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Rescued Banks Sought Foreign Help During Meltdown
theodp writes "An AP review of visa applications has found that major US banks sought permission to bring thousands of foreign workers into the country under the H-1B visa program, even as the banking system was melting down and Americans were being laid off. The dozen banks now receiving the biggest rescue packages, totaling more than $150 billion, requested visas for more than 21,800 foreign workers over the past six years. (It's not known how many of these were granted; the article notes 'The actual number is likely a fraction of the... workers the banks sought to hire because the government only grants 85,000 such visas each year among all US employers.') The American Bankers Association blamed the US talent pool for forcing the move, saying they couldn't find enough Americans capable of handling sales, lending, and bank administration. The AP has filed FOIA requests to force the US Customs and Immigration Service to disclose further details on the bailed-out banks' foreign hires."
...people turn to protectionism. No news there.
The American Bankers Association blamed the US talent pool for forcing the move, saying they couldn't find enough Americans capable of handling sales, lending, and bank administration.
They're just copying well the tactics of others.
What the above paragraph really means is they couldn't find enough Americans capable of the job, who were willing to take less pay than average, so their costs would be less, and their profit margins would be more.
For the purposes of their requests, people who want to be paid somewhere near the market price for their services aren't suitable candidates capable of the job.
Retreats at luxury spas, buying private jets, handing out billions in "retention bonuses" when there are 10's of thousands out of work in the finance industry and the companies are asking for a taxpayer bailout. Then they repay those same taxpayers by trying to hire foreigners to replace them.
It's obvious to everyone outside Wall St. that these people just don't get it. Entitlement has become so entrenched it's a way of life for them.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
... were also looking for the cheapest labour they could get.
I'm suspecting that you'll also find that those were the banks handing out the biggest bonuses for their executives.
When this disaster is over, I recommend lots of government regulations to ensure that, in the future, none of the banks (or other financial institutions) ever get "so big that we cannot let them fail".
In theory, with the "Free Market", these banks WOULD fail because they were badly managed. Instead, we're propping them up and rewarding their failed management.
The real problem was the only Americans they could find wanted to give out loans to unqualified applicants, and they already had enough of those idiots in-house.
John
America has a choice. Bring in foreign labor that sometimes is much better and sometimes much worse than American labor over here legally or outsource their functions and loose all the benefits in the process.
I'm worried by the increasing number of stories on /. up in arms about companies bringing in *gasp* foreigners. America was founded by non-natives and our economic strength comes from the thousands of immigrants who come here for a better life by getting good jobs or starting businesses.
The contempt for the foreigners coming here on H1-B visas, and the companies that hire them, disgusts me. What makes you any better or more deserving than these people? The fact that you were born in the US? Please. These people have the should have the same right as all of us to come here and be successful. By preventing people from immigrating, especially talented, smart people, we are damaging the future of this country. The ability to attract the best and the brightest to come here is one of our greatest strengths. Erecting barriers to trade and enacting protectionism, especially during this economy, will lead to our downfall as a nation.
The economy isn't a zero-sum game. Allowing foreigners to come here to work enhances their life and the life of those in this country. If you believe you are inherently more entitled to a job than someone from another country, just because you were born here, then you are a xenophobic prick.
Your argument assumes foreign workers are going to spend more money domestically. I find that argument to be incorrect. I argue that foreign workers will live extremely frugal in the US while sending the bulk of their earnings back to their home country. The best example of this is migrant Mexican workers.
There is no "Free Market" as originally described. The people with the money can get politicians to write laws protecting them.
But they keep quoting the "Free Market" when it is advantageous to their position to pretend that it exists.
It does not exist.
So just don't pretend that it does any more and ignore those people who use it to justify their abuses and just make it impossible for any SINGLE organization to get so big that the government has to rescue it.
It's all about privatizing profits while socializing losses.
Yet....they can afford new jets (French ones), they can afford millions of dollars of bonuses...etc.
I've always been against anyone telling a company how much someone could make...and I still to an extent am...but, shit...if the US tax payers are bailing them out, how about a little favoritism to same US citizens for jobs, eh? An exec. making that much salary, with failing times...should not get a fucking bonus, but, use that money to hire US citizens out of work.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Rescued Banks Sought Foreign Help During Meltdown
and then
...requested visas for more than 21,800 foreign workers over the past six years.
I wasn't aware the banking system was already melting down in 2003. Given the delay inherent in gov't bureaucracies, H1-B visa requests granted now may have been in the system for months, if not years.
Have gnu, will travel.
