Lose Your Amazon Account and Your Kindle Dies

Mike writes "If you buy a Kindle and some Kindle ebooks from Amazon, be careful of returning items. Amazon decided that one person had returned too many things, so they suspended his Amazon account, which meant that he could no longer buy any Kindle books, and any Kindle subscriptions he's paid for stop working. After some phone calls, Amazon granted him a one-time exception and reactivated his account again." Take this with as much salt as you'd like.

Comments

Just another reason to not support DRM

[TheLinuxSRC]

This is just another reason why DRM is not a benefit to the consumer and why consumers should *not* support DRM.

Re:Just another reason to not support DRM

[zebslash]

Why do you say he was a dick ? I quote him:

The only things I HAVE returned were some large electronics - but honestly, ONLY when there were defects or flaws in them. If it works well, I keep it. Period.

That's completely legal and fair.

Anyway, this shows once

Re:Just another reason to not support DRM

[pleappleappleap]

Indeed. I was planning on buying a Kindle (I read a LOT), but now I'm not going to. This is inexcusable, even if the complainant in the thread is in the wrong.

Re:Just another reason to not support DRM

[TheLinuxSRC]

Can you show me somewhere that the guy was being a dick? He returned some items. Apparently there is an unwritten policy at Amazon that if you return X number of high-ticket items (regardless of whether the CS rep says to do so or not) you are banned. No warning, nothing - just banned.

Regardless there is no reason his Kindle should be effectively bricked. Yes, he can use the content he has already purchased, however he can never (legally) obtain any new content for that Kindle; a "feature" designed into the Kindle by Amazon. This sounds like a fundamental problem with DRM to me. Where do we draw the line? Also, not only can he not purchase new content, he cannot even use the warranty on the Kindle should he need to. All at the whim of Amazon.

As far as karma goes, mine is excellent and I don't need it. Why don't you quit being an asshat and go read the article?

Re:Just another reason to not support DRM

[nine-times]

What are you talking about? The guy bought books for his Kindle. He *bought* them. Say what you will about, "No, this is licensing," but check Amazon's website and there's a button that says, "Buy now with 1-click". *Buy*.

So he bought these books, and now because Amazon doesn't like his behavior, they're denying him access to books that he bought. Of course this is an example of why DRM is bad. Imagine you went out to Barnes and Noble and bought physical books. Then, later, because you returned too many purchases to Barnes and Noble and they didn't like that, they went into your house and took back the books you previously purchased without giving you a refund. After complaining, they said, "Ok, we'll return these books, but just this once!"

Re:Just another reason to not support DRM

[Thelasko]

This is just another reason why DRM is not a benefit to the consumer and why consumers should *not* support DRM.

Which reminds me, anybody know the status on TechCrunch's open source tablet?

Re:Just another reason to not support DRM

[sfbanutt]

Actually, not even that's true. It's perfectly possible, and not even terribly difficult, to put non-DRM content onto a Kindle. Fictionwise will tell you how to do it, as will Baen books. Basically, losing his Amazon account just made it difficult (but not impossible) to put DRM'ed books on the Kindle. I'm not sure that's a minus..

Re:Just another reason to not support DRM

[mikec]

Not to defend Amazon, you have misstated the situation. They books he bought are still on his Kindle and still readable. He can't buy any new ones, and his subscriptions are canceled -- meaning he doesn't pay for them, and he doesn't receive them. The stuff he *bought* is all still there.

Re:Just another reason to not support DRM

[TheLinuxSRC]

Very interesting, however from Fictionwise FAQ:

I Have Seen Blog Articles On Methods That Allow DRM Mobipocket Books To Work On Kindle. Can I Use That Method On Fictionwise Secure Mobipocket eBooks?

We do not support the use of such methods to transfer Fictionwise Secure Mobipocket eBooks to Kindle. For one thing, Amazon could take steps at any time to disable such methods from working. So you might purchase a book thinking it will work on your Kindle when it does not. We have to pay the publisher as soon as you download the eBook, we can't refund you if this transfer method doesn't work.

It is also not clear whether such methods violate your Amazon Kindle terms of service, which might mean you could void your Kindle warranty by using such methods.

Our Kindle-compatible Multiformat eBooks are in unencrypted Mobipocket format and the Amazon Kindle documentation expressly allows those kinds of file to be used on the Kindle. However, the Amazon Kindle documentation specifies that encrypted Mobipocket eBooks cannot be used on the Kindle.

For these reasons, Fictionwise strongly discourages the use of any such methods, and we will provide no support for them. Fictionwise only supports our MultiFormat eBooks for use on Kindle, not our Secure (DRM) Mobipocket eBooks.

So you *can* use non-DRM'd ebooks, but there isn't a legal option for the DRM'd ebooks at Fictionwise. I suspect that has a serious affect on title selection :D All of Baen Books, on the other hand, appear to not be DRM'd.

Re:Just another reason to not support DRM

[Blue Stone]

I wonder what the Office of Fair Trading or Trading Standards would have to say about Amazon UK banning people's accounts for returning defective goods.

I know companies are free to serve people or not at their own discretion, but that right is not absolute (racial discrimination etc.).

If a company were explicitly banning a person because they were a victim of that company's repeated shipping of defective goods, I'd like to think that would be unlawful. Perhaps I'm being too idealistic.

Re:Just another reason to not support DRM

[Anonymous Coward]

What does DRM have to do with this? The previous books he had bought would still be accessible. I have wireless turned off all the time on mine, sometimes months at a time, only when I buy something from the kindle store do I turn it on. Never has a file been unavailable.

The problem he had was the account was disabled. IE: There were no files being delivered. At all. He wouldn't have gotten books, mails sent to his @kindle account or subscription. The account was disabled, ergo it couldn't be accessed.

Or in other words: DRM is not the root of his woes.

Re:Just another reason to not support DRM

[commodore64_love]

You're right - it's not a DRM problem.

It's a rental problem wherein our corporate overlords are trying to convince us we are "buying" books when it fact we are only renting them, until the corporation decides to block access to the servers (or the company goes out-of-business). Now there's nothing wrong with renting, but the overlords should be honest about it, and the rental rate should be lower than if I bought the physical book. In most cases, neither is true.

Re:Just another reason to not support DRM

[BrentH]

We don't take kindle to DRM around here!

Re:Just another reason to not support DRM

[Culture20]

Please don't mod me redundant; I feel that if someone from Amazon sees this, they need to see multiple people saying it:

I too was planning on buying a Kindle, but will never do so if my ability to use it is at the whim of someone other than myself.

Re:Just another reason to not support DRM

[witherstaff]

I agree also - I was looking forward to a Kindle as my next gadget purchase. I'm actually rather tired of physical books lately. For some reason hardcovers are not a standardized height meaning bookcases end up with a lot of wasted space. Why are they all over the place? I go on reading binges when time and work allow and it's way too easy to have a pile of books but no two are the same. Storage is a pain! I'd rather just have a good electronic reader.

I can only hope the success of the Kindle and the projects like Openmoko means an open source type will come along.

Not Entirely True

[eldavojohn]

Maybe he should have followed the link of the first reply's signature? From that site:

Myth:

If you buy a Kindle, you are locked into Amazon's Kindle store.

Truth:

There are many sources for books that can be read on the Kindle.

Some Free Sites (Public Domain / Creative Commons)

MobileRead.com (look for .mobi books you can download to your computer or download the MobiGuide and get your books via Whispernet) Feedbooks.com (books can be downloaded to your computer or if you download their Kindle Guide you can get your books via Whispernet - they even have a video on how to use the guide) Manybooks.net (when you download to your computer, look for Kindle format or Mobipocket) 1001Books (download books to your computer or directly from your Kindle browser)

Some Pay Sites

Fictionwise.com (look for .mobi books but NOT Secure Mobipocket books) BooksonBoard.com (register your Kindle's PID and you can download any .mobi from their Overdrive servers - to learn more about this see the Visual Kindle Guide wiki) Baen.com (great site for Sci-Fi books which offers free as well as low cost books)

So your Kindle is still somewhat useful. I would hope that more competition arises and Amazon removes its Kindle services from its e-book services so as to avoid a nasty inevitable anti-trust suit.

Re:Not Entirely True

[nahdude812]

In addition, you can back up your books from your Kindle, transfer the Kindle to a different account, and restore your books to it.

A right to do what?

[brunes69]

So you are saying if I buy a lawn mower from Home Depot and then I go in the next day and streak the place and get banned, they should also have the right to re-possess the lawn mower I legally purchased?

How is this any different? He bought a kindle, he bought books for it, then did something totally unrelated Amazon did not like, and they essentially remotely deactivated his device.

Re:A right to do what?

