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Why Bother With DRM?

Brad Wardell of Stardock and Ron Carmel of 2D Boy recently spoke with Gamasutra about their efforts to move the games industry away from restrictive DRM. Despite the fact that both have had their own troubles with piracy, they contend that overall piracy rates aren't significantly affected by DRM — and that most companies know it. Instead, the two suggest that most DRM solutions are still around to hamper a few more specific situations. Quoting: "'Publishers aren't stupid. They know that DRM doesn't work against piracy,' Carmel explains. 'What they're trying to do is stop people from going to GameStop to buy $50 games for $35, none of which goes into the publishers' pockets. If DRM permits only a few installs, that minimizes the number of times a game can be resold.' ... 'I believe their argument is that while DRM doesn't work perfectly,' says Wardell, 'it does make it more difficult for someone to get the game for free in the first five or six days of its release. That's when a lot of the sales take place and that's when the royalties from the retailers are determined. Publishers would be very happy for a first week without "warez" copies circulating on the Web.'"

21 of 376 comments (clear)

  1. Saw It in Music! Coming Soon in Games, E-Books by eldavojohn · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Brad Wardell of Stardock and Ron Carmel of 2D Boy

    I don't know who that is but a few days ago I submitted a story on an interview with Sony's CEO:

    In an interview with Nikkei Electronics Asia this month, Sony CEO and chairman Howard Stringer revealed an interesting point about open technologies: 'Customers will refuse to accept it unless the technology is open. Youth in particular really dislikes closed technologies, closed systems and the like. I think the failure of AOL LLC of the US is good evidence of this. When the Internet was just beginning to spread, AOL boosted its subscriber base by providing special services only to its customers. After a while, though, customers began rebelling, complaining that they weren't children. Because AOL wanted to keep them locked up in a narrow portion of the immense Internet cosmos, open technology was created. Sony hasn't taken open technology very seriously in the past. Its CONNECT music download service was a failure. It was based on OpenMG, a proprietary digital rights management (DRM) technology. At the time, we thought we would make more money that way than with open technology, because we could manage the customers and their downloads. This approach, however, created a problem: customers couldn't download music from any Websites except those that contracted with Sony. If we had gone with open technology from the start, I think we probably would have beaten Apple Inc of the US.' He then mentions that Sony has a chance to provide something that Apple can't. Sounds like somebody should inform him of DRM-free iTunes. However when asked about customer confusion over too many open technologies, he claims that the customer will always like choice so the more the better.

    Didn't get published so I thought I'd post it here as evidence that even the music distribution companies are saying, "Why bother with DRM?" Not surprising now that Amazon and iTunes are doing it though. I predict everyone will eventually pull their heads out of their asses, it just will take some longer than others.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Saw It in Music! Coming Soon in Games, E-Books by hansamurai · · Score: 5, Informative

      Brad Wardell of Stardock and Ron Carmel of 2D Boy

      I don't know who that is but a few days ago I...

      Stardock develops non-DRM'd games like Sins of a Solar Empire and now Demigod. They always make a big todo about how there's no DRM and then SecuROM (the DRM guys) get upset that they didn't use their DRM and say they'll download their torrents. Stardock has a Steam-like product called Impulse that many have said is akin to a light form of DRM, but still DRM.

      2D-Boy are the developers of World of Goo, a popular indie game that was once reported to have something like a 90% piracy rate, which was argued by many to be unbelievable, etc. World of Goo has no DRM.

  2. Encourage piracy? by Leviance · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So, the purpose is not to prevent piracy, but to prevent multiple legal resales of games ... which would only result in further illegal piracy. Sounds like a winning argument to me...

  3. Re:Just an thought. by TinBromide · · Score: 4, Informative

    You're thinking of trademarks. You have to defend trademarks or you lose it. Copyright is yours to enforce at any time unless you give it away.

    They're defending thier IP in the eyes of the shareholders. Every public company has an obligation to its shareholders, if the current command structure lets pirated copies leak out from every hole, the shareholders might get new company leaders.

