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NSA Overstepped the Law On Wiretaps

Hugh Pickens writes "The NY Times reports that legal and operational problems surrounding the NSA's surveillance activities have come under scrutiny from the Obama administration, Congressional intelligence committees, and a secret national security court, and that the NSA had been engaged in 'overcollection' of domestic communications of Americans. The practice has been described as significant and systemic, although one official said it was believed to have been unintentional. The Justice Department has acknowledged that there had been problems with the NSA surveillance operation, but said they had been resolved. The Office of the Director of National Intelligence, which oversees the intelligence community, did not address specific aspects of the surveillance problems, but said in a statement that 'when inadvertent mistakes are made, we take it very seriously and work immediately to correct them.' The intelligence officials said the problems had grown out of changes enacted by Congress last July to the law that regulates the government's wiretapping powers, as well as the challenges posed by enacting a new framework for collecting intelligence on terrorism and spying suspects. Joe Klein at Time Magazine says the bad news is that 'the NSA apparently has been overstepping the law,' but the good news is that 'one of the safeguards in the [FISA Reform] law is a review procedure that seems to have the ability to catch the NSA when it's overstepping — and that the illegal activities have been exposed, and quickly.'"

13 of 164 comments (clear)

  1. when I overstep the law by bugs2squash · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I wind up in trouble. I hope the NSA does too

    --
    Nullius in verba
    1. Re:when I overstep the law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Nonsense! When a report about an agency of the government doing something illegal comes out, it is done not so that anyone doing anything illegal gets punished for it. Rather, it exists so that Congress can gently guide the NSA to stay inside the lines like a parent holding a retarded child's hand, trying to show them the proper way to color.

    2. Re:when I overstep the law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Excuse me Mr. ISP, we need to get a tap on your network."
      ''Do you have a warrant?''
      "Yes."
      ''May I see the warrant?''
      "No, it's privileged."
      ''Ok, can you point me to a judge that authorized this?''
      "No, it's privileged."

      You don't see a problem with this? How about taken with the fact that law enforcement is legally allowed to lie in the course of their duties?

    3. Re:when I overstep the law by grcumb · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When a parent tells a child to commit a crime there isn't really a point to punish the kid. The government asked them to do something. Even if it is illegal the boss of the country asked them. It would be silly for the boss to then punish the kid for doing as told.

      Tell that to the German officers who were executed for crimes against humanity, despite pleading their innocence on exactly these grounds.

      This plea has since become known as the Nuremberg Defence. To my mind, it's no more compelling today than it was over 60 years ago, when we rejected it out of hand.

      In order for a democracy to remain healthy, it requires the participation of its citizens. This means more than just occasionally visiting a polling station. It means that, from time to time, we will be asked to challenge, in very practical terms, the validity of the assumptions to which we all adhere.

      I do not for a second believe that the NSA management and staff involved in this operation were not acutely aware that they were circumventing the law. If they knowingly broke the law, then they should be prepared to face the consequences.

      Opposing the System usually comes with a price. I don't doubt that refusing to carry out orders would be a, uh, career-limiting decision. But those who willingly participate in an immoral, unethical and illegal system should face the consequences of their choice as well.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    4. Re:when I overstep the law by camperdave · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Even if it is illegal the boss of the country asked them.

      It doesn't matter who asked them. Illegal is illegal. SOMEONE broke the law. Someone made the moral/ethical decision to break the law. That person was not a kid, and should be held accountable. Also, asking someone to break the law for you is conspiracy. The boss of the country should also be held accountable. It's about time we started throwing Presidents and Prime Ministers in jail.

      Oh, and routers, cars, and tube carrying trucks do not have moral/ethical decision making capabilities. They cannot be held accountable for the actions of their users or abusers.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  2. In sufficient incentives by SpecBear · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "When inadvertent mistakes are made, we take it very seriously and work immediately to correct them."

    If such systemic negligence resulted in loss of employment, fines, and/or quality time in a federal PMITA prison, then perhaps they would take it seriously and make sure it didn't fucking happen in the first place.

    1. Re:In sufficient incentives by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Come on now, when have draconian punishments ever stopped people from committing crimes, let alone making mistakes?

      The big difference is that most people commit crimes for their personal benefit.
      These guys are commiting crimes under some bogus rubric of protecting the country.
      At best their only personal benefit is a reduction of their own time spent on the project (for which they get paid for either way).

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  3. Newspeak framing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just one example of newspeak framing:

    "The practice has been described as significant and systemic, although one official said it was believed to have been unintentional."

    "one official" -- makes the following sound like an "official" statement without anyone putting their name on the line. Who is the official?

    "said it was believed to be" -- implies that others agree and that this is the general belief. Governmentsprech for "some people say."

    Just reading this frames the subject, even if you know the announcement is full of s***. And framing is 90% of the battle. (Google George Lakoff on that one)

  4. Re:Obama administration by rpillala · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think the difference here is what you'd call a dragnet. The Obama position (as I understood it) is that wiretapping individuals without a warrant is acceptable under certain circumstances. Gathering communication indiscriminately is different and objectionable.

    Personally I like the way FISA was set up in 1978 and feel that 72 hours to obtain a retroactive warrant from a secret classified court is sufficient latitude for intelligence gathering in the "war on terror." Eliminating oversight by the judicial branch completely is totalitarian.

    --
    When the axe came to the forest, the trees said, "Look out - the handle was once one of us."
  5. This is what AP was talking about by TinBromide · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I know that slashdot believes that information should be free. (And AP was wrong in accusing google because IIRC, Google does indeed license AP material from AP and they do pay AP money), but this is precisely the kind of story that you wouldn't get from bloggers or non-paid (free) journalism.

    I wonder how much money NY Times paid for this story? $500k, $1m? So, remember, I will be modded down for this, but as you rail against the government for over-stomping our rights, this was the work of a paid Journalist or paid Team of Journalists who used their Journalism Major to bring home a paltry paycheck (well, paltry for those of us in the IT or engineering industry).

    Stories like these make me hope that the newspaper industry finds a way to make money, because reporting like this takes money, but in a rare move by Big Content, that charged money benefits us all. (Unlike the latest Britney Spears release or Hollywood Movie).

    --
    Is it sad that I am more likely to recognize you and your posts by your sig than your name or UID?
  6. Re:Obama administration by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 4, Insightful

    equally naive to think the president has any POWER over the 3letter orgs.

    come on. you think a genie that powerful (the secret services, of which there are more than we can even know about) orgs will simply 'listen' to some guy who is here for what, 4 years?

    they outlast presidents. our system is now ruled by a small group and those you see on TV are the figureheads.

    this is not 18th century america. we have changed, radically, from what our actual roots were.

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    --
    "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
  7. Re:Obama administration by camperdave · · Score: 4, Insightful

    retroactive warrant? a secret classified court?

    You accept that? These things should strike terror in your bones and chill your very soul, yet you accept them?

    --
    When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  8. Re:Good thing the gov't is unaccountable by camperdave · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Douglas Adams said it best: The president's job is not to wield power but to draw attention away from it.

    --
    When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!