Software Piracy At the Beijing Branch Office?

spirit_fingers writes "I'm the IT manager for a west coast design company that has a small branch office in Beijing with 5 employees, a few workstations and a couple of servers. Recently, it came to my attention that the Beijing office has been routinely installing and using pirated software on their computers — MS Office and Adobe Creative Suite, mostly. We're very buttoned up about being legal with our software here at the home office, and I consider it unprofessional and risky for our Beijing office to be engaging in this practice. When I called the local office manager on this, he shrugged and replied, 'Well, every other shop here does it.' So I was wondering if there are any IT manager Slashdotters here in the the US who may have experienced something similar with their colleagues in APAC, and how they handle a situation like this." Click the link for more of this reader's thoughts on the subject.
Up until now, the powers that be here in the States have had a relatively laissez faire attitude about what goes on at the Beijing office and our accounting department hadn't noticed that Beijing never submitted receipts for software, until I questioned them about it.

I have no doubt that "everyone else does it" in that environment. Frankly, I could care less what those guys do with their personal computers, but when it comes to company-owned gear my attitude is to stay legal no matter what anyone else is doing. And it's not like they need to do it to save money: the Beijing branch turns a tidy profit. It just seems to be an attitude so firmly ingrained in the culture over there that no one gives it a second thought.

My response (CC'd to our CFO) was to ask for copies of all receipts and serial numbers for the software they're using. and see what happens. This came down today, so I'll give them a day or two to come up with something.

Comments

He's Right

[Anonymous Coward]

EVERYONE in China massively pirates all software.

Seriously, the company I work for has facilities in China and everything we don't specifically buy and install is pirated over there.

Re:He's Right

[Anonymous Coward]

This is about more than just pirated software. Depending on where the Beijing office got the software, it could be carrying a malware payload that handed over back doors to all of their computers.

China is well known for using corporate (and other) espionage to further their political agenda. Hooking into company systems to exfiltrate any possibly valuable data is far too common.

I would consider the computer security risk to be far more of an issue than just not having proper licenses.

I know it's easy to say this from the outside, but if their Beijing office routinely pirates software, everything about this company's IT security posture seems very out of control.

The OP might as well post logins and passwords on the Internet. It sounds like an extreme analogy, but the reality is that their Beijing computers are probably compromised - possibly multiple times - and any data has probably been examined and pilfered.

Re:He's Right

[Uber Banker]

EVERYONE in China massively pirates all software.

Not everyone does it, as well as being illegal it's a big reputational risk. Living in China I find it quite fascinating seeing the differences large international companies, small international/foreign companies, and large/small local companies work. This topic is an example of such.

[Cue Slashdot car analogy.] Large international corporations often do not let their senior foreign staff own a car, even if such staff state a preference to do so. A rented car and driver are cheap. The risk to the reputation of the company (and international companies often hire on their reputation for being well backed financially, esp. in white collar sectors) should a senior staff member have a well publicised accident are sufficiently high to cause this behaviour. Many more examples exist.

Aside from other concerns like IT security, backdoors in commonly pirated software, lack of availability of software updates, the reputation with the OP's customers is at risk. Perhaps that is how the home office could be persuaded to put some force on the foreign office.

Outsourcing brings with it cost cutting - legal software may appear highly expensive to the overseas office. It MAY BE THE CASE that the manager of the overseas office is pocketing the money, or will pocket the money if legal software is demanded, and providing fake receipts. This is not unusual. The home office should audit all software. China provides an environment where QQ (a hugely popular instant messaging program) or other software may be installed on machines and local IT/security staff have lower standards than that of the home office. Again, an audit and remote administration should be mandatory.

I would point out that this case is not unique to China, all developing economies share work and cultural environments which may surprise, disorientate or confuse the home country office. A professional consultancy* can often be hired at good rates to ensure best practice is maintained in any developing or unfamiliar situation, helping to avoid potentially costly mistakes and lapses in judgement.

*I run such a company but I'm not going to astroturf. Slashdot is for my fun time.

