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What Should Be In a Technology Bill of Rights?

snydeq writes "The Deep End's Paul Venezia argues in favor of the creation of a Technology Bill of Rights to protect individuals against malfeasance, tyranny, and exploitation in an increasingly technological age. Venezia's initial six proposed articles center on anonymity rights, net neutrality, the open-sourcing of law enforcement software and hardware, and the like. What sort of efficacy do you see such a document having, and in an ideal world, which articles do you see as imperative for inclusion in a Technology Bill of Rights?"

247 comments

  1. Avoid Firts Post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    The prohibition of off-topic FP!

    1. Re:Avoid Firts Post by omeomi · · Score: 5, Funny

      The prohibition of "I see what you did there" follow-ups?

    2. Re:Avoid Firts Post by Locke2005 · · Score: 4, Funny

      What about the prohibition of "me too!" posts?

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    3. Re:Avoid Firts Post by Isotopian · · Score: 1

      I see what you did there.

      --

      It's poetry with a beat behind it! And guns! They're like beatniks with automatic weapons.

    4. Re:Avoid Firts Post by beckerist · · Score: 1

      You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and there you have ... Rickrolling? I suppose we shouldn't disallow the dissemination of art. Or whatever goatse calls itself these days.

    5. Re:Avoid Firts Post by beckerist · · Score: 1

      Woah I replied to the wrong one. See: "Let's see..." for relevancy.

    6. Re:Avoid Firts Post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So might Venezia say, but what about Firenze, Milano, and Roma, not to mention Turnio and Napoli.

    7. Re:Avoid Firts Post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      me too

  2. Lets see... by moderators_are_w*nke · · Score: 4, Funny

    Net neutrality, Linux on desktop, Duke Nukem 4 Ever, cheap macs, freedom from malware, peace in the middle east and a cuddly Tux for all.

    --
    "XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, use more." - Anonymous Coward
    1. Re:Lets see... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's better than my list. All I wanted was a Pepsi.

    2. Re:Lets see... by icebike · · Score: 3, Funny

      All those would have made a FAR BETTER start than those suggested in TFA.

      Can we have TFA author just shitcan his silly suggestions and adopt yours instead?

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    3. Re:Lets see... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      11. The right to download as much CP as you want.

    4. Re:Lets see... by sexconker · · Score: 1

      "6. The Right to possess any information"

      thinkofthechildrennowait,you'rethinkingofthemtoomuch

    5. Re:Lets see... by Shoe+Puppet · · Score: 1

      10.The Right to have free, uncensored speech on your own servers

      What about rented webspace? Webspace providers don't have the right to censor either.

      --
      (+1, Disagree)
    6. Re:Lets see... by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      The problem with that is it leads to compromise somewhere down the line, or insane rates for rented webspace. For example, lets say I pay $20 a month for rented webspace on a controversial topic. *Insert large corporation/the government here* says that some of the content needs to be taken down. Your webspace provider notifies you of this, yet you think it is still legal. In order to maintain a right of non-censorship the webspace provider would need to provide costly legal protection for themselves because they could not take down the site without violating said laws.

      I agree with it in principle, but if you implement it, it would get broken pretty easily.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    7. Re:Lets see... by alanQuatermain · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Numbers 5 and 6, as written, could clash with non-disclosure agreements & similar. For instance if I allow someone to inspect the code for my laboriously-written software for security purposes, I'd like to have a legally binding document with them stating that they're not allowed to hand over my source code to my competitors (or indeed anyone, unless they too sign the same agreement, etc.).

    8. Re:Lets see... by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      While we can all* agree that CP is bad, the problems raise several questions on the ethics of banning information. If we can gain such wide support for banning CP, what comes next? The banning of "radical" political parties? The banning of various political commentaries? CP should without a doubt be highly illegal to produce, however the banning of information has a chilling effect on free speech. Put the ones making it behind bars, but the possession of information, even information that we might not agree with needs to be legal in a free society.

      *The pedophiles aside

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    9. Re:Lets see... by selven · · Score: 1, Insightful

      5. The Right to publish any information that is true without fear of takedown notices

      I have to disagree with this one. Secrets, like military secrets, passwords/key combinations, etc. can be very damaging if revealed. In fact, I would much rather make defamation 100% legal* than give everyone the right to publish classified stuff.

      *Not that I have much of a problem with doing that in itself.

    10. Re:Lets see... by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      Right to time-shift, right to space-shift, right to reverse-engineer, right to publish information anonymously, right to use cryptography

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    11. Re:Lets see... by lupis42 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      1. Right to access the internet if you pay for it

      -- Does my home FIOS plan (asynchronous, no static IP, servers explicitly banned) count as "internet access"? I would argue that it technically does not, though it is very close.

      2. Right to control what software is on your computer

      -- What about the related immunity from liability for things running on your computer without your knowledge?

      3. Right to copy anything you own for your own personal use

      --Fair enough

      4. Right to use software that does not interfere with anyone else's right

      --I don't follow.

      5. The Right to publish any information that is true without fear of takedown notices

      --There has to be some takedown process though, for information that is untrue. You never get to publish without any fear, there just needs to be a counter-takedown notice process.

      6. The Right to possess any information

      --So, no copyrights? What about stolen credit card numbers? I'm actually in favor of this one, by and large, but I do feel that something here needs to be more precise: possession of data is *never* a crime by itself. (A civil matter, sure. Evidence of a crime, sure. Not a crime on it's own).

      7. The Right to control your own hardware

      --Damn straight.

      8. The Right to use any device for any purpose that does not interfere with rights of others

      --How is this different from 7?

      9. The Right to remain anonymous

      --Except when violating the rights of others? Do I have the right to anonymously make false statements defaming people? (Again, I'm not opposed to the idea, but playing devil's advocate).

      10.The Right to have free, uncensored speech on your own servers

      --Except when violating the rights of others? Do I have the right to freely display images of you that I obtained illegally? (Devil's advocate again).

    12. Re:Lets see... by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

      Maybe you meant to imply this, but what about "media-shift." If you buy something on paper you shouldn't have to pay for electronic version (not vice-versa as that involves payment for the atoms its printed on), if you have an electronic version it's not illegal to put that into ANOTHER electronic format that suits your situation better. In other words you're paying for a license to content, not for some physical form.

    13. Re:Lets see... by Qzukk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You're just shuffling the problem around. For example, let's say I pay $20 a month for DSL and host controversial mp3s, etc. Ultimately, the process repeats until you get to my computer, and I find your use of punch the flashing monkey ads controversial and choose to remove them from my view of your site.

      It's currently not possible to host anything entirely on your own. Anything you put "on the internet" changes hands many times between where it leaves your server and reaches the requester's computer. Property rights suggest that any of these have the right to say "no" to this transaction.

      Personally, I'd replace your #10 with:
      10. The right to use encryption without the assumption that a crime is being committed.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    14. Re:Lets see... by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Oh, I'm all against the bullshit, fear-mogering pedophile witch hunt.

      I was just making a lulz.

    15. Re:Lets see... by Kjella · · Score: 1

      I think what I want is just a more sane application of legal standards, not absolute rights.

      1. Right to access the internet if you pay for it

      Some people should be restricted on the Internet, but only serious criminals not people downloading popular music.

      5. The Right to publish any information that is true without fear of takedown notices

      Including your stolen medical records? Military secrets? Trade secrets? Truth is not an absolute defense offline, then it shouldn't be so online either.

      6. The Right to possess any information

      How about any material currently legal to possess? Is there any reason to make Internet the free zone for everything?

      9. The Right to remain anonymous

      Been there, seen that. If you think the GNAA trolls are bad, wait until you get truly anonymous trolls.

      There's really only one spider in the web here. The reason they're too overloaded go after individuals committing violations of the law. The reason they're doing mass surveilance. The reason they want to have civilans taking over police duties, lower standards of guilt and due process, The reason they want to use DRM and signing and activations and whatnot. End non-commercial copyright. I've gotten to the point that I don't care how many artists are left starving in the streets. Let the police deal with serious cases of fraud and identity theft and terrorism and kiddie fiddlers. With a sane warrant process because you're again trying to stop a tiny little fraction, not trying to hold back prohibition. Of course the totalitarians love it too but they're not that many or popular. It's the entertainment industry and their lobbies that are pushing this. Kill that beast and we might start to remember a little bit about what "Land of the Free" means or what separated Western Europe from Eastern Europe. Otherwise what will happen is that we'll simply take that right. Not a legal right, but a practical technical anonymous solution which refuses all forms of control. I think they're going to lose it anyway, but they're speeding up towards that.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    16. Re:Lets see... by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      -- Does my home FIOS plan (asynchronous, no static IP, servers explicitly banned) count as "internet access"? I would argue that it technically does not, though it is very close.

      If it is advertised as internet, or the general definition of it is internet access, yes it should count.

      -- What about the related immunity from liability for things running on your computer without your knowledge?

      Sure, that would be nice, but it would be better done on a case-by-case basis. Perhaps not by computer-illiterate judges, but there are too many ways of making a rootkit yourself and claiming it wasn't you.

      --I don't follow.

      Basically, if you have the software and the software's capabilities, you can use it for whatever you feel like. This is to prevent software from being made that won't let you use it a certain way. Can't think of a good example right of this moment.

      --There has to be some takedown process though, for information that is untrue. You never get to publish without any fear, there just needs to be a counter-takedown notice process.

      Yes, thats basically what I meant, just worded a bit better ;)

      --So, no copyrights? What about stolen credit card numbers? I'm actually in favor of this one, by and large, but I do feel that something here needs to be more precise: possession of data is *never* a crime by itself. (A civil matter, sure. Evidence of a crime, sure. Not a crime on it's own).

      No, not a lack of copyright but basically, I can't be charged for possessing information, such as I can't be charged for having BrittneySpears.mp3 or SuperMarioMegaROM.smc on my computer. Downloading things might be still considered a civil matter though, but after you downloaded them you are free.

      For stolen credit card numbers, it can be used as evidence, but just because you have a set of random numbers you can't be charged.

      --How is this different from 7?

      Hardware rather then software. Basically its so I can use any phone on any network that its possible, etc.

      --Except when violating the rights of others? Do I have the right to anonymously make false statements defaming people? (Again, I'm not opposed to the idea, but playing devil's advocate).

      No, because you have no right to defame. However you still have the right to be anonymous. Similar to how I might have a right to wear a red shirt, I have the right to wear the red shirt, but I can't rob a bank with the red shirt on because robbing a bank is still illegal, red shirt or no.

      --Except when violating the rights of others? Do I have the right to freely display images of you that I obtained illegally? (Devil's advocate again).

      Sure, but the act of taking them illegally may be evidence to be used against you.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    17. Re:Lets see... by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      I don't really understand what you are meaning. ISPs are given safe harbor, so basically it means that if I'm downloading Metallica_new_song.mp3, they can't sue my ISP.

      Hosting providers are given a sort of limited safe harbor where they aren't responsible but must take down content that isn't legal. My ISP that I use to host my site is free of whatever I choose to have my site on (for the most part, some governments and corporations attempt to convince them to take down certain sites though), the hardware is also mine. I'm the only one that can get sued if they pursue a lawsuit. A hosting company that doesn't comply with takedown notices can be sued too, legal counsel is expensive. So most of the time its economical for hosting companies to simply force the takedown notices.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    18. Re:Lets see... by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      So we should pay for atoms but not for electrons ? This is discrimination against nucleus-free matter ! I protest vehemently against this anti-american behaviour ! Electrons around the world ! Follow me into a strike that will leave the world on its knees !

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    19. Re:Lets see... by againjj · · Score: 1

      1. Right to access the internet if you pay for it

      We have this now, except for those who are wards (i.e. children or prisoners), or those who can't as a result of a court proceeding.

      2. Right to control what software is on your computer

      This is vague. In one sense, everyone has this -- install Linux or whatever. Or are you want the ability to replace each and every dll on your Windows machine individually? And to get around this, manufacturers can lease you a computer for 99 years for a one-time up-front fee.

      3. Right to copy anything you own for your own personal use

      Worthy ideal. Goes against some laws such as it being illegal to duplicate keys that have "do not duplicate" stamped on them.

      4. Right to use software that does not interfere with anyone else's right

      Define "right". The right of the producer to control who can have what is produced? The right to observe behavior to catch terrorists? The right to prevent illegal behavior?

      5. The Right to publish any information that is true without fear of takedown notices

      Define "true". Can I duplicate the entire Encyclopedia Britannica on my website?

      6. The Right to possess any information

      Like top secret materials? Like child porn? Trade secrets? Information that you have a contractual obligation to destroy (see NDAs, CC security codes, etc.)?

      7. The Right to control your own hardware

      Define "control". You want only fully open source hardware? Or simply no proprietary interfaces? No "trusted computing" chip?

      8. The Right to use any device for any purpose that does not interfere with rights of others

      Again, define "right".

      9. The Right to remain anonymous

      Anonymous how? Do you with to make it impossible for someone breaking into the Pentagon's computer systems to be found? No traceroute, no DCHP logs, no way to tell who was where? Or that anyone can use any computer/website/ftp site/service without a login?

