Slashdot Mirror
Managing Online Forums
stoolpigeon writes "I vividly remember the first time I was able to dial up a BBS with my Commodore VIC-20. It was Star Trek themed, and I was excited to see that the Sysop was online. We typed a few lines of text back and forth while I hollered to everyone in the house that I was talking to someone through the computer. Things have come a long way since then, and I've put in quite a few hours experiencing one of the more exciting sides of the internet: participating in community. Of course it hasn't all been great. Communities on-line are just like any other, in that there are differences of opinion and issues that arise. Some are handled well, some are not. Social interaction can be very complicated, and learning how to manage a social site can be a process that involves a lot of painful lessons. Fortunately not all of our learning has to come through direct experience. Sometimes we have the opportunity to learn from the experience of others. Patrick O'Keefes book Managing Online Forums is that guide to the budding leader of the web's next great community. Keep reading for the rest of JR's review.
Managing Online Forums
author
Patrick O'Keefe
pages
312
publisher
AMACOM
rating
9/10
reviewer
JR Peck
ISBN
978-0-8144-0197-2
summary
Everything you need to know to create and run successful community discussion boards.
Since the reader will be relying on O'Keefes experience and opinions, his personal history in the subject at hand is extremely relevant. He has been involved in web site design since 1998 and managing online communities since 2000. As the founder and owner of the iFroggy Network he has extensive experience in managing site policy, staff and members. O'Keefe is also active in other communities including his role as a moderator for Sitepoint. Patrick has also published articles there on forum management.
The book's byline is that it provides everything that you need to know to run a successful community discussion board. There is a wide range of topics covered though the emphasis is primarily placed on what I would call the soft side of community management. The technical discussion is limited, though it is there. There is no real discussion of how to go about setting up software. There are some suggestions as to choosing a domain name and software. Two options are given for software, vBulletin and phpBB. Each is described in a summary consisting of a few paragraphs of basic information. There is little discussion of installation from a technical standpoint. The most technical information deals with the core issues of security and backing up data. I didn't see this as a real weakness as there is already plenty of documentation on these choices and many more. Adding it all in would have really bulked up the book while distracting from the primary mission which is informing the reader on building successful communities.
While there is not much technical detail, there is discussion of features from a social perspective. O'Keefe doesn't discuss whether or not a feature should be used because performance or storage ramification but rather focuses on the positives or negatives in terms of managing how participants might view or use those options. This is the information that is not already out there in multiple places. O'Keefe is able to discuss from experience how he has seen users react to these features in the past as well as warning of any possible benefits or pitfalls. This is of course his opinion on these matters. This fact about the nature of the book is going to make or break it for the reader.
I envision that someone would come to this book from three possible positions. They may already have a strong opinion of the issues presented and disagree with the author. On the other hand they may agree. The last group would be people who come without strong presuppositions. I think that the first group would not enjoy the book, there is no objective evidence or argument that will bring these people over. This is after all, subjective opinion. The other two groups I think have a lot to gain, the third group most of all. A person who comes to the material with an open mind, looking for options and guidance will I gain a strong preparation for dealing with a number of issues that are almost certain to arise in online groups.
The book begins by quickly reviewing a set of basic questions that should be asked before a site is set up for a new community. They are fundamental but important and I think it is surprising how many endeavors to build communities don't seem to have considered them. The are, "What will your community cover?", "Whom do you want to attract?", "What will the benefits of your community be?", and "How will you support the community financially?". All of these questions, the naming of the community and site, hosting and software are covered up front.
In each of the following major sections, the author's advice is accompanied by example templates and policies. In chapter three, "Developing Guidelines", the community guidelines for KarateForums.com and SitePoint.com are printed. There are excellent documents in the chapter on managing staff that give good examples of staff guidelines that can be used in those communities that grow and the work of management needs to be shared. All of these are built on real policies and guidelines. The staff section also includes a nice decision matrix for various situations that may arise, such as hot linking or cross posting.