It seems more likely they had run out of the domestic supply of that particular breed of idiot, and were looking offshore for people with a bare grasp of English and math.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Sorry if I had phrased that like that. My point was that putting money into US citizens at the bottom of the economic ladder gets more taxes generated for the government than putting the same OR LESS money into foreign workers.
That has also been my experience. They come here, live as cheaply as possible, save their money (good so far, right?) and then start their own business back home when they return.
During good economic times and high employment, that doesn't impact the economy very much.
During bad economic times, you're sending money away from the US economy ... and taking jobs from US workers ... and increasing the tax burden on the other workers to pay for unemployment benefits of those workers ... and so forth. The government collects fewer taxes, but ends up with spending more on the unemployed. It's a double hit.
Labor unions 'plagued the country for decades,' you say?
The UAW was a disaster, I'll agree, but only because they did in reverse what private enterprises too often do to warrant unionization among their employees. Instead of General Motors exploiting and abusing its workers, the UAW exploited and abused General Motors while their incompetent management ran the company into the ground. (And would have done so with or without the UAW's help.) To brand unions as a universal evil like you do is just as bad as branding them as a universal good.
Yeah, that's what I want to know. I'ld gladly take a job at a bank for 65k+ a year while I'm still in school, bankers hours would still give me time for class. And as an applied math minor, and a CS major, I'm sure I could handle these so called difficult positions. But it sounds like they weren't willing to pay the 75k+ a year that folks like me would like
The info on your web site says you have no significant experience in technology, and you do not yet have your degree. Perhaps part of the reason these companies are looking for H1Bs are because there are so many people at your level of experience who think they're worth 75k a year.
I am a manager at major technology company. One that nearly anyone would love to get a job with.
I have hired a lot of people over the last few years. And a lot of people straight out of college. And I've hired a LOT of foreigners. I've had to deal with H1-B issues every year for 4 years.
I dearly want to hire Americans. I have a candidate right now who is really good and I'm frothing at the mouth to sign him up.
And I don't believe Americans are stupid or can't do what foreigners can. But here's the thing, Americans in college mostly seem to have lousy resumes.
Remember when you are getting a job out of college, that most of your peers (meaning college students graduating nationwide) will have no actual experience in anything but the basic concepts of your field. Most employers realize that a college student is mostly considered a smart blank slate, one they will have to train a while in the ways of work before they can contribute well.
When I see resumes from Indian students, both educated in India and educated in the US (often just graduate school), the Indian students have FAR better resumes than any of the American students. The resumes list specific courses which show that the applicant has done projects which involved design and implementation while still in school. Also, they will often have fantastic summer experience. Meanwhile, American students will apparently have been delivering pizza for the summer because there's usually nothing listed.
So, Americans, do yourself a favor. When you enter college, do a resume search of students graduating from your school or similar ones. Look at some of the resumes from the Indian students. See the experience they are listing, and then go get yourself some of this experience, both in school and during the summers.
Yes, work your butt off in classes too, but you also need to work extra hard to make sure you land a good-quality internship between your junior and senior years. And take project-type classes that show you can do work in the field you want to land a job in, not just that you know the concepts and math involved. And make sure when someone reads your resume, they can tell from it what you learned/did.
You'll make things a lot easier on me too, because I want to hire Americans (trust me, the government is still doing a good job of making it easier to hire Americans than foreigners), and if you make it easier for me to find you, we both win.
Banks making decisions according to financial factors?! Say it ain't so!
Congressmen act surprised because they want their constituents to believe that by bailing out the banks, they're saving the American worker and the economy. But I have serious doubts that any of the Congressmen who voted for the bailout *really believed* that it would create jobs or help the economy.
The problem Congressmen *might* be facing next election is that those workers laid off by the banks receiving bailouts are not the ignoramuses they assume. These workers went to college, took courses in economics, and generally speaking, understand as much about the economy - if not more - than their congressional counterparts. They lived through eight years of the Bush White House, and can recognize cronyism when they see it. They lived through eight years of Reaganomics, and not only do they recognize it when they see it, they know it doesn't work.
And they, like me, are frustrated that the wool is being pulled over our collective eyes. We're frustrated that Congress is rewarding greed and avarice, and trying to sell it as creating jobs. They know better; we know better.
Oh, and that Change that Obama was talking about? Well, our government is going to take your dollars, and leave you with pocket change. Welcome to Democracy.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
protectionism never works
I wouldn't quite go that far. The U.S. was known as the king of protectionism from Alexander Hamilton's "Report on Manufactures" to the late Nixon administration. So much so that moderate protectionism (i.e., Smoot-Hawley was indeed too far) was known as the "American School of Economics". Henry Carey? Friedrich List? The 'National System'? Have history classes completely been turned over to "America always worshipped Adam Smith" revisionism?
