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Gravitational Waves May Have Been Detected In 1987
KentuckyFC writes "In 1987, a physicist called Joe Weber claimed to have detected gravitational waves at the same time that other scientists spotted a supernova called SN1987A. His claims were largely ignored because of calculations showing that gravitational waves could not be strong enough to be picked up by Weber's equipment, a set of giant aluminium cylinders designed to vibrate as the waves passed by. But these calculations were based on first order effects in the way spacetime can be distorted. Now a new analysis shows that second order effects can enhance gravitational waves by four orders of magnitude, but only when certain asymmetries are present. It turns out that SN1987A possesses just the right kind of asymmetries to make this enhancement possible because the supernova wasn't entirely spherical. Which means that Weber, who died in 2000, may have been the first to see gravitational waves after all."
No, it cannot. See Nobelprize FAQ
No, I am afraid you are not right. It specifically says that you cannot be awarded the prize posthumously... Effective from 1974, the prize may only go to a deceased person to whom it was already awarded (usually in October) but who had died before he/she could receive the Prize on December 10.
No Nobel Peace Prize was awarded in 1948 because, "there was no suitable living candidate". It's generally believed that Mahatma Gandhi would have got it if he had not been assassinated on January 30, 1948.
Please mod my post down. It is not informative. It is actually wrong as pointed out by others.
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
How much does it have to suck to die, with your observations being discredited, and your claims laughed at? Then a decade later, the scientific community goes "oops, you were right".
This guy had a carrier shot out from under him. I don't think the naysaying of a bunch of geek theorists bothered him much.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
This guy had a carrier shot out from under him.
For those wondering, he was a crew member of the USS Lexington, which was lost at the Battle of the Coral Sea.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
They're showing it in two dimensions, when it's actually happening in four. Try and think about that, but be careful. Your head might explode.
The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination
- Douglas Adams
Then a decade later, the scientific community goes "oops, you were right".
Hm. But this raises an interesting question. Was he actually right?
Let's assume for the moment that TFA is correct, that higher-order terms can enhance gravity waves and that this is the case for SN1987A. So Weber's measurements in 1987 contained a valid signature of a gravity wave.
In a sense, then, he did detect gravity waves. And so he was right in saying "I detected gravity waves". However, he may have been right for the wrong reasons. Science works by interpreting data, and convincing others that your interpretation is correct. Weber was not able to do so. He was not able to convince others because he couldn't provide a way to connect the magnitude of the signal in his measurements to the available theory.
Now, if he had done what the present scientists have done, and demonstrate that the higher-order terms make gravity waves detectable in his apparatus, then he might have been able to convince his colleagues. Then he would really have been right (and for the right reasons). But he didn't (as far as I can tell). He incorrectly said "gravity waves, as described by these theories/equations, have been measured on my instrument"... which is wrong.
Some of you may think I'm just splitting hairs or something. But it's important because in science being right is not about randomly guessing the right answer... it's about providing a robust argument based on repeatable measurements. In science, happening upon the right answer using the wrong logic isn't really considered a good thing. As an extreme analogy, imagine that I am trying to predict when the next volcanic eruption will be, and I come up with a complicated theory based on tides. Then I correctly predict an eruption. A few years later some smarter guys come along and create a really great theory that predicts volcanic eruptions, and show that it is really based on magma flow... and that I was just lucky to have predicted the eruption. Was I "right" in my prediction?
That depends on whether there's any causal link between the tide and magma flow. (There is)
After all, I am strangely colored.
Actually, his real name was not Joe Weber. From wiki:
'His name was "Yonah" until he entered grammar school. He had no birth certificate, and his father had taken the last name of "Weber" '
It's also interesting to note that Joe Weber was not a second rate physicist, having studied at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton with no less a luminary than John Wheeler, who himself published with Einstein.
In 1987, a physicist called Joe Weber...
So, what was his real name?
In your race to show your superiority, you neglected to do a little background reading on the subject.
"Weber was the youngest of four children born in Paterson, New Jersey, to Yiddish-speaking immigrant parents. His name was 'Yonah' until he entered grammar school. He had no birth certificate, and his father had taken the last name of 'Weber' to match an available passport in order to emigrate to the US. Thus, Joe Weber had little proof of either his family or his given name..." (from the link provided in the Slashdot summary)
So yes, he was called Joe Weber.