      10.The Right to have free, uncensored speech on your own servers

      This could potentially come in conflict with the anonymous right above. Also, this is the first amendment of the US constitution. Or are you suggesting the first amendment is not far reaching enough? Though it occurs to me that you may not be from the US.

      Have all these and we would have a good start.

      I actually think that you have a number of good ideas here, but not all are practical, and the rest really would need fleshing out.

    20. Re:Lets see... by turtleAJ · · Score: 1

      11. Profit!

    21. Re:Lets see... by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      I've got a better idea - limit the letter of CP laws to punishing the production and distribution of exploitive CP. The current CP that isn't under that umbrella should still be illegal, but not to the absurd degree that is applied today. Basically, this acknowledges that most so-called CP is produced by teenagers for teenagers and should not be used to destroy their lives. At worst, you destroy the images/videos and write them a ticket.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    22. Re:Lets see... by Matt_Bennett · · Score: 1

      I like your list- I'd also like to see "All Information that is collected about me without anonimization by any private entity can be viewed"

      If it is truly deleted, that's all right. If people keep the information around about me, I want access to it.

    23. Re:Lets see... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. Right to access the internet if you pay for it

      Redundant.

      2. Right to control what software is on your computer

      If I find malware, I can remove it from my box without anyone stopping me. I think you mean "right to keep asshats from installing things I don't want on my computer without my permission". There are already ways of dealing with this. Granted, I think the dollar amount should be lowered.

      3. Right to copy anything you own for your own personal use

      If by "copy" you mean "make a digital copy", and if by "anything you own" you mean "any digital data", then you can do that already. Who's going to know? I think you mean something a little broader than this; perhaps "the right to make functioning archival copies of my software" (the DRM issue) or "the right to copy my music onto a CD so I can listen to it in the car" (the fair use issue). Please be more specific.

      4. Right to use software that does not interfere with anyone else's right

      Anyone else's right... to use software? To go to church? Anyone else's rights in general? Not sure I know what this means.

      5. The Right to publish any information that is true without fear of takedown notices

      You don't have a right to live without fear, sorry. However, you already have the right to publish true statements (within reason). Sorry, classified info and trade secrets don't qualify, among other things.

      6. The Right to possess any information

      See that bit above about classified info and trade secrets. Also, a ton of other stuff I can't think of off the top of my head, but I'm sure you get my drift.

      7. The Right to control your own hardware

      Agreed.

      8. The Right to use any device for any purpose that does not interfere with rights of others

      See #4.

      9. The Right to remain anonymous

      Ahh, now we've got a real debate. Anonymity has its uses, and I generally support it, but I don't support anonymous crime. If everyone on the internet were truly anonymous, it would be as if some great Id were suddenly released upon the world. Can you imagine a world where EVERYONE was anonymous?

      10.The Right to have free, uncensored speech on your own servers

      Again, you have this right. You can publish anything you want in the US (within First Amendment bounds). You also have to deal with the consequences if someone doesn't like what you've said about them. If you're talking about Google and Yahoo self-censoring, they're businesses interested in profit. If they want to keep making money, they have to abide by local laws.

      tl;dr: use fewer universal quantifiers, like "any" and "all" -- they get you into a lot of trouble.

      Posting anonymous because, well, it's funny in light of #9. Also, your list sucks and you suck for writing it. [/irony]

    24. Re:Lets see... by GrumblyStuff · · Score: 1

      Child porn interferes with the rights of said children. I believe the law covers that.

      Or is he saying, their rights were trampled but I didn't do it and the images/video already exist and will exist?

    25. Re:Lets see... by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 3, Funny

      ...cuddly Tux for all.

      Yeah, that'll happen.

      Everybody knows cuddly Tux isn't ready for neck-space! They are still only good for you stuffed animal geeks who prefer their own hand-sewn plushies to mass produced teddybears and beanie babies. Open source sewing machines are helping, but there are still too many situations where hand-sewing is the only option, and that is just not acceptable.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    26. Re:Lets see... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a pedophile, you insensitive clod!

    27. Re:Lets see... by grcumb · · Score: 1

      Net neutrality, Linux on desktop, Duke Nukem 4 Ever, cheap macs, freedom from malware, peace in the middle east and a cuddly Tux for all.

      I want my fucking pony, you insensitive clod!

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    28. Re:Lets see... by khope · · Score: 1

      There are some nice points here.

      I would like to have at least the following:

      1) The individual right to own, keep, bear and use technology and technical devices shall not be infringed nor shall such infringements by makers or sellers be afforded any protection in law or through the courts.

      2) Communication data streams and storage shall be entitled to the presumption of the expectation of privacy. No search, interception, or other breach of privacy shall be permitted absent a warrant and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the things to be seized. Nor shall any data or information obtained by an unwarranted breach be admissible in any legal proceeding.

      [I would also like to craft this so that evidence of unrelated crimes is excluded because I want narrow and warranted searches.]

      3) The right of individuals to enhance memory by recordings of any interaction of which they are a part, whether witness or participant, shall not be infringed, nor shall any attempted infringement be enforceable at law.

      4) No person shall be compelled to reveal passwords or cryptographic keys of any sort nor shall failure to reveal such passwords or keys be permitted in any proceeding to imply guilt.

      In addition, I would like Internet access to be defined as symetric--I can run servers--not necessarily in terms of speed, but in terms of permissions.

    29. Re:Lets see... by NetSettler · · Score: 1

      This list of ten is not bad. Some terms are a bit vague. What "one's own hardware" is or "any device" is might require refinement. Item 9 is controversial and its presence would likely sink the proposed bill of rights, losing the others with it; I'd leave it out even though I like it conceptually for most purposes. There are cases where anonymity breach is important to allow; they're just rare. Item 10 might have a minor glitch over the definition of "speech", but no worse than the First Amendment already has.

      When I saw the original article's title, I wanted to rush to promo my thoughts on Universal Business Access. Looks like its article 2 addresses it a different way, which is probably mostly ok. But the original article has problems for me in Articles 3 and 4. Article 3 looks well-meaning but likely to be full of problems; I can easily imagine a need for exceptions. As for Article 4, if someone's not being forced to buy the closed source software, I don't see why more than just market dynamics is required. Putting these kinds of things in a Bill of Rights seems a little off. Mostly I think rights should be things that can be asserted against the state (or a state-like monopoly provider like an ISP or cable provider), not against individuals and they shouldn't be full of details that might need to change.

      Your list of 10 looks to be in better syntactic form for a bill of rights.

      --

      Kent M Pitman
      Philosopher, Technologist, Writer

    30. Re:Lets see... by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Yes, but we could put restrictions on what being an Internet Service Provider means. E.g. no blocking without explicit opt-in by the end user, to allow opt-in parental filters. Sure, property rights says anyone is free to block anything at any link, but if they do they can call it "Partialnet Service Provider" or whatever, but not Internet access.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    31. Re:Lets see... by Mystra_x64 · · Score: 1

      Fucking pony? Are you sure you want a pony for this?

      --
      Quick way to get 30% Funny 70% Troll: defend Opera browser on /.
    32. Re:Lets see... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sheep get boring, sometimes you gotta experiment.

    33. Re:Lets see... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      While we're at it...

      ... GNU/Hurd on desktop, Duke Nukem 4 Ever ...

      Fixed that for you.

    34. Re:Lets see... by sjames · · Score: 1

      Point number one needs to be modified/expanded upon.

      The right to access the internet should be absolute though the ability to exercise that right may require paying someone. In theory, if I can get a pipeline to a public peering point, I should have an absolute right to connect and peer on equal status with other tier ones. Most people will opt to pay an ISP for transit to the internet out of simple practicality.

    35. Re:Lets see... by sjames · · Score: 1

      You can't possibly control that for point 5 to have any value. The engineers who work for your competition have the right to examine your source code if it conducts or supports law or public policy.

      That does NOT mean that they have the right to use your source code for their own commercial gain, just that they have a right to review it. If you don't like those terms, then don't write code that supports law or public policy.

      Implicit in that is their right to talk about their findings including publication.

    36. Re:Lets see... by sjames · · Score: 1

      The right to uncensored speech applies to the provider as well. That is, it shouldn't have an expense for legal defense because there is no legal principle by which the content needs to be taken down.

      Probably that needs to be enumerated as well. Essentially, no person or business can be drafted into law enforcement. If the courts want the content down, they can order the publisher to take it down, but not the provider. What it amounts to is codifying common carrier status as a fundamental right.

    37. Re:Lets see... by Redfeather · · Score: 1

      No, not a lack of copyright but basically, I can't be charged for possessing information, such as I can't be charged for having BrittneySpears.mp3 or SuperMarioMegaROM.smc on my computer. Downloading things might be still considered a civil matter though, but after you downloaded them you are free.

      So... It's only illegal if you get caught in the act? We don't expect this to cause issues? I didn't monitor you downloading the mp3, but you have on your computer a file identical to three thousand others, and not a Britney CD in your ownership? Are you arguing this does not fall under the definiton of "stolen property"? All arguments about imaginary property aside, of course.

      --
      Those things you're doing with that stuff you just bought? That's not what it's for! -
    38. Re:Lets see... by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      As Bell Canada is demonstrating by throttling other ISPs in Canada, the company you buy "internet access" from does not necessarily have the final say in what you get.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    39. Re:Lets see... by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      ISPs are given safe harbor

      By law, but not by "right". If the law changes, your proposed "right" gains a giant, gaping hole.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    40. Re:Lets see... by maroonhat · · Score: 1

      Electrons around the world ! Follow me into a strike that will leave the world on its knees !

      do you have an enormous positive charge?

      --
      The more I learn about Windows the more I am surprised it runs at all
  3. Laws by Narpak · · Score: 2, Funny

    Thu shall not commit spam.

  4. The right to bear arms by davidwr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Er, the right to defend yourself against the evils of viruses, malware, and if I dare to be redundant, DRM.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:The right to bear arms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and users.

    2. Re:The right to bear arms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget FSF zealots, Linux advocates, and COLA trolls!

    3. Re:The right to bear arms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Normally I don't support anti-malware types or laws since they are nothing less than vigilantes who don't get it. However I have no issue with a lawless web so if an anonymous user(s) want to duke it out with the malware authors/script kiddies/whoever I say go for it!

    4. Re:The right to bear arms by Redfeather · · Score: 1

      If you want to go all PvP on this, go right ahead. I don't want to be stuck in the crossfire, and without some form of lw or regulation, I've got no way to remove myself from the arena without leaving the net, which is a growing non-option. There will never be a sandbox for malware devs to play in without affecting people who flat out don't want to be involved. I don't care about you and your beef with FSF OR MS. It's none of my business, I'm just a user. ALl I want is a law that enables me to say "Leave me the frack alone and let me have my level playing field."

      --
      Those things you're doing with that stuff you just bought? That's not what it's for! -
    5. Re:The right to bear arms by LinuxOverWindows · · Score: 1

      You mean the right not not run Windows or Mac lol Long Live Tux the LLT, Free Software for all

  5. Nothing by digsbo · · Score: 5, Insightful
    We don't need it. The bill of rights already protects our personal rights and limits the federal government's powers over the states and the citizens.

    Oh, wait, the Constitution is routinely ignored by the Federal Government. So I'm sure a non-binding technology bill of rights will have a huge impact on limiting the Federal Government's actions...

    1. Re:Nothing by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The bill of rights already protects our personal rights and limits the federal government's powers over the states and the citizens.

      Actually the Bill of Rights just codified our rights. Our rights are inalienable regardless of whether or not they are listed in the Bill of Rights.

      Oh, wait, the Constitution is routinely ignored by the Federal Government. So I'm sure a non-binding technology bill of rights will have a huge impact on limiting the Federal Government's actions...

      Beat me to it :(

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    2. Re:Nothing by DrLang21 · · Score: 1

      Our rights are inalienable regardless of whether or not they are listed in the Bill of Rights.

      However, these "inalienable rights" are only referred to as inalienable in a non-legally binding document.

      --
      I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
    3. Re:Nothing by alanQuatermain · · Score: 1

      Japanese Americans 1942

      That should provide a little context as to the enforcement of the bill of rights. Thanks to George Carlin for reminding me of this one.

    4. Re:Nothing by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Actually the Bill of Rights just codified our rights. Our rights are inalienable regardless of whether or not they are listed in the Bill of Rights.
       
      Only if your government doesn't have nuclear weapons. What is inalienable has changed considerably since 1776.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    5. Re:Nothing by scooter.higher · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Things like that are covered under Presidential Emergency powers. Just like making weather reports classified and making the U.S. Coast Guard a part of the U.S. Navy.

      "It is with great reluctance that I have agreed to this calling. I love democracy. I love the Republic. The powers you give me I will lay down when this crisis has be abated!" - Emperor Palpatine

      --
      Ramen
    6. Re:Nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they really were inalienable, how come they're violated on a regular basis around the world?

      There's no such thing as a natural right, other than the right to do whatever you can get away with. You may not like that (and neither do I), but it's the way it is.