We currently are the least protectionist we've ever been in our history, and are far less protectionist than most of our "free-trade partners".
We moved from colonial backwater to walking-on-the-moon superpower on protectionism. It didn't work?
I agree with you 100%. Banks I've worked with will hire Indian workers at 20k to network admin over 1000+ clients. That's a bare minimum 50k to a US worker. It's bullshit. I know about "hard times", but like you said, if it's hard times, then execs shouldn't be getting 7 figures.
Trackball users will be first against the wall.
I'd be feeling a lot happier if they WERE getting 7 figures, instead of the 8-9 they get now...
If a company does a web search for you, beware of what they find.
If they don't like it, you won't get called.
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
that they ARE available. In droves. Despite complaints about our school systems, according to actual studies we have today, on the average, the best-educated workforce in the USA that we have ever had. Saying that there are no qualified native workers is just plain bullshit. And even if it were not bullshit, the industry would have nobody to blame but themselves. Nobody is going to bother to "get educated" in order to get a job that pays shit wages and has few benefits!
Companies and corporations are going to have to get this through their heads: they complain that workers are not loyal, and that they cannot find enough people who want to work for them. But the reason is simple: they treat their employees like crap and pay them too little. So... they try to hire foreigners who are willing to live in hovels and accept those shit wages.
Of course this is a generalization, and there are some glaring exceptions... some companies treat their employees like royalty. But those exceptions have been relatively few and can be hard to get into. So as a generalization, this is pretty good.
If they want to find good and loyal employees, they are going to have to pay better, and treat people better. And the changes have to start on their side, because employees are NOT going to say to themselves, "Sure, they treat me like crap and pay me poorly, but I will be a good, loyal employee anyway and maybe they will change over the years!"
Excuse me, but things -- and people -- just don't work that way. Normal people take the jobs that look attractive and avoid those that do not... which is why they are not working for those companies that are complaining.
Until employers are willing to treat people better, they aren't going to get better people. Period.
I am sort of enjoying watching the United States have these epiphanies about protectionism, minimum wages, banking regulation etc. Not because I wish ill on you guys - I absolutely don't. If we must have a 900 pound gorilla of a country indirectly ruling the world, I'd prefer America to, say, China. Or just about anyone else.
But for years and years, the rest of the world has protested long and loud as the U.S. has rammed radical capitalist theories down our throats - no, you may not protect local IP, jobs, vulnerable industries, agriculture, culture, etc etc etc. Globalise everything, open your markets, participate in the race to the bottom. It has seemed crazy and backwards to you that any of us would even consider having high minimum wages, good unemployment benefits, strong unionised workforces, public health, free education and so on. Such things are apparently "socialist", which to many Americans (especially of the right wing bent) really means a combination of "communist" and "totalitarian".
Sure, globalisation has created a lot of growth. But it has also been unneccessarily destructive, and in many countries has wrought untold damage before any benefit has been seen.
So now, after forgetting all about the New Deal and after ignoring the post-WWII warnings your own leaders and intellectuals gave you about the corporatisation of your nation, you finally start to see what can happen to an economy and a society when you strip all of those terrible 'protectionist' policies away and then expose it to harsh conditions. Banks are hiring foreigners because (a) it's cheaper and (b) you have created a culture where the only "right" is corporations doing things as profitably as possible and the only "wrong" is putting anything ahead of money. You're a late entrant in the race to the bottom that you created.
But the measure of intelligence is not whether you make mistakes - it's whether you learn from the ones you do make. I hope you learn from all of this, I really do. Getting rid of the Republican Party and moving your idea of "centrist" away from what the rest of us regard as "far right" might be a good starting point.
Read Pynchon.
I'll be willing to bet that when you leave work you actually leave work.
I'm also willing to bet that you don't have your nights, weekends, and time with your family interrupted because of something broken at work.
I'm also willing to bet that for every hour worked over 40 a week you get actual compensation for, instead of "We'll make it up to you".
I'm also willing to bet that your company can not just lay off 1,200 workers in a week, without your union getting involved, and garnering some pretty hefty severance packages (if the union lets them lay the workers off in the first place).
Yes, your job is more physically demanding, I'll give you that. But even desk jobs can cause stress.
If that's what you got out of the parent post, it says a hell of a lot more about you than the poster.
"They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
I think what shocks me most is the complete disconnect between the classes. The lower class is surprised that the elite is shitting on them? Talk about heads in the sand. Meanwhile the elite bankers at the top are shocked that they are being scrutinized so heavily. After all, "do you know who the fuck you are talking to?"
