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The Dangers of Being Really, Really Tired

Sleepy Dog Millionare writes "Brian Palmer, writing for Slate, asks 'Can you die from lack of sleep?' and shockingly, the answer may very well be Yes, you can. Palmer points to 'ground breaking experiments' in the area of sleep research. It turns out that sleep deprivation can actually be deadly in rats. The obvious conclusion is that it is probably deadly in all mammals. So the next time you think you need to pull multiple all-night hack-a-thons, ask yourself if it's worth risking your life for."

14 of 469 comments (clear)

  1. Re:If I were sleep deprived by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I really wish people would take the dangers of even small amounts of sleep deprivation more seriously.

    Even missing an hours sleep could be enough to kill some poor sod who happens to be crossing the road at the same time as you miss the red lights.

    In the modern world it seems to be macho to go without sleep. In reality, depriving yourself of sleep makes you less productive.

  2. "Shockingly"?? by mcmonkey · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Who thinks this is shocking.

    We need water. Would you be shocked to find a lack of water can be deadly?

    Why would anyone be shocked to find lack of sleep can kill?

    1. Re:"Shockingly"?? by centuren · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It would certainly be a lot more helpful to have specifics about what sleep provides that we require versus, say, a rest while conscious.

      Water is a good example, where it's thoroughly understood just how our body uses it, i.e. what role hydration plays in our continued functioning.

      What is it specifically that requires us to lose consciousness to get what we need from sleep? Can it be artificially supplemented?

    2. Re:"Shockingly"?? by Moraelin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think the biggest thing you need sooner or later is REM sleep, not just a lie down. Lack of REM sleep (which, as we'll see is possible while technically still getting some sleep) can result in actual brain damage, or in the very long run even death. (Ironically, it's also produced _by_ certain kinds of brain damage.) Also, while we still lack the complete picture, it's proven that at least one type of memory isn't updated without REM.

      REM sleep also doesn't come instantly. In most people you need at least 90 minutes from falling asleep to having your first REM period. Anything under about half an hour is a sign of narcolepsy. Your longest REM episodes happen after several hours.

      On the average over a whole night, about a quarter of the time will be REM. It's safe to assume that in the long run those two hours or so of REM a day are what your body actually needs.

      But again, you don't get them in one big chunk. You get them interleaved with periods of non-REM sleep. So what it boils down to is that to get your normal quota of REM sleep, you'll actually need those 8 hours a night. You might get by with just 7, but anything less (unless you're over 70) is putting stress on your brain in the long run. You might not outright die, but you won't be very smart or attentive after months of getting significantly less.

      But if you know how to get that REM while awake instead, I'm listening.

      Because otherwise, no, you can't get your daily sleep by laying down on the couch for half an hour. You need to actually sleep. Not even from having the occasional half an hour nap. You just don't reach REM that fast, unless you're narcoleptic.

      Which also brings us to: if whatever project or job actually makes you ask yourself if you could get by with just a lie down now and then, well, ask yourself if it's worth the problems in the longer run. Again, even if you don't outright reach the death point, you _will_ lose neurons, and that tends to be fairly permanent. You might also get other problems too.

      And if you're the employer, well, ask yourself if you want to be an evil fuck. We're not talking just greedy, or just pushing them a little harder, but actual long term damage. If actual harm to some people is a perfectly acceptable trade off for a few more bucks in your (or the company's) pocket, that's comfortably in the zone I'd call outright evil.

      --
      A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  3. you will die from one night of not sleeping by saiha · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you die from 1 all-nighter then you probably died from something else (very poor health). I think most of science and engineering have been built on all-nighters so sorry, not going to stop.

  4. Re:If I were sleep deprived by Thiez · · Score: 5, Insightful

    > In reality, depriving yourself of sleep makes you less productive.

    In reality, there's more to life than being 'at optimal productivity level' all the time. Work to live, not the other way round. If you have an awesome party on your birthday but are a little less productive the day after, then the world can just suck it up. I'm not saying you should drive while (severely) sleep deprived, it's just that there are many things in life that are worth a little sleep deprivation. Just make sure you understand the consequences of sleep deprivation and use that knowledge to act responsibly.

  5. Not much of a threat by DarkOx · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't this is something that happens often under circumstances people normally experience.

    First if it was we would already know and not need to be doing the research now, to find out if can be lethal.
    Second nature probably has its methods of preventing you from killing yourself in this fashion no matter how dumb you are about trying to stay up.

    You usually cannot hold your breath until you die. You might be able to do it with some contrivance like a plastic bag tied around your neck or noose, but if you just sit there in your chair and attempt to hold your breath you will pass out before you die and start breathing automatically when that happens.

    I suspect you can't keep yourself awake long enough to die either without getting pretty darn creative.

    --
    Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
  6. Re:Hack-a-thons? No. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    hollywood business is the most union-heavy business in the country

    Only because the Republican administrations since Reagan did everything they can to destroy labor unions.

    The only reason the US has a middle class at all is because of organized labor. If the industrialists in the first few decades of the 20th century had gotten their way, workers in the US would be about where workers in Mexico currently find themselves. We'd probably all be trying to sneak into Canada.