The chapter "Banning Users and Dealing with Chaos" is of course full of interesting examples and history. It is also very valuable. The fact is any successful community will need to deal with adverse conditions and this is where inexperience can be the most costly. O'Keefe outlines likely scenarios and how to handle them. He also gives further examples of guidelines that can help the administrator in staying above the fray and maintaining their sanity when things can be very contentious. From the personal anecdotes, O'Keefe has already been through much of the worse that the web has to offer. This chapter and all that it entails is balance by a chapter on creating a good and healthy environment as well as the importance of keeping things interesting.
Two other chapters deal with what I think of as the business side of running forums. There is a chapter on developing traffic. I was glad to see that this included not only what to do but also what not to do. And there are similar warning within methods that can be used in a positive way or a negative way. O'Keefe cautions against activities that may bring what appear to be short term gains but do not really build sustainable community. While physically separate in the book, I found that this section dovetailed with the chapter on generating income. O'Keefe basically runs down all the various methods for making money with a site. Once again he give the pros and cons as well as strong warnings against the things that are going to be counter productive.
There are three appendices. The first is a list of resources, the second is a set of blank templates that match the examples given in the body of the book and the third is a glossary. I think that glossary is an important because I believe that this book would be an excellent guide to anyone who wants to not only form an online community but is new to the whole idea. These folks may be very caught off guard by the things they will probably need to deal with, beyond the technical issues of getting a site up and running. This book would probably be something that anyone out there setting up sites for others could quickly recommend to help the new manager to be be successful once the site is up and live.
I think there is a lot here also for those with some experience on-line if they don't have a lot of experience running a community site or if they are just looking for some new ideas. I've been corresponding with others electronically for quite a while and I still found quite a bit here that was of value. There is also the strength of going in with policies and actions that are built to head off problems rather than respond to them once they have taken place. I would think this gives any new community a much higher chance of growing and thriving. Managing Online Forums is unique in this regard, to my knowledge. Taking on the human side of managing a site rather than just the technical components.
You can purchase Managing Online Forums from amazon.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.
The book's byline is that it provides everything that you need to know to run a successful community discussion board. There is a wide range of topics covered though the emphasis is primarily placed on what I would call the soft side of community management. The technical discussion is limited, though it is there. There is no real discussion of how to go about setting up software. There are some suggestions as to choosing a domain name and software. Two options are given for software, vBulletin and phpBB. Each is described in a summary consisting of a few paragraphs of basic information. There is little discussion of installation from a technical standpoint. The most technical information deals with the core issues of security and backing up data. I didn't see this as a real weakness as there is already plenty of documentation on these choices and many more. Adding it all in would have really bulked up the book while distracting from the primary mission which is informing the reader on building successful communities.
While there is not much technical detail, there is discussion of features from a social perspective. O'Keefe doesn't discuss whether or not a feature should be used because performance or storage ramification but rather focuses on the positives or negatives in terms of managing how participants might view or use those options. This is the information that is not already out there in multiple places. O'Keefe is able to discuss from experience how he has seen users react to these features in the past as well as warning of any possible benefits or pitfalls. This is of course his opinion on these matters. This fact about the nature of the book is going to make or break it for the reader.
I envision that someone would come to this book from three possible positions. They may already have a strong opinion of the issues presented and disagree with the author. On the other hand they may agree. The last group would be people who come without strong presuppositions. I think that the first group would not enjoy the book, there is no objective evidence or argument that will bring these people over. This is after all, subjective opinion. The other two groups I think have a lot to gain, the third group most of all. A person who comes to the material with an open mind, looking for options and guidance will I gain a strong preparation for dealing with a number of issues that are almost certain to arise in online groups.
The book begins by quickly reviewing a set of basic questions that should be asked before a site is set up for a new community. They are fundamental but important and I think it is surprising how many endeavors to build communities don't seem to have considered them. The are, "What will your community cover?", "Whom do you want to attract?", "What will the benefits of your community be?", and "How will you support the community financially?". All of these questions, the naming of the community and site, hosting and software are covered up front.