    7. Re:Nothing by slashqwerty · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Well the U.S. Bill of Rights is certainly an excellent starting point.
      1. The right to express yourself, to peacefully assemble, to participate in religion without government interference and without government proselytizing, the right to petition the government, and the right to publish.
      2. The right to possess 'hacking' tools such as NMap, cryptography, high-performance computers, and anti-DRM tools.
      3. Prohibition on the government camping out on our equipment ala CALEA and the Clipper Chip.
      4. Right to be free from search and seizure without a warrant.
      5. Right not to testify against yourself such a being compelled to hand over a cryptographic key. Sanctions can not be imposed without due process (no three allegations and your cut off from the internet). Just compensation for government seizure for public purpose. Prohibition on double jeopardy.
      6. Right to confront your accuser (Media Sentry), right to a speedy trial, right to counsel, right to trial by jury.
      7. Right to jury even in modest civil cases.
      8. Punishment shall not be overly severe (no massive penalties for copyright infringement). Bail shall not be excessive (one million dollars bail when refusing to do your job).
      9. Other, unenumerated rights exist.
      10. Government shall not exceed its enumerated powers.
    8. Re:Nothing by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      "If they really were inalienable, how come they're violated on a regular basis around the world?"

      They were being violated on a regular basis in 1776, too.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    9. Re:Nothing by gringofrijolero · · Score: 1

      Our rights are inalienable regardless of whether or not they are listed in the Bill of Rights.

      Oh? And by what divine providence is this carried out? Does it involve moistened bints?

      --
      Todos mis movimientos están friamente calculados
    10. Re:Nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just add there some economic (right to have an internet based business), social (open education, interaction, better connectivity) and cultural (language, idn, online communities) rights, and some restrictions on inhumane treatment (no censoring on basic needs like sex) and the right to live (no disconnect). This was just a start for the internet rights. Either other technologies need their respective rights, or the human rights as formulated internationally could be actually taken into consideration, technology being a human activity after all.

    11. Re:Nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Actually the Bill of Rights just codified our rights. Our rights are inalienable regardless of whether or not they are listed in the Bill of Rights.

      I believe the constitution actually transfers some of our inalienable rights to form a limited government; otherwise we'd have all our rights and anarchy. Our inalienable rights; still defines who has the ultimate power -- that is the people and government can only exist with our borrowed rights. The bill of rights defines what we were not willing to give up to form the government.

      The other point is where you get these rights from? GOD? This is scary, as the move to make this country secular puts your rights on thin ice. If your rights are defined to be given by government then government can take them away. That is why the declaration of independence states that our rights our given to us by our creator and with those right we create the government.

    12. Re:Nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The Bill of Rights is not a force field that will keep government's hands off your rights. Stop thinking of it that way; I have the feeling those in power would prefer schools to keep teaching it that way so that people will sit quietly by while the government does as they like.

      Instead, think of the Bill of Rights like a bunch of canaries in the coal mine. The moment you see any of those canaries drop dead, it's time to do something with the warning you've been given.

    13. Re:Nothing by LuYu · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The other point is where you get these rights from? GOD? This is scary, as the move to make this country secular puts your rights on thin ice.

      Just because the source of these inalienable Rights is unknown or, better yet, undefined does not mean that they are dependent upon such a source. I do not believe that Jehova had a deal with the Founding Fathers to strike anybody with lightning who willingly violated the Constitution. The reason these rights are inalienable is this: These are in many ways the minimum Rights necessary for the system to function. By threatening any of these Rights for any individual, everybody's Rights are threatened. These Rights come from nature as there is no way to guarantee Rights for some but not for all without tyranny.

      Therefore, you can assign any origin to these Rights you want: physics (it is a property of reality), logic (it does make sense to do it any other way), God (if a being created everything, that being should be able to take credit for the properties within that creation), the Tao (it is impossible to enforce Rights for some in the absence of Rights for all), or even Jefferson (smart guy). I think the reason the terms "inalienable" and "natural" were chosen for a reason. They avoid this fixation on a specific creed and allow people of all faiths or no faith to have the same belief in Freedom.

      --
      All data is speech. All speech is Free.
    14. Re:Nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually the Bill of Rights just codified our rights. Our rights are inalienable regardless of whether or not they are listed in the Bill of Rights.

      And for anyone who doesn't happen to subscribe to your religion?

    15. Re:Nothing by Chief+Camel+Breeder · · Score: 1

      5. Right not to testify against yourself such a being compelled to hand over a cryptographic key. ...

      Is that the best analogy? Providing the key seems more like allowing lawful search of premises under the terms of a warrant.

    16. Re:Nothing by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Shut up or you'll get a scimitar hurled at you...

    17. Re:Nothing by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Only if your government doesn't have nuclear weapons. What is inalienable has changed considerably since 1776.

      Oh please, that's just hyperbole. There isn't a single example in all of human history of any Government using nuclear weapons on it's own citizenry. Given the fact that even China hasn't resorted to this I'm not real worried about it happening as an American.

      Do you really think the US military would carry out an order to drop an H-bomb on an American city? This isn't Nazi Germany -- our military doesn't swear a loyalty oath to the President. They swear an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies and to follow the orders issued through the chain of command according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    18. Re:Nothing by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Oh please, that's just hyperbole. There isn't a single example in all of human history of any Government using nuclear weapons on it's own citizenry.
       
      Yet. We're only just now getting back to feudalism thanks to Wall Street and the Central Bankers, who seem willing to do *anything* if it minutely increases their ability to sell their Ponzi scheme.
       
        Given the fact that even China hasn't resorted to this I'm not real worried about it happening as an American.
       
      China, being communist, has a stated economic interest in the greatest good for the greatest number of people. American Capitalists, who really control the government through legalized bribery, have no such interest.
       
        Do you really think the US military would carry out an order to drop an H-bomb on an American city?
       
      It only takes ten million dollars and ten corruptible underpaid soldiers to do this *WITHOUT* an order. And even officers in the US Army are underpaid.
       
        This isn't Nazi Germany -- our military doesn't swear a loyalty oath to the President.
       
      The President isn't the enemy you need to worry about, he's just a puppet anyway.
       
        They swear an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies and to follow the orders issued through the chain of command according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
       
      Yes they do. And in return we reward them with poverty, no VA benefits, and an utter lack of respect.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    19. Re:Nothing by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Informative

      China, being communist, has a stated economic interest in the greatest good for the greatest number of people.

      That must explain Tiananmen Square......

      American Capitalists, who really control the government through legalized bribery, have no such interest.

      Capitalists don't control the Government. Capitalists have influence in the Government that outweighs their numbers but "control" is a bit of a stretch.

      It only takes ten million dollars and ten corruptible underpaid soldiers to do this *WITHOUT* an order.

      Actually it takes a bit more than that. Look up "permissive action links" the next time you lose sleep over the security of our nuclear weapons.

      Yes they do. And in return we reward them with poverty, no VA benefits, and an utter lack of respect.

      And that's relevant to my point in what way exactly? It seems that you are ignoring the point I was trying to make in favor of spouting liberal talking points.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    20. Re:Nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There isn't a single example in all of human history of any Government using nuclear weapons on it's own citizenry.

      What about the nuclear experiments of Soviet Russia, the US, France and Britain? The line is blurred on this one, Obi Wan.

    21. Re:Nothing by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      That must explain Tiananmen Square......
       
      Sure does, when you think about it and realize that among a billion people, the million or so who were protesting were a MINORITY.
       
        Capitalists don't control the Government. Capitalists have influence in the Government that outweighs their numbers but "control" is a bit of a stretch.
       
      Then why do they get by with harming millions without being lynched? No, they've got control alright- both candidates in every election are already bought and paid for with campaign contributions- and who has the money to give campaign contributions? Those who have the money, give to both sides and have the right to lobby for favors afterward.
       
        Actually it takes a bit more than that. Look up "permissive action links" the next time you lose sleep over the security of our nuclear weapons.
       
      I decided to Look this up before responding, and what I found *will* make me sleep more securely at night, knowing that some undereducated private won't be the one able to do this. Unfortunately it doesn't quite negate what I said entirely- there is no such thing as a "tamper proof membrane", and theoretically one *could* indeed replace the control mechanism and detonator and still get some form of a yield (even though it would be far more likely to be a dirty bomb than a true nuclear detonation).
       
        And that's relevant to my point in what way exactly? It seems that you are ignoring the point I was trying to make in favor of spouting liberal talking points.
       
      The uniform code of military justice has a huge hole in it thanks to (and I actually call these CONSERVATIVE talking points, since any *real conservative* realizes that it is important to national security to adequately compensate one's military- this is the reason Saddam lost Gulf War I) the lack of compensation of the military. These aren't ideologues volunteering for the most part, they're people who have *NO* other option in our depressed economy.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    22. Re:Nothing by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Sure does, when you think about it and realize that among a billion people, the million or so who were protesting were a MINORITY.

      You sure live up to your Marxist handle if you think that the fact that they were a minority justifies the fact that they were brutally put down with violence.

      Then why do they get by with harming millions without being lynched?

      Because we have rule of law in this country and there are legal processes (both criminal and civil) that we resort to before we break out the pitchforks, torches and firearms.

      they're people who have *NO* other option in our depressed economy.

      Well I'd argue in favor of a military draft to ensure that our military represents all portions of society (including the best and brightest that the military so desperately needs) but I suspect that you leftists would have a problem with that. If we had a draft the kids of rich people would wind up being sent into harms way along side the kids of poor people. Think that might make it less likely that we engage in interventionist adventures and more likely that we reserve our use of the military for those situations wherein our national security is actually threatened?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    23. Re:Nothing by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      You sure live up to your Marxist handle if you think that the fact that they were a minority justifies the fact that they were brutally put down with violence.
       
      I don't emulate Marxism- I think it has a fatal flaw, oddly enough the same fatal flaw exists in Wall Street. But I do understand it, and one of the primary (and more ironic, especially given the protest in question) ethical values of Marxism is a brutal adherence to the tyranny of the majority. If you are willing to judge people by their own rules instead of arrogantly judging them by YOUR rules, then yes, under the rules of Marxism, a protesting minority is a danger to orderly society, perhaps more so than an invading army.
       
        Because we have rule of law in this country
       
      Yep, one law for the rich and a totally different one for the poor.
       
        and there are legal processes (both criminal and civil) that we resort to before we break out the pitchforks, torches and firearms.
       
      Only if you're rich enough to demand it. I guarantee you that in any sufficiently small village in America- the lynch mob IS the legal process.
       
        Well I'd argue in favor of a military draft to ensure that our military represents all portions of society (including the best and brightest that the military so desperately needs) but I suspect that you leftists would have a problem with that.
       
      Actually, many people on the left have argued for it since 9-11, so you'd be wrong there. In fact, at one point I personally supported a 25% draft and scorched earth policy with respect to Islam- because I'm pretty sure that the United States, even in it's weakened state from years of non-manufacture- could finish the "War on Terror" in a couple of months, if given enough troops.
       
        If we had a draft the kids of rich people would wind up being sent into harms way along side the kids of poor people. Think that might make it less likely that we engage in interventionist adventures and more likely that we reserve our use of the military for those situations wherein our national security is actually threatened?
       
      Possibly, but going back to my original point, I think it would make it less likely that we'd have soldiers able to be bribed to ignore the UCMJ.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    24. Re:Nothing by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      If you are willing to judge people by their own rules instead of arrogantly judging them by YOUR rules, then yes, under the rules of Marxism, a protesting minority is a danger to orderly society, perhaps more so than an invading army.

      I will judge them by my rules, because as far as I'm concerned Marxism/Communism/Mao'ism/what-have-you is at odds with the inalienable rights of man. I see no reason that an event such as Tiananmen deserves anything but scorn because of a different culture or political system.

      Yep, one law for the rich and a totally different one for the poor.

      I'll take the tyranny of the greenback over the tyranny of the enlightened majority any day of the week.

      In fact, at one point I personally supported a 25% draft and scorched earth policy with respect to Islam- because I'm pretty sure that the United States, even in it's weakened state from years of non-manufacture- could finish the "War on Terror" in a couple of months, if given enough troops.

      If you are advocating a scorched earth policy at odds with a hundred years of international law then I could point out that you wouldn't need large numbers of troops to implement it. Not since we learned how to split the atom anyway.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    25. Re:Nothing by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      I will judge them by my rules, because as far as I'm concerned Marxism/Communism/Mao'ism/what-have-you is at odds with the inalienable rights of man.
       
      Under Marxism, the individual has no inalienable rights.
       
        I see no reason that an event such as Tiananmen deserves anything but scorn because of a different culture or political system.
       
      Then you're being an arrogant and placing your culture above theirs.
       
        I'll take the tyranny of the greenback over the tyranny of the enlightened majority any day of the week.
       
      You wouldn't say so if you had lived through the end of the 19th century in America. In fact, I dare say you won't be singing the same song 3 years from now, as the tyranny of the greenback takes away your right to have food, clothing, and shelter.
       
        If you are advocating a scorched earth policy at odds with a hundred years of international law then I could point out that you wouldn't need large numbers of troops to implement it. Not since we learned how to split the atom anyway.
       
