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Work Resumes On Virtual Fence With Mexico

Hugh Pickens writes "Work resumed this week on the five-year project to link a chain of tower-mounted sensors and other surveillance equipment over most of the 2,000-mile border with Mexico. The network of cameras, radar, and communications gear is intended to speed deployment of US Border Patrol officers to intercept illegal immigrants, drug smugglers and other violators, yielding greater 'operational control' over the vast and rugged area. A $20M pilot project for the Secure Border Initiative, or 'SBInet,' carried out in the Bush administration, was generally considered a colossal IT failure. Since that time the DHS has given the prime contractor, Boeing, another $600M. The government says it has learned many lessons and made many changes in the program since the previous pilot rushed off-the-shelf equipment into operation without testing. The Obama administration has lowered the cost estimate for the 5-year project by $1.1B, to $6.7B, mainly by deferring work on the most difficult 200 miles of the border, in southwest Texas."

27 of 259 comments (clear)

  1. It must be just me... by willoughby · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A Latina family live near me. Mom, Dad, & a couple of pre-high school boys. They peridocally come through the neighborhood selling fresh, homemade tamales. I always buy (they're delicious) and have even given them a few things, like an unabridged english dictionary for the kids in school.

    These folks are just trying to make a living & put their kids through school so they can have a better life. I guess I'm the only person in the USA who doesn't recognize that to be the horrible crime it is.

    It's not the first time I've been wrong but sometimes I like being wrong. Just ask my ex-wives about that.

    1. Re:It must be just me... by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It has nothing to do with any of that. It is about using the proper channels to do it. That's not to say that some people aren't just bigots (some are), or that the immigration system doesn't need some work (it does), but it really isn't about not wanting immigrant to get a a better life. It is about people doing things the legal way (and stopping any other unlawful activities that cross the border).

    2. Re:It must be just me... by FudRucker · · Score: 5, Insightful

      i agree, i work in the construction trade and done so for most my adult life, all the mexicans i see are among the best workers there are, they show up everyday on time and do great work and are pleasant people to be around, i can understand wanting to stop the violence on the border but stopping people that want to make an honest living is a crime in it self, i think the playing field in the US should be made level so the US citizens that need/want to work can do so without being undercut by corrupt US businesses that exploit the mexican laborers just to improve their profits = more US citizens out of work...

      --
      Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
    3. Re:It must be just me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'm so absolutely SICK and TIRED of this arguement and for the life of me I can't understand why you and others keep lumping two completely separate subjects together.

      Immigration =/= Illegal Immigration. I FULLY support immigration through the proper channel. Being a supporter of one does not mean you support the other.

    4. Re:It must be just me... by djupedal · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >These folks are just trying to make a living & put their kids through school so they can have a better life.

      When you've had your SSN used by one of them and your wages have been garnered by the IRS, ask them if you can live with them...

    5. Re:It must be just me... by owlnation · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It is about people doing things the legal way (and stopping any other unlawful activities that cross the border).

      No, it isn't. It's just theater. Here's a question... Prisons. Don't get much more secure than that do you? Are there drugs in prisons? Oh yes, there's plenty. So yeah... good luck stopping illegal traffic. Good luck with that indeed.

    6. Re:It must be just me... by earlymon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I agree. And how about those latest budget cuts?

      http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/43568/title/Federal_budget's_new_'black_book'

      Each year, the administration releases its federal-spending blueprint -- usually in a series of phone book-sized tomes that must surely weigh eight to 10 pounds. And of course, the first thing most of us look for is what programs are slated for big gains -- or excisions. Well, team Obama made looking for the big cuts a little easier this year. This morning it issued a 120-page volume: "Terminations, Reductions, and Savings: Budget of the U.S. Government, Fiscal Year 2010."

      A lot respondents are making hay over legal vs. illegal immigrants. Fine. But look at our real history of our immigration laws. You'd think it would be driven by many good things - such as what our infrastructure can support and so forth. And the pundits would have you believe that. It's not so.

      First, we have people complaining about illegals using Social Security. Kindly note that the fossil records clearly show those illegals have paying into Social Security - something the pundits don't want to mention.

      They're over-running our infrastructure! Yeah. It's not the white suburban kids pushing meth, it's not the middle-aged housewives enjoying a joint in the middle of the day, it's the not smokers, it's not the cops over-reacting to anyone near a .08 a block from their home, it's not that the insurance companies and HMOs have taken over what a doctor can do in his/her own judgement, it's not that we let the S&Ls and Enrons screw us out of real jobs, it's not that our trade and tariff policies are so fucking complicated that a gaggle of Ph.D.s still can't explain it to anyone reasonably intelligent, and it's not that all of our taxes are regressive, and it's not that the biggest corporations pulling in the most money pay the absolute minimum (if not zero) in actual money turned over as taxes - and it's not as if the whole fucking engine isn't powered by crooked politicians.

