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Mac Tax, Dell Tax, HP Tax
Harry writes "Microsoft's new Windows ad, with shopper Lauren buying a cheap 17-inch HP laptop instead of a $2,800 MacBook Pro, has unleashed the whole 'Are Macs Expensive?' debate again. I'm diving in with a pretty exhaustive comparison of the MacBook Pro against machines from Dell, HP, Lenovo, and Sony that were as comparably configured as I could manage. The conclusion: High-end laptops tend to carry high-end prices, whether their operating system hails from Cupertino or Redmond. And the MacBook Pro wasn't the priciest of the systems I compared." We looked at this question, not in as much depth, a couple of years back.
Ever priced a stick or two of RAM from Apple?
I know it doesn't affects us geeks, but it'll give Grandma a heart attack.
The Apple tax is the lack of variety.
It isn't that the expensive laptops aren't worth it.
It's that there is no low cost Macs.
pretty exhaustive comparison
I don't think it was exhaustive at all. What I feel like I'm buying when I buy a laptop is more than what this article implies. I am buying into a brick of hardware where if one piece fails or becomes obsolete, it might as well be the whole brick. Which is why it surprises me that talk of hard drives (though they are the easiest component to replace) doesn't even list the manufacturer of the drive! How about a Mean Time to Failure (MTTF) of each of the products used? How about even just telling me that all the USB ports are 2.0 (I mean, I'm assuming that but who knows)? And what about the support that comes with each laptop as far as # of updates (BIOS/firmware) issued for the mainboard and all devices?
High-end laptops tend to carry high-end prices, whether their operating system hails from Cupertino or Redmond.
Actually I advise people that high end Macs are a tiny bit more expensive than high end other laptops while low end Macs are much more expensive (percentage wise) to low end Dells or HPs. And I think that's better information (and I thought I read that in the article). You usually get what you pay for and I wish the article had done a more thorough analysis of the laptops component by component.
My work here is dung.
The question isn't "what does a comparably specced machine cost". It's "what does a machine that does what I need cost". I can get a $500-700 PC Laptop that will work great for most of my use. I can't touch that with a Mac.
The way most of these comparisons work is that they take the feature set of the most expensive laptop and start there as a base point, or start at the most feature rich, like this review did. I've seen the commercial in question and the girl/actress/whatever had two requirements: a 17 inch screen and a sub thousand dollar price. Say what you will about that but that seems like a pretty common way to start shopping. Sure, the Macbook Pro is $2800 (?!) but I'm sure it has a ton of stuff she's simply not interested or aware of. The general public likes cheap computers, and I personally think it's a pretty effective ad.
It would be nice if they could have had a longer version where she's in the Apple store and finds her 17" laptop but not at the price she wants.
Effective ad for me, but it's personally not going to influence any of my purchases. I buy most of my stuff off Craigslist (17 inchers for under $100? yum - that's what she said).
Reviewing just the first hour of video games.
To me on the the biggest issues with Apple is that they don't really offer a full range of configurations. So if for instance somebody wants a mid-range tower they are out of luck. Or a consumer notebook with a big screen. What they do make I think is competitive in those markets. But an expanded lineup would really help.
Giving the Apple a point for "construction" seems a little dubious to me. There's no doubt that the fancy aluminum shell on the Mac is much sturdier than my all plastic Dell from work, but my Dell laptop seems to stand up just fine to the rigors I put it through. If the Mac were made of aircraft grade aluminum, would it be even better? Not really.
Giving a "point" to Apple for Firewire seems equally dubious. Most consumers who are choosing between a PC laptop and a Mac likely don't know what FireWire is, and the other laptops all HAVE a FireWire port, just a slower one. FireWire 800 is a "feature" that very few people need.
The point to Apple for "sound" is perhaps most dubious of all, since the Sony has some slick specs in this department as well.
Methinks the TFA is slightly biased.
News at 11.
Whether you want to say Apple doesn't make notebooks most people can afford or they're notebooks are too expensive in general, it's essentially a wash.
Also, the entire basis for this comparison is wrong... as the ad shows, it has nothing to do with the "exact" features. Consumers look for a couple key features and operate "within a market." If you want the real take-away here it's that Apple either a) doesn't understand the market they're targeting with the 13" macbook or b) is purposely trying to drive people to the more expensive machine. Either way, they don't have a product that meets what I think you can safely say is the "vast majority" of US consumers.
Personally I just hate the "I know what's good for you" Apple mantra. I be surprised if more /.ers wouldn't agree given the fact that Apple is essentially the antithesis of open source.
-rt
So is it an ad for Windows or Silverlight?
What is the point of putting out an ad to sell a product if you limit your market to those who are already using your product? Are they simply trying to stop the bleeding of market share?
Yeah, I know, there are ways to view the ad without buying Windows, no thanks.
So you don't want to use this video codec because its made by microsoft? I fail to see how it is any different than flash, infact I thought it was flash! Especially when you then go and say a flash file is fine, thus destroying your 'holier than thou' proprietary video codec argument. I think you need to look up the meaning of the phrase "i'm not picky".
As a potential lottery winner, I totally support tax cuts for the wealthy
Let's say the MacBook CAN justify its $2800 pricetag (i.e., it's not overpriced hardware, it's just good/expensive hardware and a lot of it). Ok, so the question is, is a $2800 laptop necessary?
That's a good question that everyone should ask, but it has nothing to do with a Mac Tax. It's a "high-end computer tax." If Apple is making a business of only selling high-end computers, that's the market they've chosen, nothing wrong with that. Now if you want to say that macs are overpriced, you need to compare equivalently specs, you can't say, "look, the other company sells a less powerful laptop for cheaper." Of course they do, if their less powerful laptop was more expensive than a high-end computer, everyone would buy high-end computers!
I also don't really understand why there's all this hate against people who choose to buy high-end computers. It's true that they're not getting the most bang for the buck, but if it weren't for those buyers financing the high performance parts, the mid-range computers wouldn't advance as quickly. Basically, the reason you can get a very fast machine for cheaper today is precisely because of those people who buy the expensive high-end parts. It's the same concept Tesla Motors is trying to leverage. They can't build an affordable electric car, so they build a car for the rich. Those buyers fund the development of the technology and eventually they'll be able to build an affordable electric car.
If they want them, and can afford them, who are you to tell you they're wrong? Especially when you're indirectly benefiting from their choice.
Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.
Dells, HPs, Lenovos..... they all go on sale for significant discounts.
Do Macs? Not from my experience.
I can buy a souped up T series lenovo laptop for probably around half the price of an equivalent macbook (in the 1250-1500 range vs. 2500-3000 range for the macbook pro.
And one can get features in the T series that apple just doesn't think there's any market for (such as the old T42p I'm currently typing on that had a 15" 4x3 lcd w/ 1600x1200). Try to find any mac that has anything approaching that pixel density.
and I can admit that PCs are WAY cheaper. The issue is that the pricing of Macs is completely devoid of choice. Don't need a built-in, high-res webcam? Too bad! Don't need the latest processor? We know better than you!
If you build a PC laptop like you build a Mac laptop, you may get similar prices in the end. The problem is that you can't build a Mac laptop like you *would* build a PC laptop. One good example is that when choosing a processor, often times the price of the processor will go up exponentially in relation to performance improvements. I have absolutely no need for the utmost in processor performance (everything I do is going to depend more on RAM). However, when buying my new MacBook Pro, I had to get a hefty processor with it. For almost all users (and most users aren't /. readers), processor speed isn't going to matter much. Heck, I make my living on my computer and it doesn't matter much.
It's also that there are good deals and bad deals from every PC company. So, if you cherry pick the outrageously marked up PCs against the Macs, the Macs look good. But you can also find very good PCs that are half the price.
The fact is that for under $700 I can get a Dell Vostro 1510 with the same resolution display, more RAM, but with an Intel Core 2 Duo at 1.8GHz rather than 2.4GHz. Part of the problem is that the latest processors cost a lot more for very little gains - and Apple only offers me the latest, high-margin product. Upgrading the Dell to 2Ghz bumps the price up $125 (for a measly 10% gain in clock speed). That's an about 20% increase in the WHOLE COMPUTER'S PRICE for a 10% gain - possibly an increase of 50% in the processor cost for a 10% boost.
I'm not trying to say that Apple products aren't worth the cost - since I shelled out $2K for one, I clearly think they are. But let's not get into a stupid "Apples are just as cheap" rhetoric match. That's like saying, "Dell costs twice as much if you buy 3 months groceries as part of the purchase". You can rig anything if people are passionate enough - and this is a situation that makes people passionate.
Apple likes to have their high margins. You have to pay up to buy Apple computers. Don't try to justify it as the same price. They aren't. I think they're worth the money, but you need to be able to objectively evaluate situations. Most people can't - they bend data to justify what they wish were true. Apples are wonderful. They aren't cheap.
Who wants a video? I don't have time to watch a video. Give me text I can skim.
For a while, Apple had the best of the best in laptop. Now...I don't think so so much. Particularly the MacBook Pro line has had issues that should never have existed.
Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
These Apple vs. Dell competitions never account for the constant sales that Dell has on their products. They keep the list price relatively high so their salespeople can give "favorable pricing" to their corporate clients. Very frequently, though, Dell issues coupons good for huge discounts. You can get 10-25% off a new Dell laptop if you wait a few weeks. Apple hardly ever has huge sales.
Most rational consumers would wait a bit to save a few hundred dollars. I would love to see a comparison that took these Dell discounts into account.
A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
Dells, HPs, Lenovos..... they all go on sale for significant discounts.
Do Macs? Not from my experience.
I can buy a souped up T series lenovo laptop for probably around half the price of an equivalent macbook (in the 1250-1500 range vs. 2500-3000 range for the macbook pro.
And one can get features in the T series that apple just doesn't think there's any market for (such as the old T42p I'm currently typing on that had a 15" 4x3 lcd w/ 1600x1200). Try to find any mac that has anything approaching that pixel density.
Buying a mac is like shopping at Macy's and always having to pay their non sale prices. Buying a Dell, HP.... Is like shopping at macy's and knowing that they always have sales and that the non sale price is mostly a joke.
> neither is reliability, nor support.
Oh puleeeze... A Mac is "just another PC" anymore. Cheap crappy PC components are
just as cheap and crappy regardless of what sort of prissy logo is on the outside
of the machine.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
To go along with the previous posts. I was shopping a year ago for a laptop, and got a Dell that had the exact same specs as the current top of the line MBP but the dell had better graphics and a larger hdd, all for half the price of the MBP. Apple never offers discounts while all the other manufacturers do. These comparisons are horrible because they assume the shopper is a retard and wont be willing to wait a few weeks for a 200-800$ off coupon to pop up.
The problem with this canard, or at least misconception, is that it takes the notion "I would buy this kind of thing if Apple offered it" (which may or may not be true) and assumes that, therefore, it would be a good business move for Apple to offer that configuration.
In the mid 90s, Apple had so many product lines and options that you couldn't keep track of them: Classics, Performas, Quadras, whatever. There were Apple-manufactured machines that had two processors for dual-booting, not to mention several brands of clones. (This is another thing that many people still say: "if only Apple would get their head out of their asses and license their OS to other manufacturers, they would increase their market share, blah blah blah...") At that time, it looked like Apple wasn't long for this world.
After Jobs came back in 1996 (1997? whatever.), the company slowly reined in the product lines and started to concentrate on making a few identifiable, distinct products, with a limited number of options for each. Apple is now a quite successful company, and, while their non-computer products are a large part of this, the company has managed to continue to hang on to, and even expand, its corner of the computer and OS market, a market that is surely stacked against it. Not only that, Apple has become a trendsetter in this market.
You can bet that there are some pretty savvy financial analysts at Apple who have probably looked at this a lot more closely than you have, and, if they really thought demand was high enough for a mid-range tower, they would make one. I would bet that the average computer user (not the average Slashdot reader, which is something else) never expands their PC past the basic configuration that they bought it with during its lifespan, and, furthermore, doesn't need anything more powerful than what comes with a Mac Mini. The population of customers who need more than a Mac Mini, but less than a Mac Pro (like you) is real, but too small to be profitable for Apple. Apple's success is not based on a shotgun approach but on carefully maximizing the profitability of a small number of product lines.
I'm just sayin'.
It's a question of mapping: the goal isn't to take an APPLE to start with then compare it to the price of a similar PC; instead, it's to take a PC you want, and asking if there EVEN IS a similar Mac -- in a lot of cases, there just won't be.
That's a damned good point, and the main reason that I'm typing this reply on a [somewhere between eight years, or one month old - depending on how one measures it] custom box. By most measures, it would be described as mid-range, and I'd love to own a mid-range mac. Except, not stuffed into the back on my monitor, because it's nice to be able to improved the video card every-so-often. Or disconnect the 'display size' from from other performance metrics. That mid-range mac has been missing-in-action for a long, long time, and I don't get it...
Give a man a fire, and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)
To me one of the the biggest issues with Mercedes is that they don't really offer a full range of vehicles. So if for instance somebody wants a pickup truck they are out of luck. Or a dirt bike. What they do make I think is competitive in those markets. But an expanded lineup would really help.
The GGP and the GP had some very interesting points. For what I use a laptop for, a MacBook Pro is just overkill. It's too much machine and there's no reason to spend the money for it. The other laptops makers offer lower end models that are the right fit for me. If Apple did the same, I would consider them, but they don't.
I see. What you're saying is that a Mercedes isn't too much machine for your daily commute to work, and that's why you bought one.
Your idea "picking on the fanboi" was an epic fail, dude. You just reinforced his point. If what you need is a truck or a dirt bike, you shouldn't be looking to buy a Mercedes. Similarly, if what you need can be had in a cheaper laptop, don't buy an Apple. If, on the other hand, you want the extra power because you need it / want it / must compensate for your small dick, you can buy the Apple, the Mercedes, the high-end Sony laptop, or the Aston Martin.
The point of the article and of the poster you were responding to was not that everyone should buy an Apple. It's that spec for spec, the Apple is competitively priced. If you don't need those specs, then you're absolutely right, you shouldn't be buying that computer, be it an Apple or a Sony, or a Dell, or an HP.
There is no "apple tax" there are only expensive high-end computers of all brands. And if you want and can afford them, there's nothing wrong with that. They're subsidizing the development of faster components that will eventually make it down to the affordable, more bang for the buck range you're interest in. So you should thank those people.
Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.
You seem to have already figured this out, so perhaps you're being rhetorical, but the heirarchy goes like this:
1. Open Format
...
2. Closed But Free Format
3. Closed But Expensive Format
99. Microsoft's Closed Format
Microsoft is worse than other proprietary formats because it has the means (and lack of morals) to crush an ecosystem of competitive products with its own crappy bundled product, which then gets even crappier due to lack of competition.
The OP was just asking for any format besides the Very Worst Format Possible, so yes, that isn't particularly picky.
One brand, and a premium one at that, is not well served by having hundreds of different computer models. Sure, Apple could make a cheaper laptop with a 17" screen and they could make a netbook and a mid range tower and all those other things. But now they have the over head of twice as many computers and configurations. Twice the overhead of manufacturing twice the overhead of warehousing cases and other parts that are specific to a given model. (ok, maybe not twice as much, but the overhead is non trivial)
As a result, they might sell a few more computers, but not twice as many. The proper tactic from an economic point of view is to try to make as few models as possible while still covering the needs of as large a user base as possible. This keeps cost down and margins up while still maintaining brisk sales.
Now one could argue that the computers that apple makes aren't the best choices for the market, but I dont know that the data really backs you up. The few extra mid range towers they might sell doesn't really make up for the cost of adding a whole new line when for the vast majority of consumers, an iMac or mac mini is quite sufficient and professionals almost always buy a top of the line machine anyway.
Sometimes I think that we here on slashdot forget that there is a room full of economists, market analysts and manufacturing experts at apple that help shape the nature of the mac line. If a mid range tower was going to help apples bottom line significantly, then they would be making one.
"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson
Christ, when is this nonsense going to end? Yes, Macs are expensive. Perhaps unreasonably so. But that is not an honest comparison.
This crowd has gotten so upset with gigabytes and clock speeds that we've forgotten the most literal definition of hardware. So lets glance at some actual hardware specs:
Dell: 10.6 pounds, 2 inches thick.
Mac: 6.6 pounds, 1 inch thick (also noticeable less deep and wide for the same screen size).
It's not the glowing apple you are paying for, it's the fact that the Mac is literally HALF the size.
Other important considerations; the Apple has an 8 hour battery life and an extended-longevity battery, the Dell has a 1.5 battery life. The Apple also has OSX, backlit keyboard, vastly superior fit and finish, and a range of other benefits.
Again, expensive? Yes. Too expensive (at least for the general consumer)? Certainly not unlikely.
But the Apple is half the weight, half the thickness, 4x the battery life, and vastly superior in build quality and user experience. These are the things that are important in a notebook computer. You might as well compare a beige tower to the Apple in this instance. You're right - it's not even a close call.
If you actually argued that I'd say you're a bit naive. Looks matter to everything where people decided that they do. For most things, an object is quite often (almost always)) not merely about it's function, unless you never see it (I don't think many people care about how their home water heater looks, but you can bet they care about how their stove looks).
To suggest that this is magically not important to most people because you don't deem it to be so personally is just ridiculous.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
Truthfully, I have to question just how important the "expandability" really is for most people anyway?
There was a time when this was a *huge* deal, but as technology has advanced, I've watched a lot more consolidation.
EG. Back in the days of my Intel 486 motherboard, even the serial and parallel ports were on cards, and I had such options as upgrading a basic 8-bit or 16-bit ISA I/O card with a more capable VESA local-bus version. Now, every PC motherboard you can find has all the ports built right onto it, permanently.
Same goes for sound cards. Remember when *everybody* who was remotely into gaming went out and bought the latest Soundblaster offering (or maybe a "Gravis Ultrasound" or something)? Now, you get full Dolby surround capable sound and often, even optical outputs right on the motherboards.
On the Mac side, I even remember some people arguing they "needed" to go with a PowerMac G5 tower or Mac Pro tower vs. an iMac, because those expansion slots were so critical. Yet, show me how often you see a Mac tower with expansion cards installed in it these days? At least in the days of the G4 towers, you often had an Adaptec SCSI board in there for somebody's scanner, or maybe a card that added more USB ports.
And look at the Windows users who brag about their hardware's superiority, all because they can "upgrade with faster CPUs and video cards". Nice, in theory, but by the time they're ready for that new video or CPU? Most likely, the pin architecture has changed again, rendering the socket they've got unsuitable for that new processor ... or maybe their power supply can't put out the wattage required for that new video board, or ?? You quickly realize it makes more sense to sell the whole machine and start over with a whole new one.
So Apple may just be doing this the sensible way, anyway.
Just buy whatever system you want without feeling the need to justify it. Even if macs are more expensive (which they may or may not be) if you can afford it who gives a shit?
This is a joke. I am joking. Joke joke joke.
You're ignoring many things. First, upgrading the RAM is still relevant and easy to do on a PC. My work computer was choking with the 512 MB it shipped with trying to view PDFs, edit PowerPoints and have other applications open at the same time. Simple, I spent $30 on RAM and doubled it to 1 gig. There is absolutely no reason for me to have bought a new desktop, this one has the processing power necessary, and now the RAM to multitask with today's more memory heavy programs.
What about a new hard drive? HD's keep getting cheaper, maybe I want to upgrade to 500 gigs from an old 60 gig? Maybe I want to add another one for internal backup, or maybe my boss decided a RAID setup would provide better protection against HD failure and the subsequent data loss?
At home I can get by just adding RAM and replacing the video card every few years. Sometimes you want to add another drive in the bay, maybe something proprietary or card specific, maybe you want to take your DVD read and CD RW to a DVD-RW. Pretending there's not a lot of circumstances in which upgrading is the best option is foolish, and this applies both in the office and at home.
I don't own any Macs, but as the subject says, all macs can upgrade ram,and almost all macs have easy hard drive upgrades. As for extra hard drives,USB external drives work great for most people
The only thing at all correct in your post is your comment about upgrading the video card...
To be honest, I don't quite get your point. What is the point in selling a year old computer? It sounds like a waste of money and time buying a new one. Secondly, 5 or 10 year old computer (mac or a "pc") is pretty much worthless. It doesn't really matter if you get 50 or 80 for them. I just never understood people who would gladly pay say 20% more on a new $product1 and so they can sell it 5+ years later for 10% more than the compared $product2. The problem is that both products are worth just a fraction of their price as new (as explained earlier).
I'm not talking here about features, I'm just talking about your argument about the resell value. I just don't quite get the logic with the fast depreciating products.
Trolls are like broken clocks. They show the truth two times a day. The rest of the day they talk nonsense.
http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=442 Basic premise, for the past 5 years Microsoft has 81 percent margins ($189,878 billion) versus Apple's 32% percent ($31 billion). Microsoft tax has been brilliantly spent on Zune (trounced by Apple), Windows search (trounced by Google), and Vista (trounced by XP). I don't agree with the further discussion about antivirus as I feel all computer users should have some form of antivirus and there are free solutions for Macs, PC's, and Linux.
I've been thinking about this ad the last few days. First of all, it was essentially scripted. There is absolutely no point in going to the Apple Store first when one is looking for a 17" $1000 or below laptop. She could have checked the Apple website; shoot, she could have looked at the Apple display in the Best Buy. She could have checked craigslist or ebay for a used one, though used Apples aren't necessarily cheap either.
When Microsoft suggests that it is the OS of budget computing, well, that's a tad backhanded and self-inflicted, too. Argue as you will over the merits of Windows, there is no denying that no matter what level of system you build, you can save money by putting Linux on it. Microsoft skates here because they keep the sales channels in line and there's no hardware manufacturer who has really thrown in their lot with Linux and created a user experience that was clearly differentiated from the Windows experience the way Apple did with MacOS first and NeXT/BSD later. If someone did, that would be the winner on power and value for low cost.
It also occurs to me that if every manufacturer's Windows pc was less expensive than the Apple in its class, then wouldn't that suggest there was not an Apple tax, but a Windows discount? The more I thought about it, the more I think we may state a law. As long as Microsoft allows multiple manufacturers to assemble Windows pc, there will always be at least one brand and model that is cheaper than the Apple in its class, otherwise the price-sensitive will choose a Mac.
Think of it this way, if Microsoft could get $500 for its logo, they'd do it. Any company would. You'd do it. You'd be nuts not too. Small margins, high volumes is Plan C.