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Handmade vs. Commercially Produced Ethernet Cables

An anonymous reader writes "We have a T1 line coming into our satellite office and we rely fairly heavily on it to transfer large amounts of data over a VPN to the head office across the country. Recently, we decided to upgrade to a 20 Mbit line. Being the lone IT guy here, it fell on me to run cable from the ISP's box to our server room so I went out and bought a spool of Cat6. I mentioned the purchase and the plan to run the cable myself to my boss in head office and in an emailed response he stated that it's next to impossible to create quality cable (ie: cable that will pass a Time Domain Reflectometer test) by hand without expensive dies, special Ethernet jacks and special cable. He even went so far as to say that handmade cable couldn't compare to even the cheapest Belkin cables. I've never once ran into a problem with handmade patch cables. Do you create your own cable or do you bite the bullet and buy it from some place?"

137 of 837 comments (clear)

  1. How much is your time worth by linzeal · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While it may be cost effective to crimp and cut your own cable when you are making less than 20 dollars an hour once you are making 20 dollar+ just buy it.

    1. Re:How much is your time worth by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 4, Informative

      While it may be cost effective to crimp and cut your own cable when you are making less than 20 dollars an hour once you are making 20 dollar+ just buy it.

      I promise you I can make more than $20 worth of test-worthy cables in one hour.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    2. Re:How much is your time worth by jcr · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I promise you I can make more than $20 worth of test-worthy cables in one hour.

      I'll second that. I make my own cables when I want a specific length, rather than having the extra wire coiled up in a cable tie.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    3. Re:How much is your time worth by Philip+K+Dickhead · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yeah,

      But the occasional dud-job does pass by. Then you've got this thing spraying ether all over the walls, the floors, and what-have-you.

      Try explaining that one, passing the hallway, with ether dripping from the front of one''s trousers. "It's my handworked cable, you see..." you might mumble to colleagues, to their dubious glances.

      I know a lot of you came up while 10 MbPS was standard. The drizzling or atomizing was even comforting - almost acceptable in Cat5. Now, 100 MbPS goes off like a water-cannon. With Gig arriving to the desktop and commodity rack, I don't know if "grow-your-own" is advice that one may any longer advocate with a dry lap or chin!

      --
      "Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
    4. Re:How much is your time worth by Z00L00K · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It depends on the situation and the reason for the cable.

      Sometimes there are restrictions for routing the cable that makes a prefabricated cable unusable.

      And you may sometimes run into problems with a handmade cable, but often it does work just fine. If you get problems - just remake one contact at a time. If you have a decently modern intelligent switch you can also monitor the port for data errors, and if you don't have any errors it's good enough.

      As for cabling quality - all the outlets in buildings are usually contacted by the cable jocks from the installation company and they do a simple test and then moves on to the next. I doubt that the quality from a hand made cable and those outlets are much different.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    5. Re:How much is your time worth by MikeBabcock · · Score: 2, Informative

      I never ever make my own cables for long-term PC connection patch cables, only for patch panelswitch connections and cross-overs.

      I wired all of my own in-wall cabling at home, but I pay others to do it for work (just for time reasons).

      I always use packaged stranded copper patch cables for connecting PCs to wall jacks though, as they're more flexible and resilient to breakage when twisted or bent repeatedly. Solid core cables will snap or degrade rapidly if bent repeatedly or at sharp angles.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    6. Re:How much is your time worth by nobodylocalhost · · Score: 3, Funny

      um... the commercially cut cables are made of certain length for a reason. If you've taken physics especially emf harmonics, you'd know wanting a specific length without considering harmonics is all kinds of bad because it may result in emi emission, or even worse, cross talk. This happens to twisted pair as well as coaxial due to energy absorption of the copper cable themselves (part of the energy in the inner cable gets converted to heat for coax and heat conversion not equalizing for twisted pair, emf will almost never be 0 as they are in theory).

      --
      Where is the "Ignorant" mod tag?
    7. Re:How much is your time worth by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 5, Funny

      audio grade Ethernet cables

      Yeah, I have those. I keep it next to my hydrogen grade garden hose, and my lava grade plumbing.

    8. Re:How much is your time worth by conspirator57 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      keep drinking the koolaid, I think you can do better at repeating the Belkin marketing FUD than that.

      --
      "If still these truths be held to be
      Self evident."
      -Edna St. Vincent Millay
    9. Re:How much is your time worth by m0nkyman · · Score: 3, Funny

      Get off my lawn.

      Damned kids today.

      --
      ~ a low user id is no indication I have a clue what I'm talking about.
    10. Re:How much is your time worth by zappepcs · · Score: 4, Insightful

      time out! How does making one cable run constitute reason for determining ROI on making cables based on cables per hour etc?

      There are some of us who can whip out a standard 15ft Cat5 cable in about twice the time it takes to unwrap a commercially purchased cable. If you need custom sized cables, it's far easier and cheaper except for very small number of situations. If you have one cable run to do and the parts available, it makes no sense to go buy one. It's not like you're going to run out and get a 39 meter Cat6 cable at lunch time in the Mall.

      Now, if you need 50 of them? perhaps a different story, but same story goes when you need 5000 of them. Savings get bigger with bulk. In this case, it was for a single cable. My suspicion is that his boss has never actually seen a well made cable created in front of his eyes. Remember grasshopper, all great Samurai swords were made by hand, not a machine with expensive dies.

      Whatever happened to quality custom workmanship? It's almost as if people expect that it can't be done anymore? WTF?

    11. Re:How much is your time worth by tweek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It does when the provider uses a home-made cable as justification for line errors. Stranger things have happened.

      --
      "Fighting the underpants gnomes since 1998!" "Bruce Schneier knows the state of schroedinger's cat"
    12. Re:How much is your time worth by ACorvus · · Score: 5, Informative

      I can't agree with this - if the termination of a transmission line is correct at each end, then the length has no matter at all for any frequency (in theory, not accounting for increasing losses with frequency, but then there's a reason for length restrictions in the CatX/Ethernet standards).

      If you're talking about a *tuned* line (eg a stub or a tuned antenna feeder), then length is important. But we're not. If you've got problems with harmonics or matching and reflections then your ethernet cards are probably bottom-shelf knock-offs.

      The problem with premade-lenght cables is you're going to run into tangles if many changes are made, and are going to end up coiling. Make that coil too tight and you're going to cause crosstalk. A custom job with all cables neatly following defined routes with no coils, twists or kinks is going to make life easier in the long term.

      --
      -- Sig Sig Sputnik
    13. Re:How much is your time worth by thebes · · Score: 5, Funny

      Damn, my mod points expired.

      As another EE (who does all their work at about 3GHz), I must say you need to be modded to oblivion for that comment.

      Please, just stop.

    14. Re:How much is your time worth by gambino21 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Why is this modded interesting? I thought the parent was trying to be funny. Somehow I doubt EMF harmonics has anything to do with the nice round values like 6 and 10 ft, that are commonly found at compusa, best buy, etc

    15. Re:How much is your time worth by Forge · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There are 3 types of Ethernet cable.

      1. Amateur cable. These are done just any old way as long as the colors match at both ends. The pairs don't even have to be twisted for it to work over very short distances (2 to 6 feet) at 1GB.

      2. Professional Cable. All the pinouts done properly according to whichever standard you are working with, by someone who knows what he is doing.

      3. Factory cables. Here is the dirty secret. Some of these are done by robots and some are just professional cables. There is no way for you to tell which is which.

      Now to your specific problem. If your boss insists on paying $300 for $20 worth of cable just to satisfy his own misguided notions of quality, you as the highered help just have to accept his decision and go cry into your beer.

      Or better yet. Smile. they had no intention of using the money you would have saved to enhance your salary.

      --
      --= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
    16. Re:How much is your time worth by camperdave · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Set up a dummy company, and get them to sell you the $300 cables for $250. Then crimp the cables and sell them to yourself. You pocket $250 less materials, the boss gets his "professionally made" cables, and everybody is happy.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    17. Re:How much is your time worth by postbigbang · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Uh, what part of unshielded twisted pair don't you understand? The whole idea of the twists assuages any reasonable amount of both reception and transmission externally. Modern endpoint tranceivers are really good at signal to noise problems; you can usually make cables quite a bit longer than the IEEE specs call for with total impunity. And Cat6 isn't necessary, either, just quality Cat5/5e is fine.

      The only place where fast transmission cables have problem with Ethernet is at the connectors. Crosstalk there, and ONLY THERE, can be a problem unless you do something pretty unnatural to the cable. RJ-45s simpily suck because of the parallel tines. Crimp according to directions. Takes about 30sec a side. If you're worried, shoot a TDR down the line. Fluke and others make some pretty cheapo testers, or bug a cable guy to test it for you. This is not rocket science. Don't wimp out and have someone else do it. Buy quality connectors and cable, and just do it. Get the color code, follow it, and move on.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    18. Re:How much is your time worth by Glonoinha · · Score: 5, Informative

      Orange and white, Orange. Green and White, Blue. Blue and White, Green. Brown and White, Brown.