In each of the following major sections, the author's advice is accompanied by example templates and policies. In chapter three, "Developing Guidelines", the community guidelines for KarateForums.com and SitePoint.com are printed. There are excellent documents in the chapter on managing staff that give good examples of staff guidelines that can be used in those communities that grow and the work of management needs to be shared. All of these are built on real policies and guidelines. The staff section also includes a nice decision matrix for various situations that may arise, such as hot linking or cross posting.
The chapter "Banning Users and Dealing with Chaos" is of course full of interesting examples and history. It is also very valuable. The fact is any successful community will need to deal with adverse conditions and this is where inexperience can be the most costly. O'Keefe outlines likely scenarios and how to handle them. He also gives further examples of guidelines that can help the administrator in staying above the fray and maintaining their sanity when things can be very contentious. From the personal anecdotes, O'Keefe has already been through much of the worse that the web has to offer. This chapter and all that it entails is balance by a chapter on creating a good and healthy environment as well as the importance of keeping things interesting.
Two other chapters deal with what I think of as the business side of running forums. There is a chapter on developing traffic. I was glad to see that this included not only what to do but also what not to do. And there are similar warning within methods that can be used in a positive way or a negative way. O'Keefe cautions against activities that may bring what appear to be short term gains but do not really build sustainable community. While physically separate in the book, I found that this section dovetailed with the chapter on generating income. O'Keefe basically runs down all the various methods for making money with a site. Once again he give the pros and cons as well as strong warnings against the things that are going to be counter productive.
There are three appendices. The first is a list of resources, the second is a set of blank templates that match the examples given in the body of the book and the third is a glossary. I think that glossary is an important because I believe that this book would be an excellent guide to anyone who wants to not only form an online community but is new to the whole idea. These folks may be very caught off guard by the things they will probably need to deal with, beyond the technical issues of getting a site up and running. This book would probably be something that anyone out there setting up sites for others could quickly recommend to help the new manager to be be successful once the site is up and live.
I think there is a lot here also for those with some experience on-line if they don't have a lot of experience running a community site or if they are just looking for some new ideas. I've been corresponding with others electronically for quite a while and I still found quite a bit here that was of value. There is also the strength of going in with policies and actions that are built to head off problems rather than respond to them once they have taken place. I would think this gives any new community a much higher chance of growing and thriving. Managing Online Forums is unique in this regard, to my knowledge. Taking on the human side of managing a site rather than just the technical components.
You can purchase Managing Online Forums from amazon.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.
I wonder if there's a chapter in it titled "first".
"I'd just like to emphasise that taking a million years isn't a metaphor here..." -Rich Bradshaw
It's not rocket science.
Online forums need to be managed? And is there a chapter in there on trolls?
This guy's the limit!
It is not an easy task ether. I have been running a forum for two or three years (20-30 posts per day), and it has been a lot of work and a lot of problems I wouldn't think of.
What has finally made me quit was a lack of time and problems with spam ... It was getting worse and worse, they find a way to sneak in and they post those 40 penis enlargement adds in it ...
In fact, I am surprised that more books have not been written on this subject. This book is going right on mt reading list.
what does CowboyNeal think about the book?
One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
That one specific example is worth a hundred vague statements? Remember the standard writing mantra: "Show, don't tell." Show us examples of cases he's dealt with, solutions that worked, solutions that failed, etc.
And I'd like to be the king of all Londinium and wear a shiny hat.
Hey, who wants to chip in and buy some copies for the slashdot editors?
That the modem itself was a cartridge that you plugged into the back at 300baud....
That it had 4K of RAM and 8k of ROM.
That the best game for it was UBISOFT's "Spiders of Mars"
That the 5.25 floppy drive was model # 1701, just because... you know... that was cool.
That the disk drive was a huge luxury in itself, and most software shipped on cassette tape.
That the VIC-20 was from the FUTURE, and therefore Commodore's first celebrity spokesperson was Bill Shatner.
Keep 'em coming....
I run a website that, among other things, includes local restaurant "reviews". I have found myself constantly combating not your typical troll (I get some of that, but for the most part it's minimal) but astroturfers. Restaurant owners rarely like what I have to say about their restaurant and being that I usually outrank them on Google, they are trying to get people's opinion swayed their way.
I have to pay close attention to logs including e-mail addresses and IP ranges as well as referrers to piece together their lame attempts. I wonder how many other people out there have a similar problem. Are you noticing an uptick in traffic from mailed URLs with friends, family, and others (sometimes paid via Amazon's Turk) to attempt and negate what is being said on your website/forum?
How about a book specifically for people who post on those same online forums?
I had the pleasure of interviewing Patrick for his book when it first came out last year. http://www.webdevradio.com/index.php?id=69 I was a bit surprised at how useful the book could be. I ran a forum years ago and had to learn how to deal with a lot of issues (involving unruly users, banning people, finding moderators, etc.) I'd say I had about 60-70% of the knowledge and info contained in Patrick's book, and that was after years of having to deal with forums "back in the day" (1997-2002). It's not a *tech* book - there's not info in here about server admin stuff, or code samples, or anything like that. It's more about the social and behavioral aspects of communities. If you're considering starting a community on your site, you owe it to yourself to read this book. As someone else said, I'm surprised there's not more books on this topic.
creation science book
I must admit I am in the same boat. My first computer was a Commodore 64 with a 1200 baud modem that yes was a cartridge that plugged into the back of the keyboard. I still have mine and it still works. I remember the BBS boards and the rules about posting and the points systems. Those were fun!! Although the parents used to complain about the phone being tied up. We didn't have tone dialing either at that time so pulse dialing was painfully slow!!! Good memories and nice story!!!
It had 3.5 K ram , you could later get a 9K ram expander , and 16K ram exapnder hten a ctridge that was the 32 K rma expander.
It had no Floppy drive to start with YOU had a tape cassete drive you coudl winfod forward and back and control that with your data.
AND in fact if you actually had a vic 20 you would know it had 64K of read only memory ,
that you could "poke" and "peek" into using commodore basic to get effects like 8 bit graphical sprites and such , and create your own zork like adventure games with your own vocabulary designs.
Ya i was 12 but i was making gmaes on it and so were lads at GM.....
Yeah, because listserv groups are so well behaved....
whether it's a BBS, Usenet group, listserv, or Wordpress blog with feedback, user groups are user groups and it doesn't take more than a couple of bad actors to spoil the experience.
Moderators who care and connect well with the group seem to be key to a thriving open community, regardless of technology.
" As someone else said, I'm surprised there's not more books on this topic."
=====
There are plenty of books on this 'subject'.
usually under the subject heading of social psychology...or, seeing the method of online community interactio, perhaps operant conditioning would be more appropriate :D
Trolls? I have a forum on my climbing gym web site, and thanks to these ardent posters I am well-hung (male enhancement), smell nice (imitation cologne), have awesome kicks (deals on Nike knock-offs), and I am well-traveled (airline tickets). They provide an invaluable service.
Help fight poverty: Punch a poor person.
Agreed. As a former SysOp and echo co-moderator, I recognize that managing an online forum isn't a technical process, it's a social process. It's always been a social process. A lot of people seem to think you can create a few policies, put a few technical controls in place and let the crowd moderate itself and that's just going to magically work. Not that I know anyone like that around here...
My blog
Yeah, because listserv groups are so well behaved....
*Reply to All* - "Please take me off this list and stop spamming me."
Like dropping a lit match into a gasoline tanker.
... if any sites like gizmodo or engadget (who have had challenges with moderation) will have their editors give it a read, or perhaps comment here on the challenges.
.. pa-ra-bo-la, pa-ra-bo-la, 2 pi R, 2 pi R, where's your latus rectum, where's your latus rectum, 2 pi R
Actually I do, more than a few. And no I don't do it because it's my job. My email client sorts them into mail boxes and I read them when I have time. I do get behind, but I can run thru a couple of hundred postings looking for the interesting ones and catch up quickly.
"Yahoo Groups sucks"
There, fixed that for you
I would think that you would allow the comments if they came from separate people, even if those separate people were friends and family members. At least they are not pretending to be different people; that would be crossing the line.
I probably think that way because I am not a fan of censorship. You're providing a soapbox and limiting who can use it. Which is your right, it's your soapbox.
If anything it would promote people to go and try the restaurant and make the decision on if it is good or not on their own. After doing this a few times, they would find out if their tastes fall in line with your or not. Assuming they do, they would learn to trust what you said, regardless of what anyone else posts.
Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
Please don't misunderstand... I ask for the input of the public and I really want to hear it. What I do not want to see are several comments, all from the same IP address, originating from the same Yahoo Mail referrer, using e-mail addresses which bounce, and giving words of praise about how awesome everything was for them.
If someone is an owner or otherwise affiliated with an establishment, I want to hear them say exactly that. They don't want to say that because they know how it looks to others reading their content.
Oh yeah, you are definitely not alone. :) This is something that happens in all spaces. For example, I wrote a controversial blog post a while back and I had someone post four times in a row, using a different name each time, agreeing with him or herself. :) Fun!
I think that, in this case, it would be good to take action against the obvious ones and leave the rest. I think of it as a problem and I deal with it when it is obvious, but I try not to jump to any conclusions if I can help it. I sympathize with you, definitely.
Patrick O'Keefe, Author, "Managing Online Forums"
LOL. Well done.
Patrick O'Keefe, Author, "Managing Online Forums"
I agree with this, backed when I said: "pretending to be different people; that would be crossing the line"
I was commenting on this portion:
Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
if it listed forums of moderators who already follows that advise. So we can cut out time on forums populated by trolls, astroturfers, and fascist admins who only allow their political views to be aired and censor everything else or chase away the users by becoming bullies and trolls to them.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
The quickest way to ruin a good forum is to tell other people where it is.
paintball
I've run several social sites, here's the only advice you need for moderating:
1. Use a light touch, gentle moderation works wonders.
2. Always handle things in private if possible.
3. Avoid posting as an administrator.
4. Never, EVER, EVER make it personal.
5. Use a light touch, gentle moderation works wonders.
I started in 1985, C-Net 64, I've seen enough users, flamewars, and total meltdowns.
Well said, JoeMerchant. It's important to have moderators who are consistent, kind and who set an example that all can follow.
Patrick O'Keefe, Author, "Managing Online Forums"
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Use NNTP. Listservs are an abomination.
Thanks Michael. I really appreciate that.
Patrick O'Keefe, Author, "Managing Online Forums"
I thought Slashdot had to remove the posts the Scientologist abjected with?
Skip ------ See the latest from http://www.anArchyFortWorth.com
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I had to shut my forums down because the spam problem got so out of control. Funny how far blogs are ahead of forums in keeping control of this stuff.
StoneCypher is Full of BS
Oh yeah, you're right that's pretty much what I did - its starting to come back to me. I used to know all the hex codes for assembly commands, registers, etc. I doubt that much memory is going to come back though...
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice; in practice there is.
BAN OFTEN.
First post is an ebay auction? Ban.
"First" posts? Ban.
Using "Teh" intentionally? Ban.
Registering with a nickname composed completely of numbers, letters and no vowels? Application rejected.
Intelligent conversation? Priceless.
Thankfully not in my experience. Got my first freeze mucking around with free Second Life access last night and watched some punk chick avatar with a spike ball punch my avatar's crotch repeatedly while I researched the problem.
I'm sure that these dishonest astroturfers could profit from an honestly signed reply, it wouldn't look bad at all. Perhaps a thanks, perhaps a note to their potential customers, even a rebuttal of your critique, whatever they say it's idiotic not to use your venue to get in some sort of direct advertising via a reasonable signed comment instead of backhanded indirect astroturfing. Such is human nature I guess, always looking for the easy way when the obvious but harder way is staring them in the face.
I've used YG for too long and am growing tired of their latest tactics: [1] putting arbitrary spaces in any long char string (including URLs), [2] arbitrarily not delivering email.
/.ers recommend/use? (I would prefer to not host a listserv...)
What other free alternatives do
I come here for the love
Unfortunately in any forum/social networking site/online community there will always be people who will try to game the system for their own benefit. That benefit may be financial or it may be social (ie top ranking). The trick is building a system that rewards participation and discourages the gaming. I don't think anyone has managed to get it right yet.