I'd be laughing my ass off if it didn't hurt so many people.
Blame your government. What kind of idiot gives money away without oversight into how it is spent?
Starbucks, Harbuckle of Breath.
It's because HR usually does not work for the employees, or for the company as a whole. It works for the necessary bureaucracy that is HR. That department's goals often are to commit acts that are decidedly illegal, such as to save corporate money by hiring H1B's instead of American citizens, to discriminate against older employees who might retire and collect pensions, to avoid hiring people with medical problems that will cost insurance money, to protect the jobs of descendants of company founders, to hire menial office staff who will gratefully perform sexual favors for their bosses, or to lie to employment agencies and newspapers by placing false employment ads for positions they have no intention of filling, but merely use to pretend the company finances are good. (My peers looking for work right now are running into that last one quite a lot: once you figure out the positions don't actually exist, it's a good time to warn your stock investor friends that the company is planning layoffs.)
In the course of my career, I've seen HR personnel commit every single one of those acts, with none of the HR personnel at risk for following such policies unless discovered by an outside agency. It's not all HR personnel, or all HR departments, but their loyalty is only rarely to the actual people they're helping hire or manage benefits.
I think you give them too much credit. They'll never be shocked. They will be bankrupt and on the street homeless and still be fighting for the rights of the wealthy to continue screwing them.
Look at Joe the Plumber.
The idiots in this country who believe that hard work and long hours alone will make them 8 figures some day. The idiots who believe that their success is the result of their hardwork and their hardwork alone--that they don't owe anybody anything. "You're going to take away MY WEALTH!" When they have no wealth of their own.
Everybody in America dreams of winning the lottery or working hard and building a business which is going to make them millions. And when that happens they "sure as hell aren't going to pay to keep some lazy ass mexican to sit home and watch cable." They're all deluded that someday that millionaire will be them.
Are the rich and succesful by and large hard workers and productive members of society? Sure. Absolutely. But are they 100,000 times more useful to an organization? Are they 100,000 times more productive than a replacement? No. Our entire pay structure has gotten bent out of shape. Who pays the salaries of a large bank? The board. Is the Salary coming out of the board's pockets? Not really. What do they care if they pay their CEO 10 million or 11? And if the CEO makes 11 million then it only seems fair the board pays itself 2 each.
How can you rationally set the salary of someone who is your boss? How can you rationally set your own wage? No wonder it's completely blown itself out of proportion. You can't tell me there isn't someone out there who is a business genius who is willing to work for $1million a year. Based on the performance of the auto industry it's been obvious for over a decade you could take any manager in the corporate office and put them in power and get just as good of results.
We've gotten to the point now in these large organizations where we're paying 50x the price for .01x times the extra gain. But that's the American dream. Someday "I too could be that super over priced executive." Someday "I too could be that movie star." Someday "I too could be that lottery winner." And when that day comes! I don't want to pay the government a million dollars a year in taxes!
I strongly support your statement. I am currently living in a European Country that I have no citizenship in. I am not allowed to vote, but I am allowed to pay taxes. But somehow that doesn't stop me from being the evil foreigner who takes away jobs for the locals.
The GP argument implicitly assumes that there is some fixed amount of work available, and that foreigners coming into the country somehow "take away" their work, or deteriorate their salary. I can assure you that, if anything, I am more expensive than a local (I get the same wage, but my employer paid a bonus to get me here. Also, I am stricter about taking all of my paid leave and not working overtime than the people around here).
The sad fact is that while the markets have become global, most workers still don't want to live global. It's just as easy for an American to get abroad as it is for an American company to hire people abroad. So why are Americans so hellbent on staying put? It can't be the standard of living: Many European countries offer a better deal than the States when it comes to work-live balance and purchasing power.
No, no, no - don't you know that America is a classless country where everybody has a chance to make it big and live the American dream.
There are no such things as elites oppressing the underdogs in the US - that's purely something that happens in socially decrepit places like France.
Clearly you've been missing the propaganda all these years.
To run the computers, or to run the companies? Because it is pretty obvious where the real skill shortage was. Are CEO positions H-1B eligible?
I am sorry but thats what comes off free trade....i dont remember too many people complaining when this meant mega corporations getting unfettered access to developing nations and repatriating their profits back to shareholders in Europe and the US.
Free trade means precisely that : Free movement of Goods,Capital and Labour.
For years we have had cheap goods off the back of chinese labour and booming economies with access to new markets for our mega corporations.The chickens are coming home to roost,Comrade!
Wanted : A Signature.