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Australian Gov't Offers $560k Cryptographic Protocol For Free

mask.of.sanity writes "Australia's national welfare agency will release its 'unbreakable' AU$560,000 smart card identification protocol for free. The government agency wants other departments and commercial businesses to adopt the Protocol for Lightweight Authentication of ID (PLAID), which withstood three years of design and testing by Australian and American security agencies. The agency has one of Australia's most advanced physical and logical converged security systems: staff can access doors and computers with a single centrally-managed identity card, and user identities can be automatically updated as employees leave, are recruited or move to new departments. PLAID, which will be available soon, is to be used in the agency's incoming fleet of contact-less smartcards that are currently under trial by staff. It will replace existing identity cards that operate on PKI encryption."

163 comments

  1. Surprisingly sedate acronym by Sockatume · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Somehow that makes it more sinister than calling it "RAZORBAK" or "AOK JINGOSIM".

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    1. Re:Surprisingly sedate acronym by Sockatume · · Score: 2, Funny

      (I'm not saying that the encryption is sinister, just that after so many contrived fist-pumping acronyms in the past decade, it's creepy.)

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    2. Re:Surprisingly sedate acronym by Sockatume · · Score: 2, Funny

      Jingosim? Damn it.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    3. Re:Surprisingly sedate acronym by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    4. Re:Surprisingly sedate acronym by davester666 · · Score: 1

      I was thinking, particularly w.r.t. to "withstood three years of design and testing by Australian and American security agencies", and my utter lack of belief that they would honestly report any problems they found with the system to the public, that it is really an offshoot of "play'd".

      --
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    5. Re:Surprisingly sedate acronym by Haeleth · · Score: 1

      my utter lack of belief that they would honestly report any problems they found with the system to the public

      Why? We aren't talking about something like disk encryption where the government might supposedly want to have a secret backdoor they could use to snoop on your data.* We're talking about smart cards that are going to be used by the government itself to provide security to that government's own premises. What motive would they have for concealing problems?

      Even supposing they found cryptographic weaknesses and decided not to publish details of them, you would expect them to have fixed any such weaknesses before rolling out the system. Their job is to secure their own buildings. They're hardly going to deliberately choose a broken system to do that - there are limits even to government stupidity.

      * Not that there's any reason to believe governments do much of this kind of thing. AES, for example, has withstood years of intensive scrutiny without so much as a hint of a backdoor.

    6. Re:Surprisingly sedate acronym by davester666 · · Score: 1

      Yes, I would expect them to fix any problems/issues they found in their own implementation.

      But there are several gov't agencies that would be quite interested in any specific vulnerabilities for an entry system that may gain widespread use.

      --
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    7. Re:Surprisingly sedate acronym by dov_0 · · Score: 1

      We Aussies are surprisingly straight-forward and blunt about naming things. For example. Squeaky Beach (your feet squeak in the sand as you walk) Cock Rock (it looks like a, well, never mind), The Great Sandy Desert, 90-mile Beach and the Nullarbor Plain (means 'no trees' in Latin). Also anything coming out of Canberra tends to have a hint of 'boring' to it.

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    8. Re:Surprisingly sedate acronym by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what do you have against Scottish people eh?

  2. So when it gets replaced by courtjester801 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Can it be referred to as the Former Lightweight Authentication of ID, or FLACID?

    1. Re:So when it gets replaced by tychovi · · Score: 3, Funny

      I knew I should've taken the blue pill...

    2. Re:So when it gets replaced by navyjeff · · Score: 1

      Can it be referred to as the Former Lightweight Authentication of Centrally Controlled ID, or FLACCID?

  3. A little more info by explosivejared · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here is a briefing on the PLAID 6 protocol with more specifics on the actual algorithms and cryptography in general involved. PDF link if the first one doesn't work for you.

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    1. Re:A little more info by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 4, Informative

      The protocol looks unremarkable. They pass some entropy and IDs back and forth, using conventional standards based encryption and hash algorithms.

      Their problem is keeping the cards secure and they state clearly that they are using commercially available smart cards.

      There are secrets in the cards, an RSA private key and an AES master key. The bigger problem is keeping these secrets in the cards and distributing the keys to cards. The PLAID protocol has no bearing on these matters.

      --
      Evil people are out to get you.
    2. Re:A little more info by swillden · · Score: 5, Informative

      There are secrets in the cards, an RSA private key and an AES master key. The bigger problem is keeping these secrets in the cards and distributing the keys to cards. The PLAID protocol has no bearing on these matters.

      Which is fine, because those problems are easily solved.

      Commercially-available smart cards provide a rather high degree of security. Extracting keys from them isn't impossible (nothing is), but it is very difficult and expensive. I design high security systems for a living, and we have no concerns about the security of the cards themselves, because experience shows it's just not an issue.

      What we do focus on is the security of the issuance process, because that's where those keys get injected. That problem is also solvable, mainly by performing the key injection in secure facilities using highly secure devices (FIPS 140-2 level 4 certified hardware security modules). It's expensive and complex (from a management and process perspective, not a technical perspective), but a high degree of security is achievable.

      The protocol looks unremarkable. They pass some entropy and IDs back and forth, using conventional standards based encryption and hash algorithms.

      It is unremarkable, which is one of its most significant strengths. It's just a lighter-weight approach to the problem, one that can be implemented efficiently on current-generation hardware. Previously, PK authentication on smart cards was considered too slow to use for physical access control and other applications where sub-second authentication was required. Faster smart cards coupled with a lightweight authentication protocol mean that PK authentication can be completed reliably in as little as 200 ms. That's fast enough to use it for transit applications.

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    3. Re:A little more info by thsths · · Score: 1

      > Their problem is keeping the cards secure and they state clearly that they are using commercially available smart cards.

      The other problem is the use of an RFID interface. Unless you have a metal wallet, your card would be vulnerable to third party use as long as they can get close enough to your wallet. The normal readers can only bridge a few centimeters, but there is no reason why with proper signal amplification it should not work over a meter or more. Suddenly new attack scenarios become feasible that are completely unnecessary.

      RFID may be nice, but the card needs an off switch to be safe.

    4. Re:A little more info by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      You missed the bit about it performing strong mutual authentication. What third party attacks are you concerned about?

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    5. Re:A little more info by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      Yes.

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      Evil people are out to get you.
    6. Re:A little more info by oldhack · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If it's so unremarkable, what makes it worth half million Australian dollars, then? Unremarkable patent, perhaps?

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    7. Re:A little more info by profplump · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Completely unnecessary" is a stretch at best -- contact-less interfaces have real benefits. The most obvious is a lack of contamination and corrosion, both on the card and the reader. Another is decreased read times, which allows you to use the cards in more places without increasing the level of annoyance.

      Not to mention the "new attack scenarios" do not include simple copying of the card UUID, so radio-based attacks would need to be interactive:
      1. Attacker camps out at door with radio equipment
      2. Attacker points antenna at employee coming towards door
      3. Attacker is able to authenticate to the door as approaching employee

      While that's certainly a technically feasible attack it's not terribly practical in execution, even if you setup an out-of-band comm system to isolate the card under attack from the person entering the building.

      Plus you really could just issue a foil-lined holder if you were worried about such attacks. Or make authentication two-factor and require the entry of a PIN or somesuch in addition to the card scan.

    8. Re:A little more info by palegray.net · · Score: 1

      Developing and maintaining the security infrastructure (read: controlling people and the key issuance and management processes) is what costs tons of money with systems like this; the underlying technology is fairly simple.

    9. Re:A little more info by swillden · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If it's so unremarkable, what makes it worth half million Australian dollars, then? Unremarkable patent, perhaps?

      How do you define the "worth" of a protocol?

      Secure protocols are hard to design because there are a lot of subtle errors that can be made. It takes a lot of work by a lot of smart people to make sure that none have been -- and it's even harder if the protocol breaks new ground.

      I suspect that the half-million figure is an estimate of how much has been put into the design and verification of the protocol. That's a goodly amount of work. Had the protocol been extremely novel, verifying it to the world's satisfaction would have been *much* more expensive that 0.5M AUD.

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    10. Re:A little more info by owlstead · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The protocol looks unremarkable. They pass some entropy and IDs back and forth, using conventional standards based encryption and hash algorithms.

      That's a good thing.

      Their problem is keeping the cards secure and they state clearly that they are using commercially available smart cards.

      Which is also a good thing, as long as these cards have been analyzed well. I would be worried if they were using cards with "military grade" security meaning that they were only analyzed by few, without any standardized security level like FIPS or CC.

      There are secrets in the cards, an RSA private key and an AES master key. The bigger problem is keeping these secrets in the cards and distributing the keys to cards. The PLAID protocol has no bearing on these matters.