Re:He's Right

[1u3hr]

... backdoors in commonly pirated software,

Bollocks. Never seen it, or heard of it, except from software vendors trying to scare people. And I live in Hong Kong and have seen a fair sample of pirated software. Pirates are actually pretty good at customer service, most give full refund or exchange on demand. They have no interest in selling infected software, it would just rebound on them. Can't say it never happens, but there has been plenty of infected factory fresh legal software. The risk is not larger, in my experience.

Re:He's Right

[Anonymous Coward]

"Bollocks. Never seen it, or heard of it, except from software vendors trying to scare people."

Many people had never seen a banana a few hundred years ago. They still existed. I've been to Hong Kong, and I've been to China. World apart, literally worlds apart, my friend.

Re:He's Right

[alexandre_ganso]

When you say unfair to usa, you forget that those pirated softwares are exported using US prices, being charged to india/china/russia/brazil salaries.

A single copy of a software may cost as much as one year of an employee's salary there.

Re:He's Right

[julian67]

You're confusing the people who sell the stuff on the street/malls/markets with the people who crack the software and to some extent with the people who manufacture it. You're also making a mistake in assuming a modified binary in a software installer is something that an anti-virus/anti-malware program can necessarily detect. I've seen "clean" installs from commonly used and sold XP CD (in SE Asia) which contain keyloggers and so on from minute one. They were undetectable from the running machine but could be found by scanning from read only media such as live CD. The best way to get a rootkit onto many, many people's PCs is to have them install it along with the OS, or have the local PC retail industry helpfully do the work for you when they clone the pirated OS onto the newly purchased (without OS) PC using their cracked copy of Norton Ghost....and the distribution network of human vendors is efficient, motivated (profit), looks after its customers and broadly trusted. Perfect and beautiful! You pay now, wait 5 minutes.

Re:He's Right

[julian67]

You're still confusing the street vendors with the people who make the warez (the cracked software *not* the physical CD). For example: "where there is a motive for the supplier to add "evil bits" even if it only earns him a few cents a ....." It isn't the guy making a few cents selling physical media who adds anything (except a few scratches ha ha). Reputations: assume someone spends the whole $2 and buys XP Pro and installs it. Next step? Install a bunch of other stuff too, some from similar warez CDs, some from p2p, some from warez ftp. Now tell me how anyone who *even notices there is a rootkit(!!!)* can determine its origin? Street vendor reputation unaffected, in fact not really even relevant. I like the idea of "a reputation system the non-braindead use to check out quality and safety" because the idea contains the paradox of supposedly intelligent people trusting all their IT security to street vendors and unknown warez producers. Sweet! p.s. a rootkit is by definition very hard to detect ;-) p.p.s. claiming that something doesn't happen because you haven't noticed it, and demonstrating neither the ability nor the will to notice it, is not a powerful argument. Even if you say bollocks. Seems to me that Brits writing "Bollocks" at the start of a (usually flawed) assertion equates to Americans writing "Period" at the end of one. Neither is as impressively convincing as the author always believes :-)

Re:He's Right

[commodore64_love]

>>>there has been plenty of infected factory fresh legal software

Like Windows XP. Everytime I have to reinstall XP, I'm faced with this annoying virus that gives me a "Something service has ended. Automatic shutdown in 1 minute."

Re:He's Right

[julian67]

Basically, on the whole, people who use prostitutes are a lot more aware of the "dark side" and take more precautions than upright citizens. And they never get the clap or have their wallet stolen. Basically, on the whole, people who use badly maintained electrical goods are a lot more aware of the "dark side" and take more precautions than upright citizens. And they never get a shock or have their house burn down. Basically, on the whole, people who use heroin are a lot more aware of the "dark side" and take more precautions than upright citizens. And they never OD, get a bad batch, get sick or die. Basically, on the whole, people who use illegally modified cars are a lot more aware of the "dark side" and take more precautions than upright citizens. And they never break down or crash. (Compulsory car analogy, offered as part of the /. car analogy quota target program). I think I spotted a flaw in your reasoning. It's obvious to everyone that if you can't detect malware by using cracked "security" tools on a cracked OS then there simply isn't any malware there to find. Obvious and simple too! Duh. Anyway carry on with your warez. Trust all your data to the goodwill and competence of the warez scene. Believe that if you can't understand or perceive something then it can't exist. And good luck.

