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Game Developers On Gold Selling

Eurogamer has an article which takes a look at how various game companies deal with gold spammers in their games. Some, like Mythic, take a hard stance, literally telling farmers and sellers to "go to hell." Others engage in an arms race to block such behavior, sometimes to the detriment of normal users. "In fact, a former Jagex source tells me that when Jagex banned all IPs connected to gold selling, 'they lost 10 per cent of their membership, and still haven't recovered in terms of numbers since they did it two years ago. Even though they have almost stopped gold selling in RuneScape, it has cost them two million active accounts; i.e. there were four million players, there are now two million players, of which less than one million actually subscribe.'" Still more companies are experimenting with real money trading (RMT) to at least establish some control and security over the situation.

12 of 424 comments (clear)

  1. Re:That summary literally sucks by Onion · · Score: 5, Informative

    RTFA. It has a link and a direct quote of the "Go to hell" comment.

  2. Gold selling is a good idea by cliffski · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Because when I see that people are actually PAYING someone else to play the boring parts of a game for them, it's easy for me to deduce that what we have is not a fun game, but a tedious grindfest designed to keep bored teenagers playing forever and ever.

    The solution to goldfarming should be to find out why earning gold in the game is so bloody tedious and focus your design efforts on making the game fun to play. Games are supposed to be fun, not a second job.

    --
    DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    1. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by Alarindris · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because when I see that people are actually PAYING someone else to play the boring parts of a game for them, it's easy for me to deduce that what we have is not a fun game, but a tedious grindfest designed to keep bored teenagers playing forever and ever. The solution to goldfarming should be to find out why earning gold in the game is so bloody tedious and focus your design efforts on making the game fun to play. Games are supposed to be fun, not a second job.

      I couldn't disagree more. The fact that people are paying money in addition to their subscription means that the game is fun or has value to the player.

      Personally, I never 'grind' gold. I play the auction house and can then do whatever I want.

      "Oh, but see you are avoiding playing the game!"

      No, I AM playing the game. I'm sorry you couldn't figure out a way to do it too.

    2. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by Majik+Sheff · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Sounds like you fit the mindset of EvE players. The game can be a relentless grindfest or a fantastic exercise in playing the market. It's all in how you choose to play the game.

      --
      Women are like electronics: you don't know how damaged they are until you try to turn them on.
    3. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by MozzleyOne · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Because if you could do that, anyone could have anything they wanted whenever they want it, and that's what makes a game shitty.

      But gold doesn't get you everything you want, even now. MMO's almost never let you just buy the best items from gear. The only 2 avenues to getting the best gear in WoW are raiding and PvP - there are really no good items you can just buy. If you dumped 500,000 gold on my WoW character now, the only thing that would change is I would stop having to farm gold. My character wouldn't be better, no-one else would be affected - I'd just have more fun. Imagine if no-one needed to farm gold - you could just log on and start doing what you wanted to do.

      PS - Get auctioneer and put in 10 minutes when you log on, you'll have plenty of money in no time. It's not like it takes any real effort.

      I don't want to put in 10 unfun minutes when I log in. I don't want to NOT have fun when I play a GAME. I want to log in, have fun and then log off. Why do we need to do unfun things before fun things in MMO's? I do things I don't like in order to get things I do like in my everyday job. There's no boring, unfun grind in FPS or RTS games before you can start having fun.

      --
      Ayjay on Fedang
    4. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by guyminuslife · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I actually think one of the reasons why WoW is popular is precisely because it's mostly boring.

      Imagine if the game were all about instances and non-stop PvP. You sign in and it's like, oh, Unreal Tournament. That's the fun stuff, right?

      There's enough of that to "reward" you for playing. But of course, that's all spaced out over a lot of tedium. Most people playing WoW are bored most of the time they're on it.

      The tedium is essential because it means you start getting attached to menial stuff. You go into guild chat and have SUPER-DRAMA over who gets which raid spot and why did that hunter roll on that shaman gear. The tedium is necessary, of course, as a step in the direction of uber-ness, to get your quest or your experience or your crafting materials or whatever. And so at first you tolerate it. And then you get used to it. And eventually you depend on it.

      Like playing the slot machines; most of the time you lose, but you win often enough that you just have to keep putting in quarters.

      --
      I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
    5. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by smallfries · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That's a really good description of an optimal reward-schedule for addiction. Of course, most (all?) people can't distinguish between addiction and fun, hence the huge popularity.

      I tried to find a decent description of this on the web (I remember reading an old analysis of how to optimise the payback in slot machines that went into reward schedules) but failed. This is the closest that I could find. The main point it makes is that tedium is essential to addiction. It serves to highlight the non-tedious bits and space out the rewards randomly. Nice to hear a personal, non-clinical, description of it for a change.

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
    6. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by Alarindris · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But gold doesn't get you everything you want, even now. MMO's almost never let you just buy the best items from gear. The only 2 avenues to getting the best gear in WoW are raiding and PvP - there are really no good items you can just buy.

      Thank god for that.

      If you dumped 500,000 gold on my WoW character now, the only thing that would change is I would stop having to farm gold. My character wouldn't be better, no-one else would be affected - I'd just have more fun.

      Problem is, you are able to then spend less time than everyone else to get X piece of gear from X boss. You could say that the only real MMO currency is time spent playing. A certain amount of effort needs to be put in to achieve any goal.

      Why don't they get rid of health and death? I don't think that's fun at all! I want to have 100% fun all of the time! Get rid of quests, why can't I just start at 80? I don't think leveling is fun either!

      "Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty... I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life. I have envied a great many people who led diffcult lives and led them well."

      -Theodore Roosevelt

    7. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by Talderas · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I could use alternate ways to make money, but I don't find playing the auction house fun. In fact, I find it highly unethical. You're taking advantage of people who don't know what things really should cost. That's flat out wrong. And anti-gold farmers complain about my ethics?

      Gold farmers -rarely- just straight up farm gold off of monsters. They use auction houses, they don't just take advantage of people not knowing how much something should cost, but they also have a tendency to inflate prices.

      Take Final Fantasy XI. You don't get much gil from monsters, or from selling items (which makes me wonder how the gil is generated in the first place), but rather you make your money from selling goods on the auction house. In FFXI, gil sellers would camp NMs to get their loot to sell on the auction house for ludicrous prices. They essentially jacked up the prices for most rare loot items. The money they made from selling the items is then sold to players, which is used to buy the aforementioned up-priced item. If the player tries to farm the mob on his own, then he has to compete with the gil sellers (who were good at camping NMs) and other players looking for the mob. When Square finally put their foot down on gil sellers you saw a marked deflation in prices.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    8. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by Rich0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You could say that the only real MMO currency is time spent playing. A certain amount of effort needs to be put in to achieve any goal.

      You've hit the nail on the head exactly, but I disagree with your conclusions.

      In my experience people who hate trading of real-world cash for in-game gold tend to be people who have lots of time to play, and not lots of real-world cash to spend. People who like to buy in-game gold tend ot have little time to play, and lots of real-world cash to spend.

      Obviously self-interest dictates that people who have lots of time to kill should want the game to reward time spent above all else. People who have lots of money to spend want the game to value real-world money above all else.

      There really is no "right" and "wrong" way to design a game. Thus, there is no end to arguing between these parties and a huge arms race as people willing to take real-world money will do whatever they can to create in-game advantages for their customers to stay in business.

      I think there needs to be a balance. Games should not be designed so that new players can't expect to enjoy the majority of the game until they've spent 300,000 hours playing it. New content needs to be available at all levels of play. On the other hand, it isn't good for gameplay when some newbie can walk around killing people left and right with an uber-sword-of-destruction that they bought for $19.95 on ebay.

      I think that if you make the game fun and have rewards both for people who have leveled for 18 hours a day and also for those who play an hour a week and don't level at all, then you'll get rid of much of the incentive for farmers.

  3. Re:Why oppose it? by Morlark · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Developers being cocks? Sorry, I actually facepalmed when I read that. I take it you've never played an MMO? Gold selling thrives in MMOs because, at the end of the day, there is one fundamental truth that applies both in and out of game: (some) people are stupid. Gold selling has a noticeable and significant negative effect on the game. Sometimes this means they've got their bots out keeping a given zone completely barren of mobs, so that any actual players who want to do anything in the zone are unable to do so. Sometimes it means that the gold sellers flood the auction house with the items they have farmed up, meaning that any legitimate player who wants to sell some items for a bit of gold can't do so because the going rate for those items is so low that they can't turn a profit. On the flip side, the people who have bought gold now have so much money that the market price for other (non-farmable) items goes through the roof, meaning that honest players can't afford the things they want. Gold selling absolutely ruins the in-game economy, which makes the game a lot less fun for everybody, and that means the developers lose subscribers. That is why.

    In fact, in recent years, things have got even worse. As the developers get better at spotting the behaviour of the gold sellers' farming bots, the gold sellers change tactics. Instead of targeting the game, they target the players - through various trojans and keyloggers and whatnot, they compromise a players account, strip it bare of gold and items, and then sell the proceeds on to other players. Of course when the player discovers this, they immediately go crying to the devs demanding that their items and gold be restored. The dev company then has to spend god knows how much on employing extra customer support staff to deal the player's own lax account security. That is a direct cost to the dev company caused by gold sellers. The claim that the developers are being cocks by protecting the interests of both themselves and the players is laughably ignorant.

    Allow me to finish up with a little personal anecdote. An acquaintance of mine in WoW once had his account compromised by gold-sellers. I don't know how, since he's usually a fairly tech-savvy person, but everyone slips up once in a while. The gold sellers stripped his character completely clean, took everything he had, and passed it on. When he finally got his account back, and was waiting for his items to be restored, you know what his first response was? He went straight to the gold sellers and bought some gold, to cover what he had lost. Yup, he went to the very people who had stolen his (imaginary) gold, and paid them real money to get it back. And he never once made the logical connection that the people who had taken his stuff were the same people he was dealing with. The average person really is that stupid.

    It's only a minority that actually does buy gold, so you can't even claim that "players want it". But when the developers have to fight an uphill battle against both the gold sellers and that stupid minority, so that they can improve the game for those very same players, you do have to have a bit of respect for what they do.

    --
    Santa's suicide mission go!
  4. Eve solved this problem by bigmacd24 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Hey, I like CCP's solution to this, in EVE, you can buy extra months of subscription, and sell them to other players, on the market, for Gold (ISK). I play the game for free, because I have enough isk to sell to folks who want more of it. Eve's economy actually works pretty decently, dudes get alot of use out of having extra isk, they can fly bigger ships, gamble more, pay folks for whatever they want. I always suggest to my friends that they buy three months of game time when they start playing, 1 month for themselves, and 2 months to sell to the market. Everyone gets on a nice, even playing field pretty quick that way, (and it's still cheaper than starting alot of MMO's). To ramble off topic for a while, market manipulation is incredibly easy in eve, I play for free because I spend about 3 hours a week looking over trades in three regional markets. I had to put in a bit of work to get enough money to afford it, but the cash I have is still chicken scratch (barely floating a billion isk, and most of it's tied up in one thing or another)