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"Liquid Wood" a Contender To Replace Plastic

Ostracus recommends a Christian Science Monitor piece on the 40-year quest to find a replacement for non-biodegradable plastic. One candidate, written off 20 years back but now developed to the point of practicality, is a formulation based on the lignin found in wood. And it turns out there is another strong environmental reason to put lignin to use in this way: burning it, which is its common fate today, releases the carbon dioxide that trees had sequestered. "Almost 40 years ago, American scientists took their first steps in a quest to break the world's dependence on plastics. But in those four decades, plastic products have become so cheap and durable that not even the forces of nature seem able to stop them. A soupy expanse of plastic waste — too tough for bacteria to break down — now covers an estimated 1 million square miles of the Pacific Ocean. ...[R]esearchers started hunting for a substitute for plastic's main ingredient, petroleum. They wanted something renewable, biodegradable, and abundant enough to be inexpensive."

35 of 226 comments (clear)

  1. Calling this "liquid wood" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is like calling ethanol "liquid grain." There's a big difference between being derived from a given substance and having the properties of that substance.

    Not that this isn't nice and all, but picking science fiction-ish titles for things keeps you from being taken seriously.

    1. Re:Calling this "liquid wood" by ptx0 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Also, they have pills to fix this now.

    2. Re:Calling this "liquid wood" by Jeremi · · Score: 3, Informative

      Pardon my ignorance, but aren't we trying to REDUCE the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere? Maybe it's better than burning plastic, but this seems backwards to me.

      What they meant (but phrased poorly) was that by extracting the lignin from the wood, the CO2 is kept sequestered inside the lignin, rather than being allowed to escape back into the atmosphere (which is what would happen if the wood were burned or allowed to biodegrade)

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    3. Re:Calling this "liquid wood" by X0563511 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The CO2 that comes from plastic, was pulled from the ground. Without us, it would have stayed there, for possibly an extremely long time.

      The CO2 that comes from trees, was already in the air, and only was temporarily pulled out into the tree. On the tree's death, the CO2 would have released (as it rotted, or burned, depending).

      So, while looking at the small picture, it's no better. But, zooming out to the big picture, it's a world better.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    4. Re:Calling this "liquid wood" by slarabee · · Score: 5, Informative

      My reading of this vaguely written sentence is that lignin is currently being burned. If instead used as a petroleum replacement in plastic-like materials it would not be burned -- at least not until it hits the post consumer trash incinerator.

      Is lignin extracted from wood in any other industries besides paper production? Would the paper industry be able to supply enough lignin to replace even a fraction of the plastic currently being produced? Even if it did, sounds like that would simply shift the burning from lignin in the wood fiber to petroleum products.

      At the paper mill where I recently worked, the lignin was not burned just for the pleasure of it. The quicky skipping a couple dozen steps process is as follows... The lignin is extracted from the wood pulp by a cocktaail of sodium family chemicals casually referred to as liquor. When loaded with nice potential energy filled lignin, the liquor is referred to as black liquor. The black liquor is piped to the recovery boilers where the lignin burns out leaving nice clean white liquor and a lot of high pressure steam. The white liquor is in closed loop system and goes back to pick up more lignin. The high pressure steam is used on the actual paper machines and drives turbines to provide nearly one hundred percent of the electrical power needed by the entire mill.

      Remove the lignin by another process so that it can be used to make 'liquid wood'. Now where will the mill get its high pressure steam? Burning petroleum products just like it does now when there is an upset condition in the supply of black liquor. Lots of natural gas. Lots.

    5. Re:Calling this "liquid wood" by Chabil+Ha' · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not only that, but the biodegradability of such a substance is over-played as well. Take a drive down to the local landfill, dig down quite a bit and you will find that many biodegradable substances that have been there for 20+ years have not really biodegraded at all. This is caused by the fact that the biodegradability of a substance is often dependent on the oxygen available to organisms to breakdown the substance. Thus, if you pack the trash too tightly, you create an anaerobic environment where organisms are less efficient at breaking things down.

      What we really need is a better method of disposal, not necessarily creating new kinds of substances.