Re:He's Right

[v1]

Yes copyright infringement is theft of labor. It's no different from if you hired an employee to mow your grass, and then you refused to pay them.

There are more than two things happening. You are seeing the fruits of the labor, and the money changing hands. You're overlooking the work your neighbor put in to mow your lawn. The difference with software is it's not like mowing a lawn. With lawn mowing, every x units of work you invest get you paid for x units. If you mow 2x lawns you get paid 2x. There is always a 1:1 investment, and anyone that fails to pay you directly impacts you, in two ways. One, you worked, and two you missed an opportunity to work for someone else (lost a sale) because you were busy mowing the deadbeat's lawn and couldn't mow the other guy's lawn that would have paid you.

Software development is a whole different business model. You invest y units with development and marketing, and then you sell x units and get paid x. If you sell 3x units, you get paid 3x. Once you've spent y, changes in x have no affect on y. You can increase your x beforehand by pouring more money into y with continued marketing and development, but it's nowhere near a 1:1 relationship. If somewhere along the line you sell another 1x units and don't see the payment of 1x, it doesn't even appear on the books so to speak. It's "icing on the cake".

Theft is usually described as depriving someone of their property or failure to compensate them for their labor done for you. (often referred to as "theft of property or services") We can clearly see no deprivation of property, so the question is one of labor. How much labor did we fail to compensate you for by copying that application? (how much additional work did I just cost you by copying the application instead of buying it?) None.

If you don't pay your neighbor for mowing, he's wasted his time when he could be mowing someone else's lawn and getting paid for it, or he could be doing some other work, or he could be relaxing. You've clearly affected him. But if this morning I install this single license on a second computer over to the right, I haven't affected Adobe in any way this morning.

The only way to justify it is to say that if I hadn't copied the app, I would have bought it. OK that could be viewed as theft of a sale. But that always has to assume I would have bought it. While sometimes this assumption is true, often times it's not. We see that a lot with copying music. When I see someone with 350 albums of music on their 1T hard drive, do I really think they would have bought 350 CDs if they hadn't been able to download them? Isn't that just a little bit ridiculous? I'm not denying the possibility, but it's nowhere the scope imagined. That same person may have bought a dozen or two dozen CDs or more even, but not 350. Software I'd expect to be much the same.

So there are two important differences - copying doesn't have the same direct impact to the vendor as theft, and copying does not necessarily imply a lost sale.

Re:He's Right

[FatdogHaiku]

You CAN NOT compare physical resources to information because information, once created, is an infinite resource, whereas physical resources will always be finite.

The ability to replicate something infinity does take value away from it. AutoCAD is expensive because of the time spent building, integrating, and maintaining an awesomely powerful set of tools. By copying it, the value of the tool is reduced for the people that put the work and money into making it what it is. And I don't have a problem with those creators deciding how abundant or scarce their work is through pricing, that is an artist's (or any other creators) right... including programmers and companies that hire them to produce software.

Re:He's Right

[VendettaMF]

Ha.
HaHaHa.

Three hours, three hours tops. That's how long your locked down machines would last before they were wiped clean and reinstalled from whatever cracked windows media they prefer. Including your fancy-schmancy-linux scanner system. It'd be running xp, vista or windows 7 RC1 before you reached the airport.

This is China. The rules are different here. For starters, law is irrelevant. All laws. All the time. Cold-blooded pre-planned murder is a debatable situation here depending on who you know. The only actually arrestable offense is annoying a police officer or someone with a hold over police officers.

Re:He's Right

[wintermute000]

Your advice will turn the OP's working life into a living hell. Most likely relations with the China team will go to ---- and he will only be able to make a small dent anyway.

Enforcing by fiat from several thousand miles away.... geeze I wonder how that's going to look to the Chinese staff.

Classic case of culture mismatch + geek 'how dare they trespass my domain' indignation = epic fail

The ethics aside, doing the above will surely fail and not have any impact on anything, leaving no traces. That in itself is a reason not to do so.

There's plenty of other posts here that may educate the frustrated petty bureaucrat in you so I won't even bother trying to explain how incredibly arrogant and condescending you come across as

Let the directors decide.

[GrpA]

Why make the decision yourself?

Send an email to the directors just confirming this is what they wish to do and that they don't want you to take any action on this matter.

