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US Electricity Grid Reportedly Penetrated By Spies

phantomfive worries about a report in the Wall Street Journal ("Makes me want to move to the country and dig a well") that in recent years a number of cyber attacks against US infrastructure have been launched over the Internet: "Cyberspies have penetrated the US electrical grid and left behind software programs that could be used to disrupt the system, according to current and former national-security officials. The spies came from China, Russia, and other countries, these officials said, and were believed to be on a mission to navigate the US electrical system and its controls. The intruders haven't sought to damage the power grid or other key infrastructure, but officials warned they could try during a crisis or war."

76 of 328 comments (clear)

  1. Remember, folks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...you must live in perpetual fear. Whenever you're starting to focus on the reality of life, new fear WILL be injected into it to distract you. This is how the natural order sustains itself.

    1. Re:Remember, folks... by oodaloop · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Uh, does that mean that there aren't real dangers for which we need to be prepared? Might want to check your bathwater for babies before tossing it out.

      --
      Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
    2. Re:Remember, folks... by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Are there real threats? Yes, of course there are. But when enough scaremongering is mixed into them, you get the reaction that the OP AC shows: Cry wolf once too often and people will ignore you.

      Also, there are a few things that I'd consider a lot more dangerous and worrysome that you don't hear about at all. Intentionally or not, your decision.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Remember, folks... by Thanshin · · Score: 4, Funny

      Whenever you're starting to focus on the reality of life, new fear WILL be injected into it to distract you.

      Oh god! I'm so afraid of the fear injecting big brother.

    4. Re:Remember, folks... by oodaloop · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How is a former official talking about a real threat scare-mongering? Should he have just kept quiet instead?

      --
      Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
    5. Re:Remember, folks... by afxgrin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not to mention the creation of an alien enemy. Obviously - OBVIOUSLY - the IP addresses come from Russia and China - and in no way could a proxy be used from those countries - by an American. No way that could ever happen.

      Obviously the spies are Russian or Chinese, because Americans would have no reason to hack into their own government's systems.

    6. Re:Remember, folks... by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There are many real threats (assuming this one is). Why do we get to hear about this one now? Is it coincidence that this surfaces at the 'right' time when security money is being redistributed?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    7. Re:Remember, folks... by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Probably not coincidence, but that doesn't mean it's sinister or improper. If you knew of a significant threat that wasn't being addressed, and it was that time when the People In Charge were working out where to spend money (i.e. are actively seeking information and advice on the most effective use of their funds), wouldn't that seem like an ideal time to try to raise awareness of it?

      Or would you prefer to wait until there's no money to spend and nobody currently in a position to do anything about it before announcing it?

      Not saying it isn't all another scam to get free money, but just because it might be doesn't mean it is.

    8. Re:Remember, folks... by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I think the larger, basic question is:

      What the hell are systems like the electric grid doing hooked in any fashion to the publicly accessible internet?? These should be on their own network, separate and apart from anything that touches the public wan.

      Seems like that would have been a no brainer?!?!

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    9. Re:Remember, folks... by kbielefe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Secretary Gates just announced that he is tripling the number of "cyber experts" trained per year. Since he was really picky about which programs actually got increases in funding among several cuts, I'm pretty sure I wasn't the only one who wondered why he felt cyberwarfare to be deserving, when we haven't heard much about it in the news. Apparently someone in the media wondered the same thing and set out to answer that question.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank.
    10. Re:Remember, folks... by HangingChad · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In this case the parent is quite accurate. The truth is our electrical grid security has been dismal for decades. Hackers infiltrating control systems is only the latest discovery. If a foreign government wanted to sabotage our electrical grid it would be shockingly easy to do. 5 to 10 people working together with a few resources could black out the entire west coast for weeks if not months.

      Okay, so now they can disrupt control systems from the comfort of their data center. Whoopy do. Yes, fix the data security, but spend the money to make the needed improvements to physical security and redundant infrastructure. Our grid is routinely stretched to the breaking point. There's very little extra capacity. I think of people realized how vulnerable our electrical grid really is, they'd be terrified. The fact electricity is so reliable we take it for granted is testimony to the quality of the people working in the field.

      Imagine living in L.A. or San Francisco with no electricity for a week.

      --
      That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
    11. Re:Remember, folks... by Chabil+Ha' · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not necessarily. One of the cornerstones of Marxism (gasp!, not in US!) is the concept of perpetual revolution. If there is always a target, always a crusade against the badies, the government can more easily legitimatize and perpetuate bad policy (ie domestic wiretapping). This is always advertised as being for the good (but always at the expense) of the whole of the people. The vain promise, the mirage on the horizon, is a safer, happier people. The world will be secure from the bad guys!

      --
      We're all hypocrites. We all have hidden parts, it's the contrast between them that make us more a hypocrite than others
    12. Re:Remember, folks... by furby076 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You know, it's not fear mongering or paranoia if someone *IS* actually trying to get you. You don't think there are elements in Russia, China, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, North Korea and some other choice countries who are attempting to get us? You don't think any of them are in gov't and planning just in case? You don't think someone in China says "hmm we might fight America one day so lets hedge our bets. If we don't fight we don't activate the code, if we do fight BAM we got em".

      So your statement should be modded more /. then /insightful

      --

      I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
    13. Re:Remember, folks... by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Mod parent up plse. He refers correctly to the type of brainwashing the way the Bush administration has pursuid the last 8 years. Off course there are still a number of elements present that continue this style up to today.

      You mean like the Obama elements?

      • "Profound economic emergency"
      • "[could] turn a crisis into an irreversible catastrophe"
      • "paralysis" and "disaster"
      • "the federal government is the only entity left with the resources to jolt our economy back to life."
      • "...but I can tell you with complete confidence that a failure to act will only deepen this crisis...."
      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    14. Re:Remember, folks... by ArcherB · · Score: 2

      I guess I, too, have heard the cry about wolves at least once too often...

      I agree. I too tire of hearing of a different threat every single day. However, if you ignore one of them, and it turns out to be a real threat, thousands or even millions could die and whoever is in charge gets beaten over the head with it for all of history for not taking action.

      Prime example. The President receives a Daily Briefing highlighting security issues. When I say, "Daily", I mean every single day, mentioning various security threats... EVERY DAY! Now, if you let one of them get by without acting, like say one that says, "Terrorists planning to fly planes into buildings", and something comes of it, you will be hounded forever as someone who failed to act. People will say that the blood of thousands is on YOUR hands.

      So, please, try to have some understand as to why these things are taken seriously. I know it's hard, but don't bitch about a President who failed to act and then complain when he does.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    15. Re:Remember, folks... by wytcld · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you have segregated networks, all the spy needs to do is find a single place to tap into your "secure" one, and you're toast. You thought it was secure, so you didn't lock it down properly. And somebody, somewhere left a way in, an unguarded terminal, or cheated and put a cross-connect to the public net for his own convenience, thinking it would never be found.

      If it's all on the public net, but thoroughly locked down with good security and encryption protocols, and tight firewalls, you may be in better shape. You know it's dangerous to let your guard down. And we're also pretty confident we have protocols which, when applied to spec, are truly cryptographically strong, and so forth.

      Plus it's a lot cheaper than building out a whole nother net, including access for your critical engineer who's off at a conference somewhere when the unpredicted crisis with the unique system in your plant that she's the genius about requires immediate attention. Sometimes making sure the right people have solid access from anywhere they are is also essential to security. The public net - with the right protocols - does that.

      --
      "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
    16. Re:Remember, folks... by ArcherB · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Mod parent up plse. He refers correctly to the type of brainwashing the way the Bush administration has pursuid the last 8 years. Off course there are still a number of elements present that continue this style up to today.

      You mean like the Obama elements?

      • "Profound economic emergency"
      • "[could] turn a crisis into an irreversible catastrophe"
      • "paralysis" and "disaster"
      • "the federal government is the only entity left with the resources to jolt our economy back to life."
      • "...but I can tell you with complete confidence that a failure to act will only deepen this crisis...."

      You have the "Create a crisis" part down, but you forgot the "Profit" line.

      "Never let a serious crisis go to waste." -- Rahm Emanuel (Obama's Rove)

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    17. Re:Remember, folks... by wisty · · Score: 3, Funny

      If "they" wanted to do real damage, wouldn't they invade the financial systems, rather than power grids?

      Or maybe they did, but were unable sabotage anything without making it better.

    18. Re:Remember, folks... by Idiomatick · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Followed by 10000 yes we cans. So at least he views the fear as something overcome-able. bush admin was like we are all to live in constant fear forever! Well not so much the bush admin as fox news and friends but then fox anchors get promoted directly into bush government. The whole thing is annoying, america needs to get over its teenage angst.

    19. Re:Remember, folks... by Rich0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why not have both? Use the most secure protocols in existence to protect your network, and then as an added measure against zero-day exploits provide strong physical security to keep people out of this network.

      Such a piece of critical infrastructure shouldn't depend on any one human being who might be at a conference and need remote access. When a balistic missle submarine 1000 feet under the ocean is interpreting orders to nuke some foreign country do they depend on being able to reach some particular person to ask questions? Any system critical to national security must be engineered so that it is completely self-sufficient in a crisis.

      Electrical grids are very critical to national security. A well-planned attack could leave melted transmission lines, damaged generators and gearboxes, and a nationwide blackout in its wake. With the possibility of substantial physical damage it isn't like you could just repair from this kind of catastrophe in a few days - or even weeks. Power plants are physical machines that have a symphony of fast-moving parts with thousands of tons of force being transmitted - a well-engineered attack could result in major failures.

      Power grids should have as much security as any other piece of critical military infrastructure. They're going to be targets in any attack. The networks should be subject to routine penetration testing and auditing. Access needs to be the minimum needed to do any particular job. The system should be reasonably partitioned so that one spy getting a job in one office somewhere doesn't subject the entire system to compromise. Those who circumvent authorized procedures (rogue access points, bridges, etc) should be made public examples with criminal penalties. People should be given the funds needed to do their jobs right, and then should be expected to do them right.

      Security is just a matter of being thorough and not cutting corners. There is a lot at stake here. I don't really care who is behind these penetrations (Chinese, hackers, whatever) - the blame rests with the folks who should be protecting this infrastructure.

    20. Re:Remember, folks... by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I can well understand that. And I actually see the whole deal as an attempt to cover their butts to show that they "did something" concerning the threat. They'd be eaten alive by the media if something happened and nothing had been done.

      9/11 is a prime example. What was the first thing we heard? The FBI knew ages before the attack that something like this was planned. Sure they did. And they also heard about a thousand other things that never happened.

      You cannot prepare for everything. I do not expect that. I do expect reasonable preparations, at the most. My liberty is worth more than my life, and I do expect my government to primarily protect my freedom. If the solution to the terrorist craze is to eliminate all freedom then, well, why bother fighting? After all, a regime of terror, fear and total control is pretty much what the terrorists allegedly want to create for us. If we do that ourselves, do we really win?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    21. Re:Remember, folks... by SirGeek · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you have segregated networks, all the spy needs to do is find a single place to tap into your "secure" one, and you're toast. You thought it was secure, so you didn't lock it down properly. And somebody, somewhere left a way in, an unguarded terminal, or cheated and put a cross-connect to the public net for his own convenience, thinking it would never be found.

      Tha WOULD require them physical access to the facility. None of the control centers are going to just "allow" someone access to their network, let alone physical access to the facility. We are told to notify security (who will notify the police officer in the guard shack) if we see anyone who isn't badged.

      If it's all on the public net, but thoroughly locked down with good security and encryption protocols, and tight firewalls, you may be in better shape. You know it's dangerous to let your guard down. And we're also pretty confident we have protocols which, when applied to spec, are truly cryptographically strong, and so forth.

      The Control Centers aren't supposed to take that risk. Its separate the control centers from the company network AND from direct access to the internet.

      Plus it's a lot cheaper than building out a whole nother net, including access for your critical engineer who's off at a conference somewhere when the unpredicted crisis with the unique system in your plant that she's the genius about requires immediate attention. Sometimes making sure the right people have solid access from anywhere they are is also essential to security. The public net - with the right protocols - does that.

      Is it ? Can you honestly say that even the remote possiblity of a compromised system is worth the cost savings if it affects that existence of your company (as a control center) ?

      You have THAT room connected to specific routers that only allow "limited" access and ensure that the users can't install software that would compromise that system. You block their access to ANYTHING that they don't need for business reasons. PERIOD.

    22. Re:Remember, folks... by cayenne8 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "When a ballistic missle submarine 1000 feet under the ocean is interpreting orders to nuke some foreign country do they depend on being able to reach some particular person to ask questions?

      Yes, actually. He's called the President."

      Trust me...when those subs get their orders, and they are verified by the means they use. They do NOT resurface to radio in and ask the president "Are you really, really sure?"

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    23. Re:Remember, folks... by furby076 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Are there real threats? Yes, of course there are. But when enough scaremongering is mixed into them, you get the reaction that the OP AC shows: Cry wolf once too often and people will ignore you. Also, there are a few things that I'd consider a lot more dangerous and worrysome that you don't hear about at all. Intentionally or not, your decision.

      I disagree with your cry wolf. Lets say someone says there is a threat and everyone needs to be prepared and we are going to invest tons of resources to stop the threat. Now we stopped the threat before anything happened. Does that mean we cried wolf? I am willing to bet you a lot of people, including a hell of a lot of people here, would say "CRY WOLF CRY WOLF" when in reality - the threat was stopped due to our efforts. Then again, if we didn't stop the threat people would say "why didn't you do anything? We had evidence this was going to happen and you ignored it. Shame on you" That situation could...oh wait, it did happen...9/11. Has anything like that happened since? No. Does that mean it can't ever happen again? No. Maybe part of the reason is due to our increased security, maybe just luck, and maybe because our gov't thwarted those events. We don't get to see the whole picture all the time. While this may hurt your feelings, it is necessary (I am sure there have been times in your life you avoided telling someone the whole truth for their own good).
      Is there fear mongering? Yes. Are there people who want to spend more money to line their pockets and nothing else? Obviously. Does that mean we should not take every possible precaution to help save people's lives? Hell no. I would rather spend too much money and potentially save a life then spend too little money and potentially lose a life.

      --

      I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
    24. Re:Remember, folks... by Mr.+Firewall · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ...you must live in perpetual fear. Whenever you're starting to focus on the reality of life, new fear WILL be injected into it to distract you.

      Nice bit of cynicism, I like it. But as a former cybersecurity professional who has worked inside of electric power plants, let me remind you that there is a difference between scaremongering (ala Global Warming, mass extinction, and other such nonsense) and REAL threats such as that in TFA.

      I've known for years about this threat. It's nice to finally see someone in the mainstream press take notice.

      Unfortunately, I'm not optimistic that THE solution will ever be seriously considered: QUIT USING WINDOW$ ON CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE CONTROL SYSTEMS.

      --
      In times of universal deceit, telling the truth gets you modded -1 Troll
    25. Re:Remember, folks... by TheBig1 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I assume this was meant as a joke, but seriously, if you were able to take out a large portion of the power grid for any sustained length of time, it would have a huge economic impact. Just from the loss of money while businesses and industries are unable to function would add up to millions, if not billions. That's not even counting the looting and rioting (come on, you know it would happen!)

      Cheers

    26. Re:Remember, folks... by ovu · · Score: 2, Funny

      +1 ugh for living in LA for a week even WITH the electricity!

    27. Re:Remember, folks... by Captain+Nitpick · · Score: 2, Informative

      I assume this was meant as a joke, but seriously, if you were able to take out a large portion of the power grid for any sustained length of time, it would have a huge economic impact. Just from the loss of money while businesses and industries are unable to function would add up to millions, if not billions. That's not even counting the looting and rioting (come on, you know it would happen!)

      Define sustained. Storm-related outages lasting a week or more are not rare, and do not lead to riots or widespread looting. This idea that power outages equal riots seems to stem from the 1977 NYC blackout, but that was a match in a fireworks factory. Most outages are just a bloody nuisance.

      --
      But then again, I could be wrong.
    28. Re:Remember, folks... by HiThere · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, it's a lot more common than that, if you study history. Whenever one group feels unfairly suppressed, and the means of suppression is disabled more than temporarily, you're apt to have an, at least minor, uprising. It usually doesn't lead to anything more than worse oppression in the future, of course, but it is a predictable result. (Doesn't *always* happen, but it's the way to bet.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  2. Big surprise by cdgeorge · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm sure China and Russia are having the same kind of problem.

    1. Re:Big surprise by AigariusDebian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nope, electrical grid computers in exUSSR region do not even have the theoretical capacity to be connected to the public Internet. I am amazed there is an actual data linkage between the public Internet and the computers even remotely related to the power control functionality.

    2. Re:Big surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      You do know that the US penetrated the Soviet pipeline system and has caused industrial accidents with that right?

      The US didn't "penetrate" the pipeline system. The Soviets did it to themselves by stealing software.

      Lesson to be learned: If you find pipeline control software inside a big wooden rabbit then don't take it and certainly don't run it.

    3. Re:Big surprise by benjfowler · · Score: 2, Informative

      I seem to remember that the CIA planted a logic bomb in an shipped component; and it was nothing to do with the system getting hacked over a network.

    4. Re:Big surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      You do know that the US penetrated the Soviet pipeline system and has caused industrial accidents with that right?

      This is what I believe you are talking about: http://www.builderau.com.au/architect/work/soa/US-software-blew-up-Russian-gas-pipeline-/0,339024596,320283135,00.htm

      Russia tried to steal the software to control the pipelines. The US caught wind of the plan and planted bugs in there to cause problems. The US did NOT hack in and cause it.

    5. Re:Big surprise by SirGeek · · Score: 3, Informative

      how else is a power station operator on a remote plant supposed to work? You don't expect them to go to the plant if it is hours away from anything. Stay at the plant, away from families? Forget it. operators telecommute too!

      Do you REALLY think that a "properly" run allows "any" connections to their control units or SCADA systems ? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure that they have people there 24/7 to handle any type of contingencies.

      People always say these things aren't connected to the internet and there are supposed to be seperate control and communication and PC networks but I bet few plants actually have that. Maybe super critical ones like nuclear, but your average small hydro or peaking gas plant...

      They aren't the "power grid", they are power stations. The "power grid" are the master control centers (Like NYISO, CalISO, Midwest ISO, PJM, etc) and the local control centers. There are FERC requirements for how THEY must be configured/setup (like the control room's network must be separated from the rest of the companies network, etc).

      Time, Budget, the need to get that sensor or remote control connected to something, anything, whatever is near by so we can talk to it *now* and then the temporary fix becomes permanent

      Nope. Not likely. If anything it is a PRIVATE network managed by the local control center.

  3. So once a while by microbee · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Some officials" come forward and warn about threats from China, Russia, Iran and North Korea. "Ya know, Sir, we need funding for enhancing national security, so please make sure you get your budget right."

  4. Oh no... by Professeur+Shadoko · · Score: 2, Funny

    They must have the CIP module !

  5. Former officials... by onion2k · · Score: 4, Funny

    former national-security officials

    Aren't these people just admitting that they were incompetent? That's refreshingly honest of them.

    1. Re:Former officials... by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Not necessarily. I've been in the situation where security issues that I warned about, documented, and was refused resources or permission to secure were in fact used against my employer. The Morris Worm in 1988 was a particularly bad example: I had printouts of the management refusals to permit security updates in a locked cabinet to prevent tampering, and my goodness, was I glad I had those. I keep similar files to this day, as a matter of basic self-defense when layoffs are pending and managers are looking for things to blame on our technical people in order to fire them and avoid paying severance bundles.

  6. Software programs? by gzipped_tar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I thought mission critical computers should not be reachable from the Internet. So the spies walked to those computers and planted the software there???

    --
    Colorless green Cthulhu waits dreaming furiously.
    1. Re:Software programs? by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe they got a job working on those systems. I have the internals of several major cities traffic signal systems in my head at the moment, and that is just what I was working on up to ten years ago.

    2. Re:Software programs? by margam_rhino · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Be careful if you live in the UK, this could be classed as material likely to be useful to a terrorist and get you arrested.

    3. Re:Software programs? by giles+hogben · · Score: 2, Insightful

      USB Keys in car parks used by personel?

  7. Very convenient ... by krou · · Score: 5, Insightful
    From the article:

    Under the Bush administration, Congress approved $17 billion in secret funds to protect government networks, according to people familiar with the budget. The Obama administration is weighing whether to expand the program to address vulnerabilities in private computer networks, which would cost billions of dollars more.

    So, the week before a review is due looking into whether or not they should increase the flow from the money pump, "current and former national-security officials" have come forward to draw attention to a network of spies in the power grid.

    Look, I'm not saying that cyber-attacks don't happen, or that there isn't a risk, but bloody hell, this article reads like a well-crafted piece of BS, designed to put the N back into FUDing.

    --
    'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
    1. Re:Very convenient ... by Thanshin · · Score: 2, Funny

      this article reads like a well-crafted piece of BS, designed to put the N back into FUDing.

      Nuding?

  8. Re:Why are they on the internet? by MichaelSmith · · Score: 4, Informative

    The systems I work on are typically airgapped, but there is a constant push from users for some access to the internet. A user might need to access meteorological information, and the simplest way is to go online to get the data. Another user might need to refer to work instructions on the corporate intranet, but the intranet gets you to the internet anyway. Like it or not, the internet is working its way into many types of work and many people are starting to expect it to be available.

  9. China and Russia? by Thanshin · · Score: 5, Funny

    China, Russia, and other countries,

    So you mean there are people capable of hacking the US energy grid but who can't start the attacks from a hacked box in Madagascar?

    "Who's attacking us?"
    "Sir, the attacks come from half a million infected machines all around the world."
    "From all coutries?"
    "Yes, sir."
    "So China and Russia too?"
    "Hmm, Yes, of course, sir"
    "Damn commies... We should've nuked them a long time ago."

    1. Re:China and Russia? by Zocalo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So you mean there are people capable of hacking the US energy grid but who can't start the attacks from a hacked box in Madagascar?

      Maybe the attackers did start the attacks from the box in Madagascar or wherever, but if that box could be hacked by the attackers then I suppose it's possible that it was also hacked by those tracking these attacks who found evidence pointing back to the usual suspects. That becomes all the more likely if at least some of the hacked systems are parts of a honey net or monitoring of compromised systems in the US shows an abnormally high level of communication back to some countries and not others.

      What I find quite interesting about this though is that it's the older cold war opponents being singled out, and not the terrorists like all of those alleged Al Qaeda sympathisers in in quite well connected countries like Pakistan that we keep hearing about. If this were a FUD campaign, then which of those is Joe Public more likely to get worked up about, do you suppose?

      --
      UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
  10. Re:Why are they on the internet? by jolyonr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Then I'd suggest they need two PCs.

    --


    Please read my Canon EOS tech blog at http://www.everyothershot.com
  11. This is the new war. by palegray.net · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Trust me folks, it's coming. It won't be pretty, either. The power to disrupt a nation's economy via information warfare measures represents a much clearer threat than people trying to get something through airport security.

    There's a reason the military is starting to get mighty interested in nerdy types, although most programs designed to leverage these skills are in their infancy. We need to get serious about this fast; other nations certainly are.

    1. Re:This is the new war. by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The threat is actually in consumer PCs, insecure and filled with malware. My fear is that, if we do not get those boxes secure soon, the Powers That Be will see them as a threat and, instead of requiring you, the user, to take responsibility for your box, demand that all boxes have to be made "secure", i.e. have some kind of mandatory surveillance available to them, or that you may only install whatever is approved and seen as ok by whatever entity your country may put in that place. All in the name of national security, of course. And while we're at it, a few kickbacks here or there may 'encourage' said entity to ensure some monopolies are set in stone.

      Not a good thing if you ask me. I'd call for responsibility for your box. Because in the long run, either you're responsible what happens with your box, or that responsibility is taken out of your hands. And given the current political climate, where personal responsibility is shunned in favor of governmental meddling, I'm pretty sure we'd see the latter happening.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  12. No control structure is on internet by aepervius · · Score: 3, Insightful

    AFAIK the whole remotely controlled stuff is not on internet or anything but on modem and similar box (can't remember their name) to which you have to directly dial in (non routable), and is separately powered from the power grid. If not I would fire the ass of the guy in responsibility: who in their right mind would put the control structure for a power grid, on something which can only be accessed when the same power grid is functioning. Also there are local control which override any possible remote control anyway.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  13. Re:Why are they on the internet? by drsmithy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The systems I work on are typically airgapped, but there is a constant push from users for some access to the internet. A user might need to access meteorological information, and the simplest way is to go online to get the data. Another user might need to refer to work instructions on the corporate intranet, but the intranet gets you to the internet anyway. Like it or not, the internet is working its way into many types of work and many people are starting to expect it to be available.

    Then your users need two PCs and a KVM (or even two completely separate PCs - ideally on opposite ends of the desk - to properly drive the point home).

    There are some situations where security MUST override convenience.

  14. Re:Why are they on the internet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    I actually do work with these exact systems. I have yet to install a system in a control room that had net access to the operator consoles or even the operational servers. These computers - yes, running Server 2003/8 or XP Pro - are patched to the latest and greatest before they leave our shop, but once on-site should never, ever, ever interact with the Internet.

    That being said, the PI data servers are designed to be a go-between for the internal secure network, and the rest of the world so the data logging can reach those who need it. Not only does the PI server have security protocols built in, but is required to be installed in a DMZ with full firewall protections, and in some cases a dedicated leased hard line to an off-site office.

    So, to summarize, no, the Op stations, the Op servers, should NEVER be connected to the Internet, and we do out best to disable any way of the operators even getting to the OS level, but there are times and reasons that you need to hook the internal network (through full security measures) to the outside world.

  15. Ya not a real surprise by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Everyone wants money for their projects. Part of getting it is knowing what to sell in your given field. Well, as of late with federal government dollars, national security has been the name of the game. Was more narrow to anti-terror but they are kind losing focus on that. So, it is also no surprise that is what people use to try and get the money, even if what they want really has fuck all to do with it.

    For example Consolidated Edison wants to install a super conducting core in for New York's power grid. Reason is the existing grid has load problems and this looks like the best way to handle it, rather than massive amounts of more copper. This is expensive, of course. To the best of my knowledge when this is deployed, it'll be the first super conductor used for commercial power delivery. Means plenty of R&D in addition to the actual costs. Well, sure would be nice if the government would help pay for that... So they got them to.

    How? Well they sold it to DHS as an "anti-terror" deal. No idea how this is supposed to be more terror resistant, but DHS bought it and that's what's important. They gave ConEd something like half the money they need for the project.

    Now you know that ConEd isn't really doing this as an anti-terror measure, they are doing it as a "grid is overloaded" measure. However, they put that spin on it to get government funding, and it worked. I'm betting this is a similar money grab.

  16. Re:Why are they on the internet? by jolyonr · · Score: 4, Funny

    On one they're controlling the power station, on the other they're reading slashdot.

    Unless typing 'FIRST POST! LOL' on the wrong box causes a reactor meltdown, I think we'll be ok :)

    Jolyon

    --


    Please read my Canon EOS tech blog at http://www.everyothershot.com
  17. Quite so... by denzacar · · Score: 2, Interesting

    From TFA:

    But protecting the electrical grid and other infrastructure is a key part of the Obama administration's cybersecurity review, which is to be completed next week.
    Under the Bush administration, Congress approved $17 billion in secret funds to protect government networks, according to people familiar with the budget.
    The Obama administration is weighing whether to expand the program to address vulnerabilities in private computer networks, which would cost billions of dollars more.
    A senior Pentagon official said Tuesday the Pentagon has spent $100 million in the past six months repairing cyber damage.

    Sounds a lot like someone is making up excuses and drumming up support to ask for more government money.

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
    1. Re:Quite so... by gclef · · Score: 4, Informative

      Close, they're drumming up support for S.773 and S.778. These bills are designed to give the executive the power to control the security of vital parts of the internet. If they can show that these vital parts of the net are compromised, and therefore risking America, they have an easy talking point when lobbying congress members.

    2. Re:Quite so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Don't forget an easy way to shut down the internet when some whistleblower decides it's time to disseminate those files he has before the government removes him... Only instead of in the movies where he gets away with it, because the internet is 'free' and routes around damage. The whole damn thing suddenly goes dark because our glorious and incorruptable administrators decided it's 'better for all involved' this way.

  18. Re:Why are they on the internet? by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There are some situations where security MUST override convenience.

    Tell that to the union. Remember power industry operational environments are blue collar work places. I have seen people in similar environments go to any length to get a system they don't want to see shut down. They will play totally dumb, like not noticing they are using the wrong keyboard for hours at a time. Assume that your users are hostile to you. Then design a solution.

  19. Had to be done by TechnoFrood · · Score: 3, Funny

    Spy sappin' my generator.

  20. Re:Why are they on the internet? by BLQWME · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Any system that needs to be secure should never be allowed access to any network that has public access. If remote systems "need" to communicate it should be done via dedicated leased lines. Even better since we are talking utility type SCADA systems here, why not have the utility lay fiber, line of sight microwave or what have you (as long as it is properly encrypted)? This way if the telco gets ganked, the leased lines can't be traversed.

    --
    "Nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you're a hit man or a video gamer"- Jack Thompson
  21. Re:Why are they on the internet? by Lumpy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Blowing all my moderation to reply to this.

    Let me make this clear. Putting a critical system on to the internet is pure, stupid, incompetence.

    ALL of your "situations" can be solved with a second $399.95 DELL sitting next to the critical workstation. Anyone saying that that is not practical is a blathering moron. I have seen MANY water filtration plants that the Supervisors in charge of the whole operation are so incompetent they put the entire plant's operation system on the corporate or city network. Then we have the low quality SCADA software called WonderWare that is so badly written that the company requests they have direct access to the machines so they can issue fixes faster.

    If any mission critical machines are on anything but a sealed private non connected network, the person that designed it is a incompetent idiot that should take the fall for any failures. Gitmo time for whoever approved or asked for interconnection.

    I have been appalled at the amount of interconnection I see in really important SCADA systems. I have seen this stupidity in major infrastructure control systems for 14 years now. Typically put here by some asshole manager that wants to "keep an eye" on his guys while he is at home. he get's a workstation (typically the one in his office) set up with a second network card and Pc anywhere or another Remote control system to interconnect the secure to the un-secure. and does it with a stupid windows box. Then the idiot uses it to check email, surf the net,etc... All installed by your friendly company IT slackie After the SCADA installation guys go home.

    Every system I looked at that was "secure" typically had one of these bridging computers on it the only way to find the is to do a hard audit of every computer, the rate of finding these security breaches goes up as the age of the installation increases.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  22. It's okay by psnyder · · Score: 3, Funny

    The module that allows outsiders to do this is called the CIP device. I hacks into the governments firewall. Who knew they had just one layer of protection over every bit of US infrastructure, that it's all linked together, and that it could be so easily circumvented by a genius hostage in a matter of hours?

    But it's okay. A man by the name of Jack Bauer has been alerted to the situation. And knowing his previous record I'm confident that he will deal with the crisis, because all of the bad people operate within driving distance to him.

  23. Wolf! by jandersen · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It is rather stupid to keep crying wolf, when there is little to nothing to raise the alarm about. Or, alternatively, it is very clever, if you want people to not take security warnings seriously; only, I can't see why anybody in America would wan't to achieve that.

    Don't we hear these allegations all too often? It's "the Chinese and Russians" they say, and apparently it comes from the CIA or something, so we can't get to see any documentation. Perhaps some would like to think they can poison China's or Russia's reputations with this kind of stories, but as I point out, all they achieve is to weaken America's defence by undermining public trust in the agencies that are supposed to help protect them - it seems idiotic to me.

    And objectively, why should China or Russia want to harm America? Like it or not, they are no longer likely to be enemies of America in a future, global conflict, which will probably be between the industrialised and developing nations. To my mind it seems more believable that the culprits are international criminal gangs; multinational companies have grown to almost nation-like power, and it seems almost unthinkable that international gangs haven't grown proportionally, especially since the introduction of the internet. They would certainly have an interest in staking out as much of the public infrastructure as they can. And, of course they might also see an interest in people not believing public security warnings.

  24. Re:Why are they on the internet? by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ALL of your "situations" can be solved with a second $399.95 DELL sitting next to the critical workstation. Anyone saying that that is not practical is a blathering moron.

    In all the control room environments I have worked in this approach is just not acceptable. The users expect to get a single, integrated UI environment.

  25. Re:refusals to permit security updates... by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm afraid not, that was 20 years ago: I no longer have the originals. There were a set of published security updates for telnet and sendmail at the time, which the Morris Worm probably exploited on my systems: the vendors had not revealed all the exploit details. (Few vendors do.) We frankly didn't bother to do extensive analysis at the time, we had critical work to do and a lot of systems to rebuild, very painfully, from bootstrap systems that hadn't been tested in years and backup policies that I'd also written about as being badly scheduled and incomplete.

    Having the "I told you so" documents on paper can be critical: they have much more power than mere verbal testimony. The fact that I'd kept them under lock and key and wouldn't let the originals out of my hands were an interesting source of internal strife, and revealed some other bureaucratic issues when other documents were somehow "lost" by the people assessing the situation.

  26. Re:Why are they on the internet? by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Informative

    If you were the designer, then you did not do your job educating them as to why they are not supposed to do that, and the repercussions for not following them

    It is the SCADA system designers job to inform the customer as to the incredible danger of their desire to be convenient.

    If you were a employee that worked at one of those stations, why did you never voice your concern about it? One word to the regulators and your bosses would have been screamed at and fined heavily for having an integrated UI for internet, SCADA, and email. Most regulatory commissions REQUIRE security and system separation.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  27. The Attention is Healthy by anorlunda · · Score: 4, Informative

    The WSJ article was apparently triggered by a letter sent by NERC (North American Electric Reliability Council) to its members. I think it shows a healthy development of security digging down to yet another layer of depth.

    Forget the major computers in the major control centers. That's what everyone thinks of first. At that level it is becoming like the Indians and athropologists in the Grand Canyon. For every utility cyber worker there seems to be 30 government gumshoes and overseers looking over their shoulders. One would expect no aspects of security to be neglected at that level.

    The NERC letter refers to devices at a lower level. Primarily, what the industry calls "protective relays" in substations. From 1888 to a few years ago these functions were really done with electromechanical relays. Now, many of them have been replaced by digital equivalents on a one-by-one basis. In a household analogy, it is like the difference between a central electric control computer for the house, as compared to a "smart" digital LED light bulb. One worries about the central computer being hacked, but at first blush, not the light bulb.

    The problem is that the engineers who deal with this level of equipment aren't used to thinking of these devices like the light bulb instead of like computers in a network. They have not identified many of these low-level devices as "cyber critical". The NERC letter urges utilities to change that culture.

    This is an industry that owns and maintains hundreds of millions of diverse pieces of equipment. Every day, some fraction of them are converted to digital. No single study, no single policy can change this infrastructure overnight. I think they are approaching cybersecurity thoroughly and methodically, but it will take time.

    Remember Y2K? Roughly the same collection of hundreds of millions of devices were threatened by a common-mode failure (Y2K). It was very analogous to an external cyber attack. The utility industry tackled Y2K, thoroughly reviewed all those devices, and performed flawlessly on the morning of 1/1/2000.

    My point? Sure we should worry about cyber attacks on critical infrastructure, but don't jump to the conclusion that no security exists or that nothing competent is being done about it.

  28. Right as Obama is asking for emergency powers to c by SirBitBucket · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Interesting timing for this report to come out right as Obama is asking for draconian emergency powers to be able to shut off the internet and other private networks at will without regard for any law. http://www.tomshardware.com/news/obama-shut-down-internet-legislation,7478.html

  29. Spy sappin' mah sentry! by PNP_Transistor · · Score: 2, Funny

    Or rather, "Spy sappin' mah power grid!"

  30. Re:Why are they on the internet? by Rich0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The solution is oversight. Congress passes a law noting that major pieces of infrastructure are critical to national security. An oversight body is created to set policies for administration of such intrastructure. Violation of these policies carries criminal penalties.

    Then you have the Feds start busting control rooms. Manager in charge gets sent to prison.

    Let's see how fast those managers can arrange to have competent people on-duty 24x7 and not need to use pcAnywhere or whatever to get in.

    As much as I'm not a fan of a lot of military culture this is one thing they REALLY get right. The mission comes first. Just think about it - they manage to work out every process to something that some 20-year-old with two years experience can supervise with 18-year-olds doing the grunt work. The officers then stay on top of things. The captain of the ship sleeps on the ship and can be woken up at any time should the situation require it. Even the president can be woken up if the chain of command truly requires it.

    Manager too lazy to come in to work to see what is going on - no problem, just hire one for each shift.

    Not every business needs to be run like a ship. However, the power grid isn't just any business - it requires a much higher level of rigor.

    Some have pointed out labor relations issues. These sorts of issues should not impact national security - just look at the Air Traffic Controller strike. By all means the workers should be given proper time to complete their jobs in a secure way - if two computers slow them down then hire a few more people and give them time to do the job right. The solution isn't to cut corners.

  31. Re:Remember 2003 Blackout from Worm by woodsrunner · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think that software bug was unpatched windows machines in Ohio. But I was too close to it all and may just be making an erroneous jump for correlation to causation. The network storm caused by that virus was pretty horrendous.

    As the story unfolded the early reports said the machines were unpatched. Then that story seemed to be brushed for reasons I can only guess with tinfoil hat securely fastened.

    I imagine there were many factors that met on that day contributing to the blackout. And I doubt the virus was designed to take down the grid. But the lesson I took from it is that there are many critical machines that are hooked up to the internet or networks that hook up to the internet that aren't properly maintained and these sort of events will be more common. Also that if a non-specific virus can do that much harm I shudder to think what a well designed attack would unleash.

  32. Re:Why are they on the internet? by AB3A · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I am a control systems engineer, a member of ISA-99, and a contributor to several other standards on industrial control system cyber security.

    The parent post is what SHOULD be done in a recently installed system. I can tell you from experience of dealing with other infrastructure (not the electric grid) that it isn't always that way. There were many systems installed around Y2k that are still in service. And most of you will remember that back then very few people took security seriously. Back then it was all about compatibility. Security wasn't even an issue. The big issue was SHARING the data.

    Control systems and SCADA have long working lives ranging from ten to twenty years. The reason for this is because the field I/O validation cost is significant. It dwarfs the cost of the software, the control center, and all that lovely flashy stuff you're so used to seeing. Updating a configuration is very expensive, not just in validation costs, but also training costs, for miscellaneous costs such as review of operating procedures, control system narratives, and so forth. This is why many are forced to keep their systems isolated in the hope that by doing so, things will somehow stay secure.

    But these days, that's no easy feat. Nearly every company has a contingent of data surfing desk jockeys with enough authority and enough dream-weaving synergy talk to push for interconnections. That's when things get very ugly.

    The problem isn't that they want the data. The problem is that they want the data IN REAL TIME. Most of the time these idiots say the term though they do not understand the implications or even what it means. And that's how the exploits get started.

    There are solutions. There are relatively secure methods for moving data in and out of a SCADA system. But they need careful review by people who know both the industrial side of things (to identify what is at risk) and the IT side of things (to know what the potential vectors could be). And the number of people with that kind of expertise is extremely small. We're talking about hundreds or maybe a thousand such people world-wide.

    There simply aren't enough people to train the trainers who will train the trainers. And so, we're stuck with the status quo until we can build a community of cross trained people who understand industrial processes, control systems, and IT large enough to handle this situation.

    I know many of you probably think you have it bad in the office IT business. And it is. Just know that there is far more truth in the Homer Simpson character than you'd ever dream of...

    --
    Nearly fifty percent of all graduates come from the bottom half of the class!
  33. Re:Why are they on the internet? by sjames · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Color codes can help a lot. Blue network is scada, green is public. Scada network has blue ports, blue cables and blue stripes on the devices. Public internet has same deal but in green.

    Plugging anything in the wrong color is a firing offense. Specially designated and signed off gateway machines might have a blue port and a green port and special markings that it is OK. Otherwise, any color mis-match or mixing is to be reported immediately.

    For extra paranoia, all blue network devices get the high octet set to non-zero (on the card's flash, not just setting it by the OS). The wrong MAC seen on either network is an emergency.

    Watch the union guys cheer when said asshole manager is escorted from the building for plugging a green cable into a blue workstation.

  34. Re:Why are they on the internet? by AB3A · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Such products exist. The problem is that data often does need to go both ways.

    For example, load shed, distribution system models, and demand forecasts often go to servers and clients outside the distribution control center.

    These sorts of operations are near-real time processes.

    Likewise the outputs include run times, certain transient events, and hourly/daily total meter data often go in the other direction.

    As I said before, with careful consideration given to a DMZ between the office network and the control systems, with a sacrificial historian server, and with careful monitoring and alarming, it should be possible to safely set up a portal to the office network.

    People have written books on this subject, and I expect to be doing so before long. It is not something I can fit in to a nice pithy message here.

    --
    Nearly fifty percent of all graduates come from the bottom half of the class!