      The real problem is those pesky, illegal Mexicans - with their strong sense of family and religion and culture and a desire to live outside of poverty, with a deep fear of the law because of where our Immigration Dept. will send them back to live if caught.

      Oh yeah - illegal != legal immigration ... sure, that's the real issue. And I'm a monkey's uncle.

      --
      Pathological kinda promises Path + Logical - but instead, you get stuck with pathetic.
    7. Re:It must be just me... by earlymon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But hey, you gotta love the Virtual Fence. Higher tech means it will take high tech - beginning with bribes - to overcome it.

      So, if what you say is true, then the Virtual Fence is lead-pipe cinch guarantee to make the problem worse.

      --
      Pathological kinda promises Path + Logical - but instead, you get stuck with pathetic.
    8. Re:It must be just me... by bfields · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The "proper channels" set immigration limits drastically to less than what economic forces would set them to.

      If you agree that massive disregard for the law creates problems, then, in tandem with increased enforcement, you should also support a huge increase in the amount of immigration allowed.

      My impression is that most economists believe the eventual result of increased immigration would be an increase in employment and standard of living on *both* sides of the border.

    9. Re:It must be just me... by darkwing_bmf · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "I support legal immigration, but not illegal" is it's just a cover for saying "I don't support *more* legal immigration."

      Frankly this is all really about freedom. It should be as hard to live and work in the US if you're from Mexico or Canada as it is to live and work in New York if your from Alabama (valid ID, no court orders against you). The EU lets their people have freedom of movement and labor among the Union countries and it works well for them. The NAFTA countries should have that same freedom. It would solve a lot of problems, including strengthening worker rights and limiting the "fear of deportation" factor in employee employer relations.

    10. Re:It must be just me... by fluffykitty1234 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just like when our ancestors came to America, they all filed the proper paperwork and... oh wait a second...

    11. Re:It must be just me... by earlymon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      My friend, I have a teaching degree in vocational education. Look it up - those are not so easy to get, requiring not only a concentration in a particular field, but documented years of working in that field with *strong* references from employers for your concentration in that field, then documentation of work training in industry in that field, then years of teaching as an intern at a post-secondary school. And you study things in depth the way that many teachers to not have to, such as educational psychology and - the IQ test.

      The IQ test was invented for one reason and one reason only to assist teachers. It is the quotient of your intellectual age / chronological age. It was - and is - meant to apply to developing minds. At the time of its conception, it was so that teachers could recognize those kids who needed help catching up with their peers, and which didn't need that so much. It could even be used in pairing up study partners.

      And for that reason, under the theory that it was a valid idea at the time, IQ results were to be kept confidential, so as to not be abused and not stigmatized anyone.

      It is was never meant to become some constant that follows a person around in life. If you think about it, if you have an IQ of 130 when you're ten, and nothing changes, then you'll have an IQ of 100 when you're thirteen years old.

      Enlightened educators have all but given up on IQ tests. They are not easy to keep up to date. When the IQ theories were first postulated, the developers could not and did not foresee the technological and social changes that were to come - and most importantly, the rate of acceleration of those changes.

      Imagine thinking you're doing a good job on designing IQ tests when suddenly, immigrant Muslim children as a group are scoring lower and you find one example question stands out in your quality study: they misidentify pig as the source animal for bacon because they are either unexposed to "bacon" or can prove from the packaging that "bacon" comes from turkeys. I did not make this example up, it was documented in the 90s.

      Now - your source link says that the military uses IQ tests very effectively. That's true. I've worked with them on training programs. But their tests are at least geared toward their demographic of less-privileged, post-secondary school ages, and not generalized for all possible knowledge, but specific enough for judging things like spacial-oriented thinking. They do it to save soldiers' lives, so they're pretty good at it.

      Your reference also says that IQs are validly applied to groups because it washes out statistical noise. That's true. As in, groups of post training at this Air Force base vs. same at that Army base. Or for northern-state 9th graders vs. southern-state ones.

      But, and I choose my bacon example carefully - not for comparing against races or nationalities with different cultural and linguistic backgrounds. If you follow this link from your link - http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118996255/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0 - [Ethnic group differences in cognitive ability in employment and educational settings: a meta-analysis, Personnel Psychology 54, 297-330.] then you will be surprised to find this statement in the study's abstract: We conduct similar analyses for Hispanics, when possible, and note that Hispanic-White differences are somewhat less than Black-White differences. That said, I warn the no-RTFA types (like me, usually) that this was focused to one adult-job metric, not to a whole race or anything sweeping.