      Sorry, but you are wrong on both matters.

      The RSA private key and AES master keys are not on the card. It contains the RSA public key and the AES derived key (one that is specific to the card).

      There are many interesting things about this protocol. Lets have a list so I can get a few mod points on this old discussion:

      • No ID before authentication (card ID is encrypted with public RSA key, standard RSA encryption uses random padding)
      • No RSA private key encryption for the authentication (vulnerable to attack)
      • Uses standardized, up to date algorithms (SHA-1 is only used in a secure way as far as I can see)
      • Uses RSA public key on the card, which is *faster* than ECC because the public exponent will likely be small (010001h normally)

      Ok, for some disadvantages

      • Requires contact-less processor card with AES and hardware RSA support
      • Access is much slower than with AES only authentication
      • Time and power usage of RSA calculations may make it more difficult to do a successful authentication
      • Unremarkable (probably has been invented earlier)
      • Requires terminal that performs RSA private key encryption
      • Requires RSA private key to be present on reader side, key cannot be revoked
      • Still requires a single master key (hopefully it will never be leaked)

      All in all, this protocol is very interesting for mutual authentication. I'll have to look into it further (e.g. how much the private key needs to stay private).

    11. Re:A little more info by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      That's probably just the cost to develop it. Doesn't seem like a bad deal... less than a million bucks to build a security system design that can be easily implemented and copied, yet remain secure?

    12. Re:A little more info by PitaBred · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hell, if you're really worried, make an "airlock" gate, where the outside door is free to open, but it is built like a faraday cage for the frequencies uses, and the reader is inside that.

    13. Re:A little more info by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry, that's only around 5 USD. :-)

    14. Re:A little more info by oldhack · · Score: 1

      "Secure protocols are hard to design because there are a lot of subtle errors that can be made. It takes a lot of work by a lot of smart people to make sure that none have been -- and it's even harder if the protocol breaks new ground. "

      That's a good point.

      --
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  4. PLACID by ajlitt · · Score: 4, Funny

    That's a much better acronym than the originally proposed Protocol for Automated National Identification and Control.

    1. Re:PLACID by Java+Pimp · · Score: 5, Funny

      That's a much better acronym than the originally proposed Protocol for Automated National Identification and Control.

      Or the lesser known Protocol for Enhanced Network and Internet Security.

      --
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      Kull: She told me she was 19!
    2. Re:PLACID by casals · · Score: 1

      According to this, the correct acronym should be PLAID...

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    3. Re:PLACID by Morphine007 · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Wasn't the UK working on something similar to this? I believe it was something along the lines of Popular Encrypted National Identity Scheme...

    4. Re:PLACID by Red+Flayer · · Score: 4, Funny

      But any of us with good fashion sense would prefer the Protocol for Authenticating Identification Systems with Latent Encryption Yobs over the original PLAID anyway.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    5. Re:PLACID by StikyPad · · Score: 3, Funny

      Nobody Asked Me Before Labeling the Authentication!

    6. Re:PLACID by palegray.net · · Score: 1

      There was an even earlier proposal for Breakthrough Realtime On-demand Key Engagement Network.

  5. Hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm guessing that the publicity around this will soon result in dePLACID.

  6. Yeah Right... by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Given Australian government's views on privacy, I wonder when the back door will be discouvered? Or is looking for it agianst the law?

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    1. Re:Yeah Right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Given Australian government's views on privacy, I wonder when the back door will be discouvered? Or is looking for it agianst the law?

      The back door was already discovered. That's why they are encouraging everyone to use it for free now...

    2. Re:Yeah Right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      which are? (with references)

    3. Re:Yeah Right... by swillden · · Score: 3, Informative

      Given Australian government's views on privacy, I wonder when the back door will be discouvered? Or is looking for it agianst the law?

      Look at the protocol. It's so simple that there's virtually no way for a back door to exist.

      Implementations can have back doors, of course, but that's a separate issue.

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    4. Re:Yeah Right... by snarfies · · Score: 1

      I wounder when you'll discouver you doun't need to insert extra "u"'s after every "o".

    5. Re:Yeah Right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll bet your desk, keyboard, and monitor are covered in dried cum.

    6. Re:Yeah Right... by Cthefuture · · Score: 1

      In this particular case the risk of a backdoor is going to be in the hardware. That is, the smartcard itself. You can't easily look in there and see what's going on.

      Their specification indicates they are using Java Cards and most if not all Java Cards do in fact have a backdoor if you know the keys. Often these keys are embedded in the card's firmware and can't be changed. They are designed to allow easy mass production and personalization and are generally only available to the manufacturer (or I assume other interested parties such as the government). Now it could be that they are using cards I have not seen before but that's unlikely.

      The main problem is that you have no idea what's in the card's firmware or how the hardware is put together. It's up the card manufacturer to determine that. A government could easily get them to install keys that are only available to law enforcement or whatever.

      Don't get me wrong, it can be done right and secure but right now it's hard to tell if the cards are free of backdoors.

      --
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    7. Re:Yeah Right... by swillden · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, these are off-the-shelf cards, so if there are back doors, they're already there. That has nothing to do with this protocol.

      Also, it's not really accurate to say that Javacards have a "back door if you know the keys". They're delivered from the manufacturer with an initial key set, which is generally swapped out for new, randomly-generated keys by the card issuer. The card issuer knows those keys and can use them to install and remove applets and what not. The card issuer is the true owner of the card, and has complete control over it, because they know the keys. That's not so much a "back door" as the reality that the card holder is generally not the one that owns the card.

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    8. Re:Yeah Right... by Speare · · Score: 1

      As any Scot will tell you, if you adopt PLAID to protect your secrets, your backdoor is wiiiide open.

      --
      [ .sig file not found ]
    9. Re:Yeah Right... by Cthefuture · · Score: 1

      Well, these are off-the-shelf cards, so if there are back doors, they're already there. That has nothing to do with this protocol.

      Uh yeah, I think we have established that. It was the whole point of my post.

      Also, it's not really accurate to say that Javacards have a "back door if you know the keys". They're delivered from the manufacturer with an initial key set, which is generally swapped out for new, randomly-generated keys by the card issuer.

      I wasn't talking about the issuer keys. There are more keys that let you in to other levels of the card hardware. This is not generally publicized and the only reason I know about it is because of how long I have been working in this field. Now this may not be true of all Java Cards but it is for every one I have seen.

      --
      The ratio of people to cake is too big
    10. Re:Yeah Right... by swillden · · Score: 2, Informative

      I wasn't talking about the issuer keys. There are more keys that let you in to other levels of the card hardware. This is not generally publicized and the only reason I know about it is because of how long I have been working in this field. Now this may not be true of all Java Cards but it is for every one I have seen.

      Well, I've been working with smart cards in general for over 12 years, and with Javacards ever since they've existed, including having done some work on the JCOP operating system (IBM's implementation of Javacard, now owned by NXP), and I've NEVER heard of keys at a lower level than the CardManager keys.

      Which specific cards have you seen this to be true of? And how did you find out? It's certainly not in the documentation of the cards from Gemalto, Oberthur, G&D or NXP.

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    11. Re:Yeah Right... by Cthefuture · · Score: 1

      Well Java Cards have been around for a little more than 12 years which means you would have been a neophyte and I'm sure you will agree with me that beginners in this field have a huge learning curve.

      You're not going to find it in the documentation. Like I said, it's not publicized because obviously this is not something the manufacturers want people to know about. There are two ways I usually find out about this. One is when I'm working for the hardware manufacturer and I get to see the details at the lowest level. The other is when I have problems with a card and the manufacturer ends up needing to give me tools that do stuff to the card that should not be possible. In general though you won't find many people that know about this stuff.

      I'm afraid you'll have to take my word for it because I'm bound by NDA for anything more specific. Or don't take my word for it. I don't care really, it just secures my job position that much more. ;)

      --
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    12. Re:Yeah Right... by swillden · · Score: 1

      Well Java Cards have been around for a little more than 12 years

      The 1.0 spec will be 13 this summer, but no one took it seriously until 2.0, which will be 12 this summer, and the first significant implementations weren't until a couple years after that.

      I'm afraid you'll have to take my word for it because I'm bound by NDA for anything more specific.

      Looks like you already violated your NDAs. You may be screwed... if anyone believes you.

      How about a little test: What kind of hat does Klaus Gungl wear? No NDA violation worries there.

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    13. Re:Yeah Right... by trawg · · Score: 1

      I was going to mod you down, but I thought education might be better - the Australian government has pretty decent views on privacy. More information is available on the privacy site, but to the best of my knowledge our laws are pretty good for keeping your personal data private.

      I suspect you're getting mixed up with the Australian Internet filtering thing, which is a censorship issue, not a privacy issue. AFAIK, under Australian privacy laws, there's no privacy implications in this stupid filter scheme.