      True enough- and my early posts in September of 01 in Usenet recommended nuking Mecca right from the start. But thanks to the Bedouin, large percentages of the enemy population are not in cities and are rather hard to find, let alone target with a nuke. When this was pointed out to me, I suggested cobalt warheads, with their 100 mile radius blast pattern, might be in order.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    26. Re:Nothing by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Then you're being an arrogant and placing your culture above theirs.

      I have no problem doing so as long as my culture respects freedom and self determination and theirs does not. Ours is clearly superior and it's about time that we recognized that instead of rationalizing the bad behavior of others as some sort of cultural difference. African tribes routinely slice off the clitoris of young girls but we don't celebrate that behavior because of their culture. We condemn it and use what influence we have to change it.

      China oppresses individual rights, is wiping out the Tibetan culture/way of life, practices female infanticide and forced abortions. I can think of nothing redeeming to say about the Chinese regime and earnestly hope their people will break free of it within our lifetimes.

      You wouldn't say so if you had lived through the end of the 19th century in America.

      It's all about perspective. From my perspective I would rather live in environment with no nanny state trying to micromanage my vices and behavior than the current environment where the state "looks out" for me in the manner of a parent with OCD.

      In fact, I dare say you won't be singing the same song 3 years from now, as the tyranny of the greenback takes away your right to have food, clothing, and shelter.

      I'm not worried about that because I have a marketable skill and used the boon times to build up a healthy reserve of funds. While the rest of this country was out living beyond their means I was living in a 500 sq foot apartment and socking away 25% of my salary (more if you count my retirement investments) into savings. I have little sympathy for those that were greedy and bought houses they couldn't afford and SUVs that got 15 miles to the gallon when gasoline was above $4/gal.

      When this was pointed out to me, I suggested cobalt warheads, with their 100 mile radius blast pattern, might be in order.

      I find it interesting that a bleeding heart such as yourself is advocating nuclear warfare as a solution to terrorism. It seems to me that if we had just deployed our 100,000+ troops to Afghanistan instead of Iraq we could have solved the problem without using any nuclear weapons. Oh well, at least we ensured friendly airspace for the Israeli's when they deal with Iran for us.....

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    27. Re:Nothing by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Do you really think the US military would carry out an order to drop an H-bomb on an American city?

      Only if a corportation built city was suddenly overrun by zombies.

    28. Re:Nothing by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      I have no problem doing so as long as my culture respects freedom and self determination and theirs does not.
       
      Yeah, and freedom/self-determination has worked out so well for the thousands of newly homeless baby boomers who bought into the 401k/subprime mortgage scam.
       
        Ours is clearly superior and it's about time that we recognized that instead of rationalizing the bad behavior of others as some sort of cultural difference. African tribes routinely slice off the clitoris of young girls but we don't celebrate that behavior because of their culture. We condemn it and use what influence we have to change it.
       
      You might, I for one still want to see more evidence. We've monkeyed too much with other people's cherished beliefs in the name of freedom, and all it has gotten us is more tyranny.
       
        China oppresses individual rights, is wiping out the Tibetan culture/way of life, practices female infanticide and forced abortions. I can think of nothing redeeming to say about the Chinese regime and earnestly hope their people will break free of it within our lifetimes.
       
      Then I for one can only say you don't know very much about the Chinese regime- if you think it's all evil and no good.
       
        It's all about perspective. From my perspective I would rather live in environment with no nanny state trying to micromanage my vices and behavior than the current environment where the state "looks out" for me in the manner of a parent with OCD.
       
      I'd say as of late the state in America has been looking out for us in the manner of a parent with an addiction to drug abuse. Completely non-existant.
       
        I'm not worried about that because I have a marketable skill
       
      Marketable skills are worthless in times of stagflation.
       
        and used the boon times to build up a healthy reserve of funds
       
      Hope you didn't keep them in dollars or a bank.
       
        While the rest of this country was out living beyond their means I was living in a 500 sq foot apartment and socking away 25% of my salary (more if you count my retirement investments) into savings.
       
      Sucker.
       
        I have little sympathy for those that were greedy and bought houses they couldn't afford and SUVs that got 15 miles to the gallon when gasoline was above $4/gal.
       
      I've got NO sympathy for them, but know that due to their greed, my money will likely be worthless by 2012, so I'm quickly socking it away into tangibles- like a permaculture garden, rain gathering devices, and ambient energy generators.
       
        I find it interesting that a bleeding heart such as yourself is advocating nuclear warfare as a solution to terrorism.
       
      The "War on Terror" isn't about terrorism- it's about fundamentalism. And fundamentalism is a fire you can only put out in two ways: Surrender or Total Victory.
       
        It seems to me that if we had just deployed our 100,000+ troops to Afghanistan instead of Iraq we could have solved the problem without using any nuclear weapons.
       
      Nah, that would have just made us into Ghengis Kahn. Or England. Or Russia. Afghanistan is not conquerable by foot soldiers and calvary.
       
        Oh well, at least we ensured friendly airspace for the Israeli's when they deal with Iran for us.....
       
      Which is another group of fundamentalists we will have to deal with unless we choose the surrender option (and by surrender, I don't mean letting them have control of this nation, I mean isolationism).

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    29. Re:Nothing by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and freedom/self-determination has worked out so well for the thousands of newly homeless baby boomers who bought into the 401k/subprime mortgage scam.

      I don't regard the 401(k) as a scam and have very little sympathy for those that didn't properly manage their investments or whom were too lazy to read their mortgage paperwork.

      We've monkeyed too much with other people's cherished beliefs in the name of freedom

      Hey, I don't think we need to go out and change their beliefs at gunpoint. I just don't think we need to excuse away repugnant behavior because of cultural differences.

      I've got NO sympathy for them, but know that due to their greed, my money will likely be worthless by 2012, so I'm quickly socking it away into tangibles- like a permaculture garden, rain gathering devices, and ambient energy generators.

      If you are that pessimistic I hope you are socking some of it away into firearms and ammunition ;)

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    30. Re:Nothing by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      I don't regard the 401(k) as a scam
       
      What else can you call a pension fund that if you have less than $5000 in it will eventually disappear just due to management fees? And that you are encouraged to self-manage, but never given enough information to actually do so?
       
        and have very little sympathy for those that didn't properly manage their investments
       
      Given the amount of lying the financial industry does, this is everybody.
       
        or whom were too lazy to read their mortgage paperwork.
       
      Of which the brokers have also been repeatedly shown to have falsified. You can do all the due diligence you want, but if the other side is actively committing fraud, you're not being given the information needed to make a competent decision.
       
        Hey, I don't think we need to go out and change their beliefs at gunpoint. I just don't think we need to excuse away repugnant behavior because of cultural differences.
       
      Ah, ok. That makes more sense. No, I don't excuse their repugnant behavior. I just am honest enough to admit that perhaps to them, it's not repugnant.
       
        If you are that pessimistic I hope you are socking some of it away into firearms and ammunition ;)
       
      Yeah, well, on that, I prefer sonic and energy based weaponry. I might run out of lead, sulfur, and saltpeter one day, but I can always recharge my batteries from my wave, wind, and solar generators. And for stopping power, a 11,000-12,000hz siren at 460 db is both directional and will stop both man and beast (at least, for the cougar, bear, and coyote who live in my area of the country). As will a 26,000 volt, 1/4th amp fence.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    31. Re:Nothing by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      What else can you call a pension fund that if you have less than $5000 in it will eventually disappear just due to management fees? And that you are encouraged to self-manage, but never given enough information to actually do so?

      Again, I don't have any sympathy for those who are too lazy to seek out said information on their own. If you don't have the knowledge to make informed decisions about your retirement investments on your own then you'd damn well better acquire that knowledge or turn to someone you can trust for help. As far as management fees I honestly don't know what you are talking about. Most 401(k)s that I've seen have a number of different funds you can invest in. Some with high management fees, some with no management fees and some in the middle. It's up to you to do your homework and make good decisions.

      Given the amount of lying the financial industry does, this is everybody.

      Speak for yourself. I've managed to do pretty well in the downturn. Picked up some stocks on the way down that I'm going to hold for the mid (5 years or so) term. If history is any indication I'm going to make out pretty well on them. If I wanted to sell them today I could do so and would make almost 15% (not bad for an investment only owned for nine months) but I'm not inclined to do so. As far as my 401(k) goes I'm not real worried about it. I'm decades away from retirement and it will all work out in the end. The current market comes with an added bonus for people like me though -- picking up a lot more shares than I otherwise would.

      I have a lot more confidence in all of these investments than I'll ever have in anything run by Uncle Sam. By the time I'm 65 I'll bet the social security retirement age is 80. I'm not counting on it for a single penny. If anything I wish I could take the money that is being stolen from me and manage it myself. I suspect that I could do a lot better with it.

      Of which the brokers have also been repeatedly shown to have falsified. You can do all the due diligence you want, but if the other side is actively committing fraud, you're not being given the information needed to make a competent decision.

      If the other side is actively committing fraud then I suggest you do the American thing and sue them once you discover said fraud.

      Yeah, well, on that, I prefer sonic and energy based weaponry. I might run out of lead, sulfur, and saltpeter one day, but I can always recharge my batteries from my wave, wind, and solar generators

      Where are you going to get the parts to repair those generators and refurbish your batteries when society breaks down?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    32. Re:Nothing by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Again, I don't have any sympathy for those who are too lazy to seek out said information on their own.
       
      Said information is not available anymore. It once was, but that was before the system was deregulated.
       
        If you don't have the knowledge to make informed decisions about your retirement investments on your own then you'd damn well better acquire that knowledge or turn to someone you can trust for help.
       
      There is nobody left to trust- the entire bloody market is a scam.
       
        As far as management fees I honestly don't know what you are talking about. Most 401(k)s that I've seen have a number of different funds you can invest in.
       
      A limited number, chosen by the company, and if you want to invest in something outside of that number, you're SOL.
       
        Some with high management fees, some with no management fees and some in the middle. It's up to you to do your homework and make good decisions.
       
      All the ones I've ever seen all had 10%/year OR MORE management fees associated with them. Which meant if you didn't have enough money to diversify, they'd disappear.
       
        I have a lot more confidence in all of these investments than I'll ever have in anything run by Uncle Sam.
       
      I don't. In fact, as near as I can tell, there isn't a single broker on Wall Street who isn't a lying Madoff-style scumbag.
       
        By the time I'm 65 I'll bet the social security retirement age is 80. I'm not counting on it for a single penny.
       
      Well, on that scale, neither am I- my first accounting letter from the Social Security Administration told me my estimated retirement, if I waited until 80, would be $40,000/year- and my expectation of getting that amount was 0%.
       
        If anything I wish I could take the money that is being stolen from me and manage it myself. I suspect that I could do a lot better with it.
       
      Where I wish I could convert it to gold. Or better yet, buy a campground on top of one of the old Oregon mines. It's the only safe investment left.
       
        If the other side is actively committing fraud then I suggest you do the American thing and sue them once you discover said fraud.
       
      Does no good- the banks own the judges and the lawyers.
       
        Where are you going to get the parts to repair those generators and refurbish your batteries when society breaks down?
       
      Same place I got them to begin with- mining and building them myself.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    33. Re:Nothing by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Said information is not available anymore. It once was, but that was before the system was deregulated.

      Strange then, because I was able to find it without much trouble......

      There is nobody left to trust- the entire bloody market is a scam.

      If you really feel that way keep all your money under the mattress. Let's get back together in ten years and see who did better :)

      A limited number, chosen by the company, and if you want to invest in something outside of that number, you're SOL.

      Yeah well, what do you want? I think it would be better if you could direct your 401(k) in the same manner as you can your IRA (you can invest in almost any type of stock or fund with an IRA) and maybe that's something that can be worked on.

      All the ones I've ever seen all had 10%/year OR MORE management fees associated with them. Which meant if you didn't have enough money to diversify, they'd disappear.

      Umm, care to provide a link to the 401(k) with a fund that has two digit management fees? I've never seen any fund with a 10% management fee, let alone one within a 401(k). 1% to 2% is more typical and if you do your homework you can find funds with fees that are even less than that.

      Does no good- the banks own the judges and the lawyers.

      You should change your nickname to Captain Pessimist.

      Same place I got them to begin with- mining and building them myself.

      Well, good luck with that :)

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    34. Re:Nothing by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Strange then, because I was able to find it without much trouble.....
       
      And exactly what are you basing your ability to know the information you found was accurate on? Madoff, for instance, posted huge returns 9/10 reporting periods- all based on fake info.
       
        If you really feel that way keep all your money under the mattress. Let's get back together in ten years and see who did better :)
       
      If we base it on the next 10 years, we'll both be negative. Strongly negative, because the petrodollar is a dead duck.
       
        Yeah well, what do you want?
       
      100% transparency by outside organizations into all corporate matters, and 0% secrecy. A true brokerage account that allows you to trade in anything, not a limited number of funds, much more like an IRA.
       
