rights. Well, according to your logic, if they collect taxes, governments should protect taxpayers, not citizens.

      Moreover the parent here makes an excellent point: your standard of living has in fact been based on cheap labour for a long time, not just the direct "cheap" labour of H1-B visas.

    4. Re:When the going gets tough... by ScrewMaster · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, according to your logic, if they collect taxes, governments should protect taxpayers, not citizens.

      Just to be clear here, you believe that a government (in particular, my government) has no duty to protect its citizens? That a foreign national should enjoy the same treatment as someone who has spent his life paying into the system, whose family has been doing the same for generations? And all this because certain large corporations see a way to reduce costs, while simultaneously availing themselves of the benefits afforded by the very taxpayers you so offhandedly disparage?

      Wow. I mean, just ... wow.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    5. Re:When the going gets tough... by twostix · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Growth? That 'growth' was wiped out in about two weeks when the financial house of cards fell. Some 'growth'.

      The last 20-30 years have seen the most dramatic drop in real wages and the hardest squeeze on the middle class for over a century.

      Not exactly what I'd call 'growth', more like hollywood accounting and people living on credit in an attempt to maintain their class status. We'll get a look at the real financial state of society in many western countries over the next couple of years. Once people get bumped en-masse down into the lower class and they realise that they are now the people they used to look down upon, they're gonna be *pissed*. Whether the pro-globalist ivory tower intellectuals and/or robber barons like it or not. And when that happens all the strict financial regulations and high tax rates on the ultra wealthy and protectionism that have been chipped away at for last century will be brought back post haste. Rightly or wrongly governments won't have a choice. In fact it's already begun to happen.

      Not to mention doing things in isolation has its merits...like providing jobs, lots and lots of jobs, and security both nationally and personally and national self-reliance. Not to mention the skill, knowledge and pride base it builds.

      If an operation in the US (or here in Aus) wishes to run the bulk of its operation in a third world country then the executive should have to live there as well. See how long the pro offshoring arguments would carry on for then.

      As with everything there's a balance, bit of protectionism here, bit of free trade there whatever's good for the country and your countrymen. Totally closing the borders is about as useful as totally opening them and seems to have the same outcome. But moderation in ideology is out of fashion these days isn't it?

  2. Visa by dsieme01 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    America has a choice. Bring in foreign labor that sometimes is much better and sometimes much worse than American labor over here legally or outsource their functions and loose all the benefits in the process.

  3. stop the xenophobia by adpowers · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm worried by the increasing number of stories on /. up in arms about companies bringing in *gasp* foreigners. America was founded by non-natives and our economic strength comes from the thousands of immigrants who come here for a better life by getting good jobs or starting businesses.

    The contempt for the foreigners coming here on H1-B visas, and the companies that hire them, disgusts me. What makes you any better or more deserving than these people? The fact that you were born in the US? Please. These people have the should have the same right as all of us to come here and be successful. By preventing people from immigrating, especially talented, smart people, we are damaging the future of this country. The ability to attract the best and the brightest to come here is one of our greatest strengths. Erecting barriers to trade and enacting protectionism, especially during this economy, will lead to our downfall as a nation.

    The economy isn't a zero-sum game. Allowing foreigners to come here to work enhances their life and the life of those in this country. If you believe you are inherently more entitled to a job than someone from another country, just because you were born here, then you are a xenophobic prick.

    1. Re:stop the xenophobia by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No shit, this stuff is really pissing me off.

      Look, the federal law is that H1B workers are paid the same as American workers in the same job. These companies are asking for H1Bs because they need the talent, NOT because they want to cheap-out on the payroll. If H1B employees are being paid less, then the company hiring them is in violation of the law. It's as simple as that.

      --
      Comment of the year
    2. Re:stop the xenophobia by adpowers · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The reality, particularly in the tech industry, is that non-Americans are leaders in the various fields. Pick up any industry-related journal, and 90% of the articles are by people of non-American decent.

      Very true. This is to be expected because America makes up only, what, 4% of the global population? This alone means we'll have only a small percent of the top-talent natively.

      We probably have a higher percent in actuality because our wealth allows more people to go to higher education, whereas large swaths of the world are prevented from reaching their potential, either through poverty, health, or non-free governments. This is a huge shame; I can only imagine the scientific progress and quality of life improvements we'd make if everyone were allowed to live up to their full potential.

    3. Re:stop the xenophobia by cetialphav · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Honest question - who decides what American workers get paid?

      Normally, the free market decides this. A company has to pay me a reasonable salary because I am always on the lookout for something better. There is nothing that prevents me from changing jobs for more money or better benefits.

      Where the H1-B system is really broken is that this market dynamic simply does not exist. An H1-B worker must stay at the sponsoring company or leave the country. Most of these workers want to be able to live and work here permanently so they need the company to sponsor them for a green card. This basically makes them indentured servants with no way to leave that company. If H1-B workers were free to go after a better salary, we would not have these abuses. Someone from India or China might take a low salary to get a company to relocate them here, but they will quickly look for a higher salary once they are here.

      That has always been my problem with the H1-B program. We bring in a bunch of workers that are easily exploited and that hurts everyone. We need a system where qualified people are given the right to work in our country. If they manage to stay employed for a couple of years, then they clearly have some value and they should be on the fast track to a more permanent worker status.

  4. Re:I want to know... by cayenne8 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    There are plenty of us out there....fucking banks...just don't want to pay close to a living wage for the US to US workers...

    Yet....they can afford new jets (French ones), they can afford millions of dollars of bonuses...etc.

    I've always been against anyone telling a company how much someone could make...and I still to an extent am...but, shit...if the US tax payers are bailing them out, how about a little favoritism to same US citizens for jobs, eh? An exec. making that much salary, with failing times...should not get a fucking bonus, but, use that money to hire US citizens out of work.

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  5. Re:I want to know... by symbolset · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It seems more likely they had run out of the domestic supply of that particular breed of idiot, and were looking offshore for people with a bare grasp of English and math.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  6. Re:I want to know... by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yeah, that's what I want to know. I'ld gladly take a job at a bank for 65k+ a year while I'm still in school, bankers hours would still give me time for class. And as an applied math minor, and a CS major, I'm sure I could handle these so called difficult positions. But it sounds like they weren't willing to pay the 75k+ a year that folks like me would like

    The info on your web site says you have no significant experience in technology, and you do not yet have your degree. Perhaps part of the reason these companies are looking for H1Bs are because there are so many people at your level of experience who think they're worth 75k a year.

  7. Re:What they really mean by mochan_s · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What the above paragraph really means is they couldn't find enough Americans capable of the job, who were willing to take less pay than average, so their costs would be less, and their profit margins would be more.

    H1B rules say that you specifically cannot pay them less. An American worker has the right to go to a company, demand the salary, related qualifications and job descriptions. If the American citizen can prove that she is qualified for that position, then the company cannot continue hiring the H1B. In fact, all this information is REQUIRED BY LAW to be posted in a public space in the company (in the bulletin board of the hallway).

    There are rules and safeguards up the wazoo about hiring workers with with lower pay on H1B.

    On the other hand, H1B sponsorship costs money in application fees and lawyer fees. You'd have to hire the H1B for ridiculously little for the whole system of underpaying to be even worth it and have a way to get away with it.

    As far as I know, there has been no major disclosure or legal action against a practice like this. All that has been are stories that people have put up in the web.

    The banking industry needs a lot of IT and database people. This is where a lot of H1B hiring goes on I believe.

  8. Re:first the ibm story now this by Average · · Score: 5, Insightful

    protectionism never works

    I wouldn't quite go that far. The U.S. was known as the king of protectionism from Alexander Hamilton's "Report on Manufactures" to the late Nixon administration. So much so that moderate protectionism (i.e., Smoot-Hawley was indeed too far) was known as the "American School of Economics". Henry Carey? Friedrich List? The 'National System'? Have history classes completely been turned over to "America always worshipped Adam Smith" revisionism?

    We currently are the least protectionist we've ever been in our history, and are far less protectionist than most of our "free-trade partners".

    We moved from colonial backwater to walking-on-the-moon superpower on protectionism. It didn't work?

  9. Re:I want to know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'll be willing to bet that when you leave work you actually leave work.

    I'm also willing to bet that you don't have your nights, weekends, and time with your family interrupted because of something broken at work.

    I'm also willing to bet that for every hour worked over 40 a week you get actual compensation for, instead of "We'll make it up to you".

    I'm also willing to bet that your company can not just lay off 1,200 workers in a week, without your union getting involved, and garnering some pretty hefty severance packages (if the union lets them lay the workers off in the first place).

    Yes, your job is more physically demanding, I'll give you that. But even desk jobs can cause stress.

  10. Re:I want to know... by e2d2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think what shocks me most is the complete disconnect between the classes. The lower class is surprised that the elite is shitting on them? Talk about heads in the sand. Meanwhile the elite bankers at the top are shocked that they are being scrutinized so heavily. After all, "do you know who the fuck you are talking to?"

    I'd be laughing my ass off if it didn't hurt so many people.

  11. Re:I want to know... by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think you give them too much credit. They'll never be shocked. They will be bankrupt and on the street homeless and still be fighting for the rights of the wealthy to continue screwing them.

    Look at Joe the Plumber.

    The idiots in this country who believe that hard work and long hours alone will make them 8 figures some day. The idiots who believe that their success is the result of their hardwork and their hardwork alone--that they don't owe anybody anything. "You're going to take away MY WEALTH!" When they have no wealth of their own.

    Everybody in America dreams of winning the lottery or working hard and building a business which is going to make them millions. And when that happens they "sure as hell aren't going to pay to keep some lazy ass mexican to sit home and watch cable." They're all deluded that someday that millionaire will be them.

    Are the rich and succesful by and large hard workers and productive members of society? Sure. Absolutely. But are they 100,000 times more useful to an organization? Are they 100,000 times more productive than a replacement? No. Our entire pay structure has gotten bent out of shape. Who pays the salaries of a large bank? The board. Is the Salary coming out of the board's pockets? Not really. What do they care if they pay their CEO 10 million or 11? And if the CEO makes 11 million then it only seems fair the board pays itself 2 each.

    How can you rationally set the salary of someone who is your boss? How can you rationally set your own wage? No wonder it's completely blown itself out of proportion. You can't tell me there isn't someone out there who is a business genius who is willing to work for $1million a year. Based on the performance of the auto industry it's been obvious for over a decade you could take any manager in the corporate office and put them in power and get just as good of results.

    We've gotten to the point now in these large organizations where we're paying 50x the price for .01x times the extra gain. But that's the American dream. Someday "I too could be that super over priced executive." Someday "I too could be that movie star." Someday "I too could be that lottery winner." And when that day comes! I don't want to pay the government a million dollars a year in taxes!