      --
      We're all hypocrites. We all have hidden parts, it's the contrast between them that make us more a hypocrite than others
    6. Re:Calling this "liquid wood" by WalksOnDirt · · Score: 4, Interesting

      ...dig down quite a bit and you will find that many biodegradable substances that have been there for 20+ years have not really biodegraded at all

      If these substances contain much carbon, that sounds like a good thing from a global warming perspective. Maybe we should change our goals and embrace this.

      --
      a,e,i,o,u and sometimes w and y (at be if of up cwm by)
    7. Re:Calling this "liquid wood" by narcberry · · Score: 4, Funny

      I thought that is what the pills were called.

      --
      Modding me -1 troll doesn't make me wrong.
    8. Re:Calling this "liquid wood" by Firethorn · · Score: 4, Informative

      To be perfectly honest, I'm against biodegradable products in areas that demand environmental resistance. I'd hate to have a biodegradable roof, for example. ;)

      Still, my shampoo being biodegradable is for the best.

      To get to the parent's point, biodegradation is essentially rotting, a slow form of combustion. Life forms, just like humans, eat whatever, break down the hydrocarbons and exhaust it as H2O and CO2.

      So if the idea is to prevent the release of CO2, the prevention of rotting is a good thing. One CO2 sequestration method often talked about up here is a couple of different plowing methods that tends to keep CO2 in the ground. They're talking about being able to sell them as carbon credits. Some already are. Thing is, those very methods are also good for soil fertilization and preservation, so they're just good business practices depending on the soil; many were already doing it.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    9. Re:Calling this "liquid wood" by gnick · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You bring up an interesting issue that's often misunderstood or intentionally ignored by people arguing for a cause using CO2 emissions as their only back-up. If your only goal is to reduce the amount of carbon in the atmosphere, you need to:
      1) Support our managed timberlands
      2) Argue that the trees should be felled as soon as they stop producing ounce-for-ounce as much lumber as could be produced on the same footprint by fresh-planted trees
      3) Demand that the trees are treated and used as lumber (rather than paper) and land-filled after use. Or, preferably, preserved and land-filled immediately rather than being trucked around for construction.

      The carbon is trapped in the wood, sealed to prevent short-term release, and imprisoned in a landfill. Hey, we can put a park on top =).

      This is, of course, a stupid plan, but friendly in terms of CO2 emissions. There is a balance there that's often overlooked by tree-huggers and owl-slashers alike.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    10. Re:Calling this "liquid wood" by Firethorn · · Score: 4, Informative

      rust though, specifies iron.

      And do you really think that just because it's done in a organism/cell that the reaction is any less energetic? Improperly stored grain/hay can get so hot that it ends up combusting from the heat of rotting.

      At least according to Wikipedia, cellular respiration is a form of slow combustion.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    11. Re:Calling this "liquid wood" by Genda · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually he's absolutely correct, thinking of a metabolic process as a slow motion combustion is perfectly appropriate, and if you haven't heard biologist and physiologists talk about "Burning" calories for years, you've lead too sheltered an existence. They mean precisely that, you take a carbohydrate, you introduce it to oxygen, it reduces to water and CO2, and energy is liberated. The magic in the mitochodria is that the process is controlled so you don't become hard boiled.

      Though there have been a number of cases of athletes who've exercised either without proper hydration, or in climates where the humidity prevents evaporative cooling, who've raised their body core temperatures to that magic 110 degrees, cooking the proteins in their bodies (just like hard boiling an egg) and stopping any chance of future metabolism.

    12. Re:Calling this "liquid wood" by Plunky · · Score: 4, Funny

      What happened to the machine that could "microwave" plastic to break it down into its components?

      it was made of plastic :(

    13. Re:Calling this "liquid wood" by Genda · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You bring up an interesting issue that's often misunderstood or intentionally ignored by people arguing for a cause using CO2 emissions as their only back-up. If your only goal is to reduce the amount of carbon in the atmosphere, you need to:
      1) Support our managed timberlands
      2) Argue that the trees should be felled as soon as they stop producing ounce-for-ounce as much lumber as could be produced on the same footprint by fresh-planted trees
      3) Demand that the trees are treated and used as lumber (rather than paper) and land-filled after use. Or, preferably, preserved and land-filled immediately rather than being trucked around for construction.