        I think it would be better if you could direct your 401(k) in the same manner as you can your IRA (you can invest in almost any type of stock or fund with an IRA) and maybe that's something that can be worked on.
       
      Yeah, that's one way anyway. The other bit though is that the cost of wages should be increased to 98% of profits, porportioned by what people actually DO for the company. (In other words, a line worker who adds a million in value to the product, should be paid $900,000- and his manager, who just pushed paperwork and added far less value to the end product, should be paid less).
       
        Umm, care to provide a link to the 401(k) with a fund that has two digit management fees?
       
      Don't have the link anymore- I learned my lesson after I lost everything with them in 2001, and haven't taken a 401k since. They were Schwab based though.
       
        I've never seen any fund with a 10% management fee, let alone one within a 401(k). 1% to 2% is more typical and if you do your homework you can find funds with fees that are even less than that.
       
      You aren't allowed to do your homework with a 401(k)- you have to take what your company offers.
       
        You should change your nickname to Captain Pessimist.
       
      Oh, I'm FAR from the most pessimistic out there.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    35. Re:Nothing by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Madoff, for instance, posted huge returns 9/10 reporting periods- all based on fake info.

      And he's going to Federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison for the rest of his miserable life for his crimes. I've already said that anyone who commits fraud should be held accountable for their actions.

      If we base it on the next 10 years, we'll both be negative. Strongly negative, because the petrodollar is a dead duck.

      We'll see I guess :)

      Yeah, that's one way anyway. The other bit though is that the cost of wages should be increased to 98% of profits, porportioned by what people actually DO for the company. (In other words, a line worker who adds a million in value to the product, should be paid $900,000- and his manager, who just pushed paperwork and added far less value to the end product, should be paid less).

      Who are you to judge what the manager contributed to the project? What you are purposing is a Governmental mandate to interfere in business that would destroy the profit incentive that fuels productivity. Such a system has failed miserably every single time it's been attempted. To quote Churchill: "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

      Don't have the link anymore- I learned my lesson after I lost everything with them in 2001, and haven't taken a 401k since. They were Schwab based though.

      So you are bitter about what happened to you and are making sweeping generalizations about everyone and everything because of your own experience?

      You aren't allowed to do your homework with a 401(k)- you have to take what your company offers.

      My company doesn't tell me which funds within the 401(k) I can invest in. That's left up to me. I could invest it all in cash, all in stocks or some balance of the two. I do agree with you that I'd rather see it more open ended than this (the IRA example given previously) but you must admit that the reality of the situation isn't quite what you are claiming it to be.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    36. Re:Nothing by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      And he's going to Federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison for the rest of his miserable life for his crimes.
       
      Last I heard, he was going into minimum security, not supermax.
       
        I've already said that anyone who commits fraud should be held accountable for their actions.
       
      The problem is, that's everybody. Thanks to the way things were deregulated, there are NO honest men in the financial industry- at all.
       
        We'll see I guess :)
       
      The writing was on the wall in 1970. Only an idiot would use the petrodollar as a reserve currency after what the FED has been doing.
       
        Who are you to judge what the manager contributed to the project?
       
      An HONEST man, which is more than I can say for any manager I've ever met or heard of.
       
        What you are purposing is a Governmental mandate to interfere in business that would destroy the profit incentive that fuels productivity.
       
      The profit incentive doesn't fuel productivity, the profit incentive fuels fraud.
       
        Such a system has failed miserably every single time it's been attempted.
       
      Actually, no it hasn't- it's only failed when it has grown too large (which is something else I'm against- any corporation that serves customers more than 10 miles from it's home office, or has more than 500 customers/workers/managment/investors total).
       
        To quote Churchill: "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."
       
      There's no difference between the two once they exceed two degrees of friendship.
       
        So you are bitter about what happened to you
       
      Yes. Wouldn't you be?
       
        and are making sweeping generalizations about everyone and everything because of your own experience?
       
      Yes, because that is science- to take experiences and draw conclusions from them.
       
        My company doesn't tell me which funds within the 401(k) I can invest in.
       
      But they limit your choices to the funds they want you to invest in.
       
        That's left up to me. I could invest it all in cash,
       
      Which would effectively put your reserves in petrodollars, which by the end of 2012 will be worth less than a Zimbabwean Baked Bean
       
        all in stocks
       
      Which are the biggest scam ever and are based in nothing real.
       
        some balance of the two
       
      What, no bond funds? Of course, those are even worse.
       
        I do agree with you that I'd rather see it more open ended than this (the IRA example given previously) but you must admit that the reality of the situation isn't quite what you are claiming it to be.
       
      Unless you can go up to the CEO of the corporation you are investing in and shoot him for wasting your money, you have no guarantees. Anything less is just betting your future on a roulette wheel. No, strike that- the roulette wheel has a better return on investment if you bet on red or black (48% instead of 10%).

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    37. Re:Nothing by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Last I heard, he was going into minimum security, not supermax.

      Would you feel better if we draw and quartered him in the public square while forcing him to watch as people assraped his family? He's spending the rest of his life behind bars. Unless you are looking for some sort of cruel and unusual punishment I don't see why we are even still talking about him.

      The problem is, that's everybody. Thanks to the way things were deregulated, there are NO honest men in the financial industry- at all.

      Yes, there isn't a single honest person left in the financial industry. Every single actor ranging from the Wall Street tycoon to the loan officer at my community credit union is a con-artist looking for the fastest way to screw the American people.

      The writing was on the wall in 1970. Only an idiot would use the petrodollar as a reserve currency after what the FED has been doing.

      Pray tell, what other reserve currency would you use?

      An HONEST man, which is more than I can say for any manager I've ever met or heard of.

      Another sweeping generalization. It's getting hard to take you seriously.

      The profit incentive doesn't fuel productivity, the profit incentive fuels fraud.

      That profit incentive that you condemn helped to create the computer/software/internet that we are having this conservation on.

      which is something else I'm against- any corporation that serves customers more than 10 miles from it's home office, or has more than 500 customers/workers/managment/investors total

      So what you are really against is success. Gotcha.

      Yes. Wouldn't you be?

      I've had my share of misery. I was accused of a crime that I didn't commit and had to spend thousands of dollars to clear my name. It contributed heavily to my bankruptcy a few years ago. You don't see me making sweeping generalizations about the justice system and condemning every single actor within it.

      Yes, because that is science- to take experiences and draw conclusions from them.

      A proper use of the scientific method would seem to demand a larger data set than the experiences of one individual.

      But they limit your choices to the funds they want you to invest in.

      Well, given the fact that you've ruled out stocks as a scam and cash/bond investments as foolhardy, I'd hazard a guess that you wouldn't be happy with any form of investing other than a 401(k) plan that provides you with solar cells and firearms for that compound you are constructing to weather the collapse of civilization.

      Anything less is just betting your future on a roulette wheel. No, strike that- the roulette wheel has a better return on investment if you bet on red or black (48% instead of 10%).

      Speak for yourself. I've made a lot of money on that roulette wheel. Let's mark down a calendar and have this conversation again in 2013. If civilization has collapsed I'll give you one of my solar cells or firearms. If it hasn't then I think you owe me a beer and a single share of the stock of my choice ;)

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    38. Re:Nothing by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Would you feel better if we draw and quartered him in the public square while forcing him to watch as people assraped his family?
       
      Given the involvement of his family in the scam, YES. And then ALL of their assets taken away, sold at auction, and the money returned to the people they stole it from. And if that isn't enough for full recompense (and it probably isn't) then the family sold into slavery for however many generations it takes to repay the debt.
       
        He's spending the rest of his life behind bars. Unless you are looking for some sort of cruel and unusual punishment I don't see why we are even still talking about him.
       
      Without a strong level of cruel and unusual punishment in this case, we have no guarantee that the rest of the market isn't playing the same game.
       
        Yes, there isn't a single honest person left in the financial industry. Every single actor ranging from the Wall Street tycoon to the loan officer at my community credit union is a con-artist looking for the fastest way to screw the American people.
       
      Yes, that's the lesson that September 2008 proved to everybody with an ounce of common sense.
       
        Pray tell, what other reserve currency would you use?
       
      I wouldn't- the whole idea of currency is morally bankrupt and highly suspect. Tangibles is where it's at- making sure your family and neighbors can eat.
       
        Another sweeping generalization. It's getting hard to take you seriously.
       
      So don't. What do I care? Sweeping generalizations are the only truth we're allowed to have, since we're not allowed to have any REAL information.
       
        So what you are really against is success. Gotcha.
       
      That isn't success. Success is serving your friends and your family, not conning strangers out of their money.
       
        I've had my share of misery. I was accused of a crime that I didn't commit and had to spend thousands of dollars to clear my name. It contributed heavily to my bankruptcy a few years ago. You don't see me making sweeping generalizations about the justice system and condemning every single actor within it.
       
      Then you're a bigger loser than I am by a long way- because you're too stupid to see that the world is really out to get you and that it wasn't worth clearing your name.
       
        A proper use of the scientific method would seem to demand a larger data set than the experiences of one individual.
       
      There is no proper use of the scientific method, because the scientific method relies upon one big lie: that human beings are capable of objective data.
       
        Speak for yourself. I've made a lot of money on that roulette wheel. Let's mark down a calendar and have this conversation again in 2013. If civilization has collapsed I'll give you one of my solar cells or firearms. If it hasn't then I think you owe me a beer and a single share of the stock of my choice ;)
       
      Interesting bet. But one you won't live to collect, it seems.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    39. Re:Nothing by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Speak for yourself. I've made a lot of money on that roulette wheel. Let's mark down a calendar and have this conversation again in 2013. If civilization has collapsed I'll give you one of my solar cells or firearms. If it hasn't then I think you owe me a beer and a single share of the stock of my choice ;)
       
      2nd reply on this bet specifically- change that to a beer and a sack of seed corn, and I'll gladly accept. Here are my "signs the apocalypse is nearing", including one we can both agree on as being objective right at the end.

      1. Late 2009/early 2010- the federal government doesn't see enough improvement in unemployment to stop Keynesian stimulus spending, goes even further into debt, triggering an increase in Chinese & Indian flight from petrodollar reserves.
       
      2. Because unemployment is a severely lagging indicator, the FED overshoots on petrodollar production at the same time petrodollars stop being a reserve currency for anybody. Result- what I call Weimar Hyperstagflation- Unemployment >15%, Inflation >10% at the same time. (the trigger figures for this are on the conservative side- real Wiemar Hyperstagflation could well see an inflationary depression- a couple of million for a loaf of bread and no way for a quarter of the population to earn even $1/day).
       
      3. In 2011/2012, the hyperinflation becomes a political problem. Obama becomes a one-term loser president with the reputation of Jimmy Carter or Herbert Hoover.
       
      I say this because I don't believe total economic collapse will happen by 2013- and if we keep predicting it, maybe some miracle boy someplace will pull us out. But only by being prepared have I kept my house and stayed out of bankruptcy. Millions more aren't so lucky.
       
      But you said "civilization has collapsed"- and from my point of view, that happened 36 years ago. This ain't civilization, this is every man for himself.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  6. the open sourcing of law enforcement hardware? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Intel is going to publish their chip designs now?

    1. Re:the open sourcing of law enforcement hardware? by zach297 · · Score: 1

      More likely the police will be forced to use technology that is already open source.

    2. Re:the open sourcing of law enforcement hardware? by mrmeval · · Score: 1

      "Any hardware or software system must be fully documented and digitally published for the public good. The patent and copyright system are good enough to protect your ip." ;)

      --
      I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
  7. As Douglas Adams put it... by Tackhead · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What sort of efficacy do you see such a document having,

    Prosser: "Have you any idea how much damage that bulldozer would suffer if I just let it run straight over you?"
    Arthur: "How much?"
    Prosser: "None at all."

  8. How 'bout this, for starters re: search/seizure by davidsyes · · Score: 1, Interesting

    What should be in a "Technology Bill of Rights"

    Current technology makes it easy and difficult for law enforcement to capture and seize and retain

    equipment, information, and data of or about or owned by a target of an investigation or persons

    tangential to the target of said investigation. Technology also makes it possible and not unreasonable for

    persons visit, collect, dispose of, and maintain data over a variety of devices, streams, and locations.

    Persons under investigation or not under investigation shall not be required to live their lives as if

    they must be at-the-ready to facilitate Law Enforcement to bring charges against said person or persons

    related to the subject of an investigation. People today use computers to facilitate communication,

    operation of business, continuance of education, and to do any number of other things that may be legal or

    illegal, but not of an illegality sufficient to warrant seizure (even if remote search and surveillance

    are conducted) of the equipment.

    Unnecessary, spiteful, specious, punative and groundsless search is disturbing and seizure detrimental if

    not permanently destructive to the privacy or conduct of business or education of persons who ultimately

    are not arrested or are arrested but released on Own Recognizance or for lack of cause or for

    technicalities or procedural abberations in violation of subject's rights.

    Therefore:

    Persons under surveillance who have not committed a crime nor are being charged with a crime SHALL NOT

    have their personal property seized. Seizure may occur in extremely grave situations of bona fide national

    security or flight risk concerns, but ONLY IF the person is in an immediate position of destroying data

    that was not already captured via technical means which may or may not be disclosed to the subject nor the

    subject's attorney.

