How Facebook Runs Its LAMP Stack

prostoalex writes "At QCon San Francisco, Aditya Agarwal of Facebook described how his employer runs its software stack (video and slides). Facebook runs a typical LAMP setup where P stands for PHP with certain customizations, and back-end services that are written in C++ and Java. Facebook has released some of the infrastructure components into the open source community, including the Thrift RPC framework and Scribe distributed logging server."

Comments

Open source

[Norsefire]

As I recall, some of their code was made open source in 2007, although not deliberately.

Re:Open source

[Anonymous Coward]

*whoosh*

Not very well

[kbrasee]

Every few days I run into whole sections of core Facebook functionality that are just plain broken for hours. Earlier this week, my main page wouldn't load for most of the day. And every couple of weeks I'm greeted with a "Sorry, you can't log in right now." message.

Re:Not very well

[firmamentalfalcon]

There is much more to Facebook than its LAMP stack, so you shouldn't just blame LAMP stack. And even if the LAMP stack does not work perfectly, there are still insights that developers can glean from it.

Re:Not very well

[Sebilrazen]

Every few days I run into whole sections of core Facebook functionality that are just plain broken for hours. Earlier this week, my main page wouldn't load for most of the day. And every couple of weeks I'm greeted with a "Sorry, you can't log in right now." message.

Are you kidding me? That's not broken, those may be value added features. I'd give a kidney if I didn't need to see the results every time a "friend" - using the term loosely - took a goddamn quiz to find out they were Pablo Picasso in a previous life, yet they were born in 1972 and Pablo died in 1973.

Re:Not very well

[rs79]

You do realize you can customize FB to get as much or as little as you want in terms of those notifications don't you? Look up skillfoo.

The problem I have with FB is not that (any more) it's the fact their, as of the last rev) paged are so JS computationally complex now that rendering my FB home page cause my (fairly contemorary IBM/XP) laptop to just freeze for about 7 seconds while it's doing its JS and ajax goodness.

Previously, only slashdots new look did this, and not for as long.

I can get past the idea that almost nobody in the world understands how the iterface works and that it changes too quickly for any book to be of use, but this slowness. Wow, I dunno.

Re:Not very well

[drinkypoo]

PHP is, as I've profiled it, horribly inefficient. If you've got low traffic, it's a great solution for creating a quick, simple web site, but it doesn't easily scale to the kind of traffic facebook manages.

FUD-o-riffic. Facebook can cache most of their content which dramatically reduces the overhead of using a scripting language. They're not generating the whole page every time, unless they're big fucking idiots.

Re:Not very well

[inasity_rules]

Every time facebook comes up and people complain, I'm happy to point them in the bloat free direction. Although this also suffers from feature creep, the "like" madness has recently infected facebook mobile... :{

Re:Not very well

[SteveFoerster]

So, what are you going to do with Sebilrazen's kidney?

Re:Not very well

[FishWithAHammer]

You do realize that you can do massive improvements to PHP perf in the space of 5-10 minutes without a recompile right...? The idea that PHP is "slow" is FUDtastic. Of course it's slow if all you're doing is letting it interpret every time, but with APC or another caching mechanism it's interpret once, run-the-bytecode every other time. Massive speed improvements.

Re:Not very well

[Firehed]

PHP, as a language, is more than capable of handing four requests per second (which can be said of pretty much anything other than punch cards).

Writing bad code in PHP, however, will of course slow things way down. Just like not having indexes on your databases, or doing stupid/unnecessary JOINs. Or not caching properly (see: Wordpress). Writing fast and efficient code in any language is easy enough provided you're a skilled programmer. Facebook, unfortunately, started off as Zuckerberg paying a friend with some web skills to build out a system, and it grew so quickly that replacing the code (or, rather, the DB schema) with something that doesn't suck probably became near-impossible. If you write code with scalability in mind, it's not a tremendous problem.

Of course, nothing is going to cope well with the sheer volume that Facebook deals with. There's plenty you can do along the way to help yourself out, which Facebook may or may not have done. You can bet that nobody thought the site would ever have 200MM users when the first lines of code were written; they probably never expected 1% of that. Writing intelligent code is the most important part of scalability - writing smart DB queries and minimizing the number required probably being the biggest part of that. Have your MySQL servers instead of PHP do some calculations in queries (hashes, query-related math, etc) usually doesn't hurt since you're generally offloading CPU-intensive operations to a disk-bound machine (i.e., has spare cycles).

There's all sorts of tricks and optimizations. Some are language-specific, and some aren't. But making bad decisions early on is a lot harder to fix than an inefficient foreach loop.

Re:Not very well

[kv9]

but with APC or another caching mechanism it's interpret once, run-the-bytecode every other time. Massive speed improvements.

that, plus lots of content caching (think Wikipedia style, with gobs of squids in front of your apaches) makes it even faster.

note to mods, use less crack. parent is not flamebait.

Re:Not very well

[Fweeky]

They have somewhere in the region of 5,000 servers in their main datacenter and (I believe) others scattered around the world, but restricting it to just that main center, that means each server is handling around 4 requests per second

I somewhat doubt every single one of them is a dynamically driven webserver. Probably at least half are databases, search servers, caching servers, backend appservers, file servers, CDN type stuff, backup servers, hot spares, admin servers, staging machines, etc.

For example: Newzbin has 5 webservers in main rotation; it also has 7 search servers (plus one development machine with similar specs), 6 database machines, 2 backend systems running most of our cronjobs, 2 admin servers, 1 web development server, and 2 systems for building and deploying OS's from. As far as load is concerned, the backend stuff is far more important than the frontend. Sure, we could rewrite the main site in Java or Scala or C++ and get away with 3 webservers and still be N+2, but trust me, those extra two or three webservers is not a significant cost next to that of development.

I can either spend £5k on extra equipment (plus occasionally boosting our space and bandwidth costs, but those are dominated by other systems already), or I can spend £70k a year on another developer, who *still* won't allow us to match our development speed with PHP, and then rewrite tens of thousands of lines of code, likely into much more.

Much of our backend is written in C. That's where the big payoffs for efficient languages is, not a bit of database-limited HTML rendering. Judging by how many big sites are still running PHP, Python and Ruby for their frontends, this would seem to be the case elsewhere, too.

Re:Not very well

[Anonymous Coward]

I know someone who works at Facebook.

FUD-o-riffic.

According to my contact, PHP is a serious problem there. It scales poorly, requiring Facebook to throw more hardware at it.

They're not generating the whole page every time, unless they're big fucking idiots.

On the contrary, they hire lots of smart people. But they have legacy code that was not well planned for the size of operation they have now, and it has been painful to try to clean things up after the fact.

Re:Not very well

[coryking]

Facebook can cache most of their content which dramatically reduces the overhead of using a scripting language

True. But writing cache code is not easy and makes your code more brittle. It increases the likely hood a user will interact with the website and do something, say "update my profile" only when they click "save", their profile hasn't updated yet because your cache sucks. Then you have to plaster your site with bullshit messages about "please allow 30 seconds to see the change".

But what is far, far, far worse is you are allocating programming resources to non-features. Caching is a non-feature that adds zero value to your website. Your users dont interact with your cache. They interact with your website--and I bet if you are like any moderatly complex site, you've got all kinds of bugs that annoy the hell out of them. So rather than allocate your developer time to fixing those annoying bugs (thus adding value) or adding new features (thus adding value), you are stuck pissing away time optimizing bullshit your users never see.

So yeah. You can cache the fuck-all out of your website. But only by stealing developer time away from working on features that make your users happy. Of course if you wrote the thing in C instead of PHP, you'd have a different set of development problems of which I could only have nightmares about.

In otherwords, engineering is always a tradeoff. Use PHP (and MySQL) and piss away developer time on caching the fuck around their weakness. Use a compiled language like C and piss away developer time doing fuck-if-I-know because you didn't free mallocs or had to write a template language from scratch or some insane shit like that. Pick your poison!

Re:Not very well

[drinkypoo]

As you say, there is a tradeoff. It doesn't matter if you're fighting the need to cache intelligently in PHP, or the need to get everything right because you're developing a complete solution in C (or whatever) or the need to interface to someone else's system for serving pages if you're using something in between. It also doesn't matter if you're using a servlet technology, or you're punching bits out on a paper tape and feeding it into a machine which converts it into EBCDIC and... you get the idea: don't fuck up.

In any case the whole argument is fucking stupid because: PHP is not implemented in PHP. And Facebook is not implemented in pure PHP. See summary: Facebook runs a typical LAMP setup where P stands for PHP with certain customizations. At some point you have to ask yourself how many wheels you want to reinvent. If you extend PHP you can reinvent fewer wheels. I'm not sure it's the right answer, but I'm sure it's not a horribly wrong one. I'm also absolutely certain that barring some massive development in processing the future is only going to involve more parallelism and more clustering, and that if you expect PHP to scale on a single machine you're a bozo.

What I have personally noticed about using PHP is that a single page load can consume an absolutely insane amount of memory. This problem, too, is mitigated or eliminated by aggressive use of caching. In order to cache properly you need to do something intelligent with your data store, which I think is where most people fall down. Having looked into the mishmash that most CMSes produce in the db is enough to make you weep. I long for an elegant object-oriented CMS based on practically anything, but the simple truth is that PHP is by far the easiest thing to get going without spending any money and that has probably done more than anything else to propel it to the head of the FOSS class, at least in terms of popularity. A staggering number of quite excellent websites seem to be built with it as well.

In summary, I reject the notion that PHP is a serious limiting factor for the majority of websites and that most of those for whom it is have failed to understand PHP. (Not that I'm any PHP guru.) It's true that a clustered web application is significantly more complex than something which is not clustered. However, it's also [potentially] far more scalable. At some point you simply run out of machine. When you can't get anything better from Sun (AFAICT they make the single machines which can handle the most threads today) you're going to have to cluster, even if it's only to two machines. At that point you'll have far more complexity invested in having a single system image to work with and the pain of moving to a cluster will be magnified that much more as well. If you accept the notion that clustering is today and for the foreseeable future the best way to handle scalability (which I admit is at this point not a proven notion, but is at least a well-supported theory) then the idea that PHP is a major limiting factor is just plain silly. Sun is circling the drain, and everyone else is concentrating on clustering. Your call...

Re:Not very well

[WillKemp]

[......] rendering my FB home page cause my (fairly contemorary IBM/XP) laptop to just freeze for about 7 seconds while it's doing its JS and ajax goodness.

That's probably XP then, not FB - cos it doesn't do it on my (fairly contemporary Lenovo/Linux) laptop.

Re:Not very well

[chromatic]

If the system were written in a compiled language, that wouldn't be even slightly taxing.

What makes you think the system is CPU bound?

Re:Not very well

[FishWithAHammer]

I've had some dipshit going through and modding a lot of my posts flamebait over the last couple days. It's actually kind of funny.

I've been thinking about trying to ditch apache on some mid-volume sites of mine and seeing how lighttpd handles it, see if there's any improvement. I don't use the majority of apache's functionality, so it could be a definite plus.

Re:Not very well

[julesh]

PHP, as a language, is more than capable of handing four requests per second (which can be said of pretty much anything other than punch cards).

Not, I think, if your application is running into the 1 million lines of code range, as suggested by the presentation. Remember that the PHP interpreter has to reparse each of those lines for each request.

Re:Not very well

[Frools]

Have your MySQL servers instead of PHP do some calculations in queries (hashes, query-related math, etc) usually doesn't hurt since you're generally offloading CPU-intensive operations to a disk-bound machine.

Interestingly in the presentation he said they actually do the opposite of that, things like md5 hashes are done in the application rather than on the DB because its much easier to scale up the number of web servers

Re:Not very well

[Anonymous Coward]

You might note that the presentation covers this to some extent. They mention some customizations they've made to PHP in the area of caching the bytecode from the PHP source files. They mention that PHP, by default, will stat the file system every 2 minutes to see if files have changed. From the sound of the presentation, they've probably customized it to check for updated files only when explicitly instructed to since they don't change the code that often.

Don't get me wrong...I still think PHP is completely unsuited to a site the size of FaceBook, but it's not reparsing the PHP source file for every request.

Re:Not very well

[encoderer]

Unless you're, you know, not braindead and you implement opcode caching... Not to mention, those 1MM lines are no doubt spread across thousands of files, classes and functions. Only a fraction would be interpreted for each request.

Re:Not very well

[encoderer]

This is basically rubbish. HTML Rendering is not the bottleneck. It's the DB. Tweaking the MySQL Query Cache and using memcache is the solution here.

In both cases, you'd update your cache as part of the DB update.

Any cron-driven pre-caching is just the PB to your caching jelly.

The query cache requires no add'l code to implement and can produce huge efficiencies. Simple sharding will ensure any given mysql server has enough cache resources to remain performent.

And memcache has swell libs that sit in front of an entire cluster of mc servers and make your life easy. Cache server sharding and striping are done for you.

It becomes as simple as:

function load_profile(id)
{
    memcache = memcached.instance();
    if (profile = memcache.read('profile_' + id))
            return profile;

    p = profile.instance();
    if (profile = p(id))
            return profile;

    throw new Exception('not found');

}

Re:Not very well

[encoderer]

FWIW, clustering doesn't have to be hard. Vertical webserver sharding can get complex. (eg, these servers load accounts, these servers handle signups, etc)

But you can simply scale out many PHP/Python/Ruby apps by storing Session data in the DB or on a NAS share. Then do a simple round-robin in the balancer.

Storing session data that way does give u a bit of a hit so you won't see try (O)N scaling. Probably something more like (0)0.9N. EG 2 servers would give you 1.8x the capacity of 1 that stores session data on a local physical disk.

Re:Not very well

[badkarmadayaccount]

I believe there was a LLVM front-end for PHP... Can't be arsed to get it.

A hodge podge mess

[thammoud]

As an architect, I decided to view the presentation so that I can learn new things about scalability and architecture. This presentation came across as very amateurish and lacks any serious technical depth.Facebook seems to be stitched together as a set of "solution de jour" technologies without any real architecture behind it. Too many languages, frameworks and other gems. These guys took the notion of the right language for the task to an extreme. I have to believe that code releases into production is a big challenge for these folks.

Re:A hodge podge mess

[julesh]

These guys took the notion of the right language for the task to an extreme. I have to believe that code releases into production is a big challenge for these folks.

It explains a lot of the complaints you here about them regularly (I'm not a user, but almost everyone I know is...), specifically that they're not rolling out new features as often as they did when they were small, and that large parts of the site are often unavailable for lengthy periods.

Re:A hodge podge mess

[RedK]

You mean like technical depth in architecture documents ? The only people where I work that can ramble on for hours without ever saying 1 clear thing are IT architects.

Re:A hodge podge mess

[Gothmolly]

Declaring yourself an 'architect' doesn't mean a) you are one or b) you do anything OTHER than vague, powerpointy kinds of things. Given that Facebook is bigger and more complex than anything you have built, you should consider reserving judgment.

Re:A hodge podge mess

[Anonymous Coward]

You sure about that?
http://pastebin.com/f23937796
Looks like shit to me

Re:A hodge podge mess

[kv9]

This presentation came across as very amateurish and lacks any serious technical depth.

much like your post.

Re:A hodge podge mess

[thammoud]

In other news, GM is about to declare bankruptcy, yet one point in time, they produced the most number of cars in the world. I have news for you. THEY WERE SHITTY CARS and eventually that caught up with them. I have no formal mechanical or design engineering background. I bet you have no opinion on GM since you never produced cars.

Re:A hodge podge mess

[mfnickster]

Facebook seems to be stitched together as a set of "solution de jour" technologies without any real architecture behind it. Too many languages, frameworks and other gems.

I was thinking the opposite - they have developed an architecture that is modular enough to allow them to develop different pieces using different technologies, yet they all work together pretty seamlessly. I'd say that's quite an accomplishment!

Re:A hodge podge mess

[rinoid]

Blah blah blah blah.

"Facebook seems to be stitched together as a set of "solution de jour" technologies without any real architecture behind it."

What's "de jour" about PHP or LAMP? Christ man they have been around for over a decade.

So if this was written in Cobol would that make you happy?

Have you developed anything with the reach, user count, view count of Facebook?

FB doesn't seem to be buckling under the pressure. More photos are uploaded to FB than any other site man:
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/02/22/facebook-photos-pulls-away-from-the-pack/

What's so hodge-podge about that implementation?! Because it's not JSP serving?

Re:A hodge podge mess

[codepunk]

There are two types of people in this world, those that talk shit and those that do shit. Every so
called "architect" I have ever met falls into the talk shit category. I also find that those that are in the
talk shit category make up for the fact that they cannot do shit by talking shit.

Most modern languages can be made to play rather well together, certainly in the web development arena where
multiple languages are a must. You already have to master at least two our three languages for typical web development
a couple more is going to make little difference.

Re:whatever

[rarel]

It sheds a light on the infrastructure at least. Their implementation may not be very bright, but that's quite enlightening nonetheless. Many others would just keep us in the dark.

How Facebook Ruins Its LAMP Stack

[dr_wheel]

I need new glasses.

Anyway, I think the answer is 'Simply by existing'?

One question:

[bogaboga]

About how much has Facebook saved by using Open Source Software? I ask because I am not familiar with licensing costs from competing solutions. Thanks!

Re:One question:

[julesh]

About how much has Facebook saved by using Open Source Software? I ask because I am not familiar with licensing costs from competing solutions. Thanks!

I haven't watched the presentation so don't know if this is answered there, but it's hard to pin down any numbers on precisely how many servers facebook operates. That said, an estimate of their expected power usage in their recently acquired second datacenter is 6 megawatts, placed at twice the usage in their current datacenter. Realistically, this probably equates to a cluster of around 5,000 machines in the current datacenter.

Costs per machine are likely to be restricted to Windows Server Web Edition; other software would not be needed on all machines (depending on cluster architecture, of course) so would be a trivial cost in comparison. Retail for the web edition is $399; I think we could expect such a high profile user to qualify for a 50% discount. This would put their software costs at about $1M. Considering that they're believed to have spent over 100 times this on hardware and support costs over the last year, I doubt this would be a particular concern. Price of purchase is not a factor in why facebook does not run on proprietary software.

Re:One question:

[ducomputergeek]

That's always hard to calculate. It's always licensing costs vs. man hour costs. I've been involved in projects where people were trying to get MySQL to play nicely with EC2 without paying for MySQL enterprise. The amount of man hours it cost them would have made DB2 a much better solution. Especially with the fact that DB2 Express-C is free and already had AMI's ready to go.

Re:One question:

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the real question is, if they run with LAMP so much, how come they have and request for so many oracle developers?

Palo Alto, CA

Description
Facebook is seeking an Oracle Applications Database Administrator to join the IT team and help build and maintain the IT application footprint. This is a full-time position based in our main office in downtown Palo Alto and will report to the manager of IT Development.

Re:One question:

[David Gerard]

Microsoft has announced the infrastructure for its cloud computing service Azure, formerly (and presently) Windows Vapor.

"We want all open source innovation to happen on Windows. In practice, Windows is too slow, and just putting Linux underneath the same software stack triples performance. So we're running the Windows versions of the software on Linux using Wine."

The new Microsoft Amazingly Open And Genuine Public License allows you complete freedom to use, modify and redistribute the software provided that every copy comes with a DVD of Windows Vista Ultimate, you acknowledge that Microsoft's FAT patent protects a remarkable and valuable innovation in computer science and all documentation is in OOXML.

(work in progress, not yet on notnews)

Re:One question:

[ceejayoz]

Yeah, that's why they call it the GNU General Public License , eh?

Re:One question:

[scientus]

yeah sorry, wrote without thinking.

It doesnt have licences is the same way as commercial apps. Also agreeing to the licence is not mandatory to simply use the software, unlike the presumptions made by proprietary licences. In that way its licence is very different, but I did use the wrong words.

Re:One question:

[rinoid]

>...by using unsupported opensource isnt that big of a deal

Uh-oh the scary phrase "unsupported opensource" that all the FUD spreaders use when someone suggests using OSS on a project.

Guess what? Open source software is supported. It is supported by your engineers actually doing something with their knowledge other than sitting on the other end of a phone tree waiting for support to ask you if you've rebooted. It is supported by the many supporters to the code tree and by the open, expansive user forums.

Re:whatever

[AHuxley]

To quote a joke on slashdot
"Is there anything Java cannot make slow."

Re:whatever

[Antique Geekmeister]

Well, they have the now-classic problems of needing to add new features to draw more users, to keep users from getting bored, and especially to convince investors and advertisers that there's any growth market for them. This means constantly using their infrastructure in new ways: new database manipulations, new tables, new display utilities, and retaining compatibility across a broad range of clients and older applications. This inevitably slows down new releases.

core broken functionality

[viralMeme]

"Every few days I run into whole sections of core Facebook functionality that are just plain broken for hours"

What response did you get when you reported it to the Bug Reporting site?

Re:core broken functionality

[kbrasee]

Didn't submit a bug report, I never knew they had such a page. They certainly don't display it in a place where it's easily noticed.

Re:core broken functionality

[viralMeme]

"Didn't submit a bug report, I never knew they had such a page. They certainly don't display it in a place where it's easily noticed"

I Googled on 'facebook bug report' and which lead to an article that mentioned it ..

Re:core broken functionality

[kbrasee]

That is a more roundabout way than I would have expected.

Mark Zuckerberg is a GEGAWNTIC DOUCHE w peach fuzz

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, the sweet ironies (and hypocrisies) in life. There's something beautifully creepy about a person fighting so hard against the same thing they fought so hard to create. In today's case, the culprit is Mark Zuckerberg, the young man more responsible than perhaps any other for his generation's obsession with displaying itself publicly on the internet. The New York Times has reported that a judge turned down Facebook's request to have "unflattering documents" about Zuckerberg removed from the website of Harvard magazine 02138.

At the center of the issue is an article in 02138 about Facebook's evolution and the subsequent lawsuit from classmates asserting Zuckerberg stole the idea and computer source code to begin his own project. The New York Times calls the article "sympathetic to the plaintiffs's account and questions the validity of Mr. Zuckerberg's claims."

The 02138 article also contains Zuckerberg's handwritten application to Harvard, and a journal that "contains biting comments about himself and others."

Perhaps Gawker summarized it best, saying, "This is the same dude who made billions from a website that allows you to let everyone in your friend network know when you are peeing."

And now he's mad that a private persona he would like to keep that way has entered the public domain. Yes, the sweet ironies and hypocrisies in life: why do we love them so much?

a hodge podge customized solution

[viralMeme]

"Facebook seems to be stitched together as a set of "solution de jour" technologies without any real architecture behind it. Too many languages, frameworks and other gems. These guys took the notion of the right language for the task to an extreme. I have to believe that code releases into production is a big challenge for these folks"

What's 'hodge podge' about a highly customized solution. It is precisely what LAMP is all about. It does seem to work for them and with Facebook supporting 200 million active users, it is a good example of an Open Source success, so they must be doing something right.

Related /. article

[rwa2]

I know this should be the job of tags, but to help put this in context, remember the recent uptime comparison that showed Facebook with pretty decent availability compared to other social networking sites. I'd say it takes the admins a fair amount of disclipine and perseverance to attain those kinds of numbers. (of course, it probably has nothing to do with the uptime of their various sundry and mostly useless modules, but I'd guess that's a different set of admins than the ones that care for the core LAMP platform)

This almost makes Facebook geek "cool" in my book, but I guess all the non-geek "cool" kids who use it already think so.

Re:Related /. article

[BitZtream]

It takes pretty much 0 work to make LAMP continue to function. Its for all practical purposes, set it up once (properly) and forget it.

It takes work to make the applications on top of it function continually as thats where the change occurs. LAMP isn't going down on its own, it'll appear to 'go down' because of the 'mostly useless modules' that work along with it fail, not because LAMP does.

I would expect the admin(s) that care for 'the core LAMP platform' spend most of their time doing other stuff. In reality, its probably only multiple to avoid any single person holding to much knowledge and to maintain coverage while that person isn't at work. I just can't imagine they do a whole lot of work 'keeping it running', with the exception of handling database growth and performance, which is more likely handled by the people who design and work with the applications that use that database.

Re:Related /. article

[mR.bRiGhTsId3]

I am not a DBA (but I did stay at a holiday iinn express last night). But wouldn't it make more sense that the DBA's handle db performance and tuning since they are the ones intricately familiar with how it is set up. Isn't the whole point that the developers working on the db apps should just know what data they want not how the db is configured.

Re:whatever

[theillien]

Whatever they're doing, it's not working too well. Sure, they manage to serve the pages, but the user experience is confusing and it seems to take them forever to roll out new and improved versions.

That has little to do with the infrastructure and more to do with the site design. Please don't blame the sys engineers/admins for the poor interface design.

Misread

[Cyphertube]

When I first saw the post, I though it said how Facebook RUINS its LAMP stack.

I think that has to do with my experience with the apps and how often things timeout in that regard. It's a little frustrating and I'm sure it has nothing to do with the guys at Facebook, but it is interesting to find how that third-party experience affects my subconscious.

Re:whatever

[Tubal-Cain]

Too paraphrase the answer:
"Sun's stock price plummet.

Why Spend Miilions When You Can Spend Billions?

[aoheno]

Well, I'll be - the first LAMPCJ Stack - make it too big to fail.

For all of you fellow architect bods out there, this is how you do it:

PHP - California, Texas and France
C++ - New Jersey and Tibet
Java - California, India, and Somalia

Now, what does this variable name in Somali represent?

Yeah, Blame the Language

[aoheno]

PHP is the most popular language on the planet for a good reason - transaction rate.

If code is written in any language such that the app cannot handle more than 12 transactions per second, it's time to find another profession instead of blaming the language.

Depending on the application, PHP can handle several hundred transactions per second, on *one* machine. It is common knowledge that Java requires far more resources to achieve a typical transaction rate, than PHP.

Re:Yeah, Blame the Language

[julesh]

Depending on the application, PHP can handle several hundred transactions per second, on *one* machine. It is common knowledge that Java requires far more resources to achieve a typical transaction rate, than PHP.[citation needed]

This is just bullshit. A Java-based server will typically require a fairly constant 64MB more RAM than an equivalent PHP server, but other than this the Java system will outperform PHP in every sense. If the content generation is even remotely complex, Java can be up to 100 faster, which translates to 100 times higher transaction rate.

Sure, PHP can handle several hundred transactions per second, if your script is <?php echo "hello world"; ?>. This benchmark of a non-trivial e-commerce application shows that Java can easily handle 500 requests per second on a small 2000-era 4-cpu cluster. A modern quad-core server should be handling at least 20 times that rate, absent any improvements in Java architecture since then (and there have been many; this test was run on Java 1.1, which was hideously slow compared to modern Java versions), and ignoring the performance improvement from not having to load balance requests at the front end or access the database server across the network.

Re:Yeah, Blame the Language

[aoheno]

This is bullshit

julesh may well be right, wrong, or somewhere to the middle, left, or right of that. Civility helps others accept a point of view. My old-timer would tell me to, "wash your mouth out son".

The benchmark alluded to by julesh at (http://www.mindcraft.com/perfreports/nas/nas40-audit.html is for the Netscape Application Server. Nothing about PHP and Java there.

Here is a objective article referring to a presentation given by no less than a Director of Web Technologies at Sun, the Java bods. There is no bias for Java or PHP:
http://www.cmswire.com/cms/industry-news/php-vs-java-vs-ruby-000887.php/

...The reality is that there are a great number of ways to hone-in on the language or framework choice for a web application.
...the proponents of Java, PHP and Ruby are lighting the Internet aflame in defense of their platform of choice and at the same time nay-saying their fellow players. While very entertaining and sometimes educational to follow, not much is going to be gained from this bickering.
...The beauty of what we have today is that there ARE a great many choices out there, much more-so than even a few years ago.

Check out this presentation instead of the many spurious articles on the Internet and make the choice best suited for the application. There is no outright "king of the hill" any more. No sense in using Java when PHP is better and vice-versa.

While others flame, those who really know technology create the Java and PHP systems the flamers cannot.

Re:Come on guys

[BitZtream]

While I think Facebook is nothing more than one big popularity contest, I have to agree.

At least most of the stuff on Facebooks website works.

With slashdot, half the time clicking on a comment to expand it doesn't work unless I refresh several times or copy and paste the link into a new browser.

The right hand sidebar will say 'freshmeat' and show stuff from linux.com and vice versa.

At first I thought this was because I still used IE and that was the problem, being that slashdot doesn't cater to IE users, fine. So after I switched to Chrome I figured it wouldn't be an issue, yet its not any different.

I still can't expect expanding a comment to work, I still get crap listed as fossfor.us showing freshmeat entries, 'get more comments' doesn't do shit half the time.

As I've said countless times, programming in PHP and using MySQL 99% of the time means you don't know what you are doing. There are, however, those few large sites that use it that can actually justify its usage because it fits, but only if you actually know what your doing.

I have websites powered by PHP, ASP.NET, ASP, Java, and C. Some of those are good fits for what they do, some of them aren't and I've learned that the hard way. I've also learned that in most cases things are written because a developer 'knows' a specific language. My personal opinion is, if you only 'know' one language, you aren't a programmer. A real programmer can use just about any language given a good reference manual, and can be proficient in that language rather quickly after starting to work with it.

Unfortunately, most people who call themselves programers, aren't. They just happen to be able to get by with a language they've been spoon fed in the past long enough to hack out some POS that barely manages to get the job done and will drive any sane programmer absolutely mad when they get stuck taking over after the original devs are found to be incompetent.

Makes you wonder how many online services have failed because of arrogance and ignorance of the developers.

Re:the blame is with management

[Anonymous Coward]

That has little to do with the infrastructure and more to do with the site design. Please don't blame the sys engineers/admins for the poor interface design.

Well, the fact that they gave a talk about their LAMP stack tells you that they consider engineering more important than site design. Furthermore, a poor choice of infrastructure makes doing good site design hard.

And that's my point: Facebook is evidently driven by system stuff and programmers, while it should be driven by site design.

Clearly, $MY_SPECIALTY should drive the entire system! They made a big mistake by allowing $OTHER_SPECIALTY to take precedence. Everyone knows that only $MY_SPECIALTY should dominate all design plans. Duh.

Re:the blame is with management

[Firehed]

If your site infrastructure is influencing how you design, you've made some sort of monolithic error along the way. Good code completely separates the content from the design. It's not like they've just hacked up a Wordpress install (which seems to go out of its way to tie content and design together) - Facebook employs hundreds if not now thousands of programmers; it's pretty safe to assume there's at least one UI/UX specialist on board as well.

All things considered, I'd actually say that Facebook's design is pretty decent, but that's of course a matter of opinion. A lot of the code that went into that design sucks, but that's what happens when you have to support IE6. Regardless, I think it's great that they're sharing knowledge about how they've managed to use and customize an infrastructure to support 200,000,000 users, especially with the amount of traffic they have to deal with. That's well beyond the scale that many governments have to worry about!

Re:the blame is with management

[Frools]

It was a talk by the Director of Engineering to "an independent online community focused on change and innovation in enterprise software development".
Of course it was about their LAMP stack and backend infrastucture and not their site design...

Both Java and PHP Are Interpreted

[aoheno]

Both Java and PHP are interpreted languages because this is how you create a cross-platform language.

Each gets compiled to bytecode which gets executed in a OS specific VM.

Jave bytecode is compiled manually. PHP bytecode is compiled automatically using an encoder. In both cases code is compiled once and reused.

We chose PHP for our website because of it's efficiency in terms of development (e.g. no class generation step for programmers) and execution overhead. You don't need as much memory or cpu to run a typical PHP server.

Frankly, most websites do not need an app server. Wikipedia uses PHP, not Java. It is not a 'simple' website that you say PHP is suited for.

Re:Both Java and PHP Are Interpreted

[julesh]

Both Java and PHP are interpreted languages because this is how you create a cross-platform language.

Each gets compiled to bytecode which gets executed in a OS specific VM.

Java is JIT compiled to native code, whereas PHP is bytecode interpreted. The difference is more than an order of magnitude. In fact, judging by this comparison, in many cases Java is about 100 times faster than PHP.

Frankly, most websites do not need an app server. Wikipedia uses PHP, not Java. It is not a 'simple' website that you say PHP is suited for.

Wikipedia is presenting uncustomised content to most users. It runs a huge squid cache in front of its PHP servers. If it tried to run PHP for each user it would crawl. I run mediawiki locally on an AMD Athlon64 2200+. It takes ~0.2 seconds of 100% CPU time to process a simple request. There is simply no way Wikipedia could run without content cacheing.

This is not to say that the task of serving that content is cheap. But they're doing a lot better than facebook; they're serving 30,000 requests/sec with only 350 servers. The difference, I suspect, is mostly down to the amount of cacheing they prform.

Facebook is much less able to cache content. It doesn't have a squid front end because relatively few users see the same exact content, unlike for wikipedia; most users are logged in most of the time and see pages customised for themselves.

Re:Both Java and PHP Are Interpreted

[julesh]

Compare all of the above with a site like plenty of fish, which while handling only about 1/40th the traffic is using less than 1/200th the number of servers to do so, because they've chosen a compiled architecture.

I've been trying to find stats for Amazon, which uses a primarily C++-based system, but haven't been able to dig up any info on how many servers they use, unfortunately.

Re:the blame is with management

[rinoid]

>Clearly, $MY_SPECIALTY should drive the entire system! They made a big mistake by allowing $OTHER_SPECIALTY to take precedence. Everyone knows that only $MY_SPECIALTY should dominate all design plans. Duh.

Awesome.

---

The user experience and flow at FB improved IMHO with the recent changes.

Re:the blame is with management

[kv9]

Furthermore, a poor choice of infrastructure makes doing good site design hard.

yeah, they obviously should have used RoR. that certainly scales better. oh, wait...

Re:Come on guys

[kv9]

With slashdot, half the time clicking on a comment to expand it doesn't work unless I refresh several times or copy and paste the link into a new browser. [...] At first I thought this was because I still used IE and that was the problem, being that slashdot doesn't cater to IE users, fine. So after I switched to Chrome I figured it wouldn't be an issue, yet its not any different.

if you're using the index2.pl (beta) in anything other than Firefox you're clearly an idiot. they state the support for that browser and the fact that it's beta should be enough of a hint to stop whining

if you're using the classic index and are having any of these problems you're lying through your teeth because they dont exist.

either way, you're an idiot.

Jihadists AHuxley and Tubal-Cain

[SgtChaireBourne]

Well, now we see who is pumping M$ on Slashdot.

It looks like turfers are turning their poison pens towards Sun, just as near a decade ago they turned towards the late Novell.

MOD PARENT UP

[da_matta]

This is both informative (a believable in-the-ball-park analysis of Facebook operational costs) & insightful (price is not enough to be the best solution)

Re:MOD PARENT UP

[Derek Pomery]

Offhand guess they picked LAMP back when prices *were* more of a concern for them, and have no incentive to switch now.

Re:the blame is with management

[WillKemp]

[......] a Wordpress install (which seems to go out of its way to tie content and design together) [......]

Huh??? How do you make that out? Wordpress is just a content management system that spits out mostly almost plain text wherever you put a relevant PHP command. There's not much of what it outputs that contains any serious formatting - apart from a few situations where there's no real alternative.

Cassandra

[beemishboy]

There's also Cassandra, the Java based distributed database that they've made open-source - first on google code, and now as an apache project(in incubation).

Who gives a shit?

[PingXao]

I guess a story on /. with only 75 comments after 7 hours pretty much answers that question, eh?

Re:whatever

[Yfrwlf]

Meh, not having an opinion on the capabilities of the Java system itself, anything which needs extra library Y that you aren't using yet is going to slow down while loading it though. I know that Java is even slower due to it being a virtual machine and not just a library of course. Most programs now days have ports for all three major OSes any way, at the same time computers keep getting faster making running things like Java less annoying, so I can't decide whether Java use will increase or not.

Re:the blame is with management

[ZachPruckowski]

Well, the fact that they gave a talk about their LAMP stack tells you that they consider engineering more important than site design. Furthermore, a poor choice of infrastructure makes doing good site design hard. And that's my point: Facebook is evidently driven by system stuff and programmers, while it should be driven by site design.

Aditya Agarwal is Facebook's Director of Engineering. Infoq is a site about software engineering. This is a talk by a software engineer, hosted at a software engineering site. Of course it's about software engineering. That tells us nothing about Facebook's priorities vis a vis engineering and design.

Jeff Kaplan (Blizzard's Lead Game Designer) gave a talk about WoW quests at GDC. That doesn't mean that Blizzard thinks that PvE content design is more important than PvP class balance or graphics, it just means that the game designer is talking about his area of expertise in front of a crowd that's interested in his area of expertise. If I wanted to hear a Blizzard employee talk about graphics, I'd go to Nvision or something, and I'd listen to whoever Blizzard's graphics engine guy is, and if I wanted to hear about Blizzard's PvP class balance ideas, I'd look for talks by Greg Street (Ghostcrawler, their lead class balance guy)

Re:the blame is with management

[speedtux]

If your site infrastructure is influencing how you design, you've made some sort of monolithic error along the way

I haven't, but Facebook evidently has.

All things considered, I'd actually say that Facebook's design is pretty decent

I find it confusing as hell, and so do most people I know.

I think it's great that they're sharing knowledge about how they've managed to use and customize an infrastructure to support 200,000,000 users,

Come on, scalability is off-the-shelf stuff these days.

Re:whatever

[HardWoodWorker]

Try actually benchmarking Java http://kano.net/javabench/ Server-side Java is one of the fastest scalable platforms available.

Re:whatever

[thsths]

>at the same time computers keep getting faster making running things like Java less annoying

Luckily Sun has an answer for that, too: the next Java version is always more than compensating for faster computing :-(. Iremember that back in the days I timed JRE 1.0 or 1.1 to start within 3 seconds on a 486 (!). It takes longer to start JRE 1.6 on my state of the art dual core now.

LLSK

[Samah]

Just to be different, I run: Linux, Lighttpd, Sqlite, Kepler