      The carbon is trapped in the wood, sealed to prevent short-term release, and imprisoned in a landfill. Hey, we can put a park on top =).

      This is, of course, a stupid plan, but friendly in terms of CO2 emissions. There is a balance there that's often overlooked by tree-huggers and owl-slashers alike.

      Anybody who suggests managing global atmospheric carbon starts with managing "Timber" has got a really messed up idea about how the environment works. That is like saying to cure you of cancer we have to kill the tumors, so we're going to give you a pound of arsenic... you will certainly be cured of the cancer.

      Let's look at the gaping holes in this thinking;

      1. Managed forests are simply timber farms. All semblance to a working ecosystem have been eliminated and they are more sterile than desserts. Worse, because thet grow at most one or two species of "Timber products" which are monoclonal, they are subject to catostrophic failure to pests and diseases. They require heavy use of pesticides, further damaging biodiversity on land and in streams and rivers, and are a flat out environmental disaster.
      2. These managed forests are often clearcut and come with extensive roads and heavy machinery, leading to further serious environmental damage due to rivers and stream from silting and soil erosion, and poor land management.
      3. Finally the idea of burying wood products in landfills is poorly thought out. We are already running out of landfill space, trying to hide billions of board feet of lumber in them is just not possible. Even if it were, the heat and pressure of landfills would cause the wood to breakdown and begin emitting methane, and greenhouse gas 20 times more potent than CO2. This is simply a very bad plan

      So I must totally agree with you on your evaluation of this being a stupid plan. I do however take exception with your portrayal of "Tree Huggers". Don't get me wrong, I appreciate that there are emotional, crunchy granola, earth firsters who would be happy to see homo sapiens disappear tomorrow. I consider these folks an aberation. A religious cult with a seriously warped view of reality. On the other hand. There are scientists, scholars, and a whole raft of thoughtful, intelligent and informed people who are seriously interested in a future with people in it. We have used our world as a toilet for a very long time (look at the margins of any American highway to get the picture I'm painting.) There's an old saying, you don't SH*T where you eat. Sadly, as a species we're learning first hand why that bit of simple logic is so vital. A significant number of young men in this latest generation are now suffering from the effects of psuedo-estrogens in the food and water we consume because there's virtually no control of the tens of thousands of chemicals we've introduced into our environment without so much as a question to the impact those chemicals might have on us and the other life forms on the planet. Atmospheric carbon it a critically important issue, but it points to a much larger problem. Human beings are threaten by their own poor judgement, and lack of ability to accurately guage what is a real threat and what's not. People are worried about sharks at the beach when more people die of lightening strikes every year. However, they have no problem moving into mobile homes built directly

  2. Quote from TFA by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 5, Funny

    "The lignin itself was misunderstood completely by [leaders in the field] and the majority of people," says Simo Sarkanen, an environmental science professor at the University of Minnesota.

    Does that sound like a mad scientist to anyone else? "My research has been completely misunderstood, but I will change the world! And then they'll see! They'll pay for their ignorance! MUAHAHAHAHA!"

    --
    Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
  3. Great, now they have to refilm The Graduate by Quarters · · Score: 3, Funny

    Mr. McGuire: I want to say one word to you. Just one word. Benjamin: Yes, sir. Mr. McGuire: Are you listening? Benjamin: Yes, I am. Mr. McGuire: Lignin. Benjamin: Exactly how do you mean? Mr. McGuire: There's a great future in lignin. Think about it. Will you think about it?

  4. Next step by jmknsd · · Score: 5, Funny

    transparent aluminum.

    1. Re:Next step by flyingfsck · · Score: 3, Interesting

      We already have transparent aluminium. It is commonly known as saphire and your wrist watch 'glass' is made from it.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  5. Lignin used to be the same way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Once upon a time, when woody plants first evolved, there was nothing that could break them down. As a result, dead trees piled up hundreds of feet deep all over the world until bacteria evolved that could finally eat the stuff. This went on for long enough to leave the huge amount of coal that is still buried today.

    I would hope that some form of bacteria will develop the ability to eat various forms of plastic, as that's the only way that trash island is ever going away...