      And that said, I hereby declare the following:
      1. You have abused the use of IQ
      2. You have done so against the tenets of your own IQ reference
      3. I will not believe without a lot of supporting evidence that you have anything but asinine references to peg Hispanics at 90-95, of any subgroup beyond those in prison (where they would most probabl

      --
      Pathological kinda promises Path + Logical - but instead, you get stuck with pathetic.
    12. Re:It must be just me... by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah but the EU gets to choose the countries which join. If Morocco and Algeria join the EU I would agree that Mexicans should be able to freely move to the US.

    13. Re:It must be just me... by CodeBuster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is quite simple really: we cannot have uncontrolled imigration into a welfare state .

      The United States is not generally lumped into the same category as the European Union states with their extensive social safety nets, but we are still at least 40%+ socialist here in the United States with massive social security, medicare, and medicaid entitlement programs (among others). Even now the big government entitlement spending of the past ala the "Great Society", which put us firmly on the road towards the massive defecits that we have been piling up over the last several decades, is beginning to stage a comeback with Obama and the Democrats now firmly grasping the rudder and steering us left. Of course, economics tells us that something will have to give: either we control immigration strictly (as the Europeans do) or we abandon the welfare mentality and open wide the gates to anyone who wants to come, work hard, and make it by their own hard work and initiative BUT without any safety net for those who fail. Why can't we have it both ways you ask? There aren't enough resources on the planet for everyone to enjoy the lifestyle of the average American and live in North America so somebody is going to have to do with less or without and there are really only two ways to decide who gets what: fair competition in free markets OR violence (often perpetrated by the state in the name of "fairness" to redistribute to everyone an equal portion of misery). Personally, I prefer the former rather than the later, but I predict that we here in the United States are going to learn the hard way (again) that socialism doesn't work and neither does borrowing your way out of debt.

    14. Re:It must be just me... by swillden · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nonetheless, there are plenty of otherwise necessary rules that give some people hard times, and we can't just have people doing as they please legal or not because of it.

      There's an ancient military aphorism taught to all soon-to-be-commissioned officers: "Never give an order that you know will not be obeyed." Giving orders that won't be obeyed accomplishes nothing and undermines the officer's authority. Having ignored one command, it becomes easier for the soldiers to ignore others.

      That maxim has a clear corollary in lawmaking: "Never pass a law that huge numbers of people will break". Passing such laws does little or nothing to change human behavior, but does a great deal to undermine the rule of law.

      Given that there are large numbers of people who are willing to take tremendous risks to come to the US and work, and there is no shortage of Americans willing to employ them, setting immigration quotas too low is simply stupidity on the part of our immigration system. It makes no sense to blame the illegals, who are just trying to make a living. It makes some sense to blame their employers, but unless there are plenty of Americans clamoring for the jobs being filled by illegals (and, by and large, there *aren't*. Illegals mostly do work that no one else wants to) then even that is silly.

      No, in this situation the problem is the law.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    15. Re:It must be just me... by Draek · · Score: 1, Insightful

      That maxim has a clear corollary in lawmaking: "Never pass a law that huge numbers of people will break". Passing such laws does little or nothing to change human behavior, but does a great deal to undermine the rule of law.

      It also gives you a legal reason to throw practically whoever you want in jail. Never underestimate the power of that little benefit.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
  2. It's not racism by sethstorm · · Score: 1, Insightful

    To have a well-defended border is not racism, it is border control.

    Why don't we ask Israel how they're keeping their borders secure and take a few hints? Scale up the border and enforcement. Then actually treat the border as a no-go territory, where things and people get shot at or worse.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
    1. Re:It's not racism by maxume · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It would probably be simpler to spend money on enforcing work permit laws and so force, making illegal border crossings a less attractive activity.

      Or do you also favor beefing up the border with Canada? That would be consistent with worrying about the border with a reasonably friendly nation.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  3. It would be cheaper just to annex Mexico by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    At least in the long run. Say a couple of generations, with full English immersion in schools and government to prevent a Spanish Quebec.

    Plus, it would save a lot of people a trip north and waiting until the next amnesty. They would get instant American citizenship, and people north of the current border get some say in what's going on in the deep, DEEP South.

  4. Is this equipment expensive? by atlastiamborn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How long until it's stolen? Seriously.

    --
    I never apologize. I'm sorry, but that's just the way I am.
  5. Work resumes on pissing money away by amiga3D · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Billions of dollars for contractors. The answer to illegal immigration is simple. Jail the employers of illegal immigrants. Presto! No jobs for illegals equals vastly reduced illegal immigration. The local chicken processing plant here actually warns their workers not to show up on days when the INS is coming. Their management should go to jail but nooooo.... can't have people with money forced to obey the law. That'll never do.

  6. I like them too. That's why I dislike illegals. by SuperKendall · · Score: 3, Insightful

    These folks are just trying to make a living & put their kids through school so they can have a better life.

    They sure are, that's why I support fully a greater degree of legal immigration from Mexico. But it's also why illegal immigrants should not be given amnesty, and the ones that are here now should be sent back without exception.