      Use pieces (cable, plugs, jacks) certified for the speed you want to carry.

      Once you get those two down, understand not to untwist more of the cable than absolutely necessary to get it into the connector, get it correctly into the cable, and get a good solid crimp on it - and TEST IT after you crimp both ends - odds are it's more than sufficient to carry as much GigE traffic as you care to move.

      Once you have a stock of pieces on the shelf, it's WAY more cost effective from an employers perspective to make a single cable than to sit down, fill out a purchase order, have that purchase order pass through several hands during processing, follow up with the paper order, wait a week to have that single cable shipped to you. ESPECIALLY if that cable is a statistical anomaly and needs to be replaced.

      If you're wiring a patch panel for the first time, however, order a hundred or so cables of various length and save yourself the hassle.

      --
      Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
    19. Re:How much is your time worth by pallmall1 · · Score: 3, Informative

      ...if the termination of a transmission line is correct at each end, then the length has no matter at all for any frequency (in theory...

      Here's a link to a page explaining the reasons for this.

      --
      3 things about computers: they're alive, they're self-aware, and they hate your guts.
    20. Re:How much is your time worth by 0xygen · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not quite sure how talking about the characteristics of UTP regarding reception of external noise relates to standing waves on CAT5 cables?

      I was just pointing out to the AC above that UTP cables do have different behaviour as you change the length. If you fancy a fun experiment, get a fast enough scope, and some 100M Ethernet kit and see what happens as you change the length of the cable by small increments relative to the wavelength (100MHz = 3m).

      I'm well aware of how to crimp CAT5 and how UTP works though, thanks all the same.

    21. Re:How much is your time worth by mrops · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I second that.

      Drive to Best Buy: 15 Min
      Time to purchase: 10 Min
      Drive back home: 15 Min
      Cost of cable: $45 (ball park)

      vs

      Pull cable to desired length: 30 seconds
      Crimp end 1: 1 min
      Crimp end 2: 1 min
      Cost of raw material: $5 (ball park)

      So Unless you make about 40$ in 2 min i.e. 1200$ an hour, its better to crimp your own.

    22. Re:How much is your time worth by thsths · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >Welcome to the real world, where standing waves on transmission lines do exist, and you can choose lengths carefully based on the frequency going down it.

      That may be true for RF, but the whole point of communication is that you get more than a single frequency - a frequency spectrum. So matching your cable length is no good for Ethernet.

      In practice, there are hardly issues with standing waves, because the cable is unidirectional. So two reflections have to occur, and there is additional damping in the cable. So unless your impedance is way off, you should be fine. Even a 10% mismatch is perfectly harmless.

    23. Re:How much is your time worth by afidel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sorry but it only takes one bad handmade cable to blow every penny you saved about 1000x over. The only time I use anything that's not factory cut is IDF->cube runs and those are done by professional installers who still have a couple percent runs that need to be reterminated after the certification team goes through and finds the runs that don't meet spec. On top of that the blade style plugs that DIY'ers use are basically guaranteed to work loose over time causing an eventual fault that is hard to diagnose because it comes and goes as the cable moves around. All in all my real world experience shows it just isn't worth the hassle for a few dollars a cable. I wouldn't advocate paying $20 per patch cable but buying decent factory made cables just makes sense.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    24. Re:How much is your time worth by Richard_J_N · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But ethernet is a broadband signal with a huge range of frequencies. You might optimise out one class of standing wave, only to bring in another. Also, the 100m length restriction isn't really to do with loss increasing wrt frequency; it's a restriction on the time of flight of a pulse. If you're trying to prevent collisions, then the time-of-flight cannot be too long, otherwise the response speed of the switches at either end is limited. (USB has a 5m restriction for the same reason).

    25. Re:How much is your time worth by jrumney · · Score: 4, Funny

      So, you would want to have cables that were some integer (or half-integer?) multiple of your wavelength to take care of harmonics, right?

      No, you want to avoid those integer (or half) multiples of your wavelength to avoid setting up standing waves due to reflections in the cable. So go and trim a couple of picometers off those cables you just built and you'll be good to go.

    26. Re:How much is your time worth by MarkGriz · · Score: 4, Funny

      "If you've taken physics especially emf harmonics, you'd know wanting a specific length without considering harmonics is all kinds of bad because it may result in emi emission,"

      Let me guess... you work for Monster Cable, in marketing perhaps?

      --
      Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
    27. Re:How much is your time worth by Gonoff · · Score: 5, Funny

      I don't see anything 'round' about your distances of 1.8288222384784 and 3.0480370641307 metres.

      --
      I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
    28. Re:How much is your time worth by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Funny

      Here's a better link.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    29. Re:How much is your time worth by postbigbang · · Score: 3, Informative

      You miss the point.

      The domain is successful Ethernet via the TIA TSB specs using the IEEE recommendations for connectivity with the signaling method employed. Good signal, no weird phase shifts or nullings, and no discriminator problems (e.g. via NEXT).

      Standing waves are inevitable in non-DC cable connectivity and are a red herring unless propagation effects signal discrimination, or unwittingly becomes an antenna for other problems. In my experience (50K+ end point terminations), it's not been a problem. With a few discrete components, I can make any Ethernet cable into a wicked antenna. But the question would be: why would I do that? Standing or sitting waves (pun intended) may change ground-level, but that's when STP or 'screened' cabling is an alternative. If you need shielding because of ground-based level shift, use fiber. In fact, fiber is just about as easy to terminate as UTP these days.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    30. Re:How much is your time worth by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 4, Funny

      See, this is exactly why I adore /. Name one other popular site where you'd get ten bites on a troll that 99% of the population doesn't even understand.

      Right down to the Where is the "Ignorant" mod tag? signature. 10/10 for you, sir.

    31. Re:How much is your time worth by scubamage · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's a fib. Cables over 100m are verboten.

    32. Re:How much is your time worth by Bob-taro · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The wavelength of the high frequency waves your generating in the cable is going to be on the order of ... 10^-12m (I don't have a calculator in front of me, I might be off by some orders of magnitude). So, you would want to have cables that were some integer (or half-integer?) multiple of your wavelength to take care of harmonics, right? How the hell can you do that on a 20m cable?

      I only have a B.S. in Physics, but I have to question your wavelength calculation. The waves travel at nearly c, so a 1GHz wave would then have a wavelength of nearly 30 cm, wouldn't it? Still, I agree in that the wavelength is small enough that cable length shouldn't matter unless it's a very short run. Also, for a CONNECTED cable, I have to wonder how much signal reflection you're going to see.

      --
      Prov 9:8 Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you.
    33. Re:How much is your time worth by KillerBob · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Strictly speaking, 100m is a fuzzy limit. More of a rule of thumb than anything, and largely due to signal degradation and reduction causing you to leech bandwidth. It's true that high bandwidth connections are better over short distances, and it's true that you're better off running switches every so often to repeat/rebroadcast the signal, but when modern computers are coming with gigabit ethernet cards soldered onto the motherboard (and it's nearly impossible to find a mainstream mobo that doesn't have one), you can quite easily get away with installing long runs of > 100m without the users noticing a significant loss of quality. It'll still be there, but they're getting so much bandwidth that they probably won't care if they lose 15% of it.

      Back when the fastest you could get was 10mbit, and even before then when you were looking at 1mbit connections, it was a little more important to keep the runs short.

      All that said, you're still better off with a switch to repeat the signal every so often. But you might not have the budget for it.

      --
      If you believe everything you read, you'd better not read. - Japanese proverb
    34. Re:How much is your time worth by Dare+nMc · · Score: 2, Informative

      I do agree with 100% certainty your experiment would prove you correct. Assuming you leave out one critical item, the 100 Ohm termination resistor that the switch adds to each end of the CAT5 cable to minimize reflections. Add the resistor in, and your experiment would then require $100,000+ equipment to find the proverbial meaningless needle in a haystack.

    35. Re:How much is your time worth by inKubus · · Score: 2, Informative

      I've gotten a lot of CAT6 cables from monoprice.com and they are cheaper and better than I could make myself. They are seriously the cheapest place I have ever seen by a long long margin.

      --
      Cool! Amazing Toys.
    36. Re:How much is your time worth by Aceticon · · Score: 5, Funny

      Mod parent up!

      I'm an EE (non-practicing) and he's right. This is even worse with twisted pair 'cause the EM emissions come out all twisted and curvy and can cause serious interference with other cables.

