Slashdot Mirror
Software Piracy At the Beijing Branch Office?
spirit_fingers writes "I'm the IT manager for a west coast design company that has a small branch office in Beijing with 5 employees, a few workstations and a couple of servers. Recently, it came to my attention that the Beijing office has been routinely installing and using pirated software on their computers — MS Office and Adobe Creative Suite, mostly. We're very buttoned up about being legal with our software here at the home office, and I consider it unprofessional and risky for our Beijing office to be engaging in this practice. When I called the local office manager on this, he shrugged and replied, 'Well, every other shop here does it.' So I was wondering if there are any IT manager Slashdotters here in the the US who may have experienced something similar with their colleagues in APAC, and how they handle a situation like this." Click the link for more of this reader's thoughts on the subject.
Up until now, the powers that be here in the States have had a relatively laissez faire attitude about what goes on at the Beijing office and our accounting department hadn't noticed that Beijing never submitted receipts for software, until I questioned them about it.
I have no doubt that "everyone else does it" in that environment. Frankly, I could care less what those guys do with their personal computers, but when it comes to company-owned gear my attitude is to stay legal no matter what anyone else is doing. And it's not like they need to do it to save money: the Beijing branch turns a tidy profit. It just seems to be an attitude so firmly ingrained in the culture over there that no one gives it a second thought.
My response (CC'd to our CFO) was to ask for copies of all receipts and serial numbers for the software they're using. and see what happens. This came down today, so I'll give them a day or two to come up with something.
Up until now, the powers that be here in the States have had a relatively laissez faire attitude about what goes on at the Beijing office and our accounting department hadn't noticed that Beijing never submitted receipts for software, until I questioned them about it.
I have no doubt that "everyone else does it" in that environment. Frankly, I could care less what those guys do with their personal computers, but when it comes to company-owned gear my attitude is to stay legal no matter what anyone else is doing. And it's not like they need to do it to save money: the Beijing branch turns a tidy profit. It just seems to be an attitude so firmly ingrained in the culture over there that no one gives it a second thought.
My response (CC'd to our CFO) was to ask for copies of all receipts and serial numbers for the software they're using. and see what happens. This came down today, so I'll give them a day or two to come up with something.
EVERYONE in China massively pirates all software.
Seriously, the company I work for has facilities in China and everything we don't specifically buy and install is pirated over there.
Why make the decision yourself?
Send an email to the directors just confirming this is what they wish to do and that they don't want you to take any action on this matter.
Then it's not really your problem anymore.
Passing the buck works both ways :)
GrpA
Enjoy science fiction? "Turing Evolved" - AI, Mecha, Androids and rail-gun battles. What more could you want?
1) you speak to someone who has the power to set things right educting them on the legal risks and possible get a cookie. 2) You do as above but use this as a chance to push open source software, it's free and legal so why not use it? 3) you keep your mouth shut and just hope no one ever tells on the company. 4) blackmail (for money if you want to be simple 5) keep it in mind if they threaten to lay you off due to budget issues. Nothing like having something on the boss (see above) All these are pretty sound options, well save maybe blackmail for cash.
You are better off suggesting Open Office and Free PDF software; rather than fighting piracy.
I used to work at a multi-national company; and I used to be amazed at the amount of self-imposed lock-ins created by IT staff in Western branches (I am based in India). Routine inter office correspondence happens using 'advanced' features in Exchange and Word which work only on the Windows platform. I always felt plain text and HTML suffices for any and all communication requirements.
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
My response (CC'd to our CFO) was to ask for copies of all receipts and serial numbers for the software they're using. and see what happens.
Can you request that from that branch only, and ask nothing from other branches? I'd think the manager would be seriously upset if you in such an open, unambiguous way declare him a pirate.
A better way, IMO, would be to set up a company-wide policy of keeping track of all software, all licenses and all computers. You need that anyway, just to know what you have, where, and what can be reused, and such. To implement that you, of course, need scans of receipts and licenses, serial numbers, codes or whatever is needed to install and use, along with some notes on what license governs the s/w (such as whether it can be moved from one box to another, etc.) This way when a computer is decommissioned you know what was on it and what can be salvaged. Tools like ManageSoft and HP CM do this, and there are other (free and not.) And when Boy Scouts of America kick the doors in you have all the receipts (that they insist upon!) to prove that you are not guilty, this time.