The ship that bore the name Lexington was CV-2 and was sunk at Coral Sea. The Lexington lives, however, when CV-16 was rechristened Lexington. The Lex is moored in Corpus Christi, TX.
It's only a very crude analogy.
That's a good point, and it should be elaborated as the proper response
to cyberchondriac.
cyberchondriac identifies the grid-bent-by-balls as "the current popular
gravity model". It is in fact a popular model, which I remember from
watching PBS even as far back as the 1970s. The good thing about this
model is that it allows one to visualize how a mass both distorts space
and moves in response to the distortion caused by another object. But
its goodness as a model of gravity ends there, in part due to
cyberchondriac's astute observation that it makes use of gravity to
explain gravity. Still, the model is not bad because it uses one aspect
of gravity (that it is nearly uniform near the surface of the Earth) to
explain a *different* aspect of gravity (that distortions caused by
multiple objects can interfere with each other and lead to motion).
In reality, it's both space *and* time that are being
distorted.
Not quite. In reality, the best model that we have is general
relativity, according to which both space and time are being distorted.
But this is not to say that space and time are being distorted in
reality, because we will never know for sure what's going on in reality.
That is, a scientific theory (like general relativity) can never be
proved true, though it can be proved false. Who knows? General
relativity might be ruled out by some future experiments and replaced
with a fundamentally different view of gravity.
You should look up "sense of humor" on Wikipedia while you're busy busting people's balls.
Since I work in gravitational wave physics, I read this article with great interest when I saw it. I'm afraid, the arguments are far from compelling. Some of the many problems:
1) The proposal for the calculation of the energy content of the gravitational wave is speculative at best. There is no agreed upon quantity for the energy of spacetime curvature, as the author himself points out.
2) The only calculation of the claimed non-linear enhancement seems to be in a paper which is cited by title and author only - there is no way to find and read the paper which this calculation was supposed to be in.
3) There seems to be some confusion between cylindrical gravitational waves and cylindrical gravitational wave sources. His method using approximate lie symmetries would correspond to the symmetry of the spacetime - ie the matter. I don't believe there is any way to produce cylindrical (or spherical) gravitational waves since you need a time-varying mass quadrupole to create them. Axisymmetric sources do not produce such waves. In short, there are exact (non-linear) solutions to the Einstein equations with no sources that have a gravitational wave-like nature, but they are not the solutions you get for (linear) gravitational waves from sources, and it is misleading to confuse them.
4) His supposition that 10% asphericity of the source is somehow related to a gravitational wave which is 90% spherical and 10% cylindrical is just bizarre. The gravitational waves from a rotating ellipsoid which has a 0.1 asphericity (assuming it is rotating about one of it's minor axes, since if it was rotating about the major axis it would be axisymmetric and give of no gravitational waves) is not really like an exact spherical wave or an exact cylindrical wave solution.
So, all told, this is still very early and very speculative. The safe money at this point is still that Weber (who had other irreproducable "detections") did not see a gravitational wave. While the non-linear nature of gravity would in principle allow for some sort of self-amplification, there has been to my knowledge no paper that claims to show this kind of amplification by four orders of magnitude available to view, let alone verified by other calculations or observations. Until something like that is available, this is at best speculation and hype, not science.
I don't believe you are understanding what the no hair theorem really says.
The no hair theorem only refers to parameters of the blackhole that are independent of the frame of reference. A gravitational wave generated by a accelerating mass isn't independent from the frame of reference. Different frames will view it differently.
Also, the poster who said the gravitational wave says something about what is going on inside the black hole is incorrect I believe. The gravitational wave says something about the black hole's velocity and acceleration through space-time because it is that acceleration which produces the waves. The wave says nothing about what may or may not be occurring on the inside.
In a minute there is time For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse. -T.S. Eliot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graviton
"In physics, the graviton is a hypothetical elementary particle that mediates the force of gravity in the framework of quantum field theory. "
In laymans talk - Gravity Particles.