    14. Re:Yeah Right... by kestasjk · · Score: 1

      I worked at Centrelink (Australia's welfare agency) and they do have pretty solid privacy laws. Also their smart card auth was remarkably high-tech for an agency which uses a 70's era IBM database, Lotus 1-2-3, etc..

      The problem was always remembering to log out: When you always have to get up to get something it's hard to remember to lock your computer every time, when you know that you have to unlock your smart-card authenticator first, then type a password from that into your computer to unlock it. This makes it more tempting to leave without locking for short periods..

      --
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    15. Re:Yeah Right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trick question. He doesn't, He's too proud of his hair.

    16. Re:Yeah Right... by swillden · · Score: 1

      LOL. He is indeed proud of his hair. But he's also very proud of his hats.

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  7. Mmmh by Britz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Here, have my lock and key. Nobody will be able to get into your home. Except, maybe, me :-)"

    1. Re:Mmmh by MobyDisk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They aren't giving a way the lock and key. They are giving away a design for locks and keys.

  8. I laugh ... by Morphine007 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... when an organization claims that they're going to provide something that's unbreakable

    The claim is usually an open invitation to reduce the "unbreakable" object to ashes.

    1. Re:I laugh ... by PetriBORG · · Score: 1

      Of course it will be broken in some ways, but this does sound like it would be an improvement over the current set of problematic ID systems. I mean if an ID with protection in depth that was actually cryptographically secure could be created... Well lets just say I would feel a lot better using it in a more wide spread area (think credit cards / money transfers, or more creative things).

      --
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    2. Re:I laugh ... by Morphine007 · · Score: 1

      Possibly. If nothing else, claiming that it's unbreakable will be a good way of getting droves of cryptographers to do everything in their power to rip the algorithms and protocols to shreds. Then at least, if v1.0 is crap, v2.0 might be better.

    3. Re:I laugh ... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The claim is usually an open invitation to reduce the "unbreakable" object to ashes.

      Unbreakable, not unburnable...

      Inflammable Means Flammable? What A Country!

      Here's the relevant snippet from TFA:

      Centrelink documents reported the hackers cannot break the PLAID protocol because it uses two cryptographic algorithms in its scrambling process in rapid succession -- typically less than a quarter of a second -- whereas other systems use a single algorithm.

      "PLACID is the only system that preserves the privacy of the cardholder from ID leakage. Other systems 'talk' from card to mainframe using easily captured personal information and unique identifiers in the ID-authentication process," the documents reported. Centrelink claims hackers cannot read query data between the terminals and smartcards even if it is intercepted because of the scrambling feature.

      Does anyone know enough about PLACID and double encryption to know if double encryption is being used meaningfully here, or if it is still vulnerable to a MITM attack?

      --
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    4. Re:I laugh ... by KeX3 · · Score: 1

      "Now, the word 'unblowupable' is thrown around a lot these days...."

    5. Re:I laugh ... by Morphine007 · · Score: 1

      Someone posted a link to a briefing above. It's using SHA1, RSA and AES. Those are typically fairly solid algorithms (though there's a theoretical weakness in SHA1, but no exploit for it that I'm aware of). So the use of a fast symmetric cipher (AES) to handle comms after a slow asymmetric cipher (RSA) is used to handle password negotiation is known to be solid. However, the devil, as always, is in the details, and the powerpoint presentation is fairly thin on those.

    6. Re:I laugh ... by mark-t · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Meh.... unbreakable encryption is easy, or so close to it that the difference is largely irrellevant:
      1. Find any two nice and large prime numbers and publish them. Call them A and B. Call their product C. Let n = one less than the number of bits in C.
      2. Both the source and destination can pick any number that is coprime to (A-1)*(B-1), call them Xs and Xd. They do not share this information.
      3. The source and destination then compute Ys and Yd, respectively, such that their own X*Y is congruent to 1 mod (A*B). They do not share this information.
      4. The source takes n bits from the data, D, and applies the following transform: D = D ^ Xs mod C. This data is transmitted.
      5. The destination then applies the transform D = D ^ Xd mod C and transmits that back to the source.
      6. The source applies the transform D = D ^ Ys mod C and transmits that to the destination
      7. The destination finally applies D = D ^ Yd mod C, and in this final transform retrieves the unencrypted data.

      This allows one to completely securely transmit up to n bits of data from a source stream, and because the source and destination can pick new X and Y values with every transmission, and unencrypted data is never found on any transmitted data stream. The likelihood of breaking it is genuinely 1 in 2^n and can only be broken by brute force attack. Factoring methods will not break the encryption because what would normally be associated as a public/private key pair (X,Y) in some other encryption protocols is never shared with the other party.

    7. Re:I laugh ... by smallfries · · Score: 5, Informative

      That looks familiar but I can't remember the name, what scheme is it?

      The likelihood of breaking it is genuinely 1 in 2^n and can only be broken by brute force attack.

      That's not strictly true. Although the discrete log problem is hard it is still a computational assumption. Proving that 2^n is a lower bound would be a significant achievement. This scheme is only "unbreakable" in the sense that RSA is - breaking it requires solving a problem that we suspect, but are unable to prove, is very hard.

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    8. Re:I laugh ... by swillden · · Score: 3, Interesting

      ... when an organization claims that they're going to provide something that's unbreakable The claim is usually an open invitation to reduce the "unbreakable" object to ashes.

      This one has already been under discussion and review by the cryptologic community for several years now. It has received a lot of attention by the top academic cryptographers, as well as by government organizations like the NSA.

      Never say never, and I'm sure the "unbreakable" word came from management or from news agencies, not the authors of the protocol, but I'll be very surprised if this is broken.

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    9. Re:I laugh ... by Confuse+Ed · · Score: 2, Insightful

      3.The source and destination then compute Ys and Yd, respectively, such that their own X*Y is congruent to 1 mod (A*B). They do not share this information.

      Should that be 1 mod ((A-1)*(B-1))?

      I'm not that convinced that relying on the discrete logarithm problem (at the cost of 4x as much network communication) rather than directly on the factoring problem (like more commonly discussed PK based systems) has any additional security : aren't the 2 problems of identical complexity?

    10. Re:I laugh ... by SloppyElvis · · Score: 1

      The likelihood of breaking it is genuinely 1 in 2^n and can only be broken by brute force attack.

      That's not strictly true. Although the discrete log problem is hard it is still a computational assumption. Proving that 2^n is a lower bound would be a significant achievement. This scheme is only "unbreakable" in the sense that RSA is - breaking it requires solving a problem that we suspect, but are unable to prove, is very hard.

      Unless I am mistaken...

      1. MIN(A,B) <= SQRT(C)
      2. SQRT(C) < 2^n for all cases where n>1

      ...that can still leave a huge brute force search space of course.

    11. Re:I laugh ... by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      Meh.... unbreakable encryption is easy, or so close to it that the difference is largely irrellevant:
      ...
      4. The source takes n bits from the data, D, and applies the following transform: D = D ^ Xs mod C. This data is transmitted.
      5. The destination then applies the transform D = D ^ Xd mod C and transmits that back to the source.
      6. The source applies the transform D = D ^ Ys mod C and transmits that to the destination
      7. The destination finally applies D = D ^ Yd mod C, and in this final transform retrieves the unencrypted data.

      Tripling the bandwidth requirements doesn't seem like a very efficient solution.
      Unbreakable encryption is pointless if it isn't practical.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    12. Re:I laugh ... by cdhgee · · Score: 1

      Er, does anyone remember the Titanic, the unsinkable ship?

    13. Re:I laugh ... by Stratocastr · · Score: 0

      Should that be 1 mod ((A-1)*(B-1))?

      I'm not that convinced that relying on the discrete logarithm problem (at the cost of 4x as much network communication) rather than directly on the factoring problem (like more commonly discussed PK based systems) has any additional security : aren't the 2 problems of identical complexity?

      This is the RSA algorithm. It hasn't been broken in the last 30 years by the smartest people. Either that, or the govt.(NSA) knows how to break it and is keeping it under wraps.

      --
      Slashdot - I went there to fix their grammar that they're so bad at.
    14. Re:I laugh ... by Confuse+Ed · · Score: 1

      This is the RSA algorithm. It hasn't been broken in the last 30 years by the smartest people. Either that, or the govt.(NSA) knows how to break it and is keeping it under wraps.

      The algorithm in mark-t's post is not the one described on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSA : I read it as a varient that (using the wikipedia page's notation) is making {p,q} public instead of {n,e}, with a corresponding adjustment to the messages that need to be exchanged.

      this relies on the discrete logarithm of (d6=d5^Ys mod C) being difficult to solve from step-6 (with d6,d5 and C being known to an eavesdropper : Ys being what you need to figure out to break the encryption) - compared to the wikipedia articles RSA algorithm that more directly relies on factorising n being the difficult step.

    15. Re:I laugh ... by Confuse+Ed · · Score: 1

      oops - I should have read more closely...

      because the source and destination can pick new X and Y values with every transmission

      I see now that _that_ is what you gain for the additional bandwidth cost

    16. Re:I laugh ... by smallfries · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm not really sure what you mean. Assuming that A and B are roughly the same size, A, B and SQRT(c) will all have about n/2 bits. But I don't see the connection to discrete logs. The scheme assumes that the attacker can't compute Xd,Xs,Yd,Ys. If the attacker observes the D transmitted in steps 5,6 and 7 then he can attempt to invert the exponentiation revealing Xd and Ys.

      My head is a bit too hungover to follow through the implications, but Xs is the multiplicative inverse of Ys and so should be unique and can be computed cheaply using Euclid's algorithm. The same holds for Xd and Yd, so if the attacker can solve discrete logs (inverting the modular exponentiation) then he can recover all four of Xd,Xs,Yd and Ys. This then reveals the original D.

      In practice solving discrete logs for this type of group is about as hard as factoring. It hasn't been proven to be hard, but nobody has come up with an efficient way of doing it. Either proving a lower bound of O(2^n), or finding a cheap algorithm to solve the problem would be a significant break-through.

      The other main problem with the scheme is that it is susceptible to a Man In The Middle attack. If the attacker can intercept and alter the communications between source and destination then he can substitute his own choice of Xd and Yd and reveal D directly. To get around this there needs to be some form of authentication as well as the encryption.
       

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
    17. Re:I laugh ... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Encryption we don't know how to break is easy. There's no proof that we won't come up with a way to break it.

      Decryption (at least of known plaintext, and it's frequently not difficult to get some) is a problem in NP, since we can verify that a key is correct very efficiently. Theoretically, ciphers could be found to be NP-hard, although I haven't heard of any proofs.

      However, we've never been able to prove that NP problems cannot be solved efficiently. The smart money seems to be that there's no way, but we simply don't know.

      Therefore, no encryption scheme (aside from one-time pads and the like) can be shown to be unbreakable.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    18. Re:I laugh ... by __aaxwdb6741 · · Score: 1

      Which is a good thing. Right?

    19. Re:I laugh ... by jnnnnn · · Score: 1

      And how does this stop a man-in-the-middle attack?

    20. Re:I laugh ... by ZenJabba1 · · Score: 1

      It's a fantastic thing, this is a standards process that the Australian Government is going to implement across the agencies, and once its certified with CC for example, external parties will place trust in the process.

      Basically the government is saying "we are not in the business of selling this technology, we like it, please use it and sell it back to us"

      --
      `find / -name "*your_base*" -exec chown us:us {} \;`
    21. Re:I laugh ... by Meski · · Score: 1
    22. Re:I laugh ... by mark-t · · Score: 1

      The point of the protocol was to ensure that data sent over a channel that could potentially be monitored by many people cannot be decrypted by those people. The protocol itself is not designed to offer any assurance that the recipient is the person that the sender thinks it is. For that, other methods will have to be utilized, but there is no reason they cannot be combined with the communication protocol I described.

    23. Re:I laugh ... by mark-t · · Score: 1

      I'm not that convinced that relying on the discrete logarithm problem (at the cost of 4x as much network communication) rather than directly on the factoring problem (like more commonly discussed PK based systems) has any additional security : aren't the 2 problems of identical complexity?

      Potentially, but advantage of the protocol I described over a problem that requires factoring a large and nearly prime number is that once that number has been factored, (and it will be), the security of the mechanism that relies upon the difficulty of factoring it it is forever shattered. The communication protocol I describe doesn't have that weakness because both the sender and receiver can pick new key pairs whenever they want, without even having to inform the other party of the change, so an eavesdropper cannot ever acquire any information that will help them decipher the data stream. Thus, even when a particular transmission is decrypted (and again, I say when, not if... ), the next one will still be using completely new encryption keys, so the would-be eavesdropper has always to start from scratch.

      Obviously, and you are correct to point this out, one still has to weigh the cost of requiring more bandwidth against how important such a secure communications channel is.

    24. Re:I laugh ... by mark-t · · Score: 1

      The point isn't to be particularly efficient, it's to be secure... the situation in which it is of the most benefit is in the securing of a transmission channel that could be eavesdropped on. One could use the aforementioned protocol to exchange a different key that could be used as the basis for a one-time pad for the remainder of the transmission to keep the overhead of the protocol I described to a minimum.

    25. Re:I laugh ... by mark-t · · Score: 1

      "If the attacker observes the D transmitted in steps 5,6 and 7 then he can attempt to invert the exponentiation revealing Xd and Ys."

      This is, as other posters have remarked, the discrete logarithm problem, and is just as difficult as the problem of factoring a number with just two prime factors, each of a similar magnitude to the prime numbers A and B, as outlined in the mechanism I described.

      The primary advantage of the mechanism I described over one that relies on the difficulty of factoring such a number is that when relying on factoring, once the prime factors have been discovered, the encryption scheme is forever defeated. With the mechanism I describe, even when a particular sequence does get decrypted, the security of the entire protocol is not compromised because new X/Y pairs can be picked by either side at any time (they don't even need to announce that they are switching key pairs), and an attacker would have to start over from scratch.

      Short of using a quantum computer, no even remotely efficient algorithm is known for solving the discrete logarithm problem.

      As you have noted, this protocol, by itself, does remain subject to a man-in-the-middle attack, where the MitM is intelligent and can respond to the different phases of the protocol with the appropriate data at the appropriate time. By itself, clearly, the protocol assumes that the receiver of the material is trusted by the sender, but anyone else that may be eavesdropping on the transmission will not obtain sufficient information from the data stream to decrypt it. The potential impact of an MitM attack can be minimized by designing a second security layer that either sits within the protocol or else encapsulates it, the precise details of which would depend on the circumstance surrounding the occasion to perform the transmission.

      Here's an example... you dial somebody's telephone number, where you already know the person. If somebody you don't recognize the person that answers the phone, you will ask for the person you want to speak to. There are 3 possibilities: 1) either the person is going to say you have a wrong number, and you can apologize and hang up and try again; 2) the person who answered the phone will fetch the person you want to talk to; or 3) the person will lie and say you've reached the person you wanted to talk to. Because you already knew the person, you're going to recognize the liar so identify verification is essentially automatic in that case. If you still have reason to further suspect who you are talking to, you could proceed to converse casually until you are certain... because, as I said, the assumption is that you already know the person, so this sort of verification would typically not take long. If the identity of the other party cannot be verified to one side's satisfaction, then the conversation must eventually end without any confidential data being transmitted. Once each side trusts the identity of the other party, however, one side can tell the other that they are going to secure the transmission. When the other party agrees, they initiate a brief transmission utilizing the encryption protocol I described, over which they could transmit a key that could be utilized as the basis for a one-time pad for the remainder of the conversation so that bandwidth isn't tripled for the entire encrypted conversation. If this communication is happening wirelessly, an MitM isn't going to be particularly viablebecause it's going to keep going past the man in the middle anyways, and the original data transmission will reach the recipient before the MitM could possibly retransmit it while trying to pretend they were the original broadcaster.

      Yes, there are still some weak links in the chain, but I'd maintain that even those could be ironed out through other security measures to ensure that the integrity of the communication end points themselves do not get directly compromised.

  9. Re:It scares me when ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I guess it's perfectly OK. It withstood 3 years of in-agency cracking. Now they want to see whether it will survive in the wild. What better method than to claim it is unbreakable? If it has vulnerabilities known to modern cryptoanalysis, all the tech news will laugh and point at them - quite an easy event to spot. Some people are not afraid to be laughed at if they get what they need...

  10. What unbreakble? Fah! by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 2, Funny

    I am sure it will blend.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  11. Oh... they use two crypto algorithms by Morphine007 · · Score: 1

    ... that must mean it's secure {\sarcasm}

    FTFA: Centrelink documents reported the hackers cannot break the PLAID protocol because it uses two cryptographic algorithms in its scrambling process in rapid succession - typically less than a quarter of a second - whereas other systems use a single algorithm.

    1. Re:Oh... they use two crypto algorithms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah. It's like using two virus scanners! Doubly secure!

  12. contactless smart cards are the way to go by Lord+Ender · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Imagine government IDs had contactless smart cards with certificates on them keyed to an ID database managed by the government (for revocation purposes and identity information). Now imagine contactless smart card readers were standard equipment in PCs.

    You would just need one card in your wallet to log you in to any computer or web site, make purchases, board planes or trains... anything! No more wasted effort on having a hundred weak authentication cards and passwords. You have one strong authentication method that can't be forged, or at least not without fantastically more effort than forging a check or credit card.

    Enormous economic and security benefit.

    --
    A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    1. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by Trikki+Nikki! · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You would just need one card in your wallet to log you in to any computer or web site, make purchases, board planes or trains... anything! No more wasted effort on having a hundred weak authentication cards and passwords. You have one strong authentication method that can't be forged, or at least not without fantastically more effort than forging a check or credit card.

      Enormous economic and security benefit.

      Until you lose your wallet and the person who finds it has complete control to ruin every aspect of your life connected to said card... ...

      --
      i r in ur /.s girling up ur storiez
    2. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Especially if I find your wallet after you lose it.

    3. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by UberOogie · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And now imagine that the system is compromised, and complete identity theft is available to anyone who can crack that one database.

      --
      "Enough of this wretched, whining monkey life." -- Marcus Aurelius, _Meditations_, Book 9, 37
    4. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by Burkin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Until you lose your wallet and the person who finds it has complete control to ruin every aspect of your life connected to said card... ...

      Yes, because clearly they would have no system to revoke lost cards.

    5. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Enormous economic and security benefit.

      Yes, for just $429.95 I will sell you a very nice mask and a programmable contactless identity chip. Enormous economic benefit to me, enormous security benefit to you. Well, it will benefit you in bypassing security, and framing someone for a crime anyway.

      You still need at minimum two-factor authentication to be secure, so you're still going to need a PIN for non-trivial uses. However, even non-trivial uses could be enough to get you into plenty of trouble.

      It's not hard to consolidate multiple usernames and passwords down to a single username and password. This is done for users through any number of freely available schemes. This is preferable to concentrating them down to a single system which, when corrupted (not "if") will permit virtually unlimited abuse. I do not believe that you are so helpless that you need government to assist you with password management. Therefore I submit that you are trolling. You could call it sarcasm if you had left any clues in your comment. Perhaps you used > rather than &amp; someplace?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      "To revoke privileges to your lost card, please validate your identity by presenting your smart card"

    7. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by Morphine007 · · Score: 1

      And given the level of exposure a system like that could have (especially if it gets used as widely as the GP suggests) and the probability of a compromise gets increasingly large. Especially given how insanely "juicy" it would be, as a target.

    8. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by Burkin · · Score: 1

      Because identity theft is so hard today considering, in the US for example, you can find pretty much all the pertinent information you need from public sources?

    9. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Until you lose your wallet and the person who finds it has complete control to ruin every aspect of your life connected to said card... ..

      That's why we should embed them into peoples arms and if they start cutting those off, use their forehead!

      I read about this in some old archaic book somewhere.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    10. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And how long before using your ID will be mandatory for using any PC?

    11. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      what if the host where i log in is compromised? Even if it could not do Man in the middle attack because the session is secured from the smart card to the destination, it could intercept and pilot mouse and keyboard events and screen display so your bank withdrawal becomes 100$ to you and 900$ to the hacker.

      The trust put in the system and its centralized nature would turn any security breach into a nightmare.

      Besides, how much you trust your government with access to all your money and movement and online activity? Judging from how they make laws pertaining to IT E-voting and even intellectual property, I'd depend from the governments as little as possible.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    12. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      I am referring to a strong authentication system. The government would have no control over bank accounts or anything like that. It would simply enable me to prove to my bank that I am me.

      None of the security issues you attempt to describe are unique to smartcard-based authentication systems.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    13. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      1) PKI systmes have revocation, so you're wrong.

      2) A good PKI system would have an online photo database, so you're wrong unless the guy looked like you and you have not had your card revoked

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    14. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by maxume · · Score: 1

      Stop saying identity theft. For one thing, someone obtaining that information isn't the problem, the fact that banks and other institutions pretend that it is sufficient verification of identity is the problem (treating the institutions as if they were complicit to fraud would quickly motivate them to do better).

      Building the system in a way that requires the identity card to make transactions would drastically mitigate the problems with database violations (but you need to make sure that insiders are not issuing illegitimate cards).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    15. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by swillden · · Score: 1

      Yes, for just $429.95 I will sell you a very nice mask and a programmable contactless identity chip

      That's rather expensive. Programmable contactless chips are available in engineering quantities for less than $10 and large quantities for less than $2.

      And what good does it do to have a chip? To fake someone's identity, what you need is their KEY so you can put it in a chip.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    16. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by leonardluen · · Score: 2, Interesting

      yes because the govt. has shown such wisdom in the past by making it easy to replace social security numbers

    17. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depends on how fast you can get it revoked. You find out two hours later your wallet is stolen, and it takes another couple hours to make phone calls or go somewhere (which may require the card to get to) to actually disable it. And if it were easy enough to just call, give your name, and the card is disabled... well, then some people might be making some practical jokes by turning off someone else's card. So several hours go by while your bank account is drained and your personal information stolen. Oh, and he's already halfway around the world.

    18. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And now imagine that the system is compromised, and complete identity theft is available to anyone who can crack that one database.

      And now imagine what happens when a pissed off or paranoid system operator completely revokes access rights to everyone within the base.

      Yes, fun times to be had by all!

    19. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by griffinme · · Score: 1

      Yes, giving the government the perfect tool to track everywhere you go, what you do, what you say and what you buy sounds like a great idea. No way that would ever get abused.

      Paranoid? Maybe, but then I am amazed how we sheep pay to carry around personal tracking devices(cell phone). Now were did I put that tinfoil hat?

      --
      Is he strong? Listen bud, He's got radioactive blood.
    20. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by jonnyt886 · · Score: 1
      > Enormous economic and security benefit.

      Until your central database gets hacked, or those managing it are bribed into submission by some dubious third party for political or commercial gain.

      In theory it sounds like a perfect system, but in reality you need decentralisation to get over the fallen nature of humans - the internet is a good example.

    21. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by profplump · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The government never issued SSN with the intent of being a universal identifier.

    22. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by leonardluen · · Score: 1

      They have also never put a stop to it after the practice began

    23. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by Burkin · · Score: 1

      Depends on how fast you can get it revoked...So several hours go by while your bank account is drained and your personal information stolen. Oh, and he's already halfway around the world.

      And this is any different than if someone steals your wallet today, how?

    24. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by Terri416 · · Score: 1

      How do you revoke your ID card without establishing your ID?
      How do you establish your ID without your ID card?
      How long does it take to empty your savings account and max out your credit?

      This is one reason why you should have separate cards for identity and authorization (purchases/bank accounts/etc), and why you should keep your ID card in a safe place, where it won't get stolen along with your DoStuff[TM] Card in your pocket.

    25. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Yes thats how New Zealand lost a few of its passports. Thankfully someone spotted a problem and made a call to the police. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Israel-New_Zealand_spy_scandal

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    26. Re:contactless smart cards are the way to go by Trikki+Nikki! · · Score: 1

      Until you lose your wallet and the person who finds it has complete control to ruin every aspect of your life connected to said card... ...

      Yes, because clearly they would have no system to revoke lost cards.

      Clearly your world is black and white. Have you never heard of someone who was the victim of identity theft? Maybe someone should have let them know that if your wallet is stolen you can call and cancel cards and what not. I bet they never ever thought of that. Because since it is clearly common sense, they never would have encountered problems if they dealt with it as efficiently as you would have.

      --
      i r in ur /.s girling up ur storiez
  13. Surviving design... by knifeyspooney · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...which withstood three years of design and testing by Australian and American security agencies

    Anything that withstands three years of attempted government design must be robust indeed.

  14. PLAID 6 Protocol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    * Uses existing off-the-shelf symmetric and asymmetric crypto algorithms (SHA1, AES 256, RSA 1024, RSA 1984) tied together via the PLAID protocol
    - Note - Neither SHA256 nor ECC are used at this time because production cards are either not obtainable from all vendors nor do they achieve the required performance, (in spite of theoretical advantage of ECC)
    - Note - RSA 1984 is a trade off between performance and security, and ensuring the transaction fits in one APDU command.
    * Fast & simple - less than 1/2 second (400ms) and the Java Card - applet is extremely small (about 4 Kb)
    * Not clone-able, re-playable or subject to privacy or identity leakage
    * Same protocol can be used for PACS/LACS & contact/contactless
    * PIN can be verified when card-not-present by comparing PIN hash
    - Saves user having to hold contactless card to reader during typical PKI session
    * Mutual authentication Protocol
    * Algorithms used are commercially available on virtually all modern smartcards including Java
    Card, MULTOS, most SIMs and many proprietary cards
    * Algorithms and their selected key lengths have been tested on production cards and devices to ensure speeds are real, not theoretical

    * No IP issues - IP was developed solely by the Australian Government by its agency, Centrelink, and will be openly and freely licensed
    * Designed to be used either stand-alone or as a bootstrap into other specifications like Australian IMAGE, US PIV, ICAO Passports etc.
    * Supports multiple concurrent specs dependant on device request to card
    - i.e. Card could supply Weigand number or CHUID or Centrelink CSIC or Passport MRZ etc etc dependant on use case
    * Supports multiple (256) key sets dependant on device request to card
    - i.e. there might be a "perimeter key set" and a "high security key set" and a "LACS key set" and an "administrative key set" etc etc and the terminal device only requests the one it requires, reducing the possibility of compromise of the others.
    - The key sets can be rolled, by loading spare unused key sets (up to 255) in case of compromise (memory is the limitation)
    * Optionally provides session keys for higher level specs
    * Protocol can be registered and implemented under ISO/IEC 24727-3 and 6, and either used under ISO/IEC 24727or implemented separately

    However:
    Slightly slower than existing physical access Tag and proprietary solutions (by 0.2 to 0.3 seconds)
    - Keys MUST be distributed & managed
    * Vendors need to build key management for PLAID into existing or new key management systems. (Centrelink vendor is doing this for LACS)
    * PACS using older Weigand technologies need secure SAM devices in the readers
    * Newer PACS can utilise back end HSM devices/SAMs on the network or in distribution frames

    1. Re:PLAID 6 Protocol by GumphMaster · · Score: 1

      No IP issues - IP was developed solely by the Australian Government by its agency, Centrelink, and will be openly and freely licensed

      This is a breath of fresh air given the extent to which some other Australian Government and pseudo-government agencies will actively push to overextend their IP claims. Still, these guys primarily exist to hand out money, while most of the others are expected to be profitable "public" services.

      --
      Patent litigation: A doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction... in which everyone seems willing to push the button
    2. Re:PLAID 6 Protocol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      - Note - RSA 1984 is a trade off between performance and security, and ensuring the
      transaction fits in one APDU command.

      Is it just me, or is RSA 1984 a really unfortunately chosen name?

    3. Re:PLAID 6 Protocol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe OpenBSD and Open SSH were the starting points for this from the old Health Insurance Commission HIC project. - Both were determined not to 'pay per head' and be beholden to security vendors wanting to leach license fees in perpetuity.

      Next, their 'clients' who would use this card do not need 'gold plating' - its plenty secure, give all users would be tied to a bank or ATM account - BTW fake bank accounts are very difficult to do in Australia, and CCTV cameras will also snap you.

      One up for open source, one up for common sense.
      Which is why it probably won't be used.

  15. Withstood? by camperdave · · Score: 1

    ...Protocol for Lightweight Authentication of ID (PLACID), which withstood three years of design and testing by...

    Withstood three years of design? What the blazes does that mean?

    Boss 0: Here is all the material we have on the PLACID system. I want you to design it.
    Agent X: Right away, Boss!

    ... three years later

    Agent X: Sorry Boss. Me and my team have been trying for three years. PLACID simply withstands all attemps at being designed.
    Boss 0: I was afraid of that. We'll have to release it to the public, and see if those open source people can get it designed. Pity. It looked like a good system.
    Agent X: That it did, Boss.
    Boss 0:Oh, well. On to your next assignment. I want you to... Hey! What's this wire? It shouldn't be her*&($@#^$ No Carrier.

    --
    When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    1. Re:Withstood? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you've described the basic scheme of all government-funded projects. "First, create a project specification from which nothing can be designed. Then, spend a set timeframe attempting the impossible, and release the results."

  16. Oracle Breakable After All by tepples · · Score: 1

    ... when an organization claims that they're going to provide something that's unbreakable

    So I guess neither Oracle nor Slashdot moderation is unbreakable.

  17. FYI: For the smart card unaware by mpapet · · Score: 1

    Stories like this frequently conflate the smart card goings-on with the system functions.

    In this case, the newsy bit about the smart card is they apparently have a new protocol for authenticating from the smart card. For those that don't know, there are many kinds of smart cards including ones that have an operating system on-board. Their protocol is probably employed on top of the smart card OS. Yes, you too can write your own authentication protocol and use it on a smart card.

    The backend system appears to have new automagical features related to the status of the employee. Don't confuse the two like the summary has.

    OT, I have always thought that "the way forward" in infosec was loosely decentralized smart card infrastructure, but the powerful among us like their power optimized and centralized. Too bad two, the only smart card developers left work exclusively for gov't contractors.
    Even further OT: A 'fun' OSS project for those inclined would be to port a BSD to one of these low-cost suckers. http://www.st.com/stonline/stappl/productcatalog/app?path=/comp/stcom/PcStComRPNTableView.onClickFromProductTree&primaryheader=Smartcard%20ICs&secondaryheader=ST32%2032-bit%20Smartcard%20ICs%20for%20Mobile&subclassheader=ST32%2C%2032-bit%20Flash%20Microcontrollers&subclassid=1192.0&count=3&producttype=

    In theory, these have a crypto accelerator: http://www.st.com/stonline/stappl/productcatalog/app?path=/comp/stcom/PcStComRPNTableView.onClickFromProductTree&primaryheader=Smartcard%20ICs&secondaryheader=ST19%20Smartcard%20ICs&subclassheader=ST19%2C%20Crypto-Processor%20Solutions&subclassid=1118.0&count=4&producttype=

    --
    http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
  18. Spaceballs by GordonCopestake · · Score: 3, Funny

    Dark Helmet: Yes, we're gonna have to go right to ludicrous speed... Lonestar: It's Spaceball 1. Barf: They've gone to plaid! ...

    1. Re:Spaceballs by PGOER · · Score: 1

      Dark Helmet: Buckle This!! Ludicrous Speed Go!

      --
      I am not a nerd, I just play one in real life. My avatar thinks I'm a total loser.
  19. Multipass by travisb828 · · Score: 1

    Sounds like a multipass.

  20. They skipped lightspeed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and went straight to PLAID? Are they crazy or just big helmeted!

  21. Worthy of trust? by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

    It seems like the NSA and other intelligence agencies around the world have a real trust problem.

    On the one hand, they make some of their living out of breaking codes. And worse, as we saw with the NSA illegal wiretapping, they're not necessarily acting in legal ways or in the interests of the general public.

    So for that reason, we citizens have a good reason to distrust anything they say, especially large wooden statues of horses.

    On the other hand, the NSA et al also have a desire (we believe) to help the businesses in a country be genuinely secure, to avoid the economic disadvantage the country has when criminals or foreign intelligence agencies crack into the businesses' computers. And the NSA et al would know that if the protocol was crackable by themselves, foreign intelligence agencies might not be far behind. So the NSA et al might really be offering a protocol that they can't currently crack in a reasonable amount of time.

    So for that reason, it's plausible that the protocol really is quite secure, even from supposedly friendly security agencies.

    I'm not sure how the average business is supposed to figure out which of those things is the case. Or is it a moot point, because at the very least, such a protocol is likely to be resilient to criminals, and as the "blessed" protocol, would provide some legal cover in the case of a data breach?

  22. It is the fastest protocol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    While some crypto protocols are capable of ludicrous speed, this protocol can go plaid.

    1. Re:It is the fastest protocol by palegray.net · · Score: 1

      I see your crypto key is as big as mine.

  23. Getting PLAID by sakonofie · · Score: 3, Funny
    I'm just waiting for the advertisement that says:

    I can't wait to get PLAID by the Australian government.

  24. Security requires processing power... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Strong security requires a lot of processing power. If this secure card can not support a lot of MIPS security is weak. That may just be fine if the secrets one is trying to hide are low value. Otherwise, it ain't good enough.

    1. Re:Security requires processing power... by owlstead · · Score: 1

      Strong security requires a lot of processing power. If this secure card can not support a lot of MIPS security is weak. That may just be fine if the secrets one is trying to hide are low value. Otherwise, it ain't good enough.

      No, security would be strong and the card would be slow. The reason for this is that the key sizes and algorithms seem to be part of the protocol. But these kind of cards all use cryptographic co-processors (AES accelerators and Montgomery multipliers for RSA), so MIPS don't have anything to do with it.

  25. Good for them by MazzThePianoman · · Score: 1

    It is nice to see a little social responsibility out there. More people should read up and adopt similar business models such as Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream which is proof one can be both successful and socially responsible in business.

    --
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Franklin
  26. Why a single card? by pavon · · Score: 1

    Consolidating this to a single card would be utterly retarded, as it provides both the issuer (the government) and entities that you do business with far more information about you than they need to know, and it greatly increases the consequences when a card is compromised.

    On the other hand, having a standard authentication mechanism which was integrated into most computers would be very useful. Then when my bank issued me a pin-and-chip credit card, I would know that it worked with my computer as well as at the grocery store. Your ISP could issue you one which you could use for signing/encrypting email (using S/MIME where they manage the public key repository, and the card has your private key). Same for all these other cards that I carry in my wallet.

    No need to get the government involved at all.

    1. Re:Why a single card? by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      Consolidating this to a single card would be utterly retarded, as it provides both the issuer (the government) and entities that you do business with far more information about you than they need to know,

      No, you're wrong. It would provide only identity/authentication information. No more.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    2. Re:Why a single card? by profplump · · Score: 1

      It would be difficult (not necessarily impossible, but hard) to allow verification of ID through government-controlled systems without either also allowing the government to tell when and where you are authenticating or being very difficult to revoke the card.

    3. Re:Why a single card? by pavon · · Score: 1

      It would provide only identity/authentication information.

      I don't think you realize how much information that is.

      Each transaction would authenticate me as Citizen X, rather than as card holder Y. Today all my purchases are made with a single use card number and shipped to a PO Box. If the authorities want to track me down using that, they can get a warrant and get the info from my credit company or the postal box company, but people I ordered from don't know or care who I am.

      The government would also have a record of everyone who checked the public key repository. It could be setup such that this isn't necessary - for example I provide my public key to the credit card company and then the merchant talks directly with them. However, for security purposes, it would be a good idea to check with the central database for each transaction to make sure that the key hasn't been revoked. So now the government has a timestamped list of everyone I have authenticated with.

      If you are authenticating to a universal identifier it makes it trivial to combine this information into a database, and if it can be done it will be. The only way to prevent information from being collected like this is to prevent it from being generated to begin with by only providing information that is needed.

    4. Re:Why a single card? by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      Today as with a smartcard-based national ID, people who want to leave no digital trails pay cash. Nothing changes in that respect.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
  27. Oblig ... by krou · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Barf: What the hell was that?
    Lone Starr: Spaceball One Encryption.
    Barf: They've gone to plaid!

    --
    'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
  28. Re:It scares me when ... by plover · · Score: 1

    Consider the source. You've got a manager telling you it's unbreakable. Perhaps his cryptographers said to him "it's a good protocol, fixes the weakness in this previous protocol, and FOR ALL YOU KNOW it's unbreakable." They maybe didn't say those capitalized words out loud, because they figured their boss wouldn't know the difference anyway. But they forgot their boss might blab it on to someone else that way.

    My point is this is the kind of phrasing that comes out of the mouths of higher-ups who don't know that "unbreakable" has a lot of negative connotations in the cryptographic community, and is usually associated with naïve or unscrupulous snake-oil salesmen.

    --
    John
  29. Sigh... I give it 6 months once its in the open by RaigetheFury · · Score: 1

    The problem is some people LIVE for challenges like this and it's an ecryption method based off of other encryption methods. That means there is only 1 piece of the puzzle to figure out.

    My concern is that they (the government) suddenly say that all ID's must be tied to this and like several posts above... now someone who knows how to crack this and tag a specific person now has access to everything about them. Banking, health records etc...

    1. Re:Sigh... I give it 6 months once its in the open by owlstead · · Score: 1

      First of all, it's a protocol, not an encryption method. The protocol is based on RSA and AES. If those are "broken" we have bigger problems to worry about as all internet encryption is based on these protocols.

      I'm not saying it is safe, but saying it will be broken because somebody will break the "encryption method" because it is out there, well, that's not in line with the current state of crypto-analysis.

  30. Ludicrous by wiredog · · Score: 1

    They've gone to plaid!

  31. Doesn't jibe by moxley · · Score: 1

    Why don't I think the US or Aussie government (especially the Aussies, given their recent track record on civil liberties and disregarding privacy concerns of their citizens) would give away an "unbreakable" form of crypto?

    My feeling is that they must have a backdoor into this, and that makes me suspicious.

    It seems to me it might be more like "Here, use this, this is great encryption, nobody can crack it." Well, it may be unbreakable - but what if they have a master key or something?

    1. Re:Doesn't jibe by dave420 · · Score: 1

      What really doesn't jibe is your desire to make assertions completely undermined by the content of the article. But as this is slashdot, I guess it's to be expected.

    2. Re:Doesn't jibe by owlstead · · Score: 1

      First of all, this is a protocol using normal cryptographic primitives. They can't have a master key to this protocol. Normally you have back doors or master keys for devices not for protocols.

      Second of all, this is mainly about authentication of their own terminals, so yes, I would suppose they have the master key. In their scheme, it's called "Master ISK key" (probably master inspection system key).

      Third of all, they don't need to give away an unbreakable form of crypto, since none of the current, widely available cryptographic algorithms is insecure when used with sufficient rounds/block sizes/key sizes.

      Or, in short, you're talking shit.

    3. Re:Doesn't jibe by moxley · · Score: 1

      Point taken; my bad.

      Guess that will teach me to post without giving TFA a proper read.

  32. Bad idea to combine ID with payment by TheLink · · Score: 1

    It is bad "hygiene" to combine ID with payment.

    It is better to have at least two types of cards. One for official ID - which should rarely leave my sight.

    And one for payment, which I could pass to someone else for a short time.

    So if something happens to the payment card or cert (damaged or lost), I can apply for another payment card.

    While waiting for a new payment card to be issued, I can still prove I am me, with my ID card.

    Putting that all on one card makes that hard.

    Currently, I take out my ID card from my wallet far more rarely than I take out my credit cards. So it's the credit cards that are more likely to get lost or damaged.

    A combined ID+payment card would mean the card gets used more often and thus more likely to get lost, damaged or revoked.

    --
  33. Already cracked by Cathbard · · Score: 1

    Just in - smart card defeated by a lump of 4x2 to the back of the skull.

    --
    "A cynic is what an idealist calls a realist" - Sir Humphrey Appleby
  34. Computational Workload by Cassini2 · · Score: 1

    The likelihood of breaking it is genuinely 1 in 2^n and can only be broken by brute force attack.

    That's not strictly true. Although the discrete log problem is hard it is still a computational assumption. Proving that 2^n is a lower bound would be a significant achievement. This scheme is only "unbreakable" in the sense that RSA is - breaking it requires solving a problem that we suspect, but are unable to prove, is very hard.

    Unless I am mistaken ... [Proof that search space is much smaller than 2^n] ... that can still leave a huge brute force search space of course.

    Additionally, there are a few additional reasons why the lower bound must be smaller than 2^n.
    1. The requirement of Xs, Ys, and Xd, Yd to be coprimes significantly reduces computational workload.
    2. It is statistically possible to "get lucky", and randomly guess the right results, so the strict lower bound must be 1.
    3. Even if using a bench mark like the "average time to break the code", the lower bound must still be much less than 2^n. One only needs to guess on average 1/2 of the possibilities to finish in the mean amount of time.
    4. The requirement that A and B are primes must somehow limit the number of guesses considerably, especially if n is large, because the density of primes decreases with increasing n. It just might not be obvious how to make use of this information.
    5. The algorithm requires random number generators for A, B, Xs, and Xd. It is very difficult to make "good" random number generators with computers. These algorithms are notorious for being easy to break. Bad seeds were the cause of the recent ssh bug.

    1. Re:Computational Workload by Anpheus · · Score: 1

      Forgive me for intruding on such a dense conversation, but from what I've learned about Big O and related notations, but constants are removed.

      That is, it makes no difference to say the problem is 2^n or (1/2)2^n, you assume that there may be some constant involved, but since the constant is meaningless when you're merely analyzing the trend over a large space of numbers, you disregard it and say, "Yes, it's 2^n."

      I guess that would be the only problem I have with your post, am I incorrect in this or...?

    2. Re:Computational Workload by Cassini2 · · Score: 1

      Yes, and no. Not all computational theory uses Big O notation, because you can have algorithms are better with Big O notation, but in practice are so computationally awful that no one uses them. Certain array decomposition methods fit in this category. There are some methods that are essentially unused, because n needs to be so large that no one has a sufficiently large computationally tractable problem to get payback.

      The other issue is that computational feasibility may not be O(2^n). It could be O(2^0.2n) or O(2^(log n)^2)). I would be betting on something similar to the later, particularly as when n is large the density of primes becomes thinner roughly to (log n)^2. Knocking out a divide by 2 constant doesn't change O(n) notation, and is only useful for a practical speedup. Changing the constant or formula in the exponent makes a big difference however.

      It is quite possible that with small n, like 512 bits, that the computational speedups aren't yet apparent. Maybe some of these effects really come play when breaking 1,048,576 bit long code sequences. It is just that no one has got close enough to cracking 512 bits to worry about million bit problems.

  35. 6 Months by kenp2002 · · Score: 1

    Now that it has hit Slashdot I give it 6 months before it's blown apart. Nothing pisses a geek off more then being told "It Can't Be Done"

    Ther are very angry cave dwellers that since seeing this have now vowed to make it their EPIC QUEST to crack this thing open. Do not underestimate the power of the geek!

    POWER OF THE GEEK COMPELLS YOU!
    POWER OF THE GEEK COMPELLS YOU!

    THE SPIRIT OF THE WOZ COMPELLS YOU!

    POWER OF THE GEEK COMPELLS YOU!
    POWER OF THE GEEK COMPELLS YOU!

    THE SPIRIT OF THE TORVALD COMMANDS YOU!

    POWER OF THE GEEK COMPELLS YOU!
    POWER OF THE GEEK COMPELLS YOU!

    THE SPIRIT OF MITNICK COMMANDS YOU!

    Inteviewer: So Merrick, I see the priest gig don't work out so well now what are you doing?

    Merrik: Security Administration

    Interviewer: So not much has change in your day to day life I take it.

    Merrik: Nope, but at least I don't have to deal with suicidal young priests jumping out of second story windows after I pass out...

    Interviewer: So no demons from hell this time?

    Merrik: Nope just the errant daemon getting spawned from a fubared XINITD connection...

    Interviewer: Well thank you for stopping by father.

    Merrik: No thank you THE SPIRIT OF WILL WRIGHT COMPELLS YOU!!! errr.. sorry force of habit...

    --
    -=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
  36. You are correct by Britz · · Score: 1

    It was a very short comment. The idea is, that before anyone would like to use it the crypto-community should have a long and hard look at it.

    1. Re:You are correct by MobyDisk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      From the summary:

      which withstood three years of design and testing by Australian and American security agencies.

      I took that to mean the crypto-community had a long hard look at it.

  37. Parent is fail! Don't take crypto advice on /. by jonaskoelker · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Meh.... unbreakable encryption is easy, or so close to it that the difference is largely irrellevant: [protocol] [...]

    Well, this will have to be performed over a channel which solves almost all the important cryptographic problems.

    If not, consider this scenario:

    Alice wants to send something to Bob. Both know A, B and C (why not p, q and n?). She sends out D^Xs. She receives D' from someone. She sends out D'^Ys.

    Consider Bob: he receives E from someone, sends out E^Xd. Then he receives E' from someone and computes E'^Yd.

    There is no guarantee and no way to check whether "someone" is the person you think you're talking to; they might appear to be Bob in Alice's eyes and vice versa while in reality they're Doctor Evil.

    There's also no way to be sure that the message(s) you receive from the network have any particular relation to what you sent out. Doctor Evil could, for instance, multiply the data by 2 without anyone noticing.

    Besides, doing modular exponentiation is slow like molasses. You really do not want to do that for every chunk of data; you'd much rather use those kinds of operations to agree on a (secret) key for a symmetric cipher (say, AES) and then encrypt the data using the symmetric cipher.

    I hope to god no one implements this.

    Factoring methods will not break the encryption because what would normally be associated as a public/private key pair (X,Y) in some other encryption protocols is never shared with the other party.

    And that is why all you can know is that you sent an encrypted message to someone: there's nothing distinguishing your intended receiver from anyone else. The sender/receiver has no shared secret knowledge, nor any private/public asymmetric knowledge, so anyone can do the same computations as either intended party in this protocol.

    Similar to optimization, there are two rules for cryptography:

    1. Don't design your own
    2. Don't design your own, unless it goes through thorough review by cryptography experts (this rule is for experts only).

    If you're curious about my background, I'm a crypto phd student (that I am, even if you're not curious). I want to stress: I'm not trying to make an argument from authority.

    I'm also not trying to make crypto an exclusive thing; I welcome anyone to educate themselves on the matters of cryptography. It's just that this shit is hard, and if you don't know your shit, your own designs is extremely likely to be insecure.

    1. Re:Parent is fail! Don't take crypto advice on /. by mark-t · · Score: 1
      The point of the protocol I described is not to authenticate your destination (that would have to be done via other methods, which could be combined with the mechanism I described), it is to make sure that anyone other than the sender and receiver who may be monitoring the transmission will not be able to extract any potentially confidential information from it.

      As some other commenters to my post have remarked, the algorithm bears substantial similarity to RSA, the most significant differences being that the prime factors are actually published, neither side actually shares its public/private key pairs with anybody else, and both sides utilize both halves of their own keys at different stages of the data stream. This particular algorithm's security comes not from the difficulty of factoring an almost prime number, but from the difficulty in finding integer values of x that satisfy the congruency A is congruent to D^x mod C, when the magnitude of C itself is very large. Further, because new pairs can be picked by each side for every transmission, one cannot utilize knowledge from a previous transmission to decrypt a new session, so a single security breach does not render the algorithm useless for later transmissions.

    2. Re:Parent is fail! Don't take crypto advice on /. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I always thought a man in the middle attack sounded sexy.

    3. Re:Parent is fail! Don't take crypto advice on /. by jonaskoelker · · Score: 1

      This particular algorithm's security comes not from [...]

      Agreed, you rely on the strong RSA assumption.

      Further, because new pairs can be picked by each side for every transmission, one cannot utilize knowledge from a previous transmission to decrypt a new session, so a single security breach does not render the algorithm useless for later transmissions.

      Don't you get the same thing with any good ol' block cipher mode-of-operation? That individual blocks don't leak anything about any other block?

      Okay, so you don't make assumptions about block cipher security, you only make the strong RSA assumption. Is that really worth paying a heavy performance penalty for?

  38. That's the wrong complaint about SSNs by jonaskoelker · · Score: 1

    [discussing key revocation] yes because the govt. has shown such wisdom in the past by making it easy to replace social security numbers

    The real failure is not the lack of revocation of SSNs.

    Consider this hypothetical security protocol for proving that you are who you claim: you tell them a name, an address and an SSN. The verifier looks up in the person database under your SSN and checks that your claimed name and address matches what the database says.

    You have to revoke your SSN after every single use, because otherwise the verifier can "prove" they're you.

    The real failure is in the "proving-I'm-me" protocol: it works by you revealing your "password". That is the real problem.

  39. I don't believe that! by jonaskoelker · · Score: 1

    The government never issued SSN with the intent of being a universal identifier.

    Really? What would be the problem with that? Isn't that exactly what it's for?

    Also, there's nothing wrong, from a security standpoint, with issuing universal identifiers.

    For instance, on most online sites I have the "universal" identifier "jonaskoelker". No one seems to want to "steal" it from me, so in that sense it's universal (I can get it when-/whereever I want).

    The problem is that in most real-life security protocols, the conceptual "login form" has only a field for the username, and no password; or, alternatively, also a password field and a rule that everyone's password is equal to their username.

    That is the real problem.

  40. Unbreakable? by Anenome · · Score: 1

    Should they really be calling it unbreakable? Isn't that essentially the same as asking to have it broken so some hacker can make a name for himself? Any good social-engineer could crack this thing in a few days flat, I'm sure. As /. posters love pointing out, even if the system were perfect its users ain't.

    --
    "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist"
  41. A superlative suggestion Sir! by ewe2 · · Score: 1

    With just two minor flaws:

    1. the bad guys won't tell you about any flaws and
    2. the bad gusy won't tell you about any flaws!

    Now, I realize that's just one flaw but it was such a BIG one I thought it worth mentioning twice!

    --
    insecurity asks the wrong question irritation gives the wrong answer
  42. waste of money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Please explain to me why is the Australian government, in this case Centerlink of all agencies, is wasting tax payers money on developing secure authentication protocols for contactless smartcards- I mean is this really their job??? Why do they think they should be doing this??? Firstly, it is the role of private sector and IT industry to provide such solutions to meet the requirements of clients such as the government. It is inappropriate of government agencies such as Centerlink to think they can make up protocols, and then ask industry to implement in their products and adopt them as a standard so they can say itâ(TM)s a COTS solution. Who do they think they are? They have no understanding of the commercial realities of vendors who provide these solutions. No mention of who is actually going to implement this protocol to provide the return on the investment made by the tax payer, and which they have decided to give away for free! Secondly, I would like to know what the actual requirements were, and the justification they have for approving the funding and developing of such technology. I donâ(TM)t believe Centerlink has any reason what so ever to be developing smartcards with the level of security they are suggesting. Even the Defence Department does not have this type of technology, but at least they would have a justification. Even if there were really requirements for such a secure protocol for contactless smartcards, then there s a number of other far more superior and suitable agencies who have greater mandate and resources to research and develop this solution, namely CSIRO, DSTO, or one of the many CRCs and universities. ...just another example of agencies with not enough accountability overstepping the mark of responsibility