That assumes that your job makes you responsible for licensing compliance. If not, maybe you should not bother.
Create a written IT policy for hardware and software. Make sure everyone knows what it is. Create a business ethics policy and ensure that components of it address using unlicensed software. Make sure that your employees are trained on these policies and that a record of training goes into their employee file. If the employees violate the policy, warn them in writing and file the notice in their HR record. If they violate the policy again, fire them. If they want to keep their job, they will fall into line and stop exposing the company to unnecessary legal risk.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
Unless your job is legal compliance or you own a lot of Microsoft stock, why bother with this?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
It's not like they're going to be caught and prosecuted. Although if possible, why not go for a FOSS solution? Personally I do tend to try to compensate people who write cool software that I use.
Ocassionally I get emails from Chinese users asking for a serial for one of our products. I asked one if there was not an accessible store from which to purchase it. He responded, basically, yeah, there's a couple, but no one buys software in China, they just download it. So there you have it!
Sadly we're not popular enough for anyone to have made a keygen that I can find.
I'd say trying to get some people in a third-world country to pay rich American monopolists extra money is an immoral act.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
It is admirable that you want to follow the law, but it is not your decision to make. First, decide if you are willing to go down to the mat on this issue. You may antagonize your superiors and be retaliated against. The threshold question is whether the risk of losing your job or getting your career stalled is acceptable to you. It's perfectly fine to let the matter lie if you feel your job may be at risk in this economy.
Whatever you decide to do, you should cover your ass. Write a formal memo detailing the foreign office's inability to demonstrate that its software is all legit. Call it to the attention of the Beijing folks and a US-based superior. But do not admit that the software is illegal. You do not know if it is. More to the point, it does not violate American law, which is mostly territorial. (The Foreign Corrupt Practices Act covers bribes, not copyright infringement but don't hold me to this.) Just say that you cannot prove the software is legitimate and leave it at that unless you have proof that it is illegal. File a copy of the memo away in a safe place and keep on trucking.
Should you decide to go on the warpath, make sure you have adequate backing. You do not want to be left alone, or be the problem-maker. Work up the numbers and see how much it would cost to go legit. See if you can use this as a selling point: "All our software is legit; the competitors use stolen software that may have trojans or be incompatible." Work on a consensus with your colleagues and superiors.
Lastly, be nice and tactful. Avoid being that douchebag who thinks he is better than everyone else. You cannot be effective if you are that dude. Be chill and try to make a win-win situation.
But if the company management is utterly unwilling to fix the problem, let it drop. Document your suspicions (and say that it is only a suspicion, not proof), send it to the Beijing folks, and save a copy of the memo.
A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
Avoid being that douchebag who thinks he is better than everyone else
I'd say it's probably a bit late for that.
While the poster's motives might appear noble, I don't understand exactly what he's trying to achieve. A promotion, extra brownie points, getting someone in a foreign country fired, or at least severely embarrassed (and they set a lot of store on respect in Asia btw).
He's already approached the person responsible, and voiced his concerns. Just because said person didn't take the action he expected, instead of leaving it alone, he posts it on Slashdot for the world and his wife to comment on. And within a few days it'll be all indexed by Google for posterity.
To me he comes across as an anal retentive asshole who should be spending more time doing his job, rather than trying to shaft other people ... but that's just me, karma be damned.
http://www.bsa.org/ It is completely anonymous.
Why would I - an open source advocate - suggest such a thing? Simple; Forcing people to use and learn from Linux (and thereby allowing Linux to learn from them in turn) is better than passively letting them steal MicroSoft products they can't afford which only improves MicroSoft's ability to leverage their installation base in illegally (in the US at least) anti-competitive practices. This will force MicroSoft to price their software at what its worth or make it worth what they charge.
Why would I claim to be a benevolent person who cares for the good of humanity with such apparently cruel intentions as forcing users to use Linux unwillingly? That answer is also simple but if you don't already know it then it is pointless for me to state it.
If it were 100% impossible to pirate Microsoft and Adobe products, it'd speed up their replacement with open-source software immensely.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I've had to deal with this situation more times than I care for in the last 10 years. Its a very big legal hassle for your company, and their are raids every few years. Not enough to scare the Asian work force into compliance, but its enough of a game of corporate Russian roulette that the risk just isn't worth it.
Not only are many of the Asian offices using pirated software, but are not running any antivirus software. I've routinely tracked down about 80% of all infections at my client offices to their e-mails with their overseas counterparts or from when they are traveling in Asia on business.
Also, much of the pirated versions of the software are riddled with trojans, spyware, and security holes galore. Allowing them to use that software further opens up your entire company up to a breach or leak of information.
I've also seen more than one company fold or nearly go under because one disgruntled person called in an anonymous tip that their current or former companies software was not legit.
In a corporate environment, getting the documentation and legal software is definitely the IT managers job, and an obvious C.Y.A. for anyone in the I.T. department and the company officers... Its those heads that will roll if the B.S.A. shows up with the authorities to audit you.
Of course this will happen with APAC shops unless the APAC employees get training in US buisiness culture, and the US employees get training in Chinese buisiness culture. Bootleg software is the *least* surprise your exectutives will receive unless they get out in front of this issue.
The APAC employees need the "this is how we do things here" speech. They will think you are nuts. If you repeat the speech enough, they will get it.
I hate to say this, but you sound like a paid microsoft poster. Raids? In China? Have you ever been to China? Honestly. Please don't spread FUD. Trust me. I live here.
I would worry about trojans, spyware. These are legitimate concerns.
Another concern is that a lot of development in China takes place on very old slow machines. You want to do development here? Plan on using Microsoft VCC 6.0. Want to buy a copy? Forget it. Microsoft dropped that one about a decade ago. ( actually it is amazing how these kids get so much done working little on 17 inch monitors )
Iâve seen a lot people here using pirated software that is three generations old and no older available. But, it runs 10 times as fast as the new versions, and still seems slow on the old machines here.
It's related to the print method. A design company needs to know exactly what they will be printing, and their printers work on CMYK, not RGB like your screen (and therefore most programs). They therefore prefer to work with CMYK and are limited in their program choice.
To me he comes across as an anal retentive asshole who should be spending more time doing his job
The poster may have been foolhardy bringing it to slashdot, but it is totally his job to be concerned about it. As IT manager he needs to be know about software installed on the company's computers. This applies whether it's pirated, or completely legal copies of software not approved or suitable for the company's business.
Pirated software is more likely to have viruses and malware than legitimate copies. If this branch office is either networked or in regular email contact with the rest of the company, then any IT manager would be being negligent if they weren't taking an interest in what was installed on those computers.
If the IT manager doesn't have enough influence to instruct what should be on those computers, and what should not, then they he needs to tell his superiors he will bear no responsibility for any possible damage traced back to them. If his superiors are fine with that, then so be it. But you'd then be left wondering what they want an IT Manager for.
"GIMP has no CMYK support" is in the same category as "You will lose copyright on anything made with GPL software". It is constantly being repeated by Microsoft marketing people despite being obviously false.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Even the "authentic" software is often pirated in China. I mean with laser stickers sold by the largest brand name stores in China. Even if you wanted to, you might have trouble finding real software.
In my year in China, I seen thousands of computers and not single one had a real copy of windows on it. Even the computer provide to me by my Chinese government handlers for my work had a hot copy.
I promptly installed my own copy of linux. No windows machine in that environment can withstand the volume of malware attacks from every direction. There are virus in the wild in China that simply have not made it in to the virus software yet.
By the way, there are no copies of anti-virus software for sale on the streets either. In over a year, I never seen one single copy, and Chinese I talked to about it think they are silly.
So, switch to linux or live with it. Copying others is a tradition that goes back thousands of years, and it is not going to change simply by the central government outlawing. All property is public property in China.
Living in Chile
Calm down, just a bit or two, there is no need to overreact.
For one thing, whether it is OK to copy software without the consent of the one who produced it is mostly a matter of taste or culture - unlike, say, murder or burglary. The whole idea of "intellectual property rights" is something that is very recent and has come into the world in the West; not to mention the whole idea of private property that underpins it, which one may be excused for thinking is alien to a Communist nation. All that aside, it has long been a part of Chinese culture and tradition to copy things - it is seen as a perfectly legitimate thing to do. You learn calligraphy or other arts by copying the masters, after all; so why not literature or software?
China is well known for using corporate (and other) espionage to further their political agenda.
Really? It isn't well-known to me, among others. You see, when you make a claim like that you need to be able to prove your case. Otherwise it merely ranks as "smug ignorance", on par with all the other prejudices - such as "all muslims are terrorists" or "Jews are money-grabbing misers".