    --
    Is it sad that I am more likely to recognize you and your posts by your sig than your name or UID?
  4. Play at your friend's house? Sell a game? Nope. by Gizzmonic · · Score: 5, Funny

    DRM doesn't bother me nearly as much as stuff like Steam and the death of the second hand market. Can you imagine how difficult it will be to bring a game to your friends' house to play?

    "Hey, Ron, it's Steve. Since we're going to hang out tomorrow, I suggest you start downloading Butt Zappers 2 now. It should take up about 20 GB of your hard drive space."

    "OK, what's your Live username and password?"

    "It's XXXXXX and XXXXX. My credit card's on that account, don't use it to download a bunch of games like you did last time, okay bro?"

    "Sure dude, but what if this puts me up over my bandwidth cap, you'll pay me back, right?"

    "I guess."

    "Wait a minute, I don't have any room on my hard drive left."

    "So, just delete some of your old stuff. You can always download it later."

    "Are you gonna pay for me to download all that stuff too?"

    "Dude, I knew we should have gotten Playstation, Sony made a deal with Comcast and PSN downloads don't count against the cap."

    "Yeah, and maybe we'd actually be able to download it. Looks like the Butt Zappers server is slammed right now."

    Honestly, if they try to foist that stuff on us, I'll just stick with the old, disc-based systems.

    --
    (-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
  5. Property or not? by causality · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Publishers aren't stupid. They know that DRM doesn't work against piracy,' Carmel explains. 'What they're trying to do is stop people from going to GameStop to buy $50 games for $35, none of which goes into the publishers' pockets. If DRM permits only a few installs, that minimizes the number of times a game can be resold.

    This struck me as a hypocritical position on the part of those game publishers. Either IP is property or it is not. If it is property, then there should be no restrictions allowed on whether or how frequently it can be resold (i.e. no one tries to stop you from reselling your car or your house). If it is not property, then there should be no artificial scarcity surrounding it which would also make this or any other DRM an inappropriate practice.

    It should be obvious that what they seem to want is a level of control that is unavailable to the manufacturers of any other sort of good or service. It's surprising that anyone takes them seriously. Much lively debate occurs on the fine nuances of copyright law while missing the point that what they want is to be singularly special, to wield powers unavailable to other industries. That's known as the inability to see the forest for all the trees. That's why I think it's a phony debate, just like most media discourse surrounding what should be regarded as power grabs. They are aiming at an unreasonable amount of control over the marketplace in the name of copyright.

    --
    It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
  6. Lost Sale Fallacy by bughunter · · Score: 4, Insightful
    These specific situations still suffer from the false assumption that a pirated copy is a lost sale. I would wager that very few pirated copies represent a copy that would have been sold at retail, either:
    • The person has no interest in the game, but will download a "free" copy because it's "free,"
    • The person cannot afford the full retail price of the game, or
    • The person wants to evaluate the full version, not some crippled demo,

    When I was a starving student (and associate engineer struggling to pay rent), I had a very slim budget, and would play "warez" until I could save/beg/borrow enough to buy the full versions, and I would *unless* the game sucked anyway. Now that I can afford software and music, I make it a point not to pirate copyrighted info, but I will still "evaluate" music before I buy it from MPAA publishers. And most people I know feel the same way.

    So, the real product that DRM protects is the "Turd in a Can," a product that the consumer would not pay for if they knew beforehand that they were buying crap.

    --
    I can see the fnords!
  7. Sophistry To Kill First Sale Doctrine by maz2331 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Really, if we distill the arguments for DRM down far enough, it becomes clear that the idea is to try to work around the First Sale Doctrine and kill the second-hand market.

    1. Re:Sophistry To Kill First Sale Doctrine by socrplayr813 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Really, if we distill the arguments for DRM down far enough, it becomes clear that the idea is to try to work around the First Sale Doctrine and kill the second-hand market.

      Really, if we distill the arguments against DRM down far enough, it becomes clear that the ideas is to try to get shit for free.