      It's also important to always cut your cable in multiples of 30 cm if you're going to use Gigabyte Ethernet to make sure your wave always gets to the other side in phase - you don't want a phase mismatch to happen.

      Don't forget to terminate everything - i can tell you that the actual speed of a cable where one of the sides is neither connected to anything nor properly terminated is ZERO bps.

      Last but not least, always make sure that both sides of the connection send equal amounts of data so that the cable doesn't get a transmission fatigue problem due to the electrons always going in the same direction.

      Here you have it, the secrets of professional cable making and usage at your fingertips: don't waste them!!!

    37. Re:How much is your time worth by wvmarle · · Score: 4, Funny

      That is exactly what any self-respecting BOFH would do. Except that he would find a way to have the boss pay for the materials as well. Double.

    38. Re:How much is your time worth by daveywest · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you're wiring a patch panel for the first time, however, order a hundred or so cables of various length and save yourself the hassle.

      ... or hire an unpaid summer intern from a local high school who wants some experience in the IT biz. Lets be honest here. Its people can't find jobs right now, and if the kids is even remotely interested in IT, he will choose pulling cable through your dusty attic over flipping burgers any day.

    39. Re:How much is your time worth by thczv · · Score: 3, Informative

      The rule of thumb I use: After you cram each wire into the connector, if you can't see light glint off the cut end of each wire when looking through the end of the connector, they aren't in right. Looking at the sides or the top or bottom of the connector won't do.

    40. Re:How much is your time worth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      There is a minimum length, and a maximum length, and you are WELL advised to not screw that up when doing Gigabit Ethernet (and you'd need to be insane to do it to 10G). Especially when doing borderline stuff like gig-e over cat5e.

      The problems with the lenghts are related to the minimum and maximum delays expected by the NIC. It gets especially important when you have more than one signal path (gig-e uses four, with reflected signal cancelation to use them bidirectionally), it is not just SNR or cross-talk that matters. Remember that the length of the four twisted pairs are NOT the same, because the twisting is NOT perfect, so even if the NIC can deal with the maximum delay for the group, it will NOT like if the length difference becomes expressive enough to exceed the maximum jitter allowed inside the group.

      Yes, gigabit ethernet can work over cat5e in some cases, but here where I work, we have seen it fail more often than not, especially on the extra expensive, extra-crappy stuff IBM uses on their p-Series servers. How well the NIC will deal with crappage is also important, and just because it is coping, doesn't mean it is not doing a lot of error correction and retransmits.

      Gigabit ethernet certainly doesn't do as well in cat5e as in cat6. Unless your cat5e is actually exceeds (for the better) the cat5e specs a lot, which is _common_ if you use top-quality cabling. And exceeding the maximum length is just stupid, get a pair of media converters and go over fiber if you are too cheap to have proper optical ports...

    41. Re:How much is your time worth by the_B0fh · · Score: 5, Funny
    42. Re:How much is your time worth by ProfessionalCookie · · Score: 3, Informative

      Hint: The injection molded ones are made by robots.

    43. Re:How much is your time worth by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The real acid test would be to get one of these TDR units, buy 10 cables from each of two or three reputable companies and compare it to the results from 10 cables done in-house.

      All this talk without an objective stress test is pretty pointless.

    44. Re:How much is your time worth by shogun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But are they exactly the right length to pull from A to B, or do you have some coiled up uglies?

      A forward thinking IT professional knows to leave some slack in the cables, otherwise plate tectonics makes fools of us all.

    45. Re:How much is your time worth by Chabo · · Score: 3, Informative

      Gigabit Ethernet all but eliminates half-duplex (it's technically in the standard, but nobody implements it properly, and autonegotiation is required), so collisions are no longer a concern.

      The length restriction is still in the standard, but most of the time it will still establish a link at 110 meters of Cat5, let alone Cat5e or Cat6.

      --
      Convert FLACs to a portable format with FlacSquisher
    46. Re:How much is your time worth by rcw-home · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you're trying to prevent collisions, then the time-of-flight cannot be too long

      Ethernet networks are increasingly 100% full-duplex. Such a network can't have collisions.

    47. Re:How much is your time worth by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Informative

      Strictly speaking, 100m is a fuzzy limit.

      It's a hard limit for half-duplex. The CD part of the CSMA/CD Ethernet standard can't wait indefinitly. So they picked numbers that were just longer than the standard. Back in the old days, they would actually let you run fiber at half-duplex. I was working on an old 3-Com network that was set up by the lowest bidder. They had copper (full duplex) running at 200+ meters, but the fiber they had laid (before the copper, they had to retrofit the copper because the fiber didn't work) would fail because it would sense collisions when there weren't any and retransmit until it collapsed. One quick setting to "full" and they went from 10 Mbps copper to 100 Mbps fiber and things magically got better. So yes, the distances as far as signal level and quality are fuzzy, but if you run half-duplex (not that anyone does anymore), there is a hard limit just past. And no, I don't remember the number. Back then, I looked up the spec and calculated it by hand, but I don't remember it and figure someone has it on a web page you could find if you were interested.

    48. Re:How much is your time worth by OolimPhon · · Score: 3, Funny

      We all put our pants on one leg at a time... Maybe use Heat-shrink tubing for more ruggedness (if required) but that's it.

      You put heatshrink tubing on your legs? Where the fuck do you work that you need to do that?

    49. Re:How much is your time worth by greenreaper · · Score: 2, Funny

      So what is it that you have against robots, anyway?

    50. Re:How much is your time worth by seanadams.com · · Score: 2, Informative

      But ethernet is a broadband signal with a huge range of frequencies.

      No it's not. Ethernet is baseband (manchester coding). It needs very high frequencies to ensure a fast slew rate, but it is not broadband.

      The hard limit on length applies only to a given shared segment or collision domain. For switched full duplex, there is no collision domain, so the only limit is signal integrity. 100M is a safe rule of thumb for copper, but with fiber you can go several km.

    51. Re:How much is your time worth by MonkeyClicker · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A guy in my company did exactly this. He lost his job, was sued, and sent to jail. It is a bad idea.

    52. Re:How much is your time worth by russotto · · Score: 2, Informative

      100-Base TX Ethernet runs (physically) at 31.25Mhz, not 100Mhz.

    53. Re:How much is your time worth by adolf · · Score: 4, Interesting

      My opinion is a little different: Don't build them one at a time. And don't buy them one at a time, either.

      Just pick up a bunch of different lengths of pre-terminated cable from the good folks at deep-surplus.com. Buy a bunch of 1-foot cables, along with some 3-foot cables. 5-foot cables. 7-foot cables. 12-foot cables. So on, so forth. Then, when you need a cable of a given length, you've (gasp!) already got one!

      They're easy to use, too! Just reach up on the shelf, and get one! Way faster than finding the strippers, the cutters, the crimpers, the box of ends, and the box of wire... And then you've still got to cut, strip, sort, cut, insert, and crimp the shit together, before doing the same thing on the other end.

      Feh.

      They cables from deep-surplus cheap, they're Chinese, they're durable, consistent[1], and I have never had a bad cable after years of doing this whenever possible. Plus, every order comes with a bag of Skittles.

      The trick to making this economical and time-efficient is to put it all on one PO.

      [1]: Speaking of consistency: I do have the occasional cable that I make myself go wonky, in applications where prefab cabling doesn't apply, like UV-rated Cat5 up a radio tower. This, despite using a good crimper with a good die, and high-quality ends which are made specifically for the wire in question, and a lot of practice to develop decent workmanship. The Chinese cables are consistently more consistent, and always work.

    54. Re:How much is your time worth by kiyoshigawa · · Score: 5, Funny

      Orange and white, Orange. Green and White, Blue. Blue and White, Green. Brown and White, Brown.

      Just Remember: OverWeight Olga Gives Willingly, But Betty White Gives Bitchin'-Wild Blowjobs.

      --
      So sayeth Tim.
    55. Re:How much is your time worth by bughunter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sorry but it only takes one bad handmade cable to blow every penny you saved about 1000x over.

      And I believe this is the principle on which the submitter's boss operates.

      Sure, you can save a lot of money custom fitting and testing every cable, but someone, somewhere is going to be late for lunch, or thinking about their hot date the night before, or busy socializing while they work, and forget to test... or overlook a bad test result, or depending on your karma, even intentionally sabotage a connection.

      And while it's aesthetic to have custom-fitted and dressed cables, it's not necessary. In fact, having a meter or two of extra cable can save you some major headaches down the line when you need to alter the installation somehow. And if you're right on the bleeding edge of cable length such that an extra few meters is going to limit your performance, then you're either using the wrong cable, or the wrong protocol.

      The bigger your installation, the more nines of reliability you need and connectors are the place where shit goes bad most often, so that's the easiest place to apply money to improve reliability. It's worth it to pay more for the better reliability that automated production, both lot tested and unit acceptance tested, will give you. If you're in a small company or a mom-and-pop-shop, then handmaking all your cables isn't a problem. But if you're in a large-staff or large-volume facility, then buy as much as you can, don't handcraft it.

      Finally, when you compare the cost of the factory cable vs. professional-crafted, don't leave out the opportunity cost of the work that your professional is NOT otherwise doing while he's doing a job a robot could do. And realize that you're assuming that a supervisor is NEVER going to say "we need that professional to go do something else... I'll give the tedious job that robots can do to the chronically-stoned intern."

      --
      I can see the fnords!
    56. Re:How much is your time worth by wiredlogic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It is really just common sense to leave some slack in the cable so the next guy who comes along and has to move things around doesn't end up burning you in effigy.

      --
      I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    57. Re:How much is your time worth by jemenake · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And here's another tip when making several cables at once...

      Make one long cable of the total length of all of the cables you want, and terminate the two ends and test the cable. Then, you know those two ends are good. Then, for your first "finished" cable, snip off the length you want, and terminate the snipped end. Then, test the cable. If it fails, you know which end needs fixing.

      Then, with the remaining slightly-less-long cable, terminate the snipped end of that, and test. Then, snip off the next length you need, etc...

      I used to just pull off the length I needed from a spool, crimp the two ends, and test. But, if the cable failed the test, and I couldn't see where the problem was, I'd have to flip a coin to decide which end to re-do first. The above method avoids the coin flip. You'll know which end you have to re-do.

    58. Re:How much is your time worth by couchslug · · Score: 2, Informative

      FWIW when doing comm/nav maintenance on (rather expensive) Air Force aircraft the harnesses, coax, and other connections are almost all hand-crimped. Been there, done that since a TDR weighed about 60 pounds not counting accessories.

      It's easy to make good crimped connections.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    59. Re:How much is your time worth by Nai7 · · Score: 3, Informative

      > Just Remember: OverWeight Olga Gives Willingly,
      > But Betty White Gives Bitchin'-Wild Blowjobs.

      Or in haiku with where C = Cyan instead of B since we have brown and blue:

      Oil Water Ocean,
      Glowing With Color Crazy Whorls.
      Get Back When Burning.

    60. Re:How much is your time worth by compwizrd · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Any decent tester will be able to tell you which end you fubar'd though..

  2. Always buy them by igb · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We have TDR equipment and appropriate tools, but we still buy patch cables in bulk. We tested an assortment of ones we had made with cheap crimping tools, and they were all horrible. We can make decent ones, but it takes longer and costs more than buying them pre-tested.

    1. Re:Always buy them by seanadams.com · · Score: 2, Informative

      Aren't the commercial ones also hand made? I find it hard to imagine an automated way of doing it.

      Commercial cables have going for them: rubber injection/overmold for more ruggedness, and they're pre-tested. Aside from that, I don't see exactly what should stop you from making decent ones yourself, assuming sufficient skill.

    2. Re:Always buy them by maxume · · Score: 5, Informative

      Depending on wages and such, the commercial cables could easily have 10x the labor and still be cheaper.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    3. Re:Always buy them by Limburgher · · Score: 2, Informative

      I used to work for a company that builds large machines to do exactly that.

      --

      You are not the customer.

  3. meh, easy... by polle404 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Monster cables, dude, Monster cables...

    --

    ~men are from earth. women are from earth. deal with it.~
    1. Re:meh, easy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hey, I just spent $100 on a 3ft gold-wired Cat6 cable, and I can tell that my bits are coming in cleaner.

    2. Re:meh, easy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Nah, I tested some ethernet cables I made with 4 pairs of wire coathangers and they performed just as well as the Monster Cable ethernet cord!

    3. Re:meh, easy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Monster cables are nothing but a name. I can make higher quality cables out of old telephone wire and snickers bars than anything Monster puts out. Seriously, that whole gold plated thing is a bunch of bullshit. Who gives a damn if your connectors are gold plated, the wire running through the rest of the cable is still plain old wire. The only thing monstrous about them is the price.

      DJCalarco

    4. Re:meh, easy... by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 4, Funny

      What a bunch of crap. My data transfers so much cleaner over my Monster gold-plated ethernet cabling, I can easily hear the difference. Just because you're bit-deaf doesn't mean that there isn't real benefit to the rest of us.

      Moran.

    5. Re:meh, easy... by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hey, I just spent $100 on a 3ft gold-wired Cat6 cable, and I can tell that my bits are coming in cleaner.

      I hate to tell you, but the gold plated wire is doing nothing for you. The secret is in the directional indicator. That's where the magic happens.

    6. Re:meh, easy... by ProfessionalCookie · · Score: 5, Funny

      Bet crimping that was a bitch

    7. Re:meh, easy... by Splab · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The best part of that cable is the fact that it is actually pretty poorly made. Look at the plugs, there are no guards, you can easily snap off the click thingy if you are careless.

  4. Just do what your boss wants by syousef · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's clearly not your company's core business to make their own patch cables. It may be fun for you to wittle down your own toothpics from lincoln logs but if it's not in your job description it ain't going to fly. Seriously, just buy the damn stuff and do what your boss has asked.

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    1. Re:Just do what your boss wants by nine-times · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And why not? The only reason I ever bothered to learn how to make patch cables was because I had bosses who didn't want to spend the extra money to buy commercially produced stuff. If your boss is giving you the OK for the money, then place an order online and have a whole bunch delivered straight to your door. Nothing could be easier.

      I can produce cables all day long and something like 99% of them will be easily good enough for my needs. Still, I wouldn't doubt that a company like Belkin, running an ethernet cable factory or whatever, has better equipment to create and test the cable than I do, and they create better quality cables with greater efficiency than I would. Fewer problem cables, and they catch a greater percentage of the bad ones in their QA.

    2. Re:Just do what your boss wants by Ephemeriis · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's clearly not your company's core business to make their own patch cables. It may be fun for you to wittle down your own toothpics from lincoln logs but if it's not in your job description it ain't going to fly. Seriously, just buy the damn stuff and do what your boss has asked.

      Exactly.

      We buy all our patch cables in bulk. There's no reason for me to assemble a new cable every time we want to patch in another machine. It may not take long to throw together a 6' cable, but why waste any time at all? Break open a package and plug it in. Done.

      We do keep a couple spools on hand, and some wiring tools. If we absolutely need a 15' cable and we don't have any on hand we'll throw one together...

      Or if we really need a new wall jack somewhere... It's good to have the capability to do some of your own wiring if necessary... But for anything substantial we'll contract someone else to do that, too.

      But, really, that isn't what I'm paid to do.

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
  5. I make my own all the time. by khasim · · Score: 2, Informative

    And I have never had any problem with them. Even on 50 servers running at full Gig. No errors.

    1. Re:I make my own all the time. by Guido+del+Confuso · · Score: 5, Funny

      Seconded. I make all my own patch ca$lw7 and3@0 datt trd!@m34ssion ha*F aslwts bben3n vereryu reliabl3233e.

    2. Re:I make my own all the time. by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 2, Funny

      How'd you get ethernet on a classic Newton?

  6. Whatever saves time by boaworm · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've spent many hours debugging things that ended up being poor quality TP connectors, but I've also saved countless more hours producing them myself compared to running to the store everytime.

    For any permanent installation, go for the molded cables. For anything thats temporary, just pick whatever cable is closest.

    And you're not guaranteed to be free of problems just because you buy expensive stuff, I've had problems with Dell PowerEdge switches and factory-made, properly molded STP cables, the RJ45 plug was simply too small and the copper pins didnt connect every time. Really odd, we had to throw away a whole box of STP patch cables for that reason.

    --
    Probable impossibilities are to be preferred to improbable possibilities.
    Aristotele
    1. Re:Whatever saves time by CrazedSanity · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem with the "grab whatever if it's temporary" is that temporary solutions oftentimes become more permanent than anything. I have had many experiences where fixing a problem in the server room exposes some "temporary" fix from years ago that I never had time to make permanent (and since it worked, nobody thought twice about the problem it had fixed).

      Or when developing web applications, somebody implements that "quick function" that does X, intended only for internal stuff. Another feature comes along, and pretty soon we're using that temporary function as the core of a new system... and sometimes it even gets embedded into the core of the system. But remember, it was only temporary.

      --
      Sanity is like a condom: rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.
  7. Hand-made is time consuming by Enry · · Score: 2, Interesting

    but makes perfectly fine cables from what I saw. I generally don't do it anymore unless I have a very custom length as pre-made are really inexpensive and over 10 cables I usually have to re-crimp at least one end. Does your boss have any proof that hand-made cables are inferior?