Then it's not really your problem anymore.

Passing the buck works both ways :)

GrpA

Re:Let the directors decide.

[p0tat03]

If you want something to happen, try reporting the situation to the Beijing branch manager, and CC a higher-up of appropriate stature at the home office.

Speaking as a Chinese, and having much dealings with my kind, I can say that Chinese people will shit a brick when it comes to potentially pissing off a higher-up in the States.

Re:Let the directors decide.

[Corbets]

One could (and I would) argue the ethics of allowing someone else to decide whether an immoral or illegal act should continue. "Passing the buck" is for cowards, no matter the direction; I think this fella is doing the right thing in trying to solve the problem.

Besides which, proof that the directors of a company want something to happen is not absolution of your complicity. Suppose you know someone was cooking the books; do you suppose an email from the directors saying "it's ok" would be enough to absolve you when the IRS came in?

My 2 cents, at any rate.

Re:Let the directors decide.

[QuasiEvil]

Okay, I'll argue those ethics.

IT guy probably doesn't have the power to force the Beijing branch to do anything. His responsibility is to make sure that his superiors, who do have the power as well as the responsibility, are informed about the situation. The corporation is their charge, and if they fail to act, it's the corporation that will incur the risk.

It'd be a whole different issue to me if the company was doing something that endangered people. In this situation, though, it's merely a calculated economic risk of decreased costs vs. the cost of getting caught.

Re:Let the directors decide.

[calmofthestorm]

It's not necessarily a moral matter. That's debatable. What it is, is a business matter. And if you're not authorized to make decisions about that business matter, it's fine to pass the buck to those who are.

Re:Let the directors decide.

[DreamsAreOkToo]

First things first,

Make sure, that under no circumstances, that you post your situation to a popular internet site. That way you can be sure not to draw attention to your circumstances from the people who might investigate... ...oh wait one minute.

Re:Let the directors decide.

[horza]

It's not a good analogy as homicide is a criminal offense and software piracy a civil offense. If you witness a homicide then you are under a legal obligation to report that directly to the police. If you see a fellow employee using a pirate copy of Photoshop you are not legally required to go to the police station and file a report on behalf of Adobe.

In this case it seems passing the buck is the best thing to do. He's obviously not authorised to pay for authentic copies otherwise he would have done so. The people that are able have no desire to do so. All he can do is protect his reputation should there be an investigation, which is to show he competently audited the software under his jurisdiction and informed the people above of any missing licenses.

Phillip.

Re:Let the directors decide.

[robthebloke]

We get more support requests for our software from China than from any other country - and we've never sold a single license there.

If the people using the software have no qualms in contacting the developers directly, then it seems to be a fairly entrenched problem that's going to take an awful lot to stamp out. Whilst talking about this topic many people may think 'windows+office' the fact is that piracy is affecting every developer large and small (and I work for a small one). I applaud anyone who takes an interest in stamping the problem out at their office, though unfortunately it's not going anyway anytime soon...

Given it'smostly MS Office and PDF stuff....

[jkrise]

You are better off suggesting Open Office and Free PDF software; rather than fighting piracy.

I used to work at a multi-national company; and I used to be amazed at the amount of self-imposed lock-ins created by IT staff in Western branches (I am based in India). Routine inter office correspondence happens using 'advanced' features in Exchange and Word which work only on the Windows platform. I always felt plain text and HTML suffices for any and all communication requirements.

Re:Given it'smostly MS Office and PDF stuff....

[jkrise]

But I'm curious -- did you actually get that multi-national company to use any open standards, or are they still doing Exchange and Word?

I tried, but failed badly. I was with them from 1996 to 2002; and in late 2000, the MNC entered into an alliance with Microsoft globally, to use Windows and other Microsoft products. Initially I joined them to set up an SGI-based development network on IRIX and OGL; this was disbanded in 2002 and I quit.

My impression is that in many Western economies, the pricing for Microsoft products isn't that big a deal; so people tend to think of it as a problem that will disappear if they can throw some money at it. But on Server products, things got very expensive and complicated with Craptive Directory and Exchange 5.5; so many Directory Service Replication errors, and a nightmare for the sysadmins. It's like a treadmill... we need to keep running (upgrading) but seldom move forward.