      Both of you are right. There's a group of people fighting for each of those extremes. The rest of us are getting drowned out in the chaos of the battle.

      --
      The confidence of ignorance will always overcome the indecision of knowledge.
    2. Re:Sophistry To Kill First Sale Doctrine by SpecBear · · Score: 5, Insightful

      My argument against DRM is that I want to use the shit that I fucking paid for.

      If it was just about getting shit for free, I wouldn't be bitching about it on Slashdot. I'd be downloading the pirated version, which doesn't have a limit on the number of installs and doesn't require me to ask permission from some company's server before I can play.

      I can get shit for free now, regardless of DRM.

  8. How'd the DRM work out for Spore? by GTarrant · · Score: 5, Interesting
    'I believe their argument is that while DRM doesn't work perfectly,' says Wardell, 'it does make it more difficult for someone to get the game for free in the first five or six days of its release. That's when a lot of the sales take place and that's when the royalties from the retailers are determined. Publishers would be very happy for a first week without "warez" copies circulating on the Web.'"

    Let us consider, for a moment, a DRM-loaded game from the past year.

    Spore.

    Its DRM was considered by some to be so limiting that some people simply never played the game. People were exasperated that, at release, it allowed only one user account per copy. That installs couldn't be "restored" by uninstalling the game (many of these things have been added since).

    OK, so all that said, copies of Spore were still readily available for download a week prior to release on torrent sites all over the world. Despite cumbersome DRM, that in some cases prevented actual customers from being able to extract full enjoyment from the product they purchased, anyone that wanted a DRM-free copy could still have gotten one prior to the release of the game.

    Lesson: It. Doesn't. Work.

    Maybe...maybe it prevents someone from taking the game to a friend's house and installing it, or the like. But it isn't preventing wide-scale piracy, even during that "critical first week".

  9. Re:DRM for DVD is bad... DRM from network is evil. by Tridus · · Score: 4, Informative

    I've got Stardock games on multiple computers right now, all at the current version, quite easily. I'm not really sure what you're talking about. Hell, the EULA explicitly says you can have it on more then one computer at once (two in Demigod's case).

    --
    -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
  10. (Tangentially...) by bughunter · · Score: 4, Funny

    (...I'd like to know more about this Butt Zappers game.)

    --
    I can see the fnords!
  11. Re:Hmmm by Dyinobal · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've been into gamestop before and opened their 'empty' cases to find serial numbers inside. Once I've something like that there is almost nothing keeping me from going to say 'battlenet' and registering that copy of warcraft as my own. They even let me download the game from their site as well. I never buy PC games from gamestop simply because you can't be sure someone hasn't already nipped the serial number from it.

  12. Re:first weeks is exclusively "warez" by gnasher719 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Pirating the game later has the same effect as buying the game second hand as far as the publisher is concerned, but by pirating it you don't support the second hand market, which benefits the publisher. I might see such practices justified for games that break the second hand market, but if they have no/reasonable DRM, I can't say I entirely agree with you.

    I think you've got that backwards. By buying used games (instead of pirating), you give money to people who bought the new game, reducing the effective cost for them, and making it possible for them to buy more new games. Say I have $50 to spend, and used games sell for $25. So I can buy one game for $50, you pirate the same game, that's it. Or I buy a game for $50, three months later you buy it used for $25, I buy another game for $50, three months later you buy it used for $25, so it cost me the same $50, but the manufacturer got $100. So buying used games _does_ support the manufacturer by making new games less costly.

  13. Re:first weeks is exclusively "warez" by lordofthechia · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "same effect as buying the game second hand as far as the publisher is concerned"

    The publishers need to focus on games that have replay value (so more people will want to keep them) and being competitive (adaptive pricing). The reason used video game stores exist is that many people aren't willing to pay $50 to $60 for a new game.

    Now if PC game companies were more aggressive with their pricing then they could compete with the used market. Just look at console games "Greatest Hits", "Players Choice", and "Platinum" titles. If a game has a 2nd hand market, many publishers will re-release the game at $20 to $30, taking the wind out of the 2nd hand market (why pay $17.49 for a used copy of game X when you can get it new for $20!).

    --
    Georgia Tech, the leader in Chia(tm) technology.
  14. Ya well by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think 2D Boy gives publishers more credit then they are due. I think publishers ARE stupid over all. I think they really do think they can win this war. They think "Well if we just keep getting better DRM, we'll find something they can't crack." I think they also believe that DRM does give good ROI, which is to say that the increase in profits is greater than the cost of the DRM. I really believe that most publishers are stupid about this, just like the music publishers.

    The problem is they see these big numbers of copies out there and get dollar signs in their eyes. They think "Man, if we had been paid for each of those copies we'd be RICH!" They are right too. Games are heavily copied. If every person who ever downloaded a copy instead paid for the game, they'd probably make 5-10x the money. What they don't consider, of course, is that not everyone would. There's a lot that people will take for free that they won't take at any price, much less a $50 price. You offer it for free, they say "Yes I'd like that." You want any money for it, they'll pass.

    However, greed is able to short-circuit logic for many people I don't think the people at publishers are any different. They see the money they could be theoretically making and stop thinking logically about it.

    Also the DRM companies push their products heavily, of course. They reassure the publishers "Oh ya, our DRM is really effective it'll get you a bunch more sales but if you DON'T use it, we'll you'll go to the poor house because nobody will buy your game!"

    Personally, I think the numbers on the Bittorrent sites tell the real story. Demigod sure as hell got downloaded a lot, because people were very interested in it. However, Spore got downloaded even more, because even more people were interested in it. The difference DRM had on downloading in that case? Zero. People downloaded if they wanted to.

  15. Re:SaaS is the Answer by internerdj · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Yeah, so every time some idiot hits the telephone pole the next block down or an idiot builder augers through the neighborhood cable line or my cable company has a hardware problem I can't watch TV, I can't surf the internet, and I also can't play any game that I've paid for? I don't use Comcast any more for this and other reasons but they charged me for a full month of service despite my cable being out for over a week. Do I get a discount on my service if I can't access this software service for a week through no fault of my own? Probably not, especially if it is some other company's fault.

    Also the moment I have to pay every time I open up a text document is the moment I stop using computers at home period and I'm a developer. There is no reason for every company in the world to nickle and dime me. I won't pay a monthly subscription to play a game I already paid $50 for and I won't pay a monthly subscription to do basic things with my computer. I also wouldn't pay for a single listening instance of a song.

  16. Re:Hmmm by socrplayr813 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I can't speak for everyone, but I don't want to connect to a server if I don't have to. Most of my favorite games are primarily single player (ie. Civilization). A lot of them have a multiplayer component, but there are tons of people that never touch that.

    For games that are primarily multiplayer, I agree that a small fee for the initial install along with a monthly fee is reasonable, but not for single player games. I think this is dangerous territory too. It could lead to separate single/multiplayer editions where they get to charge you extra for small additions to a game.

    --
    The confidence of ignorance will always overcome the indecision of knowledge.
  17. Re:Hmmm by BronsCon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Only after it's too late to do anything about it.

    --
    APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
  18. Idiots by Anenome · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Here's the problem: That $50 price includes the game's value at resale. If the resale value is $35, then you're diminishing the value of the original purchase price by making it impossible for a 2nd buyer to use. Simple, basic economics. So, if you remove that functionality, some of which justifies the $50 price, the game is no longer worth $50, because the value of its resale is now gone.

    So, the result of adding DRM to your game and not lowering your price to reflect the diminished value is that your game now appears overpriced. Good job, you've now guaranteed yourself flagging sales because of greed.

    Imagine if car companies programmed their cars to self-destruct if sold to a second buyer. It's ridiculous. The argument that second hand sales take money out of the pocket's of the producers? Ridiculous also. Just stop it, you idiotic, economically ignorant publishers. Focus on making a damn good game, one that's good enough to purchase in the first place.

    --
    "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist"