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Russia Aims Towards Mars

Iddo Genuth writes "Russia's Federal Space Agency (Roscosmos) has announced its intentions to build a low-orbit space station which, according to the agency, will support future exploration of the moon and Mars. There's also a suggestion to extend the operational lifespan of the International Space Station by five more years, resetting its retirement date to 2020. The project proposal is already on its way for review by the Russian government. Some Russian sources also reportedly proposed the (rather ludicrous) idea of converting the ISS into some kind of an interplanetary transport vehicle, which would serve as the 'ultimate mother ship' in manned planetary missions to the moon or even Mars."

19 of 161 comments (clear)

  1. Perfect! by russlar · · Score: 5, Funny

    The Reds are going to the Red Planet!

    --
    Anybody want my mod points?
    1. Re:Perfect! by SIR_Taco · · Score: 5, Funny

      Didn't realize that Cincinnati was having trouble with their franchise... a shame the team had to leave the country and an even bigger shame they had to leave the planet.

      --
      I say don't drink and drive, you might spill your drink. Before you get behind the wheel just stop and think.
  2. Moving ISS not a crazy idea at all by eagl · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Moving the ISS is not such a crazy idea at all, and it's been proposed already by some smart people as a way to increase moon mission payoffs and reduce mission risks. A series of orbit boosts could eventually lead to a transfer orbit and lunar orbital insertion. Once in lunar orbit it would be at reduced risk of damage from orbital trash. Yes, sending up resupply and crew swapouts would be more difficult, but remember we would already be doing that for manned lunar operations so it's really not that much of a stretch.

    Moving it to mars... Now that's a bit of a stretch but it might be possible with a propulsion efficiency breakthrough that could be powered by existing solar arrays or a bolt-on reactor. Still though, I think the idea of using it to support lunar operations might be an interesting idea especially as an alternative to letting it die after such a slow and expensive build-up with gross under-use as a science platform since it's been manned due to problems with the shuttle program.

    The big question is: Once the shuttle is out of the picture, why keep the ISS where it is? Why not just put it wherever it is the most useful?

    1. Re:Moving ISS not a crazy idea at all by EdIII · · Score: 5, Informative

      Moving the ISS is not such a crazy idea at all

      You're right, it's not crazy. They have actually gone "plaid" instead. Sure, most of what you are saying is interesting and insightful. It just overlooks the fact that the ISS has been plagued with malfunctions and other serious problems. Quite frankly, it's the Yugo of space stations. Yeah, its "gets us there", but it is not something we want to "drive" across the Solar System.

    2. Re:Moving ISS not a crazy idea at all by X0563511 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The hard part of moving it to Mars, is not the propulsion system. Rockets work well.

      The issue is moving it without structural damage. You have to make sure that each module gets JUST the RIGHT amount of thrust relative to the others, so that the whole thing wants to move at the same delta. If one part's delta is off to much... crack!

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    3. Re:Moving ISS not a crazy idea at all by EdIII · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It is better to use ISS in any way, but destroying it burning down the Earth atmosphere.

      Send around moon with full systems working and fulled with fuel etc,
      it can serve as life boat or even one of the stations supporting Moon exploration.

      If it could be sent to Mars orbit, it could be used upon human arrival on Mars orbit.

      It's just not a good idea. I can see that you value efficiency and find waste distasteful. However, you are just not considering the situation carefully.

      Let's say you are some place near the U.S and Canadian border where it gets near freezing. You have an older space heater and a bunch of blankets and warm clothes. Generally, the space heater is serving you well. It's malfunctioned a couple of times, but you were able to use more blankets and some warmer clothes. In short order you were able to use some tools and some parts obtained from a local supply store and fix your "trusty" old space heater. One time you were just too tired and went over to a friend's house for the night.

      Now, let's say you are are lot farther north of the equator. You are literally 1,000 miles away from the nearest warm shelter and local hardware store. If the space heater breaks down, you cannot find another heat source before you freeze and die.

      In space, this situation is thousands of times worse. Reliability and redundancy are not just mission critical considerations, but life critical situations. This MUST be your primary consideration at all times. My tax dollars paid for parts of the ISS and I would want it to get the greatest amount of use before it is decommissioned. However, I don't want to risk the lives of astronauts just to keep using a piece of equipment.

      AFAIK, there have been problems with the ISS where the situation could have been far more serious had it been orbiting around the Moon, or worse Mars.

    4. Re:Moving ISS not a crazy idea at all by raistlinwolf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's just not a good idea. I can see that you value efficiency and find waste distasteful. However, you are just not considering the situation carefully...

      Well, consider how much refined materials cost in space, what is wrong with sending it to the moon or to Mars? Somebody might want a bolt or some wire one day, aboard whatever ideal craft they follow up with.

    5. Re:Moving ISS not a crazy idea at all by DerekLyons · · Score: 5, Informative

      Moving the ISS is not such a crazy idea at all, and it's been proposed already by some smart people as a way to increase moon mission payoffs and reduce mission risks. A series of orbit boosts could eventually lead to a transfer orbit and lunar orbital insertion.

      You're right - it isn't a crazy idea. It's a barking-at-the-moon freakin' lunatic idea, proposed only by folks who are either crazy themselves or (being kind) utterly innocent of any acquaintance with the facts.
       
      To start with, the ISS isn't designed to be operated unmanned. Next, the electronics onboard ISS aren't shielded against the radiation in the Van Allen Belts. Lastly, it's thermal controls are designed for the warm conditions of LEO not the arctic icebox of lunar orbit.
       
      So yeah, in theory you could boost about 500 Shuttle loads of fuel and move it to Lunar orbit... In practice, it'll arrive there dead.
       
       

      Moving it to mars... Now that's a bit of a stretch but it might be possible with a propulsion efficiency breakthrough that could be powered by existing solar arrays or a bolt-on reactor.

      Sure, it's a stretch. Kind of like saying it's a stretch for me to fly from Seattle to New York by flapping my arms - though it might be possible for with a propulsion efficiency breakthrough, like strapping a 747 to my back.

    6. Re:Moving ISS not a crazy idea at all by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Funny

      You can accelerate more or less as slowly as you want; but Mars is a long way away, and astronauts have all sorts of whiney demands like "I need air" and "ionizing radiation makes me a sad panda" which make getting there as fast as possible attractive.

    7. Re:Moving ISS not a crazy idea at all by Civil_Disobedient · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Hence the complete craziness of throwing away all those shuttle primary fuel tanks.

      Many of them are still in orbit, still being tracked by ground stations. But you're right, most of them are actually ditched over the Indian Ocean. The irony is that the shuttle could actually be more efficient if they knew they were going to re-use the tank in orbit, because they wouldn't have to waste the fuel necessary to perform the MET ditch maneuver.

      Each fuel tank weighs more than the total shuttle payload. That's an enormous amount of raw materials that are already up in space to work with. But this is not an original idea... people have been talking about converting main fuel tanks into crew habitats for years.

      The first mention was back in 1979 by a group of undergraduate students writing for a competition at the International Astronautical Congress. It was entitled, appropriately enough Space Shuttle External Tank Used as a Space Station.

      They ended up winning first prize, but naturally nothing was ever done about it.

    8. Re:Moving ISS not a crazy idea at all by DerekLyons · · Score: 4, Informative

      Lastly, it's thermal controls are designed for the warm conditions of LEO not the arctic icebox of lunar orbit.

      I'm curious. Apart from the altitude, what's the difference between a 90 minute polar orbit around the moon as opposed to a 90 minute polar orbit around the earth?

      Well, somewhat simplified they can be compared this way: 90 miles above the Earth, the ISS 'sees' (thermally) the warm Earth beneath it. (Think of how it feels standing near a bonfire.) 90 miles above the moon, the moon fills much less of the sky, and while warmer on the day side is much (much) colder on the night side. (Think standing in front of a small electric heater.)
       
      People are used to thinking only in terms of the sun when it comes to thermal environment of space, but that is the result of years of journalistic simplifications. (I know you've heard it too - "blazing hot in the sun, freezing cold in the dark".) In reality, its a bit more complicated than that.

  3. And then by Kingrames · · Score: 5, Funny

    Mars, ever eager to fight, aims right the fuck back.

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  4. Stop misunderstanding Russian space announcements by Jafafa+Hots · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Russia is ALWAYS announcing things like this - Klipr, manned Mars missions, etc. I've lost track of how many times they've "announced" they're going to Mars, or some other huge project.

    The reason why this keeps happening is because in part we in the west are misunderstanding the way the Russian space program works.

    They don't announce plans in the way for example NASA would. In Russia, they continually plan these things, then float out the ideas to see if they can get support and funding - and in the last 20 years or so, international investment.
    If they DON'T get funders to sign on, it goes nowhere, and in a year or so they trot out another proposal.

    This is NOT an announcement of a plan, it's a marketing pitch. They're saying "we could do this, anyone out there wanna pay for it?"

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    This space available.
  5. Weird... by Nicopa · · Score: 4, Funny

    In soviet space, you can hear no one screaming...

    (!)

  6. Russia Saves US Manned Spaceflight? by BlueStrat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's quite ironic that it looks like the only thing that will save US manned spaceflight & planetary exploration from becoming a sacrificial lamb on the altar of pork & payoffs by short-sighted, corrupt US politicians may well be a re-emerging, hostile, and aggressive Russia.

    It looks like it may be more effective for US citizens who are in favor of NOT letting our manned spaceflight capabilities die from neglect to, rather than contributing money to any US politicians or organizations, donate money to the Russian spaceflight program instead.

    It seems that US politicians have so abandoned any pretense of doing the will of the people, of upholding & defending the US Constitution, and acting in the countries' best interests, that we may in future find it much more effective to donate money to our various enemies and rivals like Russia, Al Queda, and Ahmadinejad to preserve our freedom and prevent our politicians from doing things like de-funding NASA and the US military to fund their pork-filled, quid-pro-quo/payoff-laden, "bridge to nowhere" projects and social-engineering experiments designed to increase their voter-base.

    Cheers!

    Strat

    --
    Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    1. Re:Russia Saves US Manned Spaceflight? by imasu · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually the budget deficits were not manageable; they were simply pushed back.

      This is not a partisan issue at all; increases in the national debt are public record and there for anyone to see, be it on wikipedia or .gov websites.

      The Reagan administration borrowed more money than all the presidents before him, combined. Basically, it was the same idea as living "well" by maxing out credit cards and getting new ones when you fill up the old ones. Fun while it lasts, but someone has to pay for it eventually.

      So, we get to where we are today, with the interest on the national debt being more than 20 times NASA's annual budget. Granted, a lot of that came from both presidents Bush too, especially the latter. GHWB kind of inherited a problem there from Reagan.

      Anyway, remember that when you look back to the Reagan years as some kind of boon for the space industry. Short term, definitely; long term, not so much.

    2. Re:Russia Saves US Manned Spaceflight? by BlueStrat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We can resurrect the idea of extraorbital manned missions at any time...

      Respectfully, this is where you are wrong.

      The learned skills and experienced personnel will not wait around. If they aren't used, they will be lost and have to be entirely re-learned and replaced again with the attendant costs in wealth, time, and lives. The engineers with the necessary skills and experience will have to find other employment and careers, which they won't simply drop to return whenever it again becomes politically expedient to start up extra-orbital manned spaceflight again.

      A manned spaceflight program, and especially an extra-orbital manned spaceflight program, can't simply be put on 'hold' for years and have any hope of retaining viability without almost starting completely over from scratch again. This has already been proven by our inability to build a modernized Saturn V again. Heck, we can't even *find* all the old plans anymore!

      Young people choosing education and career paths won't be choosing those that provide the skills necessary if there's not a viable career waiting for them. It will require a whole new generation of people to be educated and then more years to re-gain all the experience and learned skills lost.

      We will, out of pure necessity, *have to* eventually have an extra-orbital manned spaceflight program. We can choose to do it now, or we can procrastinate and raise the inevitable eventual costs in lives and treasure, and possibly cost ourselves our species' ultimate survival.

      Not trying to be insulting, but don't be penny-wise and pound-foolish. For a tiny fraction of the treasure wasted in the "stimulus" package just passed (and assuming that only a fraction of the total package is "waste"), we could have *both* types of programs fully-funded and running in parallel, each benefiting and complimenting the other. The combined economic, technical, and societal benefits of which I guarantee will dwarf anything this stimulus package could ever hope to do.

      Cheers!

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
  7. 2 things in the way by WindBourne · · Score: 4, Interesting
    1. Prices of Oil have plummeted, though at this moment, EU is screwed and paying top dollars for Natural Gas. But EU will be working hard to get themelves unhitched from the Russian Pipeline over the next couple of years. But Oil will remain low.
    2. At the moment, it appears that NASA is going to fund RSA by the ridiculusly high price of ~50M/seat (when they were getting 20M). But more likely than not, NASA is going to fund SpaceX and try to get SpaceX to carry the bulk of the humans for less than half the price.

    Basically, RSA is already not well funded. It is not likely that they will get funding for more when Russia is losing money and their economy is crashing HARD.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  8. Meanwhile, on Mars... by bitrex · · Score: 4, Funny

    "Podmates! A new threat from the wretched third planet has presented itself!" roared K'breel, Glorious Elder Speaker of the High Council, the his gelatinous tendrils quivering with excitement. "The detestable ape-people of the Northwestern Continent, having failed pitifully in their invasion of our homeworld with their pathetic wheeled war vehicles, have now attempted to enslave the population of an old adversary to construct their monstrous interplanetary weapons of destruction. Fortunately for our cause, due to the design faults of their primitive neurological systems, and in no small part the assistance of our hidden operatives, their economies have collapsed as a result of their insatiable lust for accumulating worthless structures of planetary rock and decayed photosynthetic matter! They have turned against one another in their uncomprehending rage, bringing the hour of our ultimate victory within sight!"

    When one journalist timidly asked of K'breel to confirm the rumors that a new Great Speaker had arisen among the citizens of the Northwestern Continent, who had been prophisized to lead the ape-people to final victory in the interminable conflict, K'breel ordered his gelsacs to be pierced on the spot.