  8. Create your own but TEST the cables... by nweaver · · Score: 5, Informative

    I've learned the hard way when setting up a couple of clusters: You MUST use custom-made, cut to length cables to prevent a huge rats nets in the server room. Buying precut cables is a disaster. I had to rip out and completely rewire one cluster because I made that mistake.

    However, you need to TEST the cables. And not just by plugging in and making sure it works, but a full ethernet validation tester.

    I've been very happy with the Fluke Cable-IQ qualification tester, which doesn't just make sure that the wiring is correct, but actually tests the cable up to gigabit speed to make sure everything is kosher.

    --
    Test your net with Netalyzr
    1. Re:Create your own but TEST the cables... by digitalunity · · Score: 4, Informative

      This is the most sensible response so far.

      The submitter neglected to mention how often this scenario is encountered though. If this happens frequently, buying a cable tester probably makes a lot of sense and will save a lot of money, time and headaches in the future.

      However, if this happens very rarely, just buy the cable and be done with it.

      --
      You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
    2. Re:Create your own but TEST the cables... by MasterOfMagic · · Score: 5, Informative

      And at $1,270.99, it's an absolute steal!

      Unless he's making hundreds/thousands of patch cables, I think the original poster is better off buying a commercially made cable.

    3. Re:Create your own but TEST the cables... by eggoeater · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Isn't there some diagnostic software you can run to test a cable between two computers?
      I guess you may need a special NIC, but even still, its gotta be cheaper than $1200.

    4. Re:Create your own but TEST the cables... by jefftp · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If you're testing to certify cat5, cat5e, or cat6 you need a cable tester. If you cannot certify the cable to a category you cannot guarantee the cable will work. So the cable is always suspect when you have connectivity issues.

      Keep the OSI model in mind, errors at the physical layer cause the whole stack to collapse.

      The advantage of cabling over wireless is that you can guarantee that the cable will work where there's no such promise with unlicensed RF spectrum.

    5. Re:Create your own but TEST the cables... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Informative

      They are today. I've happily run modern IP stacks on a connection with over 50% packet loss (well, I maybe not happily, but it worked, it just increased latency a fair bit). Packet loss at the low levels is corrected for in the middle and never makes it to the top levels unless you pick top layer protocols like RTP that are designed explicitly not to correct it automatically. As long as some packets are getting through, your data will be send... eventually.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    6. Re:Create your own but TEST the cables... by guru42101 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I used to work for an IT consulting / do-it all shop in a small town. One of our big things was wiring businesses.

      For switch to outlet wiring we made our own cables. It was a lot easier than guessing what lengths of cable we needed to go up the wall, across the ceiling, and wherever else. At the switch we'd put a plug at the end and at the wall we'd put an outlet or plug (if it was going into a pre-wired cubical).

      All walled cables were tested using a basic 6 light tester. I'd recommend that be done even if you bought a 200ft commercial cable and put it into the wall. It is a lot easier to test it now and fix it than have to come back later and fix it.

      For wall - PC patch cables and switch to box patch cables we'd use basic commercial 3,6,9 ft 5e cables. Generally purchased from Greybar in bulk. If you use proper cable routing techniques (with proper cable holders) in the server room you can keep it clean. If you use custom length cables in there you end up having to make new cables every time you need to change the connections around.

  9. He's right... by Ecuador · · Score: 5, Funny

    You can certainly screw it up if you do it yourself, for example you could forget the signal directional markings and then the signal would not know which way to go. Why do you think there are Ethernet cables at $500/1.5m? You think respectable companies are just trying to steal your money?

    --
    Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
    1. Re:He's right... by egcagrac0 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Bah. The Denon cables have arrows pointing both ways, the bits still get confused.

  10. Bite the bullet by bernywork · · Score: 3, Informative

    I buy cables because I would go through 5 - 10 cables a day and by the time I made them, tested them, labelled them, I could be doing 101 other things.

    It's not to say that you can't do it, you can. It's just a matter that the amount of time you spend doing it just makes it a hell of a lot cheaper in the long run to buy them.

    This is ESPECIALLY true when dealing with CAT7 or STP. On a 20Mb line (Probably a 100Mb link) the chances of having a problem though are pretty low provided you terminate it cleanly.

    --
    Curiosity was framed; ignorance killed the cat. -- Author unknown
  11. Not sure if I'm stating the obvious here but by MLS100 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you get the rated speed and it's reliable, need we delve further?

    1. Re:Not sure if I'm stating the obvious here but by tepples · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you get the rated speed and it's reliable, need we delve further?

      But how can you be sure that a cable is as reliable as you think it is without a $1,200 device that comprehensively tests the reliability?

  12. Don't cross the data streams! by mc1138 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I took a network troubleshooting class in college, and we had to test the integrity of data runs that we pulled ourselves and if they weren't good enough we had to do them again till we got our numbers down. I'm sure there are hundreds of data companies that would disagree with you on what it takes to make quality cables and I'm sure "expensive dies" and other nonsense like that really don't help that much when it comes to quality. All you need is a steady hand and lots of practice.

  13. Pointy Haired Nitwitt by nefus · · Score: 5, Funny

    I think you have a pointy haired boss who can't do anything himself. Thats why he has other people do the IT. I've run into these types of people before. He's probably the kind of guy that staples the crap out of cat cable and wonders why his network is down.

  14. If the Belkin cable fails, you can blame Belkin by Glass+Goldfish · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why put your neck on the line? If you make a cable and anything goes wrong, even if it happens later on, you're blamed. If something happens with the Belkin cable, you can blame Belkin. Even if it isn't Belkin's fault. Especially after your boss has told you to do something. Whenever you go up against an authority figure, the best you can hope for is proving them wrong. It's better to say "What a great idea boss!" and buy the cable. If it works, great. If it doesn't work, don't rub it in. Besides, do you really want to crimp your own cables?

    1. Re:If the Belkin cable fails, you can blame Belkin by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If something happens with the Belkin cable, you can blame Belkin.

      That presumes:

      1. You make crappy cables.
      2. Your boss is watching over your shoulder to see whether it's a homemade or bought cable.
      3. All of your bought cables are labeled by the manufacturer.
      4. Your boss cares beyond "is it fixed yet?"

      Besides, do you really want to crimp your own cables?

      Yeah, but I'm one of those crazy people who fix their own fences, hang their own ceiling fans, build treehouses for their kids, and generally like to do things not conducive to the strictly consumer lifestyle.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  15. Rewiring our building by Peter+Simpson · · Score: 5, Informative

    We had a contractor come in and rewire our facility. They ran raw CAT 6 and hand terminated it, then TDR'd each run.
    Your boss is unclear on the tools needed and the difficulty...just simple hand crimpers were all they needed. There's going to be
    an impedance bump at the RJ anyway...the cable's not twisted there.

    As to making them yourself or buying patch cables? It's way cheaper to buy them (I like L-Com) but if you need one *right now*,
    (or a custom length) it's cheap to have a crimp tool, some RJs and a roll of cable handy in the corner of the office.

  16. Doubt he's correct, but believe him anyway! by zaf · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Wait a minute. Your boss is telling you to buy cables instead of toiling to make your own, and you're _complaining_? I don't think a self-terminated link of CAT6 will have the slightest trouble maintaining 20 megabits, but that's not the point.

    Word of advice, take his word for him and nod. If he's willing to spend money to make your job easier, then keep that job!

  17. Not worth the responsibility by hhaarrvv · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Your cables would be fine, but if ANYTHING ever goes wrong the first thing your boss will say is "It's probably that damn cable you made when I told you to buy one." It's just not worth it.

  18. Re:your boss sucks at making ethernet cables by causality · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Obviously your boss isn't good at making cables. While if you lack the skill to do something like make cables with care you're going to have problems, there's no reason that you can't make your own cables and have them perform just as well as the ones made by a machine in a factory.

    They can put it under the "Tech" section if they like, but this is really another disappointing Ask Slashdot. It's disappointing because too many of these have this format: "my boss at work wants me to do X, but I'd really rather do Y; what are the merits of X versus Y?" All of them need to be summarily rejected, with a polite e-mail sent to the submitter which says "within the bounds of the law, you need to do what your boss asks you to do whether or not you necessarily agree with it. If you cannot convince your boss to do otherwise, and this is a problem for you, perhaps you should consider working elsewhere."

    The other disappointing category of Ask Slashdot-type submissions are those questions that are factual in nature and have only one correct (and rather well-known, easily researched) answer. Asking a large group with varying levels of expertise makes a lot of sense when there are multiple possible solutions to a problem and there is room to be creative. It makes no sense when it's more of a yes/no question -- remember the recent Ask Slashdot that asked whether spam is increased by trying to opt-out of spam e-mails? That's an excellent case in point, and not atypical either. That should have been an "Ask Google", not an "Ask Slashdot".