[Amazing Quantum Man]

No, because the stuff you bought at Costco will still work, even if your membership is canceled.

Re:A right to do what?

[MBGMorden]

On the third hand, if your ebooks are already on the Kindle they cannot be removed by Amazon. So they're removing the privilege of buying more from them. Oh no!

But DRM ensures that just because you have a file doesn't mean that you can use it. Depending on the scheme (I have the Kindle Software for my iPod Touch but haven't used it so I'm not really familiar with it), losing your account can make the file you purchased stop working. DRM applied to subscription music services works that way (ie, if you cancel your service the music that you downloaded might still be on your computer, but it won't play), but in those cases it was understood that it was a SUBSCRIPTION service and losing access was to be expected. In this case it appears that Amazon cut him off from using PURCHASED content. That IS an "oh no" situation.

Re:A right to do what?

[HiThere]

However note that they COULD deactivate books he had previously purchased. That means that in the future they could do it intentionally for whatever reason suited them at the time.

In the past week they have demonstrated the ability to censor a large swath of publications and now to deactivate the right to read already purchased works. I.e., they have intentionally built the capabilities to do such things.

You can think whatever you want about the particular events that caused these capabilities to become evident, but they WERE revealed. Publicly.

Perhaps these two times were accidents. Next time it might not be. Next time it might be removing the ability to either read or purchase politically inconvenient items. Or religiously inconvenient. Or commercially. Or any other reason that suited them.

Decide for yourself if you want to trust a company that has intentionally implemented such capabilities. It's up to you. But if they've built the capability don't be surprised if they use it.

Re:A right to do what?

[PopeRatzo]

As for his kindle stuff not working, that sucks, but he got them back in the end.

No. He "got them back in the end" because he was aggressive enough to make what was probably multiple phone calls, having to wait in queues and talk to "supervisors". Not all consumers will go to those lengths (nor should they have to).

As long as corporations are going to use "licenses" and "copyright" and DRM in such a punitive way, the most appropriate response is to punish any company that does so by not using their products or services. Further, I applaud all efforts to defeat DRM in all its forms.

There is a shocking level of hostility toward consumers coming from many of the most successful corporations. Unfortunately, the only way for corporations to learn is when their bottom line is affected negatively. As long as they're making money that have absolutely no incentive to treat customers decently.

Re:A right to do what?

[Nyeerrmm]

His Kindle still works too, he just couldn't buy new things from. The only real loss is at most a month's worth of subscription. Certainly not the friendliest of policies, but its quite similar to losing a CostCo membership, or being banned from going into Home Depot.

He would still be free to find non-drm third party content, whether paid or free, and load them on his own. Nothing in the summary says it will brick the device.

Re:A right to do what?

[PopeRatzo]

However note that they COULD deactivate books he had previously purchased

It also means that if the company you purchased a DRM-infected product from goes out of business, you will have a problem using the products you purchased. Ask the people who once used the "Urge" music system to buy what they thought was music they'd always be able to play. Yes, there may have been some little-known and difficult way to get your "licenses" renewed, but the people who bought those mp3s did not think they would someday have to work so hard just to keep playing them.

Buying a product with DRM is as dumb as buying a car from a company that's about to declare bankruptcy. Sure, you might be able to get it fixed in the future, but do you really want to go through all that?

Re:A right to do what?

[Profane MuthaFucka]

There must be something wrong with your reading comprehension. The guy I responded to said that the stuff you bought at Costco will still work when your membership is cancelled.

I just pointed out that not everything will work when your membership is cancelled.

The photos you stored on their servers will be deleted. You need to make your own copies.

So, it's the OPPOSITE of the point the parent posts have been making. When your membership is deleted, your stuff stops working unless you make your own copies.

Your Kindle will still read the books you already bought, even if your account is cancelled.

Re:A right to do what?

[undercanopy]

you CAN add new things, just not from amazon. One can add non-amazon content to the Kindle

Re:A right to do what?

[Nyeerrmm]

Ah, there's still a lot of FUD going around on that. You can actually plug the Kindle into a USB port and it mounts just like any other flash drive, and you can load readable formats like .mobi and .txt with no interaction with Amazon. For PDF files you'd be out of luck, but as yet, the PDF conversion was never good enough for use anyway, in my opinion.

Re:A right to do what?

[Ironica]

What use is a electronic reader if you can't add new books to read?

Honestly, I don't quite get the point either... I have a Kindle, and I have a bunch of stuff on it that didn't come from Amazon.com. Sure, it's more hassle to put things on it if you don't have a working Kindle account; you can't just pay the 10 cents each to email things directly to the device, and instead have to hook it up to the computer... but you can get legitimately free books from, say, baen.com and load them on to your heart's content. the Kindle will *read* a variety of formats, not just its own.

The most valid point the guy has is "what happened to the warranty?" Since the warranty is used by contacting Customer Service, and he no longer has that right, he can't get warranty service on his $350 electronic device, and that does suck. It could even be illegal.

But, come on, it is so NOT true that a Kindle becomes useless if you can't access the Kindle store. It's the other way around: the Kindle store is of no use if your Kindle doesn't work.

Re:A right to do what?

[Profane MuthaFucka]

And that's one reason why I think TFA writer is full of shit. The Kindle doesn't shut down just because you lose your Amazon account. You lose access to the books you have on Amazon's servers, but you should make backups.

And do you go around calling everyone you disagree with who has a funny name a troll? You must be a lot of fun to be around.

God I am fucking sick of the idiots on Slashdot today. Doesn't anyone here actually HAVE a Kindle besides me? No? Well I guess that fucking gives everyone a license to talk.

Fuck.

That rant isn't particularly directed at you, although you're included in the category of ignorant fucks who own no Kindle but like to talk.

Re:A right to do what?

[HeronBlademaster]

You can charge people with being a nuisance or loitering, but places open to the public must be open to the public with very little exception. All those signs that say "We reserve the right to refuse service..." are popular, but not only are they not legally enforceable, but they are actually illegal. [...] You must be breaking the law for a business open to the general public to refuse to serve you. Of course, as mentioned above, breaking the law can include public nuisance, and loitering.

Wow. You are so wrong my brain is melting.

A business can legally refuse service to anyone, unless the reason is race, color, religion, national origin, or disability. More information here and here. Feel free to google some more.

In short, refusing service to a customer who is breaking the terms of service is perfectly legal.

Online accounts and other devices - G1, etc.

[Kelson]

This makes me wonder what would happen with my G1 if for some reason I lost access to my Google account. (You basically can't do anything on the phone without being signed in, though you can create a new account from the phone itself.)

I suspect I could just link it to another account and re-sync contacts, calendar, etc. But then there's the question of purchased apps. Are they linked to the phone, to the cellular plan, or to the Google account? It's something I hadn't thought about before.

Re:Kind-le?

[DinDaddy]

Sw-indle?

Read through his posts...

[PrimalChrome]

He clearly states that he regularly returns big ticket items because they're 'defective'. I know a number of people that utilize this same exploit on a regular basis. They only shop at places with excellent return policies. They order big ticket items and when they realize they maxxed their CC or decide the novelty has worn off, they return them because suddenly they notice a defect. Most of the time this defect was either imaginary or simply the result of several days/weeks of playtime.

As this becomes a hit to company profits, they will have to be much more careful on returns....making it much harder on those of us with valid returns. Too bad they reinstated his account.

Re:Read through his posts...

[barik]

It's one thing to tell someone that they're no longer welcome to order anymore, but it's quite another to retroactively disable anything that they've previously purchased. That's the distinction.

Many people abuse the flexible Costco return policy. Some of these people get their memberships revoked. At no time does Costco come in and say that they can no longer use items they've already bought.

KindlePID deletion

[tepples]

register your Kindle's PID

How do you find your Kindle's PID when Amazon makes sites delete information about KindlePID?

Dont be a dumbass

[Hadlock]

If your account is flagged for returning shit, you're just dumb. Don't buy crap and then return it and expect to stay in a company's good graces for long. I think I speak for all people who ever retail when I say this to people who return more than 1 item every 6 months: Eat Shit And Die. You wouldn't abuse your friends and family like that, so why harrass stores and their employees, even if they're owned/employed by a soulless corperation. Something like 15% of items are returned (dollar amount perhaps), which significantly cuts into profits and drives up prices for everyone else. Fuck You.
 
/rant off.
 
i would kill myself before working retail again.

Re:Dont be a dumbass

[dstar]

So you clearly never shop at Fry's. I have roughly a 50% failure rate for things I buy there -- and there has been more than one case where I had to exchange something several times before giving up and asking for my money back.

I don't shop at Fry's if I have a choice anymore, but my returns didn't make _me_ a bad person.

iKindle

[janwedekind]

Any device which comes with this much DRM should be prefixed with "i".

Re:I bet the guy is a bad customer

[MozeeToby]

I believe they suspended his Amazon account because he had returned several purchases made on Amazon.com, not because he wanted to return eBooks. Since his Amazon account also serves as his Kindle account, he was then locked out of purchasing books for his Kindle.

Poor policy on their part but if you are really worried about this you could always just set up a separate account for your Kindle. If you never use it to make regular purchases I don't think you would ever have to touch it except to update your payment information when necessary.

Safety first...

[Qubit]

Because there are sharp sawblades, knives, chisels, and all kinds of other genital-unfriendlies in the Tool Department!

Re:Defective by design indeed

[MBGMorden]

BOOKS ARE CHEAP and they do not NEED an electronic delivery mechanism! I don't quite understand why on earth a product like the Kindle needs to exist.

Whats worst is that not only are books already cheap, but they're often CHEAPER in physical form than on the kindle. I was in the supermarket the other day and saw that they had Twilight as a mass market paperback. IIRC the price was $6.99 (cover - no store discount). The same darned book in eBook form, which is just a collection of bits costing many times less to reproduce than the book, is priced at $9.99. There is just something wrong with that. Plus, as a failsafe, books don't need a device that can break, or needs power, etc. Call me paranoid but with the current economic climate the world of "Mad Max" is looking like a possible eventuality, and the regular books will be useful far longer into that period than an ebook.

Amazon's intent

[tepples]

Like takedown notices have ever stopped information from getting out, before..

But Amazon's attempt to cover up KindlePID does signal Amazon's intent that owners of Kindle devices not buy DRM works from other providers.

E-books aren't all they're cracked up to be

[kheldan]

If you're talking about periodicals or school textbooks then e-book readers make sense to me, but if you're purchasing a piece of literature that you're going to keep beyond next week, then I think e-books are more trouble than they're worth, especially if someone can arbitrarily decide that you shouldn't be allowed access to something you've already paid for, regardless of whether the person mentioned "should have made backup copies". I'd feel less strongly about this if there was no DRM involved, but as is, I say "no way".

Well

[pugugly]

My desire for a Kindle just dropped from "It's really cool and I am going to eventually have one!" to zero.

The main reason I have not cared for e-books is that I want ownership - I want to keep my books. Until now, I assumed I would with a Kindle, obviously not.

Pug

Bad Slashdot Summary

[brit74]

I'm unclear how the existence of non-existence of DRM on the Kindle makes any difference in this case. He can't buy from the Amazon store. Okay. If Amazon only sold un-DRMed ebooks, then he still wouldn't be able to buy from the store. Further, the Kindle doesn't just display books purchased from Amazon. Any non-DRM ebook can be read on the Kindle. Further, he says that he can still read his purchased books on his Kindle. The main thing I dislike about the situation is the fact that he can't move his DRMed books off of the Kindle (say, in a few years when he wants a new ebook reader).

From the slashdot summary: "and any Kindle subscriptions he's paid for stop working." Where does it say that in the article? (Or is the Slashdot submitter's dislike of DRM causing him to interpret this as another "bad DRM" story?)

Re:Is there DRM on your own pictures?

[Profane MuthaFucka]

1. The Kindle books will still work if you make your own backups.

2. The books on my Kindle do not have any DRM at all.

So, you don't have any point.

DRM == Theft

[LuYu]

After reading that post and subsequent comments including the Amazon letter he received, there is no question in my mind: Amazon is guilty of theft.

The facts are these: He returned some items (that were not books or e-books) and had his account banned. Along with his purchase account, his Kindle account was also banned. If that meant he could continue using the books he already had, fine. But because of DRM, he cannot access the books he already purchased!

Ian says:

3) I am now unable to access archived copies of the Kindle books I've purchased legally, and have no other way to legally purchase DRM'ed books on the device.

4) I also have no access to videos I have purchased from Amazon.

By making legitimately purchased information unavailable to him, Amazon is stealing (this is traditional theft -- taking something away from someone without the person's permission). If you do not agree with this, consider this scenario: Barnes & Noble is dissatisfied with your behaviour as a customer, so they ban you from all of their stores. And then they come to your house and take away all the books in your library because they claim you no longer have a right to access them.

Be very afraid of the cloud. Companies will be able to do anything they want with your information.