Apart from that, you could substitute "England", "USA", "Israel" or just about any nation for China in that statement and get something equally justified. There is every reason to believe that all countries do this kind of things. Just to take one example: Isn't it true that we keep hearing about how American government agencies want to induce eg. Microsoft to install backdoors in their software? And is that not "espionage to further their political agenda"?
It is too lame to drone on with this sort of automatic demonizing of everybody you don't like or don't understand. The only two effects that is like ly to have is alienating your opponents and making you look stupid. Right now China is storming forward in the world and they are opening up; this is among many other things a great opportunity for the western governments to make friends and influence their policies on all the issues we criticize them for. And who knows, maybe some time in the future we will be glad that we have a friend in China.
If you steal from a grocery store, you deprive them of the groceries they paid for.
Pirating is more like buying from a different grocery store, or growing the food in your garden. That way you deprive them of the sale, but they still have the groceries to sell to someone else.
As another IT manager, I know it's my can in a sling if the license status of the software is questioned and found to be illegal or unauthorized under my watch. It's not only my reputation on the line, but my company's reputation. When I took a stand on a recent plan proposed by one of our consultants, I knew that I was putting my neck out, but I was not going to let my name be listed as a supporter and implementor of a solution that would clearly violate our contract with a service provider. [The consultant wanted us to purchase a limited number of licenses for an online SaaS solution and then share the logon information with everyone in the company when the contract states in plain English that user accounts are intened for individual users and may not be shared.]
I know many of you may shudder at the thought that a company continues to use M$ products, but that decision was already made in this case. Being an American company, comliance with licensing terms is something to which the company may well be held accountable. I think the best advice I've seen here is for this manager to document his concerns, communicate them up and down the tree, and then decide if he is comfortable working in the environment if management continues to overlook the issue.
In my situation, I expressed my concerns about the company's reputation and legal liability issues to my upline, and I offered to walk (while making it clear that staying was my preference) if my stance was incompatible with the company's views on licensing and contract law. Two weeks later, we purchased the additional licenses, and I still have a job.
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
The analogy is more like this:
Say everyone has one of those Star Trek replicators.
Someone goes to the grocery store, and buys an item.
Said someone then puts that in his replicator and then uploads the "recipe" for that item.
Everyone else who wants to, downloads the recipe and creates a copy of that item (from their own raw materials).
I do not see how this is clearly unethical or wrong.
In a Star Trek world, I guess everyone would be able to obtain the raw materials for making whatever meals they want. So there is no food scarcity barring exceptional events.
Of course it'll be harder to be rich from selling food.
But if everyone could eat the best foods in the entire world anytime they wanted, aren't they all now richer than the wealthiest kings 1000 years ago?
A computer in this respect is just a replicator that only works with information.
In the future we might have "real" replicators.
One might argue then that it is immoral and unethical to create an artificial scarcity when there does not have to be one. Preventing people from making copies of all sorts of items, just so that you could make yourself "rich".
Plagiarism would still be wrong - since it involves lying. It'll still be wrong to make a copy and claim it's an original you came up with.
No, the analogy is more like this:
As long as we live in a society where people earn a living by getting paid for their work, there must be a method in place to compensate them for that work. That method is copyright protection. Other methods have been tried, are being tried, and may turn out to work better, but for now copyright is still the law.
We pretty much agree (as a society, though perhaps not as Slashdotters) that it is immoral to willfully violate a just law. Since copyright is not depriving you of any inalienable rights, and since it facilitates the existence of people who create intangible works for a living, there doesn't appear to be anything unjust about copyright.
I commonly hear that, "Copyright infringement isn't stealing because it doesn't deprive anyone of anything." No, it's not stealing, because we decided to make different words for different actions, but it still deprives someone of something -- it deprives someone of compensation for their work. No, that's not a tangible object, but neither is "being alive." Neither is "being free." They're both far more abstract than an audio recording, yet we agree that depriving people of their freedom or life is generally also wrong. There are acceptable reasons for doing all of the above, but "because you wanted to" is not among them.
Are there cases in which copyright fails to create the desired results? Sure. There's abandonware, out of print works, bizzare licensing schemes, etc. But that's no excuse for copying a work just because "I wouldn't have bought it anyway."
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere