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In Defense of the Anonymous Commenter
Hugh Pickens writes "Doug Feaver has an interesting story in the Washington Post 'in defense of the anonymous, unmoderated, often appallingly inaccurate, sometimes profane, frequently off point and occasionally racist reader comments that washingtonpost.com allows to be published at the end of articles and blogs.' Feaver says that during his seven-year tenure as editor and executive editor of washingtonpost.com he kept un-moderated comments off the site, but now, four years after retiring, he says he has come to think that online comments are a terrific addition to the conversation, and that journalists need to take them seriously. 'The subjects that have generated the most vitriol during my tenure in this role are race and immigration,' writes Feaver. 'But I am heartened by the fact that such comments do not go unchallenged by readers. In fact, comment strings are often self-correcting and provide informative exchanges.' Feaver says that comments are also a pretty good political survey. 'The first day it became clear that a federal bailout of Wall Street was a real prospect, the comments on the main story were almost 100 percent negative. It was a great predictor of how folks feel, well out in front of the polls. We journalists need to pay attention to what our readers say, even if we don't like it. There are things to learn.'"
It's an interesting indicator of the swing and countervailing political views of a given paper. I've noticed that in "blue state" papers, the comments are often very conservative and red-meat. Conversely, browse a rural paper and you'll find quite a bit of commenting coming from a relatively blue/liberal point of view. It's almost entirely ugly illiterate trash, but it's an outlet for those who may feel oppressed in the general population in which they live.
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I beg to disagree. A First Post is the perfect place to put a reply where it will be seen.
No one reads anything beyond the twentieth or so reply to an article, if you don't reply to one of the first posts it doesn't matter how funny, interesting, or insightful it is, no one will read it.
And it helps if you change the subject line. From my experience, a reply with a new subject line is much more likely to get a positive moderation than a "Re: ... " subject.
I also have to beg to disagree, because I said there is no value in "First Post" meaning, people who post solely saying "First Post" as opposed to saying there is no value in _the_ first post.
Can I leave this box empty?
>If this autorefresh / click to unpause crap doesn't stop soon, I'm outta here.
Go to your preferences and you can kill it as long as you're logged in. Maybe it's all a tactic to annoy users into logging on. It's certainly irritating.
1 in 4 Maine children in struggle with hunger.
Journalist learns that other peoples opinions count. News at 11!
You can turn that stuff off, ya know?
As one who frequents it...frequently...the Washington Post comment section really is a cesspit. Imagine what you would get if the Slashdot mod system worked in reverse, and people were karma whores for "flamebait," "troll," and "offtopic" tags. It isn't 4chan. But it's amazing that it's on the same site as one of the country's most respectable news outlets.
Of course, Feaver's points would carry more weight if the boards were structured differently. For instance, if WaPo had nested threads instead of a flat message board, you might see more of the "correction" and "dialogue" between different posters than you otherwise do. As opposed to ranting, which is what happens when I...I mean, some person...stands on a soapbox without having dialogue. Empty flames cast into a void.
On the other hand, I'll say with a straight face that I think Slashdot has the best comment section around, if not for the quality of the posters themselves, then because it's good at suppressing and elevating voices based on the wisdom of crowds.
But yet I go back there again and again...
I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
This is your time to shine! Bring on the Tsarkon Obama reports, Yoda doll insertion tutorial, "*BSD is Dying" announcement, and the GNAA recruitment posting. Don't disappoint me!
This type of interaction is what used to be part of the Letters to the Editor section of the newspaper. Before we could spam online forums with our unmoderated comments, newspapers used to publish the best responses to their stories on the old Opinion page.
Nowadays, with that removal of editorial moderation, we are exposed directly to the effluvium and vitriol that was so carefully screened away from our eyes in those old days. Whether this is a good thing or not, I don't know.
What I do know is that opinions of low or nil value are exposed to the light of day. With this shining light most of these errant posters are shouted down and pummeled (figuratively) by right-thinking mainstream posters.
Whether this represents a significant change is debatable, though. Whereas unpublished letters to the editor forced these people to seek out each other underground, the new method still forces these posters to seek out forums where they are the majority. Perhaps it is Slashdot with its geeks and nerds. Or it is Free Republic with its right wingers, or its counterpart LGF. On the extreme ends you have StormFront and the ADL.
The result is a polarization of the web, people talking only to themselves, and less of a conversation than before. When you become a "troll" for holding a contrary opinion, how easy it is to decide to seek out communities that support you rather than shout you down.
what if these online people express a view that does not flatter one of your advertisers. Would you take them seriously then.
Umm why should you have to defend what is a right guaranteed in the constitution?
No one says you have to make sense or add value when exercising your right.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Uh, maybe Feavered didn't notice (even though it is the subject of his commentary) it but those "exchanges" are edited by politically correct editors who will edit out the most politically threatening information.
Who reads the Washington Post anymore anyway? If you want to see interesting exchanges about race and immigration, you won't see it in places where the best arguments against the political zeitgeist have been edited out and then proclaimed not to exist.
Seastead this.
To ban anonymity is just a simple (and hypocrite) way to repress freedom of speech. Politicians would desire that, for sure.
On the contrary, anonymity is a practical way to express opinions without loosing time in unuseful registration procedures.
The Washington Post has merely realized that it needs to allow ignorant posters their forum in order to compete with talk radio. I have seen little evidence that ensuing discussions necessarily iterate to rational, informed conclusions.
Providing a forum for extreme ideas is a bit like teaching creationism in science classes.
Woverly Harris Gooch, IV CTO American Fire and Bomb, LLC
I am somewhat surprised that a longtime editor would make such an absolutely ridiculous statement. Apparently, the journalist (OK, editor) did not do much research before publishing his view. It is pretty common knowledge that comments on a story are not a cross section of the readers views. Most readers are passive, and do not comment on every story they read. They will only respond to those which strike at their sense of values, or that the reader strongly oppose as false (obviously, this is my reason for commenting now). If everyone who read a Slashdot story commented on it, Slashdot would need far more storage space than they use now. Almost any Blog or News Site would have ample material to reference from their comments section to demonstrate the fact that the fringes of the audience's views are echoed in the majority if the responses, and that only an exceptionally striking article will receive more of a balanced response (yes, Virginia, there is an audience).
By definition the world is mostly made up of average people. For those of us that were products of public schools and other institutions that accepted everyone regardless of their abilities or backgrounds we can probably think back on groups that showed exactly what "average" means.
This combines with the most common failure of unfettered democracy, the tyranny of the loud (and perhaps underemployed/bored/obsessed), to create a perfect storm of vitriol, ignorance, and selfishness in places like an open forum online.
Quite simply, people without knowledge or experience in a field deserve less speaking time than those with knowledge and experience. If those people that are excluded from a discussion because they are ignorant or inexperienced want to participate than they should take the time to become knowledgeable and experienced in the field.
I always like to see open discussions but I also like to see comments rated and organized so that I can sift through the crap to get to the gold, something that guyminuslife mentions is missing from the Post's website system.
And to speak directly to a comment from the original article, the fact that the comments show the true feelings of the citizens of this country is interesting from a polling/election point of view but the details of those comments don't add much, if anything to the discussion at hand. This is especially true of indefensible positions like racist or sexist comments.
Like trees blowing in the wind.
Journalists should report the news as objectively as they can. Paying attention to their readers is pandering, and it results in a feedback loop with predictable consequences. We need a thoughtful critical press capable of asking hard questions and not settling for non-answers from those in the news. We need a system in which the President (and others in power) cannot exclude a journalist because he/she asks those hard questions.
Anonymity is an interesting concept, but we should recognize that the guy up on his soapbox in Hyde Park is not anonymous even if we do not know his name.
The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
You'd think someone with such a low UID would get that. Just shows that simply because you've been around for a long time it doesn't mean you actually understand things any better.
What puzzled me was that other than them missing the point completely, they seem to have a pretty good grasp of English as far as the rest of the post shows.
Can I leave this box empty?
monkeys with typewriters also post the truth sometimes - it's no show of greater insight or intelligence just like noise versus terrorist chatter
I disagree to you then. "First Post" in essence opens it up for everyone. It's when it's an "NGAA" or whatever troll that there's no value.
Maybe hang around some more, you'll get the drift.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Comparing that to a racist, white supremacist organization staffed by neo-Nazis... not the same thing at all.
How exactly is it different? Both groups feel themselves victims. Both groups want justice for themselves.
Frankly, I think people need to stop all the victim-hood mentality. If you don't want to be a victim, be a victimizer! Yay!
Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
Saying racist and/or sexist positions are indefensible doesn't make it so. How are they indefensible? I've heard a lot of arguments in defense of those positions.
You're going to have to do better than, "I don't agree" to convince the people who are making those arguments that their positions are indefensible.
Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
In relation to this, it is amazing to me how many sites are able to set the tone for the conversation without having a forum/comment section on their own site.
Pitchfork Media has some of the most controversial music reviews. I still don't think you can leave a comment directly on their pages. Compare that to NME, where the first review I opened had a comment section.
From the political isle: Instapundit Glenn Reynolds and Matt Drudge's Druge Report. These two pages set the tone for many (not all) conversations in the conservative blogosphere, yet no direct comment section. Same for the conservative magazine National Review. I'm wearing my political beliefs on my sleeve here. I invite someone to post a liberal site sans comments, I can't think of one on the top of my head.
The effect of removing a comment section forces the reader to search out if someone has a counterpoint to your opinion, which while it may not be terribly difficult via google, is something people simply are not accustomed to doing. This has two effects. It protects your reputation, since it is possible that someone reading your page would never know an opposing opinion. As an extension of that, since your reputation is far cleaner than a page with potential detracting comments, your message is securely delivered - whether it is that pitchfork thinks band x is good and they are also sponsoring a music festival featuring band x that you should purchase tickets for (no direct conflict of interest there!), or that you think policy y position is a good one and that you have friends that would benefit if policy y is advanced (Larry Kudlow at NRO here).
It may not necessarily be a mark of cowardice to not have direct comments on your site, but the inclusion of it is definitely a mark of bravery.
This is about money. It's not enough that news be reported accurately from reliable sources, vetted and checked for accuracy. These days it is paramount that the news outlet must show a profit to the parent company that owns the news outlet.
Trying to make this into "I'm now open minded" or "I've rethought my position" isn't the full story.
The business is "show a profit". Not "reporting news" or journalism.
"Give a woman two glasses of wine and some pad thai, and they'll agree to just about anything." the Sports Guy
Journalists are learning that listening to people might be newsworthy. Or, at the least, indicate where the news might be.
I can handle censors editing out the most obscene language. I might handle censors deleting or editing calls for unlawful actions. I can even handle censorship of the most obscene pornographic material on a public forum.
Otherwise, unmoderated forums are a valuable tool to society, the journalists themselves, and even to government. Anonymous posts have been acceptable since the days when we revolted against England.
And, the Post is just figuring that out?
Now, if they would just improve the format of their stupid page, they might be worth reading.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Used to have good karma, got totally modded down by people who simply disagree with an opinion different from their own.
Oh well.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
I'm never posting anything anonymously ever!
You now need JS enabled to metamoderate. If you haven't, or won't, you'll be directed here:
http://slashdot.org/faq/UI.shtml#ui700
Of course, if you never log in, this is moot.
I started using the Internet when it was the ARPANET. Nice place. Interesting people. Cool projects. Then it became the Internet, then AOL hooked in, and suddenly I discovered that a large percentage of my fellow countrymen are ignorant, illogical, paranoid, quasi-literate, parochial, xenophobic, homophobic, sexist, racist, anti-intellectual believers in UFOs.
I mean I knew they existed, but not in such numbers. The Internet is democratizing, and it sure as hell shows what's wrong with democracy.
I piss off bigots.
Online media, unless operating purely on subscription basis, needs ads. Ads are priced according to unique clicks and time spent on that page by readers (reader's interest). A lot of posts indicate interest. Controversial, or even flamebait articles frequently generate the longest comment trails. Scholarly, analytical articles go with scarcely a comment. Thus the tendency of some online media to adjust their content downward.
This is not a new phenomenon. TV has learned it a while ago - witness daytime shows, Ricki Lakes, Montel Williamses, Jerry Springers, and other tabloid trash programs. The difference now is with the immediacy of feedback, hence this spiral happens much faster. Anonymous posts (and to a lesser degree even nicknamed posts, like mine), only add an accelerant to this process.
End anonymous moderation and posting on
Both metamoderation and moderation are a 100% waste of time on Slashdot.
Great posts are often lost at low ratings, and terrible posts get modded up. Slashdot editors pursue vendettas against various posters, and anonymous posts, regardless of content, are rarely modded at all.
This is a great site, with great content, but the only way to really experience that is to read at -1 and completely ignore the moderation, which simply does not work.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
The fundamental problem with moderation is that it inevitably slows and stifles conversation. Often it actually loses creative contributions which really discourages contributors.
Sometimes the slowing might be a good thing. More often, it is thought to be a good thing by people who are more annoyed by undesireable postings than worried about postings that might have been dropped. The underappreciated "false postive" problem.
Makes me think about the moderation (and meta-moderation) process. I've thought sometimes about trying to get an "ask slashdot" post on just how moderators (and meta-m's) rate things.
And I'm guessing you weren't a statistics major.
The BBC has it's own reader's comments section called "Have Your Say". It's moderated by a BBC team and it's notorious for censoring completely valid and non-abusive opinion. For example, when they had a topic on Google's participation in censorship in China, some posters pointed out that the BBC also censors things. The BBC responded to this by removing their posts (the topic that day had pre-moderation switched off, something that virtually never happens now). This prompted other people to point out the irony of the BBC removing posted about BBC censorship on a topic about censorship. The BBC then quickly pulled those posts. This prompted more similar responses and eventually the BBC gave up.
These days all of the topics are premoderated and if they don't like your opinion, it won't go up. Those posts pointing out cases of BBC censorship would never have made it onto the website. For example, I made a recent post on the topic of How should the police handle protests? (coming after a protester died after being assaulted by the riot police). I pointed out that assaults on unarmed and non-violent protesters are routine, that the media knows it and that they are only writing about it this time because someone died. The post was rejected without explanation (as all rejections are).
I firmly believe that members of the public should be able to make posts on news stories without being pre-moderated by some faceless team of people with rather nebulous posting rules. I think if we could make posts on any news topic (e.g. each news item could have a discuss button) on the BBC (or any other outlet) it could really affect the way they report. For example, during the massive Israeli military assault on Gaza earlier in the year, the BBC website was plastered with images clearly showing the use of white Phosphorus. The problem was that despite these clear images, and despite people writing in and pointing it out, the BBC refused to use the term "white phosphorus" for a whole week. Would they have been able to get away with that if the top-rated post under their Gaza news stories was about White Phosphorus being used?
He must have gotten word from Karl Rove. Those guys love anonymous web comments.
By the way, have you guys seen this one? Clumsy British Centipede Stings Itself To Death In Public
I have JS enabled, but am blocking certain things via noscript. I get the no-JS error; apparently just enabling JS on slashdot.org isn't enough to be able to metamod. As a result, if they're making me jump through so many hoops to help them out, I just won't bother.
Incidentally, even more sillily, the metamoderation reminder only appears if you have JavaScript off...
(1)DOCOMEFROM!2~.2'~#1WHILE:1<-"'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"
She was too optimistic. I would paraphrase that to read: "Never doubt that a small group of vicious, ruthless, bigoted bastards motivated by religious zealotry can change the world; it happens all too often." Applies equally well to Al Qaeda and the Bush administration, although the relative scales of their crimes are different.
I piss off bigots.
Or just do what I do with every annoying site. Disable javascript. On a properly designed site like this one, you don't lose a single thing by reverting to HTML. And yes, I call this properly designed because it works just fine without javascript, unlike the horde of flash only sites or the ones that seem to force JS to be used as nothing more than a wrapper for an anchor tag.
Thanks to just using HTML, I wouldn't even have known about this new change if not for people griping about it. The site works fine for me, the same as it has for the last 10 years.
NoScript is your friend for this one.
I don't currently disable Slashdot's Javascript but that "pause" feature on the main page is making me want to. Here's my problem with Javascript: it's so goddamned slow. A multi-core system with lots of RAM should not take that long to download and display 10 new story headings. I suppose it could be that Slashdot is slow to perform the network transfer, but when I think about how much bandwidth they must have, I tend to doubt this. I also doubt this because Firefox will try to max out one of my CPUs while this is happening so I doubt that this is I/O-bound.
Really now, I'd like an example of non-trivial Javascript that doesn't feel about four times slower than it should be. Firefox has come a long way towards addressing this issue but it's not exactly "there" yet. I'm not a JS programmer so I have no idea whether this is exclusively a property of JS itself (or its implementations) or whether many JS apps are simply far more complex than they need to be.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
The Air Force has these secret radars that can tell the difference between a mosquito and a gnat, and right now they're using them to track all the alien spacecraft that they're not telling us about, because of course you know that the Air Force is really run by a bunch of nigger lesbian feminist illegal immigrants who are secretly in the pay of the international Jewish banking conspiracy. See, if the international Jewish banking conspiracy ever let honest God-fearing white Americans find out just how many aliens are visiting the Earth each day, the banks might collapse and...
Uh-oh.
I piss off bigots.
They recently migrated some JavaScript over to fsdn.com, so you'll have to allow that too. I have NoScript and I was wondering for a while why certain things on Slashdot stopped working even though I had allowed them before.
No existe.
IAMM (I am a math major), and he did not provide a strawman, but rather a counterexample. Or are you denying that there can be bimodal distributions? For example, the average number of ovaries per person is roughly one, but not that many people have exactly one ovary.
As for intelligence, IQ scores may be normally distributed, but intelligence is far more complicated. Even if we limit it to knowledge of an issue, it is normally distributed? Is it normally distributed for each issue? How would one know?
I am shocked at my moderation of the parent comment disappearing (before this post). I modded it +1 interesting, commented in another thread as anonymous coward and poof -- the point is now gone.
I am not particularly happy with that, seeing as the system didn't say the point would disappear into oblivion and I could have used another machine to post AC to retain the point.
Can't capitalize, can't punctuate. The shift key is just there for decoration, isn't it?
People like you were extremely few and far between when it was just the ARPANET.
I piss off bigots.
This is a great site, with great content, but the only way to really experience that is to read at -1 and completely ignore the moderation, which simply does not work.
In my personal opinion, there's no other way to experience Slashdot.
You could read the articles. I tried that a few times.
Can forced-anonymous commenting focus writers' attention on substance and quality, instead of flame wars or other personal one-upsmanship?
-- John S. James www.RepliCounts.org
The Air Force has these secret radars that can tell the difference between a mosquito and a gnat...
Heh. You don't need a secret radar to determine that. Any old radar can distinguish between the two... a gnat's radar return is *much* smaller than a mosquito's. The *really* tricky part is distinguishing between a gnat's return and that of the wind-blown trees outside!
I'll take a fair meritocracy over a flat democracy any day of the week, TYVM.