Re:Given it'smostly MS Office and PDF stuff....

[lokedhs]

As an interesting side-note, the only time I receieved OpenOffice documents from a client was from an Indian customer.

I have to admit I smiled a bit with joy when that happened. :-)

The company's policy

[tftp]

My response (CC'd to our CFO) was to ask for copies of all receipts and serial numbers for the software they're using. and see what happens.

Can you request that from that branch only, and ask nothing from other branches? I'd think the manager would be seriously upset if you in such an open, unambiguous way declare him a pirate.

A better way, IMO, would be to set up a company-wide policy of keeping track of all software, all licenses and all computers. You need that anyway, just to know what you have, where, and what can be reused, and such. To implement that you, of course, need scans of receipts and licenses, serial numbers, codes or whatever is needed to install and use, along with some notes on what license governs the s/w (such as whether it can be moved from one box to another, etc.) This way when a computer is decommissioned you know what was on it and what can be salvaged. Tools like ManageSoft and HP CM do this, and there are other (free and not.) And when Boy Scouts of America kick the doors in you have all the receipts (that they insist upon!) to prove that you are not guilty, this time.

That assumes that your job makes you responsible for licensing compliance. If not, maybe you should not bother.

Set a policy and enforce it

[Matt Perry]

Create a written IT policy for hardware and software. Make sure everyone knows what it is. Create a business ethics policy and ensure that components of it address using unlicensed software. Make sure that your employees are trained on these policies and that a record of training goes into their employee file. If the employees violate the policy, warn them in writing and file the notice in their HR record. If they violate the policy again, fire them. If they want to keep their job, they will fall into line and stop exposing the company to unnecessary legal risk.

why do you care?

[Trepidity]

Unless your job is legal compliance or you own a lot of Microsoft stock, why bother with this?

Re:why do you care?

[sw155kn1f3]

bullshit, it's illegal to copy any copyrighted software in russia.. the only question is will you get punished for doing this or not. this happens because copyright law can be enforced only by owner of such software registered within RU itself. so if say, adobe, has no representation in russian federation, then this just cannot be prosecuted by russian law (no intl treaties, correct, but this can and will change), because law clearly states that only copyright holder can protect their property.
IANAL, but this is how this works in RU.

Re:why do you care?

[cj1127]

That "it's someone else's problem" attitude utterly stinks. My guess is that the guy actually *cares* about the reputation of his company and takes pride in its work, which might be a novel concept to some people. Like it or not, software piracy is illegal; the fact that you have an axe to grind about Microsoft doesn't detract from that

I suppose, when in Rome...

[kkrajewski]

It's not like they're going to be caught and prosecuted. Although if possible, why not go for a FOSS solution? Personally I do tend to try to compensate people who write cool software that I use.

Ocassionally I get emails from Chinese users asking for a serial for one of our products. I asked one if there was not an accessible store from which to purchase it. He responded, basically, yeah, there's a couple, but no one buys software in China, they just download it. So there you have it!

Sadly we're not popular enough for anyone to have made a keygen that I can find.

Don't Stick Your Neck Out, But CYA & Pass the

[darkmeridian]

It is admirable that you want to follow the law, but it is not your decision to make. First, decide if you are willing to go down to the mat on this issue. You may antagonize your superiors and be retaliated against. The threshold question is whether the risk of losing your job or getting your career stalled is acceptable to you. It's perfectly fine to let the matter lie if you feel your job may be at risk in this economy.

Whatever you decide to do, you should cover your ass. Write a formal memo detailing the foreign office's inability to demonstrate that its software is all legit. Call it to the attention of the Beijing folks and a US-based superior. But do not admit that the software is illegal. You do not know if it is. More to the point, it does not violate American law, which is mostly territorial. (The Foreign Corrupt Practices Act covers bribes, not copyright infringement but don't hold me to this.) Just say that you cannot prove the software is legitimate and leave it at that unless you have proof that it is illegal. File a copy of the memo away in a safe place and keep on trucking.

Should you decide to go on the warpath, make sure you have adequate backing. You do not want to be left alone, or be the problem-maker. Work up the numbers and see how much it would cost to go legit. See if you can use this as a selling point: "All our software is legit; the competitors use stolen software that may have trojans or be incompatible." Work on a consensus with your colleagues and superiors.

Lastly, be nice and tactful. Avoid being that douchebag who thinks he is better than everyone else. You cannot be effective if you are that dude. Be chill and try to make a win-win situation.

But if the company management is utterly unwilling to fix the problem, let it drop. Document your suspicions (and say that it is only a suspicion, not proof), send it to the Beijing folks, and save a copy of the memo.

Re:I'd go the other way, personally

[Anonymous Coward]

China is third world? you must be a stupid amelican.

Re:Don't Stick Your Neck Out, But CYA & Pass t

[daveime]

Avoid being that douchebag who thinks he is better than everyone else

I'd say it's probably a bit late for that.

While the poster's motives might appear noble, I don't understand exactly what he's trying to achieve. A promotion, extra brownie points, getting someone in a foreign country fired, or at least severely embarrassed (and they set a lot of store on respect in Asia btw).

He's already approached the person responsible, and voiced his concerns. Just because said person didn't take the action he expected, instead of leaving it alone, he posts it on Slashdot for the world and his wife to comment on. And within a few days it'll be all indexed by Google for posterity.

To me he comes across as an anal retentive asshole who should be spending more time doing his job, rather than trying to shaft other people ... but that's just me, karma be damned.

Re:I'd go the other way, personally

[rolfwind]

I'd say trying to get some people in a third-world country to pay rich American monopolists extra money is an immoral act.

Maybe we should stop paying for Chinese goods? Because obviously some factory boss in China is getting rich off of his exploited workers.

Besides, besides Windows it's hard to argue that any software company has an absolute monopoly.

Re:I'd go the other way, personally

[xstonedogx]

Classifying Chinese working for a branch office of an American design company in Beijing as "some people in a third-world country" is more than a bit disingenuous. Also please consider that the money to be spent also belongs to another American corporation (design, so presumably a monopolist as well) not those people in China.

Re:I'd go the other way, personally

[Anonymous Coward]

China is a Capitalist Authoritarian Dictatorship. You know, like the US tried in South America in the 70's/80's.

Call the BSA.

[Narcocide]

http://www.bsa.org/ It is completely anonymous.

Why would I - an open source advocate - suggest such a thing? Simple; Forcing people to use and learn from Linux (and thereby allowing Linux to learn from them in turn) is better than passively letting them steal MicroSoft products they can't afford which only improves MicroSoft's ability to leverage their installation base in illegally (in the US at least) anti-competitive practices. This will force MicroSoft to price their software at what its worth or make it worth what they charge.

Why would I claim to be a benevolent person who cares for the good of humanity with such apparently cruel intentions as forcing users to use Linux unwillingly? That answer is also simple but if you don't already know it then it is pointless for me to state it.

Seen it time and time again with Asian offices...

[Taelron]

I'm an I.T. consultant in Silicon Valley and several of my clients over the years have had manufacturing offices in Hong Kong and China.

I've had to deal with this situation more times than I care for in the last 10 years. Its a very big legal hassle for your company, and their are raids every few years. Not enough to scare the Asian work force into compliance, but its enough of a game of corporate Russian roulette that the risk just isn't worth it.

Not only are many of the Asian offices using pirated software, but are not running any antivirus software. I've routinely tracked down about 80% of all infections at my client offices to their e-mails with their overseas counterparts or from when they are traveling in Asia on business.

Also, much of the pirated versions of the software are riddled with trojans, spyware, and security holes galore. Allowing them to use that software further opens up your entire company up to a breach or leak of information.

I've also seen more than one company fold or nearly go under because one disgruntled person called in an anonymous tip that their current or former companies software was not legit.

In a corporate environment, getting the documentation and legal software is definitely the IT managers job, and an obvious C.Y.A. for anyone in the I.T. department and the company officers... Its those heads that will roll if the B.S.A. shows up with the authorities to audit you.

Re:Seen it time and time again with Asian offices.

[ebonum]

I hate to say this, but you sound like a paid microsoft poster. Raids? In China? Have you ever been to China? Honestly. Please don't spread FUD. Trust me. I live here.

I would worry about trojans, spyware. These are legitimate concerns.

Another concern is that a lot of development in China takes place on very old slow machines. You want to do development here? Plan on using Microsoft VCC 6.0. Want to buy a copy? Forget it. Microsoft dropped that one about a decade ago. ( actually it is amazing how these kids get so much done working little on 17 inch monitors )

Iâve seen a lot people here using pirated software that is three generations old and no older available. But, it runs 10 times as fast as the new versions, and still seems slow on the old machines here.

Re:I'd go the other way, personally

[1u3hr]

Normally I would agree with you, but you do realize that the US has this gigantic trade deficit with China, don't you? Maybe you could be more clear about who is the rich and who is the poor guy here.

List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita
China, People's Republic of: $5,325, rank: 100
United States: rank: $45,725, rank: 6

Clear enough?

Re:I'd go the other way, personally

[Alex Belits]

You mean, American companies sell Chinese products in US for eight times the price they paid in China?

Re:It's not "PDF stuff"

[Alex Belits]

"GIMP has no CMYK support" is in the same category as "You will lose copyright on anything made with GPL software". It is constantly being repeated by Microsoft marketing people despite being obviously false.

Whoa, steady now

[jandersen]

Calm down, just a bit or two, there is no need to overreact.

For one thing, whether it is OK to copy software without the consent of the one who produced it is mostly a matter of taste or culture - unlike, say, murder or burglary. The whole idea of "intellectual property rights" is something that is very recent and has come into the world in the West; not to mention the whole idea of private property that underpins it, which one may be excused for thinking is alien to a Communist nation. All that aside, it has long been a part of Chinese culture and tradition to copy things - it is seen as a perfectly legitimate thing to do. You learn calligraphy or other arts by copying the masters, after all; so why not literature or software?

China is well known for using corporate (and other) espionage to further their political agenda.

Really? It isn't well-known to me, among others. You see, when you make a claim like that you need to be able to prove your case. Otherwise it merely ranks as "smug ignorance", on par with all the other prejudices - such as "all muslims are terrorists" or "Jews are money-grabbing misers".

Apart from that, you could substitute "England", "USA", "Israel" or just about any nation for China in that statement and get something equally justified. There is every reason to believe that all countries do this kind of things. Just to take one example: Isn't it true that we keep hearing about how American government agencies want to induce eg. Microsoft to install backdoors in their software? And is that not "espionage to further their political agenda"?

It is too lame to drone on with this sort of automatic demonizing of everybody you don't like or don't understand. The only two effects that is like ly to have is alienating your opponents and making you look stupid. Right now China is storming forward in the world and they are opening up; this is among many other things a great opportunity for the western governments to make friends and influence their policies on all the issues we criticize them for. And who knows, maybe some time in the future we will be glad that we have a friend in China.

Re:He's Not Right

[jonbryce]

If you steal from a grocery store, you deprive them of the groceries they paid for.

Pirating is more like buying from a different grocery store, or growing the food in your garden. That way you deprive them of the sale, but they still have the groceries to sell to someone else.

Re:He's Not Right

[StikyPad]

No, the analogy is more like this:

As long as we live in a society where people earn a living by getting paid for their work, there must be a method in place to compensate them for that work. That method is copyright protection. Other methods have been tried, are being tried, and may turn out to work better, but for now copyright is still the law.

We pretty much agree (as a society, though perhaps not as Slashdotters) that it is immoral to willfully violate a just law. Since copyright is not depriving you of any inalienable rights, and since it facilitates the existence of people who create intangible works for a living, there doesn't appear to be anything unjust about copyright.

I commonly hear that, "Copyright infringement isn't stealing because it doesn't deprive anyone of anything." No, it's not stealing, because we decided to make different words for different actions, but it still deprives someone of something -- it deprives someone of compensation for their work. No, that's not a tangible object, but neither is "being alive." Neither is "being free." They're both far more abstract than an audio recording, yet we agree that depriving people of their freedom or life is generally also wrong. There are acceptable reasons for doing all of the above, but "because you wanted to" is not among them.

Are there cases in which copyright fails to create the desired results? Sure. There's abandonware, out of print works, bizzare licensing schemes, etc. But that's no excuse for copying a work just because "I wouldn't have bought it anyway."