    1. Re:Lignin used to be the same way by MrNaz · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yea, these alarmists just like scaring people. The biosphere will evolve to deal with any problems we create today. This means that there's hope for our great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grand children after all.

      --
      I hate printers.
    2. Re:Lignin used to be the same way by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There are already bacteria that can attack certain plastics(using an enzyme appropriately called "nylonase". Fairly quick work for a chemical that didn't exist until 1935. Shockingly enough, team creationism doesn't approve).

      The trouble, though, is those situations where plastics are destroying some part of the ecosystem far faster than organisms can evolve to clean them up. In the Great Pacific Garbage patch, for instance, the plastic is entering the food chain at an impressive clip and annhilating seabird populations. I'm sure the bacteria will have something figured out within a couple of centuries; but they might not have all that much company when they do.

    3. Re:Lignin used to be the same way by flyingfsck · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Coal wasn't made from trees. Coal was made from the seed pods of ferns - unimaginable quantities of ferns and seed pods, over millions of years. The really interesting thing though is taht coal occurs in multiple seams with millions of years of intervening time. So the tropical rain forest climate that was needed for the ferns to grow, happened multiple times and therefore can happen again.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  6. Re:More than one type of plastic by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 5, Informative

    We *can* create oil, even out of plain CO2 if necessary. We do have the chemical knowledge for that you know.

    Making any plastic will be still as easy as it is today : you buy some type of oil-derivative at the store, and polymerisize it. Easy enough.

    It will however, be a very costly thing to do indeed : it requires loads of energy. Right now that energy has simply been put in oil long ago, and making most plastics is in fact an exotherm process.

    We will still make plastics. Producing them, however, will stop producing energy and start massively costing energy.

    So that leaves multiple scenarios open. If we do get fusion operational somehow, for example, plastics will likely be as abundant as they are today, at least for a while. Even if we don't nuclear power is probably cheap enough to provide all those "specialty plastics", maybe even at comparable prices. The mass-market plastic will be the only thing disappearing.

    My guess is, we'd replace it by another extremely useful and versatile substance we so massively used before the oil started to get so widespread : Iron. It's only marginally more expensive than plastics (mostly due to the mines' labour cost, there is more than enough iron in the ground to coat the entire earth with it several times). Instead of buying your salami in cheap plastic packaging you'll simply buy it in a can.

  7. Great Pacific Garbage Patch by j1m+5n0w · · Score: 4, Informative

    For the benefit of the curious reader, here's some more information on the Great Pacific Garbage Patch that you (and the summary) mention.

  8. Re:Repurposing excess plastic... by jipn4 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The stuff that's floating around there is much, much harder to extract and use (it's tiny particles suspended in water) than the stuff we are still dumping every day. If we can't even be bothered to recycle all plastics and organics when they are in big trucks, what makes you think it's economical to do it halfway around the world, filtering millions of gallons of water to get at it?

  9. Re:okayyy... soooo...... by Upaut · · Score: 4, Informative

    Okay, so we're going to grow trees to make "lignin plastic" and then the stuff is going into landfills where it will biodegrade and will release CO2. How is this better?

    This is better because in this case the product is "Carbon Neutral", as in it is releasing CO2 that the plants had used to grow. When we use petroleum products, the CO2 released is from carbon that was taken out of the cycle and buried deep underground... Now eventually it would even out in a few millennia... The Earth had handled this carbon before... But the Earth would not be the climate that we as humans are used to... The ecosystem using that much carbon had far more plant growth... As such much, much more Oxygen in the air. Which in turn can support much larger animals. Especially insects.... A warmer, oxygen-rich, swampy environment.

    --
    3 degrees of separation from Vladimir Putin
  10. here's your answer by jipn4 · · Score: 3, Informative

    http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/Ocean/Ocean-Plastic-Landfill-Algalita1nov02.htm

    I am often asked why we can't vacuum up the particles. In fact, it would be more difficult than vacuuming up every square inch of the entire United States, it's larger and the fragments are mixed below the surface down to at least 30 meters. Also, untold numbers of organisms would be destroyed in the process. Besides, there is no economic resource that would be directly benefited by this process. We have not yet learned how to factor the health of the environment into our economic paradigm. We need to get to work on this calculus quickly, for a stock market crash will pale by comparison to an ecological crash on an oceanic scale.

  11. Didn't we have this over a century ago? by kimvette · · Score: 3, Informative

    Didn't we have this (plastic made from wood) over a century ago?

    It's called cellophane.

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    1. Re:Didn't we have this over a century ago? by flyingfsck · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yup, we also had plastic made from milk, called casein, a long time before the first Bakelite was made.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  12. Ping Pong Balls by flyingfsck · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Ping Pong Balls are made of celluloid. Plastic made from wood. What is old will be new again...

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  13. Re: Seed pods of ferns? by macraig · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Ummm... no. Ferns don't have seed pods. Ferns produce spores, which are far smaller than most seeds (orchid seeds perhaps being an exception).

    I rather doubt your statement is true, that petroleum is comprised of nothing but decomposed fern spore. Could you please cite a reasonably authoritative source?

  14. The crucial thing is the lignin content by Aviation+Pete · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As the article carefully states, even Arboform uses only 50% lignin (yes, I *did* RTFA). The rest is made up of rather expensive "additives" - one crucial ingredient being Ecoflex, a synthetic (= oil-based) polymer which is needed to reduce the extreme brittleness of genuine lignin.

    Two hopes spelled out in the articles will never materialize:
    - it will never be as cheap as oil-based plastics are today, and
    - it will never be able to replace most of the current oil-based plastics due to it's poor mechanical properties (unless we reduce the lignin content even further).

    --
    You know it's time for the next revolution when your rulers' names end with roman numerals.
  15. The original plastics were plant based by tigerbody1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In the early days - 7 plants were named and shown to be excellent oil sources.
    And these oil sources can be combined with a hardener to become a "plastic"
    Soy oil was one of the first.

    George Overley was the chemist working for Henry Ford to create many plant based components for Ford cars and trucks. Around 30 different components were plant based until Henry Ford was kicked out of the company he started.
    The most famous is the Soy plastic bumpers that are mostly mistaken as Hemp Plastic by Jack Herrer in
    "The Emperor Wears No Cloths"

  16. It's already here. by moosesocks · · Score: 5, Informative

    Although lingin-based plastics may be something new, bioplastics are by no means new.

    By pure and honest coincidence, I have a disposable cup made out of a plant-based bioplastic sitting on my desk that I got from a restaurant along with some take-out earlier today.

    It's virtually indistinguishable from a normal plastic cup, and actually looks a bit nicer than your typical disposable drinkware -- the crystal-clear bioplastic is sturdy and has a nice 'shine' to it. It's biodegradable, and contains no oil-based inputs, although you'd never guess it by looking at it or handling it.

    The manufacturers of the biopolymer claim that it can be adapted to all sorts of other products, at what seem to be fairly reasonable prices (~$1/kg). What's not to love?

    --
    -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
  17. Well, there are seed ferns by Giant+Electronic+Bra · · Score: 3, Informative

    Or at least were. During the Devonian period these plants spread rapidly across the land and created the first forests.

    However I don't know of any source that claims that these seed pods are the primary constituent of coal.

    First of all the largest bulk of ancient coal deposits were laid down during the Carboniferous period, which followed the Devonian. These periods are all 10's of millions of years long and certainly bacteria evolved to eat lignin on a shorter time scale than that. In fact it is actually fungus that do most of the eating of wood anyway.

    It is also not true that coal was only formed in one or a few specific geological periods. There are coal deposits which formed in every period from the Devonian on through to relatively recent periods in the Cenozoic Era. LOTS of coal formed in the Carboniferous and a lot of it is now high quality coal.

    And anyone that has seen what sorts of stuff is in coal deposits will know that the vast majority of it was all sorts of different plant materials. There are leaves, trunks, roots, branches, etc all in the coal and in some places there are whole FORESTS turned to coal where all this stuff is still quite plainly visible. So maybe fern seed pods are a decent part of that, I don't know, but it is a lot more complex than that and even a modern forest could turn to coal in the right conditions.

    --
    "Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson