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Interview With Alan Feng of Starcraft College Class Fame
An anonymous reader writes "GosuGamers has posted a very interesting interview with Alan Feng, talking about the course he is teaching on game theory when applied to Starcraft at the University of California at Berkeley. We discussed early news of the class back in January. 'I studied what I knew: history and mathematics. With my fairly good mathematics background, I came up with all sorts of equations, tables and charts to give me the best result in every case. For instance, I once worked out using the binomial theorem that it is slightly more beneficial to send new workers to the *edge* of a mining line rather than the center. Over the course of maybe 3 minutes, this kind of movement will let you mine about 300-500 more minerals than you normally would. Ultimately, I failed at my pro-gaming bid, but, my year of study of StarCraft gave me something that I think no other SC player can offer the academic world: rigorous proof and analysis. And because of my calculations, my proofs, and most importantly, the way I can connect these calculations to real-life examples I was able to present it in a way that Haas Business School would accept as a topic for teaching.'"
I really, really hope that we'll be able to apply a lot of this stuff to SC2 since it would be a shame to have SC1 be such a perfect reflection of life.
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't be using Starcraft as a metaphor for my life. I find the real world to be a lot more like Diablo. Persistently equipped with sub-standard equipment, battling hordes of the walking dead, and never enough money.
Starcraft has incredible depth and lots of emergent gameplay. My brother bought the game nearly 10 years ago and has played it on and off to this day. He's been playing a lot on ICCUP(an unofficial server that the good players use for ranked play and to avoid hackers) since he has graduated an is jobless. He is undoubtedly better than me and wins 9 out of 10 times, which made it all the more satisfying when I 5pooled him(a rush) and left him in a hissy fit(he doesn't take losing well). I particularly like that there are so many different strategies in starcraft, you can take a very unconventional/high risk strategy, and if executed decently have a good chance of success.
I actually saw some of this a few days ago on David Sirin's Blog, and found it quite interesting. There's a fair bit of looking into the design of the game, in addition to the micromanaging for more competitive players. A worthy read for a system designer.
Stuff in video games follows predictable patterns! I wonder how they did it that way?
Anyone interested in the serious (mathematical, formal proofs, etc.) side of RTS games may find the following an interesting companion read: ORTS. The goal of this project is to develop an RTS platform that can serve as a testbed for real AI research. In other words, a supercomputer could play against you, or even help you by controlling some of your units (roll your own client).
I'm not involved with this project in any way, but it looks pretty exciting. It looks like a bunch of people who contributed to this project wound up at Bioware.
Ultimately, I failed at my pro-gaming bid, but, my year of study of StarCraft gave me something that I think no other SC player can offer the academic world: rigorous proof and analysis. And because of my calculations, my proofs, and most importantly, the way I can connect these calculations to real-life examples I was able to present it in a way that Haas Business School would accept as a topic for teaching.
Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.
well... maybe its coincidence that this happens before the release of starcraft2...
i sense snakes on a wbf
Starcraft is probably the best video game ever made when the ladder worked, hackers were not around, and win traders did not exist. In the $25,000 Blizzard world champion ships, I finished in the semi finals. :( I was world class level. I plan on bringing it with Starcraft 2. I have 3 teammates who are all world class level. When you're top notch, you sometimes run across people who are doing amazing things against you that don't fit into what everyone does. I've been fortunate to have some of them as friends. In Warcraft3, I was also extremely good as I got #1 1v1,2v2 and 3v3 in ladder at one point and first to 1500 wins. My 3v3 friends also shared the same status as having #1 in all three too at one point. The nice thing is that in 1v1, you may be a 80% player and beat the top ladder players 80% of the time. If you have 4 players in a team that are all 80%, they help each others odds even more. Like in my 3v3 team, we went 200-1-0, and the loss was due to them being bored with winning so much. I really hope Starcraft 2 is a good team game. In Starcraft 1, 2v2 or higher involves everyone 5 pooling and double teaming someone. If Starcraft 2 has something like town portal or everyone starting near each other, it could help it be a team game.
Starcraft 2 beta is just around the corner, and everyone who's done indepth analysis or gamed at a top level should be there helping them to make sure SC2 is as good as the first. I've been paying close attention to it, and I can't wait for beta. I just want to get famous in Starcraft 2 and I hope there is an emerging US pro scene so I don't have to move to South Korea. I don't mind learning a new programming language, but a real language is tough for me.
God spoke to me.
To beat the raging hordes of 12 year olds... Mathematics and a PHD.
are doomed to quote stupid quotes.
wwww.sirlin.net
Sirlin is blogging about the topics in the class! Very interesing, definitely worth checking out!
When I first attended one to watch, I looked around and thought of all the dying and dead Trekkar's and Trekkies that took such useful social "advantages" to good use. The last visit I made to Blizzard was their Fountain Valley CA Fry's Electronics Warcraft 3 product launch. I felt very, oh what's the word, "dirty" (sounds like it) for attending such a waste of time to perhaps a team of 50 Blizzard employees. They were the more depressing looking people I've ever seen in my life. After all that study of Mathematics, computer science, internships and constant haggeling fist-over-fist on who should be promoted to some *insert unrealistic development chore honor* they end-up making video games with such precise intended addiction that it reduced every buyer around them to mere shells of their former self. I've seen the true computer science conventions in a homebrew expositions, where all the participants are not whoring after an idiot's money like Blizzard employees did. I've seen homebrew expositions where everyone is involved and visit one-another's booth to discuss the merits of a product and to trade equally with one another as would a market; clearly, the open-engineering consulting is apparent, and none of this is seen in Blizzard employees or their corporate masters in Vivendi. They've become such shells of their proper selves, selling-out to WoW cameos for unrelated actors and ideas to whore more of that US 100 dollar per year crack addiction.
You played a game that dissatisfied everyone else upon your greater win, while you should have learned to do somthing useful. It's ok, I squandered my time too. I polished the family jewels and my stagtelite can get over 9 inches long and 3 inches wide. I'm the talk of every lady out there, and make Carrot Top look like Harry Knowles in that regard. I found out that both of us can't get any true success in computer games. I just want to let you know that you should look into somthing more useful, like trying to grow a clone parasitically in your slave's womb. Try it sometime. It makes the Zerg look like just another re-run cheezy War of the World's spectacle.
While Starcraft isn't mindless, clicking quickly is an important skill. It's as much of a sport as a strategy game.
On one hand you have games like Chess, Go, and Wesnoth, where you think about your move, then perform it in a manner that does not rely on lightning reflexes. On the other you have games like first-person shooters, fencing, basketball, and hockey, where reaction speed is very important.
But in the middle lies Starcraft. While claiming Starcraft is a pure click-fest is a bit of a stretch, it does rely partially on reflexes. If Starcraft is to be studied academically, sports theory is as important as game theory. Otherwise, purely turn-based strategy games are probably better for this kind of analysis.
Member of the 7 Digit UID Club
RTS like all gaming has a level of educational value.
You learn time management. The benefits and drawbacks of multi-tasking and micro-managing. The concept of diminishing returns on investment. The concept behind balancing between early investment on resources and infrastructure for a greater compound interest over time (similiar to retirement funds) and how an overinvestment in that, and lack of attention to other areas like "defense" could make it all pointless when you get overrun. To balance and not put all your eggs in one basket, all anti-personnel units are great until your enemy rolls out a tank and crushes you.
I know our city, state, and federal government lack these basic learnings.
And of course, the best rule of all, zerg early on for a quick gamble and ending the game one way or another.
Just look here!
HEALTH POT
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
Starcraft is probably the best video game ever made
.. because I am good at it.
Professional level Starcraft might favor players at the high end of the actions per minute scale. But I find that among casual players clicking is much less important than you think. I know because I'm successful in Starcraft but have very unimpressive twitch reflexes.
The more important abilities are knowing how to grow an economy, scouting an opponent, knowing when to be defensive and when to be offensive, and choosing the right unit for the job. Click speed is crucial only when you're fighting an evenly matched battle and a few extra spells can turn the tide. But a smart player chooses his battles and never engages on even terms unless clicking is his forte.
I believe the most critical resource in Starcraft is attention -- attention to your units, attention to your strategy, attention to your opponent, and attention to your teammates. The ability the absorb and process that information quickly will win you games. Depleting and evading your opponent's attention through distraction and surprise will win you more.
I would love to take that class. I could see all that stuff when I was playing starcraft, but I never took the time to quantify it. I really wish I would have
Huh? Will somebody explain to me why it is more efficient to increase the length of a mining circuit, all other things held equal? Or what additional assumptions are required to make the binomial theorem applicable to this problem?
Evidently, the key to understanding recursion is to begin by understanding recursion. The rest is easy.