    Consider this, illegal immigrants make it much harder for people like you describe, to come here legally. Why should people have a shot at a better life by jumping the line ahead of people who are trying to do it right?

    That to me is why fundamentally I support locking down the border as tightly as possible, because the process to be a part of America should be as fair as we can make it and not just for those willing to pay a lot of money to a lot of shady people just to get here.

    Again, this is obviously in conjunction with a wider open immigration process that would allow a faster flow of legal immigrants - from all over, not just Mexico.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  7. Re:Landmines are cheaper by Toonol · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Yeah, it's a national border; I have no problems with a minefield and machine gun turrets. As long as it's not used to keep anybody IN the u.s., it's completely acceptable.

  8. borders vis a vis the free market by benjamindees · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I find it astonishingly ironic that the most rabid protectionists are also the ones who are apparently pro-free-market.

    That's because you don't understand the physical limits of economics and of the free market.

    The free market for labor only works in a closed system with reasonably slow population growth. Human labor is the only commodity that is self-replicating, legally protected and government subsidized. For those reasons it's also the only economic input whose supply has an inverse relationship to quality of living and, thus, utility. Without limits, labor supply would grow uncontrollably, outstripping demand and collapsing individual quality of life.

    Look at almost any third world country for an example of this in action. China and India don't need more people. They're trying to kill them off as quickly as possible by herding them into polluted cities and enforcing quotas on cigarettes and limits on children. Saturating our labor markets with an unending flow of immigrants would cause Americans' quality of life to plummet, and would not appreciably improve the quality of life in the emigrant countries from which they came, because they would quickly be replaced.

    Then, beyond any of that, which should be obvious by now, consider that labor demand is shrinking as technology improves. Jobs are increasingly being done by computers and robots. One worker can do the jobs of ten or a hundred workers of just a few decades ago. Energy is the limiting factor to future economic growth, not labor.

    And you're wrong about one other thing: Borders don't create wars. Resource shortages create wars. Overpopulation creates resource shortages. And competent governments with well-managed borders prevent overpopulation.

    I just hope that well-intentioned idiots like yourself begin to realize this before the next large-scale war is caused by China and India's overpopulation problems. Surely you wouldn't be so stupid and short-sighted as to blame that on racism and fascism when greed and scarcity are much more obvious culprits?

    --
    "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
    1. Re:borders vis a vis the free market by benjamindees · · Score: 2, Insightful

      American population has trippled since 1900. By your logic, our standard of living should be 1/3 of what it was in 1900.

      No, by my logic our standard of living would be higher if American population had grown at slower rate. In no way did I imply a linear relationship. Furthermore, I also did not imply that the relationship between population and standard of living does not have an inflection point. In fact I specifically accounted for "reasonably slow population growth".

      Besides, if we ignored external inputs due to trade (not human trafficking), our standard of living would be much lower than it is currently. And if we further ignore the vast amounts of physical resources that have been depleted in the US since 1900 we could come quite close to explaining why the timeframe you chose as your sterling example of progress through uncontrolled population growth is little more than an aberration.

      Your assumtions are flawed. It's not a zero sum game. More people means BOTH more workers AND more customers.

      Unfortunately finite resources ARE a zero sum game. And one which economists routinely ignore. More people means fewer resources, full stop.

      Energy use per capita has peaked. Standards of living have been stagnant for two decades. Technological progress has slowed.

      Furthermore, as I pointed out in my post which you blithely ignored, HUMAN LABOR IS REACHING OBSOLESCENCE IN THE FACE OF AUTOMATION TECHNOLOGIES THAT CONSUME VAST AMOUNTS OF ENERGY. So there is zero need for more workers beyond the replacement rate.

      My assumptions are NOT flawed. I am not some type of neo-Malthusian. You are simply ignoring physical reality in favor of some mathematical bullshit of which you have convinced yourself, not unlike the idiots who spent the last ten years destroying the US economy by importing Mexicans to build craptacularly overpriced houses.

      --
      "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
  9. Re:"Tear down this wall" by gatkinso · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That wall was meant to keep people captive.

    This wall is simply meant to make people use legal means of immigration, which incidentally will continue to exist.

    --
    I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
  10. Great we're spending 7 billion on a barn door. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    No ones going to read this but, the birth rate in Central and South America has fallen off a cliff in the last fifteen years. At the same time the migration of people from rural Mexico to the cities is at the end stage.

    What drives illegal immigration from Mexico is the weak job market and the emptying out of rural Mexico (because there are no jobs). Young people either head to the cities or north to the US mostly depending on whether they have relatives in either place.

    However the rural->urban migration mostly finished and the lower birth rate means a better job market and settled population in Mexico. That means much much lower immigration from Mexico in the coming years. So this is a 'problem' that will fix itself and spending more money on it it is silly.