    I think it's a shame that the quality of these particular submissions are on the decline. There's nothing inherently wrong with the "Ask Slashdot" format and there are a lot of very knowledgable people who browse this site. I'd love to see how creative they can be. It's just never going to be as good as it easily could be when it's handled this way.

    --
    It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
  19. Your boss is a dumbass.. by ockers · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Ask him how the premise wiring in every commercial building in the world is installed. They order patch cables from some commercial patch cable vendor for every run, riiiiiiiight.

    Also, CAT5e is fine for what you are doing. I agree with the previous poster that you could practically use tin cans and a string for this.

    These special dies, jacks, and connectors are called "CAT5" parts and you can buy them at Home Depot I think. Does that make them "special" ?

  20. I only use monster ethernet cables by jollyreaper · · Score: 2, Funny

    It really preserves the assonitic complexity and quality of the packets when they move from your wall to your router. Cheaper cables let noisy bits through that go all wobbly and clog your connection. I hear their new wifi cables are hella expensive but totally worth it.

    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
  21. Yes and No by egcagrac0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We have a roll of bulk cable for when location X needs a network run Right Now. I route it, cut to length, and terminate it. I'm pretty good.

    I don't have a TDR, so I run 200M of data at the target link speed. If it isn't good enough (i.e. more than 10% away from my target throughput rate), I reterminate the cable. If it still isn't good enough, I pull new cable.

    This is for those projects where waiting a week for a shipment of manufactured cable won't do. For anything else, you are wasting time and money by making your own cable. Tested chinese patch cables are cheaper than buying bulk cable, and they have a higher chance of working right the first time, and they're probably the right kind of cable for what you're doing.

    Your boss is being paranoid - I'm sure you can install cable to handle the 20M link without problems... but he's right to say that you should look to save money elsewhere. I'm guessing you make more than $3/hr - your time can be put to better use than making a $20 cable.

    Now, on the other hand - if you're doing a run that's more than 100ft long, yes. Make it yourself (or hire a professional installer). Long cables are stupid expensive - but that's horizontal cabling, not patch cabling. Still have to pull, route, and terminate it properly. Getting good connectors on it is the tricky part - none of the local places carry the kind of jacks we use (Panduit MiniCom - all the locals carry some crappy cheap variety of a keystone jack).

    TLDR: You had a T1, probably at the same demarcation point. Why aren't you reusing that cabling to move the data from the new channel bank that's sitting 3 feet away from the old T1 interface over to the network closet?

  22. Agreed. by dr_wheel · · Score: 5, Informative

    Yes, you can use handmade cables that are as good as mass-produced factory cables. But that really isn't the issue.

    It's just not worth the time spent to cut and crimp your own lines anymore. In my experience, it was a more common practice years ago in IT. That may have had something to do with the fact that there weren't nearly as many PC's or ethernet ports in buildings as there are today.

    My advice: Find a good supplier (i.e. not one that charges $800 for a 6 ft. adamantium-coated cable) and do something else with the rest of your time.

  23. Just pretend that the question is... by tepples · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's disappointing because too many of these have this format: "my boss at work wants me to do X, but I'd really rather do Y; what are the merits of X versus Y?" All of them need to be summarily rejected, with a polite e-mail sent to the submitter which says "within the bounds of the law, you need to do what your boss asks you to do whether or not you necessarily agree with it. If you cannot convince your boss to do otherwise, and this is a problem for you, perhaps you should consider working elsewhere."

    Just pretend that the question is "how should I convince my boss that Y is better than X?". It's like asking legal questions on Ask Slashdot: the real question is "what should I know before my appointment with a lawyer?".

  24. Re:your boss sucks at making ethernet cables by FatRichie · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Maybe I'm missing your point... but I think the submitter is aware of what he's REQUIRED to do. This puts his question more on the theoretical, "If I were the boss..." , but still does not invalidate the question. Just because he may be unable to act on the advice gained here, why does that make the question bad? There may be plenty of other situations where he CAN apply the advice, or any of the rest of us reading can use said advice.

  25. Re:your boss sucks at making ethernet cables by timeOday · · Score: 5, Insightful

    All of them need to be summarily rejected, with a polite e-mail sent to the submitter which says "within the bounds of the law, you need to do what your boss asks you to do whether or not you necessarily agree with it. If you cannot convince your boss to do otherwise, and this is a problem for you, perhaps you should consider working elsewhere."

    Bull! Entirely aside from what the submitter should do to protect their job, it is topical on slashdot to question whether DIY ethernet cables are any good, just as people on a home repair DIY site might discuss whether doing drywall yourself is worthwhile.

    When the only answer slashdotters can imagine is "just pay somebody else to do it," that is the day there is no point reading here.

  26. Re:your boss sucks at making ethernet cables by Victor_0x53h · · Score: 2, Informative

    While I would agree that hand making Ethernet cables is a fine way to go about things, if the boss says says to buy them pre-made, then just buy them. That is, unless you can convince him, for example, that hand making cables is necessary for keeping a tidy data room (precut sizes aren't going to work for running a building's worth of Ethernet jacks).

    What you've posted him saying sounds like a lot of I'm-afraid-of-doing-that-myself jargon. By crimping the cables yourself you're opening yourself up for any data or transmission speed problems to be blamed on you and your shoddy Time Domain Reflectometer tests.

  27. How do you want to spend your time? by pz · · Score: 2, Informative

    I've bought thousands of dollars of cable. Full disclosure, it has been BNC cable, and not ethernet, but I think my experience is likely germane. This cable has been used to construct installations of scientific equipment that gets reconfigured pretty frequently (and I've been the primary user on most of this equipment). I have never, ever had a single cable-related failure using ITT/Pomona cables. My peers, on the other hand, use hand-made cables and are constantly debugging their setups.

    I spend my time doing my job (collecting data), while other people in my lab spend their time fixing problems. (Really full disclosure, I'm the only one with an EE degree.)

    Good cables can be found inexpensively. These are the ones you want. Cheap cables can be found for less money, but these are the ones you do not want. Custom cables, unless you have high-quality crimping tools (the $39.99 variety don't cut it) and a proper means for doing testing, which means TDR and bandwidth testing in your case, just are not worth it for general-purpose use.

    Look at it this way: how long does it take you to generate a qualified cable? Not how long does it take you to make one cable, but how long does it take you to make one cable that you will use, including all of the failed crimps, cables that were cut too short, too long, were miswired, or must be discarded, for some other reason. How many cables will you be making? Total that up and use 1/2 of the time to search for low prices on high-quality cable instead. You will be ahead in the end.

    --

    Put my fist through my alarm clock with its ding-dong death inside my ear. - The Blackjacks.
  28. At NASA I regularaly good cables, by pecosdave · · Score: 2, Interesting

    with equipment that's not much different than stock equipment. I test these cables with a DTX-1800, they do great.

    They're sticklers for BlackBox brand cable, I don't know if it's because the cables good, or the more likely scenario that instead of specifying TIA-568B compliant cable they have have to give a part number to make a "Typical". A "Typical" is a blue print for a cable. Remember, it's government, loads of red tape.

    We also use Black Box brand connectors, again, for part number reasons I'm almost certain. For the Cat-5 stuff there is something a bit different than your run of the mill cables, it's the inclusion of black load bars that get crimped into the connection. A bit different than most connectors I've used.

    The only Cat-6 I've made was a specialized connector with additional grounding added, so I wont get into that.

    Beyond what's mentioned the only difference between NASA and the rest of the world is the use of really expensive test equipment, and the insistence that calibrated ratcheting crimpers are used. For test reasons I've made cables using my own stuff and put it on the Fluke, I hate to say it, but my uncalibrated out of the box $20 crimpers from Ideal do just as well as there $150 at minimum crimpers that are custom pieced together. At least according to the Fluke.

    --
    The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
  29. Re:your boss sucks at making ethernet cables by Thornburg · · Score: 5, Funny

    When the only answer slashdotters can imagine is "just pay somebody else to do it," that is the day there is no point reading here.

    Hey, that was pretty good. What would you charge to make my posts for me?

  30. Field Crimping Cat6? by ddillman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I've personally crimped thousands of patch cables and other ethernet lines in Cat5 and Cat5e. However, it's been my understanding that it is nigh impossible to field crimp Cat6 to meet specs. That may have changed, since the last time I asked was a couple of years ago. Cat5 and 5e are relatively easy, and as others mentioned, making your own eliminates messy loops of extra cable hanging about. And there's some satisfaction from making your own stuff as well. But Cat6? As others mentioned, it's probably cheaper and better in the long run to purchase ready-made cables from a reputable source.

    --
    Little girls, like butterflies, need no excuse. -- L. Long
  31. Cheap Cables: Buyer Beware by blavallee · · Score: 2, Interesting

    While I have made my own, I really just don't have the time. Especially when I need a few dozen patch cables.
    Running to the store is great, but I've learned the hard way to trust only one manufacturer. Their cables are guaranteed for life!

    Buy a few hundred 'Brand X' cables and a percentage of them could be useless.
    Once that happens, you'll have a box of cables you'll never want to use. Just can't trust them.

    Beside, who has a spool of beige, black, blue, gray, green, orange, pink, purple, red (crossover only), white, and yellow laying around?

  32. Re:your boss sucks at making ethernet cables by Phasma+Felis · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They can put it under the "Tech" section if they like, but this is really another disappointing Ask Slashdot. It's disappointing because too many of these have this format: "my boss at work wants me to do X, but I'd really rather do Y; what are the merits of X versus Y?" All of them need to be summarily rejected, with a polite e-mail sent to the submitter which says "within the bounds of the law, you need to do what your boss asks you to do whether or not you necessarily agree with it. If you cannot convince your boss to do otherwise, and this is a problem for you, perhaps you should consider working elsewhere."

    I don't know about you, but I was hired for my technical expertise. It is part of my job description to let management know when they are making bad technical decisions. If they still insist after that, then sure, I gotta shrug my shoulders and do it; but until then, it's my job to find out the facts and make sure they stay informed...which is exactly what the questioner is doing.

    Save the "shut up and do as you're told" bit for McDonald's burger-flippers. We're professionals here.

  33. What are your needs? by davidwr · · Score: 2, Informative

    If pre-made cables from a good vendor are available that meet your needs, then buy them.

    Times they may not meet your needs:

    *You need it NOW
    *They don't come in your size and the nearest sizes are not acceptable
    *The only vendor that makes the one you need charges a fortune

    Examples of when custom is good:
    *Temporary installations, and it's faster or a lot cheaper to make than to go shopping
    *Runs over 50 feet that aren't close to pre-made sizes. A 63 M run in tight conduit and little room for slack cable is probably better done custom than using a 75 M premade run. Usually, runs under 50 feet can use a 50' or smaller pre-made cable.

    For permanent installations, test your custom cables. Test your store-bought ones too for that matter.

    For temporary installations or installations where it's easy to yank-and-replace if there's a problem, it's frequently good enough to just power it on and see if "it works."

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  34. What kind of distance are we talking about? by blendedmetaphor · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you have a substantial distance to run, a patch cable may not be the best option. Patch cables are (or should be) made of stranded conductors to make them more flexible and reduce metal fatigue. They are not recommended for long distances. A permanent link cable is made of solid conductor wire and carries the signal better at longer distances. Keep in mind that a CAT5e/6 ethernet connection is limited to 100M/328ft. If you need to run solid conductor, installing the data jacks is much easier than installing the crimp-on RJ45 ends and much more reliable. Doing it this way would simply require two short patch cables to tie the permanent link to your devices. My $.02.

    --
    Existence is futile
  35. Be Careful! by tignet · · Score: 3, Informative
    There are two types of cable, stranded and solid core. Solid core is generally used for the horizontal cabling (from the patch panel to the jack at the user area), where stranded is used for the patch cables.

    Solid core has slightly better propagation properties (the 100M limit implies solid core for example) however it also acts similar to a wire coat-hanger. Like any metal it weakens as it bends and after a period of time it'll grow weak, thin and even completely break.

    Stranded is similar to a braided rope, it can withstand constant reconnections (user area, especially common with laptops), movements (telcom closets when you're moving the cable mess to access equipment ports) and the stress that will wear down the solid-core cables.

    Do yourself a favor and make sure that if you create your own patch cables:
    • Cable correctly. Know your color code, it makes future changes (such as to length) MUCH easier and the standards are in place for a reason. Ethernet uses pins 1, 2, 3, and 6 -- which match up exactly with the standard pinouts. Making your own pinout from left to right for example will not allow for cross-talk cancellation and will cause performance problems. Generally you want to match whatever standard your patch panel is, probably 568-B.
    • Use stranded cable. It's more difficult to work with (it doesn't stay in place like solid core, making it more difficult to put the ends on) but you definitely want to do this.
    • Use RJ45 connectors intended for stranded cable.

    There's nothing wrong with making your own patch cables, and it could potentially save you big bucks (compared with buying a $35 patch cable at a local store). However if it's not done right you will kick yourself down the road -- or more likely blame the network electronics, server, network cards, or whatever you normally blame. :)

  36. Drill test by salesgeek · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Best advice I've ever heard on cabling:

    If you have to drill holes to run it, make your own. If you don't buy it premade.

    Second best advice:

    Test it all. Even if it comes in a shrink wrap package.

    --
    -- $G
  37. Bad Attitude by PinkyDead · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This principle of going with the provider you can sue over the one you can rely on is becoming far too prevalent.

    I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with Belkin, and I think in this situation the pre-made cables are the better option.

    However, in a more general sense, I'd prefer that my systems didn't go down rather than being able to point the finger when they do. If you are the front end provider of a service your customers are not going to be placated by the fact that, even though all their data is gone, you are currently seeking glorious retribution from the guy that solders the LEDs onto your motherboards (or whatever).

    On top of this, when things go tits up at three o'clock in the morning - you can be sure the Belkin shop won't be open.

    --
    Genesis 1:32 And God typed :wq!
  38. This is not a time/money issue by exploder · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is a CYA issue. Your boss does not want to explain to HIS boss, when a cable goes bad and the company is losing $large_number per hour until it is diagnosed and fixed, that he authorized one of his tech guys to use "homemade" cables.

    --
    Yo dawg, I heard you like the Ackermann function, so OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD
    1. Re:This is not a time/money issue by halber_mensch · · Score: 5, Funny

      This is a CYA issue. Your boss does not want to explain to HIS boss, when a cable goes bad and the company is losing $large_number per hour until it is diagnosed and fixed, that he authorized one of his tech guys to use "homemade" cables.

      I absolutely agree. You can't trust an IT professional's "homemade" cables any more than you can trust a cook's "homemade" meal. That's why you should always buy your work instead of doing it yourself. I went to Outback Steakhouse yesterday and ate the best steak I ever had, and do you know why? It was because THEIR COOKS DIDN'T MAKE IT! They did the sensible thing and took my order across the street to McDonald's, returning to me (at a marginal reseller's markup) a quality steak from a trusted manufacturer. And if the steak had been bad, the cooks had done their duty to their job security and could just say to their boss, "Hey, it came from McDonald's! And I'm a valued employee that has skills you need, like being able to run across a busy street during a dinner rush and buy something from another company! So you should definitely just blame McDonald's and let me get back to flirting with the hostess!" Bingo! The boss is happy, the customer gets mediocre service and quality at insane profit, and the cooks don't have any value to the business at all! That's exactly how every business should operate! Because if you trust your workers to do the jobs you hired them for, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. Because since you weren't able to purchase your employees at an employee store and instead had to choose them yourself, they obviously must be as unqualified for their jobs as you know you are.

      --
      perl -e "eval pack(q{H*},join q{},qw{70 72696e74207061636b28717b482a7d2c717b343 637323635363534323533343430617d293b})"
    2. Re:This is not a time/money issue by W.+Justice+Black · · Score: 2, Funny

      They did the sensible thing and took my order across the street to McDonald's, returning to me (at a marginal reseller's markup) a quality steak from a trusted manufacturer.

      The truly sad part is that I'd probably eat a McDonald's steak. Mmm. Charred cow flesh.

      But I'd never admit to it. Oh, wait. Crap.

      --
      "Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana." --Groucho Marx
    3. Re:This is not a time/money issue by exploder · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think you're missing my point, and from your tone, I suspect it's on purpose. I'm sure the submitter can make a good cable. But the boss doesn't know that. And should he put his own ass on the line just because the submitter CLAIMS he can make quality cables?

      Look: when something goes wrong in a company, somebody gets blamed. They call it all sorts of things, like "root cause analysis" or some other jargon bullshit, but it's really sticking someone with the blame. If you're the boss, you really, really don't want the blame to land on you OR your department.

      If a bought cable goes bad, the blame only goes to you if you made a bad choice of supplier, which is why you buy from ESTABLISHED companies. On the other hand, if a homemade cable goes bad, it's your subordinate's skills, and more importantly, YOUR JUDGMENT that's called into question.

      You don't want that, and you know that nobody will ever question your decision to spend a little extra buying cables instead of making them. What decision would you make?

      --
      Yo dawg, I heard you like the Ackermann function, so OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD
    4. Re:This is not a time/money issue by exploder · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Doesn't help when the first question is, "who supplied that cable"? I don't know if you've been in a "root cause" meeting, but they DO get all Sherlock Holmes on that shit, I assure you.

      --
      Yo dawg, I heard you like the Ackermann function, so OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD
    5. Re:This is not a time/money issue by exploder · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But the guy's boss isn't the one Asking Slashdot, speaking of missing points. I don't think what the boss *should* do is germane to this discussion.

      We could talk all day about what bosses are like in Happy Land, but the submitter has a question about his real-life job, and mostly he's getting good advice: do what the boss says, and if you can't handle that, update your resume.

      --
      Yo dawg, I heard you like the Ackermann function, so OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD
  39. Re:Eh. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Informative

    I've used both handmade and commercial cables and there is big difference in the connectors. When I crimp it myself (or get cheap pre-made ones) the only thing holding the connector on is the little metal spikes inside it. With decent commercial cables, there is moulded plastic connecting the ends on to the cable, which is a lot stronger.

    Whether it's worth going for the expensive option depends on whether the cable will be plugged in and unplugged a lot or whether the ends are likely to have sharp bends in the cable near them.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  40. Not as such... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They are made at specific lengths for marketing reasons. All of the "transmission line" characteristics of Ethernet cable have been solved for every length within the specified maximum.

    I have a whole data center (~32 rows of 22 racks) fully cabled with lengths ranging from 100 meters to 5 inches (crossover between 1U boxes). They are cut to custom lengths, source to destination. Where their port is on the router and where they were placed in the tray add and subtract inches here and there. They run to the patchpanels in bundles about 7 inches in diameter. We have no problems with crosstalk, reflections, intermod and what have you.

    If this were coaxial Ethernet we could have a fun discussion... but those days are well behind us.

  41. Stranded by dbosso · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You really want to use stranded wire for patch cables. Solid will end up cracking with the repeated bending that most patches are subjected to. I've made patches by hand with stranded and found it much harder to work with than the solid most people are used to.

    It's definitely not worth my time unless it's an emergency with no alternative (i.e. poor planning).

    -db

  42. Unfortunatly no... by nweaver · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Something like the Fluke tester is a very sophisticated ANALOG device. Its measuring reflectivity and a whole host of analog properties, in order to determine that the cable meets the specification.

    EG, it will tell you where there is an actual break in the cable.

    Personally, I don't consider build-my-own cables saving money. Rather, it is some other reason (the necessity to be neat, an inability to pull pre-made jacks through the wall...) that is the reason to build your own.

    --
    Test your net with Netalyzr
  43. Funny by kimvette · · Score: 2, Informative

    That's funny.

    I mean, a couple of weeks ago I finished up a job where I went into a mess, with a mix of premade cables and mixing A and B pinouts. I re-did most of the connections - by hand - and installed all new patch cables - made by hand, and tested every link with a TDR. A couple failed - turned out the oh-so-slight crosstalk between T568B patch cables and the old T568R runs was just enough to break the link so I switched those old connections to T568B and all was well.

    I've seen articles which claim the crosstalk from mixing A and B only sometimes cause link problems, but I've seen it often enough to make it a blanket rule to always, always, always go 568B. 568B is supposedly deprecated but every cable I've ever bought off the shelf, aside from crossover cable, has been wired 568B so I always stick with B.

    Most of the premade patch cables that were on site tested bad BTW. I've since installed a few premade cables but they were brand new and those tested fine.

    If you're going room to room, don't go with premade patch cables. Get a spool of CAT-6 and use keystones (jacks) on the PC side and a patch panel (or keystones if the boss is too cheap - although once you do more than 20 jacks the patch panel becomes much cheaper so just tell him to STFU and do it right, and skip one appetizer and alcoholic beverage at a meal to recoup the cost) on the other side. Just hanging a patch cable out of the wall is really hack. It works, but it's fugly.

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
  44. Re:your boss sucks at making ethernet cables by kimvette · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Here's how people screw up cables:

    1. They just match colors at either end and don't pick a standard pinout (T568A or B). That might result in a usable 10mbps link, but it won't work at 100 or 1000.

    2. They mix 568A and 568B - usually wiring A in the wall, and using premade B patch cables. Instant crosstalk. OK on very short runs, but anything longer than 80' to 100' will become problematic with many NICs.

    3. They score the insulation. Use the right tools, and adjust the tension on the stripper.

    4. They only strip 1/2" of insulation and try to organize the cables and jam it in, so you don't get a clean connection on all the conductors - or might miss one completely. Strip the insulation back 2", then you have room to sort the conductors, trim them neatly then you can slide them all the way to the end of the terminator, then the clips will "bite" each conductor twice - cleanly, resulting in a good connection and a strong link.

    Your boss sounds like an idiot and a hack.

    If you're going from the wall to the PC I'd say yeah, buy a premade cable and save on labor. Just buy a good one. Believe it or not monoprice's cheap stuff is extremely good.

    From the patch panel to the switch, it depends on the length. Will a premade cable fit the length well? Go premade. If not, then make the cables.

    Ultimately though, your boss is the boss. If he insists on hanging patch cables loose through the wall, etc. just document it in email, send it to him with your recommendation, etc. so that when he comes back to you complaining that it looks hack or that the cabling was overpriced, you can remind him that you recommended otherwise.

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
  45. certified cat6, stranded vs solid by Akatosh · · Score: 2, Informative

    I have a cat6 cable certifier. You can make cords by hand that certifies to cat6 the majority of the time. Something that isn't cat6 compliant isn't going to hurt your 100base, you only need cat5e for gigabit, cat5 for 100base. You can't tell if you meet cat6 spec without the $10k certifier.

    A lot of people put rj45 mod ends on solid wire (instead of stranded). Then when the wire moves it pulls on the pins and 'goes bad'. Premade patch cords are always stranded, ones you make usually are using solid wire. If you use solid wire from jack to jack and tie it down, then use premade patch cords made from stranded wire from jack to device, you're fine. Or buy stranded wire and make your own. Putting a rj45 mod end on stranded wire is a little bit challenging. Your best bet is solid wire from jack to jack, tied down, prebought short patch cords from jack to device.

  46. My simple rule by sjames · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Patch cables are bought pre-made in standard lengths. These are for use in racks, from desktops to wall jack, patch panel to switch, etc. In these cases the time taken to properly crimp the ends and re-doing the occasional bad crimp is just not worth it.

    Cable RUNS, such as what you're talking about are done custom in-house.

    One big advantage is that the cable pull can be done much more easily without the ends in the way. You can abuse the end of the cable as much as necessary (including tieing it in a knot) to get it pulled then just snip the abused part off.

    Another advantage is getting the length right. It's a shame (and a mess) to have to coil up 30 meters of cable just because you could buy 50m or 100m and you needed 70. The alternative would be to measure the length you need and have someone else custom the cable 'professionally' for you. The problem is that you're now doing the pull twice (once with string to measure and then again with the custom cable) and the 'professional' cable will come from some guy doing exactly what you were going to do. It's not like it's rocket surgery and he may have no more experience than you do. Further, he doesn't have the sure knowledge that he'll be at the office till 3 A.M. if it goes bad to encourage him to do it well.

    Further, if you buy pre-made of have it "professionally" made, you have to be extra careful not to abuse the end of the cable when you pull it. Most likely, you'll tie the pull string near the end as tightly as you can, and then when it comes out the other end, you'll find that it slipped and all of the pulling force has been supported by the connector pulling through the crimp. If the end didn't actually come off, it's probably worse than even an amateurish crimp by now. Either that, or the connector has caught on absolutely every obstruction along the path and so is similarly damaged. Covering it over with tape will help but not eliminate the problem.

    I've never had a problem with a hand made cable that didn't show up right away with a tester and couldn't be solved by snipping the end off and trying again.

    Big tip for getting a clean crimp: Strip off a little too much outer insulation, get all your conductors lined up in the connector, then pull it back out holding the conductors in alignment between your thumb and index finger. Now snip the excess off squarely and re-insert into the plug. If the outer sheath doesn't go neatly into the connector, nip off a bit more. You now have a nice professionally made cable (you are, after all, a networking professional and you made the cable).

    The only actual difference is who does the testing.

  47. Always wanted one of those... by Oidhche · · Score: 2, Funny

    We have a T1 line coming into our satellite office

    Strap a cart onto it and you'll have a space elevator!

  48. You must drink a lot of coffee... by CrimsonScythe · · Score: 2, Funny

    As another EE (who does all their work at about 3GHz)

    You must drink a lot of coffee to be that jittery. I can't even begin to understand how you'll get any work done at 3GHz...

    --
    The view was horrible and the smell was even worse; Julie severely regretted becoming a proctologist.