    You really have to be ignorant of US history not to realize the importance of the labor movement. By the way, since the all-out attack on unions started, real income of American middle and lower-class workers has declined at a steady rate. If it hadn't been the ready availability of easy credit, our standard of living would have plummeted. Now that the bill's coming due you're going to see very clearly what damage anti-union policies have done.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  7. Anybody with young children... by cailith1970 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...understand the joys of lack of sleep for extended periods. You have periods - sometimes weeks on end - where you get interrupted every couple of hours, which means you're not getting much, if any, REM sleep. I know of other parents who say that with multiple young children they have periods of YEARS where everything is just a bit hazy.

    There has been some research (can't remember where I saw it) that sleep is vital for moving the day's memories from short term memory into long term memory where it can be accessed. Extended lack of sleep means that new information isn't properly transferred into the cortex and so gets "overwritten" with fresh information, resulting in some memory loss.

    --
    I intend to live forever, or die trying. - Groucho Marx
  8. Re:Rats make for lousy test subjects by radtea · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Calorie restriction, or caloric restriction (CR), is a dietary regimen thought to improve health and slow the aging process in some animals

    CR is a case where animal models are even less applicable than usual. Humans are tuned up for obvious evolutionary reasons to live about twice as long as one would normally expect for a mammal, well beyond our effective reproductive lifespan.

    The average mammal lives about a billion heartbeats. Humans live twice that--way off the scale. Ergo, assuming that life extension techniques that work on other animals will work on us is problematic to say the least.

    One of the mechanisms that has been optimized by evolutionary selection in humans to extend our lives is our extreme resistantance to cancer, which is why animal models for cancer (both causes and cures) have been so problematic over the past few decades.

    Rats are nocturnal social scavengers, which may make them a better model for sleep research than cancer research, but given how weird the human brain is compared to most other animals it is again quite problematic to simply extrapolate any conclusions from them to us.

    --
    Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
  9. Re:Lack of sleep IS dangerous by kklein · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yeah, they call it "death from overwork," but I've rarely seen Japanese salarymen work in the way that I would consider "work." I have decided that the Japanese concept of work has little to do with measurable results and a lot to do with how awful the process was and how long it took.

    When the culture puts a lot of value on suffering for your employer, it's no wonder that some people push themselves to suffer so much that it literally kills them. When you live on cigarettes, One Cup single-serving sake, and vending-machine coffee; when you are getting a couple hours of sleep a night, tops; when you are spending 3 hours of your waking day running after trains and then being crammed into them with the other exhausted, smelly people; when you continue this lifestyle for years on end; yeah, you're going to die. And you probably won't even have that many results to show for it.

    So much of the "work" that Japanese companies have people do is just kind of meaningless activity. All it does is exhaust people and turn bright, energetic college kids into the dead shells you see riding the train (full disclosure: I'm a university teacher in Japan).

    There seems to be a growing movement in Japanese society, however, that is realizing this and pushing back. The economic downturn is helping, too. It used to be that once you landed a job, you were set for life. However, if you ever got fired or downsized, you were screwed for life; no one would ever hire you again. You were damaged goods. Now, the latter is still true, but the former isn't. People get laid off all the time now. Last year a few major companies hired a bunch of new college graduates, those people turned down other offers, and then the companies came back and retracted their offers and paid them about $5k to go away. These people are now both never employed and damaged goods. Hiring only happens once a year here, so they were basically paid $5k to live on for the next year of their lives, after which they got to do the whole grueling interviewing and testing process again, this time with a lingering question about their CV: "Why was this person cut at the last minute by the other company?"

    So all of this is building up what I--and any other Western person, who is used to crap like this--can only call a healthy cynicism about employers, and a rejection of their bullshit in favor of an easier life with fewer problems. Temp agencies are taking over as they have done in the US, etc., with all of the bullshit, but all of the benefits as well. I did IT temp work before becoming an academic, and although the lack of security really was pretty scary, the pay was good and the hours were great. I wasn't a salary slave like I am now. Oh, and guess what? Tenure is getting harder to get, so I'm on a year contract anyway! Nothing has changed. Security is dead. Fuck the companies and live your life!

    I am hopeful that we here in Japan will see less karoshi as the new generation takes over--the new generation who sees that it's possible to live without being a slave to a company--and that the difficult economic conditions force companies to cut out nonessential make-work activities, increasing efficiency, and evaluating people on what they get done, not how late they stay.

    Sleep and lifestyle are important, folks. Don't forget that quality of life is the only thing you should be worried about, because you only get one. If you're having fun staying up all night working (because you might be!) then great! But if you don't like it, don't do it.

    I sleep at least 8 hours a night. I am one of the most productive people I know. I'm not interested in dying for my job.

  10. Re:Hack-a-thons? No. by PTFD5023 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We are all slaves to the god Motorola. My wife once asked why the pager had to make such a shrill tone. Told her it was designed that way for a reason.

  11. Re:If I were sleep deprived by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't think the parent is talking about parties, but people who stay up all night to get a project done. Working more productively means you can spend less time working.

  12. Re:If I were sleep deprived by profplump · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Don't you dare suggest that this question has anything other than a black-or-white solution -- either sleep deprivation is terrible in all circumstances or it has no effect on life. It's absurd to suggest that sleep deprivation might have varying consequences depending on the circumstance, and you're obviously a troll to even suggest such a thing.