    Persons who voluntarily offer to law enforcement an opportunity to reasonably copy target's data

    concurrent to/related to the scope of the investigation SHALL NOT BE SEPARATED from the investigation and

    SHALL BE ALLOWED personal or technical proxy representation, full custody of, and a written receipt or

    copy log of what os obtained.

    Law enforcement shall arrive to the premises equipped to take copies of data by whatever means devices

    allow the recording of data which may be stored on equipment as old as 25 years or current. The ill-

    preparation of LE to copy data SHALL NOT JUSTIFY seizure nor freezing of subjects' assessts simply for

    convenience of Law Enforcement. Only in extremely grave cases of risk of destruction of information shall

    LE be permitted to monitor "that last bit" of uncaptured information via orders to a subject (by now

    compromised) to not destroy information.

    If LE determines a person or business warrants surveillance, it should be publicly expected that by the

    time a subject is arrested or detained and removed from home or business, LE should have by technical

    means obtained what it needed. The seizure of equipment shall result in the turning over of the equipment

    to a NEUTRAL THIRD PARTY who will not buckle to police, nor allow the pending-defendant's counsel to

    tamper with evidence.

    --
    Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
    1. Re:How 'bout this, for starters re: search/seizure by davidsyes · · Score: 1

      Crappy-assed notepad... bad formatting... Here is the same text, formatted for easier reading:

      What should be in a "Technology Bill of Rights"

      Current technology makes it easy and difficult for law enforcement to capture and seize and retain equipment, information, and data of or about or owned by a target of an investigation or persons tangential to the target of said investigation. Technology also makes it possible and not unreasonable for persons visit, collect, dispose of, and maintain data over a variety of devices, streams, and locations.
      Persons under investigation or not under investigation shall not be required to live their lives as if they must be at-the-ready to facilitate Law Enforcement to bring charges against said person or persons related to the subject of an investigation. People today use computers to facilitate communication, operation of business, continuance of education, and to do any number of other things that may be legal or illegal, but not of an illegality sufficient to warrant seizure (even if remote search and surveillance are conducted) of the equipment.

      Unnecessary, spiteful, specious, punative and groundsless search is disturbing and seizure detrimental if not permanently destructive to the privacy or conduct of business or education of persons who ultimately are not arrested or are arrested but released on Own Recognizance or for lack of cause or for technicalities or procedural abberations in violation of subject's rights.

      Therefore:

      Persons under surveillance who have not committed a crime nor are being charged with a crime SHALL NOT have their personal property seized. Seizure may occur in extremely grave situations of bona fide national security or flight risk concerns, but ONLY IF the person is in an immediate position of destroying data that was not already captured via technical means which may or may not be disclosed to the subject nor the subject's attorney.

      Persons who voluntarily offer to law enforcement an opportunity to reasonably copy target's data concurrent to/related to the scope of the investigation SHALL NOT BE SEPARATED from the investigation and SHALL BE ALLOWED personal or technical proxy representation, full custody of, and a written receipt or copy log of what os obtained.

      Law enforcement shall arrive to the premises equipped to take copies of data by whatever means devices allow the recording of data which may be stored on equipment as old as 25 years or current. The ill-preparation of LE to copy data SHALL NOT JUSTIFY seizure nor freezing of subjects' assessts simply for convenience of Law Enforcement. Only in extremely grave cases of risk of destruction of information shall LE be permitted to monitor "that last bit" of uncaptured information via orders to a subject (by now compromised) to not destroy information.

      If LE determines a person or business warrants surveillance, it should be publicly expected that by the time a subject is arrested or detained and removed from home or business, LE should have by technical means obtained what it needed. The seizure of equipment shall result in the turning over of the equipment to a NEUTRAL THIRD PARTY who will not buckle to police, nor allow the pending-defendant's counsel to tamper with evidence.

      --
      Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
    2. Re:How 'bout this, for starters re: search/seizure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's nice. Now can you post that without the annoying doublespace?

    3. Re:How 'bout this, for starters re: search/seizure by Endo13 · · Score: 1

      That's nice. Now can you post that without the annoying doublespace?

      Translation:

      TL;DR.

      Same here.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
    4. Re:How 'bout this, for starters re: search/seizure by sexconker · · Score: 1

      It's a poor carpenter who blames his tools.
      Notepad is fine.

      In fact, it's awesome.

      --Initial comment about superiority of vi/emacs/etc. over notepad.
      --Comment vi/emacs/etc. sucking, and emacs/vim/etc. ruling.
      --No you.

      Carry on, I got you guys started.

  9. Separation by oldhack · · Score: 3, Funny

    Strict separation of state from goatse terror regime.

    Or did the frist post already address that?

    --
    Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
  10. opt out by symes · · Score: 1

    The right to opt out of phorm and similar scams. And an obligation for computer users across the world to keep their networked machines patched.

    1. Re:opt out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And an obligation for computer users across the world to keep their networked machines patched.

      Why should anyone have an obligation to apply a patch? There have been plenty of patches released for Windows or Linux, etc that have broken things.

    2. Re:opt out by Shoe+Puppet · · Score: 1

      or even better, not to be harassed by it unless you opt *in*

      --
      (+1, Disagree)
  11. Absolute Requirement by serutan · · Score: 3, Funny

    A reference to the Book of Armaments has to be in there somewhere.

  12. Gaaah! by MindlessAutomata · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The American founding fathers, from whom the Bill of Rights came, viewed rights a inherent to all individuals and not something granted by men. Either from God, or inherent in nature (or actually both, to my understanding).

    These rights are what is referred to as "negative rights". Basically put, that you can do just about anything so long as it doesn't infringe on another's well-being. Everything in the Bill of Rights demonstratably follows from that--that the government shall not interfere. But it doesn't grant you special privileges, either--nothing that requires one else give it to you (well, with some exceptions like right to a speedy trial).

    To then go on to talk about a Bill of Rights as some arbitrarily-agreed upon standards is ridiculous and on some level scary, because it implies your humans rights and worth is something up for democratic debate and potentially is yet another chip on the political bargaining table.

    You don't have to be an adherent to natural law (I'm not) to feel or believe in that. No so-called "Bill of Rights" should demand that other private entities ought to give you special privileges or concessions based on some mob rule decision. No wonder Democrats so frequently assume that the 2nd amendment means something that it doesn't--they believe (or at least, appear to believe) that rights and apparently human dignity are government-granted...!

    1. Re:Gaaah! by rattaroaz · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Unfortunately, you and I are so 18th century. Back then, if not otherwise specified, the government had no rights. But now, it has been successfully turned around. Unless otherwise specified by the government, the people have no rights. Like it or not, I think most Americans see it that way, and not just Democrats. Damn shame.

    2. Re:Gaaah! by DragonWriter · · Score: 3, Interesting

      To then go on to talk about a Bill of Rights as some arbitrarily-agreed upon standards is ridiculous and on some level scary, because it implies your humans rights and worth is something up for democratic debate and potentially is yet another chip on the political bargaining table.

      I don't know why its scary: the Bill of Rights itself is the product of discussion, debate, and democratic process. Sure, they reflect a means of protecting what at least a significant portion of those discussing and debating thought were fundamental rights in natural law, but they were no less a product of political process than any other law.

      The treatment of the Constitution (whether the main text or the Bill of Rights) as some sort of quasi-religious revealed document given by quasi-divine Founders, rather than a political document created by men and subject to debate on its merits, is what I find scary.

    3. Re:Gaaah! by Improv · · Score: 1

      But they are yet another chip on the bargaining table. If they were inherent in nature,

      1) How do we derive them from nature without the feeling in the back of our head that we're making them up as a reformulation of current philosophical norms?
      2) Why don't they keep emerging in the same form as we study the history of nations?

      Calling these rights inherent in humanity was good propoganda for the times, but eventually we outgrow the need for such undefensible ideas.

      --
      For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
    4. Re:Gaaah! by rattaroaz · · Score: 1

      If I can read the GP's mind, I think the scary part is the fact that the Founders were debating what rights the government should or should not have (yes, oversimplification). If they took some rights away from the government, then boo hoo. Now they are talking about what rights government and corporations should give to citizens. If they take some rights away from the citizens, then boo hoo. THAT is the scary part.

    5. Re:Gaaah! by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      Compared to the recent leadership of the country the Founders were gods. The best we can do is try to preserve what they created, because all the clowns we have now can do is make thinks worse.

    6. Re:Gaaah! by Strake · · Score: 1

      To then go on to talk about a Bill of Rights as some arbitrarily-agreed upon standards is ridiculous and on some level scary, because it implies your humans rights and worth is something up for democratic debate and potentially is yet another chip on the political bargaining table.

      You see, here in Canada, we have this "Notwithstanding" clause...

    7. Re:Gaaah! by MindlessAutomata · · Score: 1

      I am not a believer in natural law, but let me put it this way: do you believe that what is right is not always the law, and what is the law is not always right? That the law is not something to be obeyed because it is the law? That some ethical principles, however derived, transcend whatever the government or society thinks...?

      That is my position.

    8. Re:Gaaah! by Improv · · Score: 1

      My beliefs on morals and ethics are independent of the law, as yours are. I do believe that there is no truth about morals and ethics - they are "held", not "known". I am willing to argue for and enforce (to an extent) mine regardless (to an extent) of what the legal norms are. I would not claim them to be painted onto the nature of things.

      --
      For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
    9. Re:Gaaah! by MindlessAutomata · · Score: 1

      I agree with you; I was giving a short history lesson on what the founding fathers thought as per the basis of the Bill of Rights. My positions held are in-line with natural law but I do not have the natural law basis for them. I do not believe in tolerating incompatible ethical codes, either.

    10. Re:Gaaah! by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Compared to the recent leadership of the country the Founders were gods.

      Familiarity breeds contempt, and a couple centuries of deliberately focussing on the good (and minimizing the bad) in the founders -- as part of building the mythology of America -- exaggerates the degree to which the Founders seem superior.

  13. A Bill of rights .. by SlashDev · · Score: 1

    .. is pointless unless we have a system that protects it. Do we have technology courts? Technology judges? Technology prosecutors? Can the goverment protect me from Spam and Virtuses? In response though, I would really like to see the right to be happy while using technology. Happiness to me comes in the form of, no spam, no viruses, no intrusion of any sort. That being said, it may make a criminal 'happy' if he'she commits a crime, so a bill of rights yes, but a rule of law that goes along with it.

    --

    TOP DSLR Cameras Reviews of the top DSLRs
    1. Re:A Bill of rights .. by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      I would really like to see the right to be happy while using technology.

      Can you imagine how many people would be suing Microsoft for violating their rights if this were passed?

  14. empower the user by swschrad · · Score: 1

    the first article there, of course, is to allow customers of licensed entertainment to use the material as the copyright law allows. and that is reflected in "fair use."

    you have to buy something sometime. once you have done so, as long as you own the original licensed copy, you can replicate it on other gadgets for more convenient use. as long as you only use ONE at a time, and don't give any of it away to non-licensed users.

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
  15. Lets see... by Darkness404 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    1. Right to access the internet if you pay for it
    2. Right to control what software is on your computer
    3. Right to copy anything you own for your own personal use
    4. Right to use software that does not interfere with anyone else's right
    5. The Right to publish any information that is true without fear of takedown notices
    6. The Right to possess any information
    7. The Right to control your own hardware
    8. The Right to use any device for any purpose that does not interfere with rights of others
    9. The Right to remain anonymous
    10.The Right to have free, uncensored speech on your own servers

    Have all these and we would have a good start.

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
  16. Be careful what you wish for by icebike · · Score: 3, Interesting

    These things have a habit of A) never becoming law and B) being subverted if and when they do become law.

    For example:

    Article 2: No network provider may constrain or restrict access to the Internet in any way, shape, or form other than agreed-upon access speeds

    Really: Cart Blanche to do any amount of illegal acts on the net without fear of having your use cut off? Really? Required car analogy: I can do anything in my car as long as I don't exceed the speed limit? Really? You've thought this thru, have you Paul?

    Article 3. No individual shall be held liable for effects of malware or malicious code unknowingly run on a personal computer

    This exonerates those who write malicious code. They release a virus to the internet, but have no knowledge of which computers it becomes installed on. Therefore, they are not liable.

    Number 4: Why should anyone be obligated implement mandatory update checks in any software?
    What if I don't want my software calling home?

    The more you read this screed the less well thought out it becomes.

    --
    Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    1. Re:Be careful what you wish for by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      Article 3. No individual shall be held liable for effects of malware or malicious code unknowingly run on a personal computer

      This exonerates those who write malicious code. They release a virus to the internet, but have no knowledge of which computers it becomes installed on. Therefore, they are not liable.

      The "article" was badly phrased, but the explanation makes it clear that by "unknowingly run" he means the user clicking on the .jpg.exe icon. "No individual" probably should mean "no individual who unknowingly runs the malware" not "no individual who creates and distributes the malware".

      Hopefully this guy doesn't write any laws, he's about as clear as the average congresscritter, and the average congresscritter's bills are as clear as mud, requiring years of court battles to interpret what the hell their gibberish actually meant.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    2. Re:Be careful what you wish for by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Really: Cart Blanche to do any amount of illegal acts on the net without fear of having your use cut off? Really? Required car analogy: I can do anything in my car as long as I don't exceed the speed limit? Really? You've thought this thru, have you Paul?

      Yes he has. Even a convicted felon should get access to the net. Try getting a job without that - won't happen. Sure, commit a crime online and you could go to jail, but you won't be banned from the net when you get out.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    3. Re:Be careful what you wish for by sjames · · Score: 1

      Article 2: No network provider may constrain or restrict access to the Internet in any way, shape, or form other than agreed-upon access speeds Really: Cart Blanche to do any amount of illegal acts on the net without fear of having your use cut off? Really? Required car analogy: I can do anything in my car as long as I don't exceed the speed limit? Really? You've thought this thru, have you Paul?

      Not exactly carte blanche. You're still on the hook for the crimes you commit, it's just that you cannot be denied the right to be on the net. Sorta like we don't chop off a thief's hands or cut out a liar's tongue. Sorta like no matter how many times you sell illegal drugs over the phone, you're not banned from using the phone even though you may serve many years in prison if you sell drugs again.

      Article 3. No individual shall be held liable for effects of malware or malicious code unknowingly run on a personal computer

      This exonerates those who write malicious code. They release a virus to the internet, but have no knowledge of which computers it becomes installed on. Therefore, they are not liable.

      I don't see where you get that. By releasing a virus on the net, you knowingly ran it (or caused it to be run), you just didn't know exactly where it would run.

  17. Seems pretty simple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1.) No top-down censorship. If a person wants to censor their own site, fine. If a person (the owner of the internet connection in question) wants to censor their own experience, fine. But if they don't want to, they don't have to, and no consequences. This must include even illegal subjects - go after the people hosting illegal stuff, sure, but do it out in the open. If we let you censor sites we leave ourselves open to censorship of things you just happen not to like.

    2.) Net neutrality. No discriminating against traffic by source or content. Charging for volume? Sure. But a user's ISP trying to force a website to pay them for preferential treatment... no.

    3.) (Ideally) freedom of choice at every possible level (DNS, ISP, etc).

  18. Right to the source... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

    ... of products people buy after a certain number of years.

    One nasty thing about commercial software is that you can't pay other people to fix it because you DON'T have the source. This means many software programs become forcibly obsoleted by autocratic corporate institutions instead of being able to be released into the public domain.

  19. Here: by Shoe+Puppet · · Score: 1

    -Full control over the own hard- and software, i.e. no TCM and DRM

    --
    (+1, Disagree)
  20. privacy vs anonymity by drDugan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Privacy is the ability to protect ones personal information from others - preventing others from accessing information about yourself.

    Anonymity is removing information which could identify a person as a specific individual from a group.

    These two ideas are close, but subtly different. Privacy can be an absolute concept - preventing information access and use for certain information can be binary: either others can access it or not. Anonymity is almost never absolute: simply knowing a human posted text has anonymity to 1 in about 6.7 Billion(ish). If you know any other information, the degree of anonymity goes down: Posted online: 1 in 2 Billion, in English: 1 in 400million. A male in the US implies 1 in about 190Million. A person who lives a particular zip code: anonymous to about 1 in 20 thousand. Examining the content one exposes: a person in Chicago, who is interested in the Chicago Cubs, and opposes the fare increase -- digging into details like that can make a person anonymous to about 1 in a few hundred with enough work.

    Asserting anything about anonymity must include the idea that anonymity is always a sliding scale, and depends a lot on every bit of information a person chooses to put out into the world.

    I do *not* think anonymity is a right, nor should we try to enforce it or preserve it. Anonymity is an anachronism in recent human history. People act better when they know they are not anonymous.

    Privacy protections on the other hand are very important. Personal information sets, socially defined, that one chooses to protect and chooses to prevent others from being able to access of use once they have it are extremely important, and should be promoted and protected strongly.

    1. Re:privacy vs anonymity by slashqwerty · · Score: 1

      A person who lives a particular zip code: anonymous to about 1 in 20 thousand.

      A person that everyone thinks lives in one zip code but actually lives in another: anonymous

      I do *not* think anonymity is a right, nor should we try to enforce it or preserve it. Anonymity is an anachronism in recent human history. People act better when they know they are not anonymous.

      Some people act better when they know they are not anonymous. Plenty of people have made valuable contributions to society only because they knew they were anonymous. Take for example, Mark Felt, who blew the whistle on Nixon's attempt to subvert the democratic process. He certainly would not have done that without anonymity. Before his identity was known he was well respected for his professionalism and accomplishments. Once his identity was revealed some 30 years later he was under instant character assassination. Imagine what would have become of him had his identity been known during Watergate. Imagine what would have become of the Watergate investigation had his identity been known.

      Do you think Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and John Jay were acting poorly when they published the Federalist Papers under a pseudonym? By publishing anonymously, critics were forced to focus on the content rather than the authors.

      How about we consider the case of Elijah Parish Lovejoy, a man who should have stayed anonymous but didn't. He published a newletter critical of slavery. A mob of people, after having already destroyed his presses multiple times, came back to do it again and killed him in the process.

      While some people act poorly when they are anonymous, our society would suffer greatly without the work of many anonymous heroes--people who only had the courage to act better than normal because they were anonymous.

    2. Re:privacy vs anonymity by drDugan · · Score: 1

      Your points are well made: but it is typically privacy protection that will allow people to voice opinions and facts without persecution, not anonymity as I wrote it above, nor as most people understand the word, "anonymous". You're points strike exactly at the subtle difference between the two ideas.

      In your examples these people were not (strictly speaking) anonymous, but rather their identity was hidden from the public and from those who would harm them. Some people did know the identity of the heroes you mention, and those who knew could not and were not compelled to reveal the identity of the person: it is for exactly this and other examples that we need strong(er) *privacy* protections. Journalists who are protected by the courts when asked to reveal sources or whistle blowers, for example. Publishers who can and do publish works by pseudonym is another example.

      Anonymity typically means that no one knows (or can know) who the actor or author is because the ratio of possible sources to the total group is too high to dig through and find the source. This is a fundamentally different case to when a known person is doing something dangerous and others are enabled and empowered (even expected) to protect that person's identity.

    3. Re:privacy vs anonymity by YenTheFirst · · Score: 1

      A minor nitpick, that still is relevant. Privacy also has a second definition, especially historically: the right to seclusion.

      --
      It's not stupid. It's Advanced.
    4. Re:privacy vs anonymity by sjames · · Score: 1

      While information a person chooses to post may restrict the level of anonymity the post enjoys, that is the choice of the poster. The idea is that nobody can be compelled to provide identifying information. They may choose to.

      That is, /. has every right to offer the post anonymously checkbox and to choose not to maintain a log of who checks it. I may choose not to check that box.

      If I want to register an account as the postinator and claim that I live on Mars, I may do so without legal consequences.

  21. Parallels with US Bill of rights by davidwr · · Score: 1

    Well, if you take the United States model, and applying it to employers and other non-government powers:

    *Freedom of religion: Freedom of hardware- and software-platform choice
    *Freedom of speech and press: The right to point out flaws in hardware, software, and methodologies without fear of retribution
    *Right to assemble and petition: Right to suggest changes to the way things are done, individually or as a group
    *Keep and bear arms: Form unions, trade associations, user's groups, and other collectives who can monitor and if necessary check the power of employers, industry, the government, and even end users should their collectives become too powerful
    *Protection from quartering of troops: It's my computer, not yours. No freeloading my CPU cycles or keeping me from what I want to do with it without permission. I payed for my fancy video card, don't you go blocking it *coughDRMcough*
    *Unreasonable search and seizure: You can have my encryption keys after you pry them from my cold, dead brain cells.
    *Due process, etc: Police should need court review before intercepting communications or seizing data, including meta-data like communications logs or cell-phone locations. The bigger the potential for abuse or the consequences for getting it wrong, the more court oversight.
    *Trial by jury, speedy and fair trial, confront withnesses, etc.: All evidence should be examined in a court of law and all technology used to gather evidence subject to scrutiny by defense experts for the purposes of mounting a defense. This trumps trade secrets. If a computer that is itself not illegal to possess is allegedly used to commit a crime, either prove that it was used in a crime quickly or give it back before it depreciates to nothing.
    *Civil trial by jury: Sorry, I got nothing.
    *Excessive bail and cruel and unusual punishment: Except in prison, don't deny the use of technology which is necessary for the living of a modern life, except in very narrowly tailored cases and for a minimal period of time, and then only as a parole condition.
    *Not a complete list of right. 'nuff said.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  22. removal of government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Governments are the only ones who violate us using our technology. Remove the government to solve 99% of problems. The rest can be solved privately and personally.

    1. Re:removal of government by The+Master+Control+P · · Score: 1

      If ignorance is bliss, then the ignorance of history necessary to believe that problems are solved by removing all government must make you the happiest person on earth.

      Humans, and any groups of humans which encounter each other with any regularity, organize themselves and their groups into hierarchies. Stable top-level hierarchies are usually called "government" and will always eventually form. Good government and bad government is a choice, no government is not.

  23. Software evidence by amicusNYCL · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If the result or output of a software program is to be used as evidence in court, then the code of that program needs to be made available to the court for analysis.

    In 20 years it's going to be a no-brainer that if you're using the output of an algorithm as legal evidence then the algorithm should be up for scrutiny, so I'm not sure why people have difficulty understanding that now (especially as it relates to things like voting machines and breathalyzers).

    --
    "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
  24. 1. Yes

    2. Yes

    3. Bad idea. The enormous range in user perceptiveness (from those who wouldn't recognize an exploit if it popped up a dialog saying "Let your computer be pwnt by teh China? Y/N" to those who run multiple hardware firewalls, IDSes and remote loggers) and the difficulty of creating an objective metric for what constitutes "malicious" and "unknowingly run" will make this a nightmare.

    It's called "personal responsibility" folks: You are responsible for your computer and what it does. If you can prove that you took reasonable measures to prevent whatever badness happened from happening, you get off scot free. Bonus: Attaches a risk and cost to being a dumbass online at last.

    4. Torn, and it's a sticky problem as TFA says...

    5. Yes

    6. Yes

  25. Right to Remain Silent and Ignorant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. You have the right to pay whatever we ask.

    2. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will probably be ignored, or used against you.

    3. You have the right to remain ignorant. We will not tell you anything unless you ask specific questions.

    4. You have the right to arbitration, by an arbiter we choose, which will be binding towards yourself.

    5. You have the right to cancel anytime, subject to minimum cancellation penalties.

    Thats all I find necessary. I'm sure the RIAA and MPAA can find more rights for us to enjoy.

  26. More important rights.... by Darkness404 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Article 1. Any individual shall be able to choose anonymity when posting to Internet sites

    I disagree with this. While I do believe in the fundamental right to anonymity, it is totally up to the sites owners to make them anonymous or not. For example, lets say this happened to Facebook, you would be instantly hit by a whirlpool of spam, bots, etc.

    I believe you have a right to remain fundamentally anonymous, for example I believe in the right to be able to use temporary anonymous e-mail accounts, the right to use Tor and other anonymity proxies, You should have a right to remain anonymous if you so choose, however sites should have the right to require registration to maintain the sanity of the site. But, similarly allowing anonymous postings on a site should be a right for the owners of the site too.

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    1. Re:More important rights.... by Strake · · Score: 1

      I disagree with this. While I do believe in the fundamental right to anonymity, it is totally up to the sites owners to make them anonymous or not.

      ...and whether or not to call them "cowards".

  27. How about... by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Material you create on an electronic device is *yours* and if that is encrypted or "protected" by some third party technology you always have the right to break that technology to get to the content you rightly own.

    Yes.. this is directly in contrast with the DMCA... and it's outrageous.

    1. Re:How about... by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      > Material you create on an electronic device is *yours* and if that is encrypted or
      > "protected" by some third party technology you always have the right to break that
      > technology to get to the content you rightly own.

      This is true.

      > Yes.. this is directly in contrast with the DMCA

      No it isn't.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  28. A technology "bill of rights" might be a good idea by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

    But not one that defines "technology" as "teh intertubes". We have been deeply and irrevocably dependent on technology for millennia (hint: Weaving is technology. Cooking is technology. Agriculture is technology). A "technology bill of rights" that described individual rights to technology in the broad sense would be interesting and possibly desireable. One that focuses on "technology" as defined by the newsies would deal only with transient superficial issues with the particular gadgets currently in vogue and would be at best silly.

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  29. The abolition of copyright and patent. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People must have a right to commicate arbitrary information without interference. If copyright law says they don't, then copyright law is wrong and must be abolished.

  30. Nothing to see here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Relax, you needn't worry your pretty little heads over this stuff of which you know nothing, let your friends at Microsoft write it for you; you'll like it....really, you will....it will be against the law not to.

    Thou shalt not use Open Source software unless thou payest Microsoft loadsa cash. Thou shall get a discount if thou uses Open Source on Windows. Thou shall be treated as a terrorist if thou uses Open Source on Linux.

    That kinda sounds more like a commandment from God but you get the joke.....right? I'm looking at the M$ astroturfers here since their sense-of-humour.exe seems to have crashed at times.

    As much as this will be modded as either a Troll or FlameBait when it's supposed to be funny, it's probably more true than we'd like to admit and certainly more true than we'd like. The only exaggerated part is that it won't just be Microsoft seeking to write it for us, they will only be co-authors.

  31. The most fundamental right by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

    I'd say the most important right is the right to know the true identity of the person sending you V14GR4 spam, so that you can (if you so choose) track them down and kick their ass! Of course, this is more of a technical problem (the current email system is severely flawed) than a legal one.

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  32. Mister Jalopy said it well by emptynet · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The Maker's Bill of Rights
    • Meaningful and specific parts lists shall be included.
    • Cases shall be easy to open.
    • Batteries should be replaceable.
    • Special tools are allowed only for darn good reasons.
    • Profiting by selling expensive special tools is wrong and not making special tools available is even worse.
    • Torx is OK; tamperproof is rarely OK.
    • Components, not entire sub-assemblies, shall be replaceable.
    • Consumables, like fuses and filters, shall be easy to access.
    • Circuit boards shall be commented.
    • Power from USB is good; power from proprietary power adapters is bad.
    • Standard connecters shall have pinouts defined.
    • If it snaps shut, it shall snap open.
    • Screws better than glues.
    • Docs and drivers shall have permalinks and shall reside for all perpetuity at archive.org.
    • Ease of repair shall be a design ideal, not an afterthought.
    • Metric or standard, not both.
    • Schematics shall be included.

    http://makezine.com/04/ownyourown/

    1. Re:Mister Jalopy said it well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      * Metric or standard,not both.

      Well, unless metric or standard is a toggle switch.

  33. Yeah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People act better when they know they are not anonymous.

    And I'm not really a coward!

  34. Unlimited porn access for all by XPeter · · Score: 4, Funny

    Don't read my sig.

    --
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits" - Albert Einstein
    1. Re:Unlimited porn access for all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's called bit torrent.

      and instead of subscribing to this shit pit of a website why don't you save up for college. or beer.

    2. Re:Unlimited porn access for all by XPeter · · Score: 1

      Mom says if I go out of the basement and socialize once a month (school not included), she'll pay for my /. subscription :-D

      --
      "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits" - Albert Einstein
  35. Freedom of the press by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

    This reminds me of something that came up when I was doing some research in a university course years ago.

    "Freedom of the press" means freedom of the *owner* of the press to print what him/her sees fit. Nobody purely has the right to have something they wrote printed anywhere. You have the right to go buy your own press or you have the right to rent someone else's press (which makes you a "temporary" owner), but no one has the right to go to their local newspaper, for instance, and insist that they print their letter to the editor. If you want something printed you play by their rules and that determination is made by the owner of the press, not the government.

    Here's how I think this applies here: the owner of the web site has the right to allow anonymity or to not allow anonymity. You don't have the right to have something printed on a web site you don't own unless you play by their rules. It's the owner of the web site's call, and allowing anonymous postings is the call of the owner of the web site, not the government. I think that's the right that should not be infringed.

    1. Re:Freedom of the press by Improv · · Score: 1

      That freedom of the press wasn't intended as a timeless and eternal statement about the rest of time - it had specific meaning embedded in the institutions of their society. What we *can* get out of it in the very different society we have now is the values that suggested that particular construct.

      Part of the background for colonial free press was a rich, high-volume ecosystem of political journals/newsletters as people discussed and informed each other directly - part of this was encouraged by mail policy set by the founding fathers, whereby post for a newsletter or journal was determined by the amount of advertisement in it - the FF believed that the informational/discussion function of these was so important to a functioning democracy that they wanted that content to be fully subsidised.

      A combination of economies of scale, media consolidation, and consumerist mindsets have stifled that tradition in the United States - the once-common widespread access to one of many presses and an abundance of journals/newsletters/forums has been greatly diminished.

      (note that I'm mainly commenting on your argument, not your conclusion)

      --
      For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
  36. Oh hell yes... by TiggertheMad · · Score: 1

    This is a great idea. I have been releasing a 'user rights' doc with software I work on for awhile now.

    Here's one of the things I wanted to include:

    The user has a right to know what ports on their machine will be used for any communication, and the locations where software makes changes to their machine (install locations, save locations, .ini files, registry changes)

    --

    HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
  37. Nothing will change while lobbyists own congress by schwit1 · · Score: 1

    Campaign finance laws need to be fixed first, otherwise these rights will be nothing more than amusing discussions for MAFIAA lobbyists.

  38. 10th amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why do we need a bill of rights concerning technology. Doesn't the 10th amendment already cover this?

    Always be careful when you define rights! If you enumerate them, they are often assumed by the gov't that these are your ONLY rights. This holds for both defining rights positively or defining what the government cannot do.

    Look at the rife abuse of the 2nd, 9th, and 10th amendments!

    1. Re:10th amendment by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      Doesn't the 10th amendment already cover this?

      Sure, it would if people would all recognize the same set of rights.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
  39. All Knowledge is Human Knowledge!!! by cenc · · Score: 2, Interesting

    All Knowledge is Human Knowledge!!!

    Start with that premise, and then restrict defaulting back to that assumption unless otherwise specifically restricted for good reason. Similar concept of State and individual rights structure found in the U.S. constitution (well in theory anyway).

    It does not belong to one company, it does not belong to one person, or country, it belongs to the humanity. No one thinks up the next great invention in a vacuum. They went to school, they read other peoples ideas, they used a human language to express it. It belongs to humanity.

    Yes, there should be certain restrictions on who can make use of the knowledge (e.g. how to make atomic bombs, what I had for breakfast), but without compelling reason it should default to the public domain.

    1. Re:All Knowledge is Human Knowledge!!! by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      O RLY? What is in my head could save the world. But, because you demand rights to my knowledge, I will not let it out.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    2. Re:All Knowledge is Human Knowledge!!! by Microlith · · Score: 1

      without compelling reason it should default to the public domain.

      How about the compelling reason that some ideas require monetary investment to bring to fruition, and forcing people to release into the public domain basically ensures that no one will commit resources to it.

      Sure, -some- will commit resources but not to the extent you see today.

    3. Re:All Knowledge is Human Knowledge!!! by shentino · · Score: 1

      And your unaltruistic attitude of "I don't give a fuck if my ideas could save the world, either cough up the dough or die" is precisely why we have problems.

      As long as humans care about themselves more than the common good, they will happily exploit the altruism of others without reciprocating (i.e., defecting/cheating).

      Altruism is funny though, in that it requires the "immediate and total cooperation from everybody at once" that is oft cited in why anti-spam measures won't work.

      The problem is that if even one human is inherently selfish, that ruins the utopia for everyone. Hence, nobody can afford to be an altruist. One person does it out of greed, and everyone else either follows suit to cover their ass, or gets screwed to hell.

      In short, I don't think that a "bill of rights" is actually going to solve anything in the long run.

      Even today, the REAL "bill of rights" is getting stomped on post 9/11. Honestly, I'm surprised it lasted as long as it has.

    4. Re:All Knowledge is Human Knowledge!!! by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      No. Your attitude of "I deserve everything I want and I should not have to pay for anything! Fuck you if you think your work and knowledge is worth something! Gimme! Gimme! Gimme!" is why we have a problem.

      Now, go fuck yourself, you selfish asshole.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
  40. Nothing by Cajun+Hell · · Score: 1

    A technology bill of rights should have zero items, but thinking about tech is a good excuse to review/update what rights people have.

    But that list should be invariant, whether we're talking about intergalactic-warp-travelling nano-enhanced genetically modified cyber-transhumans, or cave men whose highest tech is ability-to-start fire.

    Your rights are your rights, and technology doesn't have a damn thing to do with it.

    --
    "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
  41. morally wrong, politically wrong,wrong in practice by bcrowell · · Score: 1

    TFA is wrong in three different ways: morally, politically, and practically.

    Its proposals are morally wrong because they trample on individual freedom. For instance, #1 says "Any individual shall be able to choose anonymity when posting to Internet sites." Okay, I run a site that catalogs free books, and accepts user-submitted reviews. When new users register, it's made very clear to the new user that he needs to provide his real name. The reason is that I don't want people reviewing their own books. No, I'm not under the illusion that 100% of people are truthful about this. However, the author of TFA seems to be proposing that the government prohibit me from even setting this as a policy on my site. That's absurd. If users don't like the fact that I require them to give their real names, I can't force them to visit my site.

    Politically it's wrong, because he seems to be completely clueless about the nature of individual rights in a constitutional democracy. Individual rights are not about telling A that he has to give B something, or forcing A to associate with B, or telling A that if he wants to do business he needs to act in a certain way. Individual rights have to do with being left alone, especially with being left along by the government. You can believe that the government has other legitimate functions besides safeguarding individual rights, but that doesn't mean that those other functions qualify as individual rights. If you think government should be inspecting cuts of beef to make sure they won't make people sick, then that's a perfectly legitimate, mainstream political opinion in the U.S. -- but it has absolutely nothing to do with any supposed individual right not to get sick.

    And finally, he's wrong in practice, because these ideas are all just stupid in the context of, say, the United States in the year 2009. Taking his items one by one:

    1. No anonymous posting. Stupid, as discussed above.
    2. Net neutrality. The basic problem is a problem with monopolies, not a problem with a lack of individual rights. In my neighborhood, for example, I have only one broadband provider I can choose. Because of that, I can't vote with my feet if they start imposing loathsome restrictions on how much bandwidth I can use for different things. Get rid of the monopoly, which is the real problem. The U.S. has antitrust legislation already on the books. If that legislation already covers local broadband providers, then let's get it enforced. If it doesn't, then let's pass stronger antitrust laws. If people had a choice, they wouldn't choose a broadband provider that didn't offer net neutrality.
    3. Users not responsible for malware. We already have laws about this kind of thing. We have employment law. We have laws about negligence. If I build a killer robot in my front yard, and it eats small children on the way to school, the law already discusses to what extent I'm in civil and/or criminal trouble. If someone else puts a killer robot in my front yard without my knowledge, we have laws about that as well. Likewise if I'm at work, and someone puts a killer robot in my cubicle, and it eats my PHB -- which is esentially what happened in the case he refers to. Can my employer fire me because the killer robot ate my PHB without my knowledge? I dunno, check you state's employment laws, and check your employment contract.
    4. Closed-source software houses responsible for security flaws. We already have laws about this kind of thing, e.g., implied warranties of merchantability and suitability for a particular purpose. These may or may not apply to software in your state -- I dunno, I'm not a lawyer. Want to change the law? Go ahead, but there are obvious reasons not to go too far with this kind of thing. For instance, I don't think car manufacturers should be responsible for drunk drivers, and I don't think Microsoft should be responsible for people who double-click on malware that was sent to them attached to penis-enlargement spams.
    5. Only OSS for government. Tax prep
  42. Wishy washy by Fleeced · · Score: 1

    A lot of these "rights" seem a bit wishy-washy. The US bill of rights works because they are primarily a list of "negative rights" - ie, a list of things the government can't do/take from you. These proposals read more like a list of entitlements (eg, net neutrality, the right to post anonymously) or government contractual obligations (eg, required to use open source). That doesn't necessarily mean that these things aren't desirable, but they don't belong in a bill of rights, imo.

    For example, the "right to post anonymously on any internet site". Anonymity is good - but if it's my site, then it's my rules - this clause is a violaion of my property rights as the site owner. Don't like my rules? Post somewhere else. It's a similar case with net neutrality... I know this is a popular cause amongst fellow-slashdotters, but if I provide network access, then I should be able to constrain/restrict access in any way I please (provided I disclosed the rules when I sold access). Don't get me wrong - I want to see access open as well - but this is best served through the market. The only reason it's a problem now is because of government legislation creating huge companies or "regional monopolies", etc...

    On a slight tangent: We don't even have a normal bill of rights in Australia - let alone a technological one - but whenever people talk about introducing one (which I love the idea of in principle), they talk of including things like, a "right to a job" and a "right to a free education". This is the challenge in any proposed bill of rights - to ensure they don't become a bill of entitlements to other people's property[1]

    [1] Though IP rights are a separate issue here, since there's valid debate about whether or not IP is/should be considered real property or not.

  43. Please, don't ever let this guy write the law by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Every single one of the six points is silly.

    1. Any individual shall be able to choose anonymity when posting to Internet sites

    Well, we've done this one plenty before, but it's still ultimately down to the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory. With freedom comes responsibility. An anonymous party cannot effectively be held accountable for their actions. QED.

    Oh, and please spare us the sob story about a hypothetical oppressive regime where anonymous speech on the Internet will bring the cure for cancer and world peace. This is not the US a few centuries ago. In modern countries where free speech with your name attached is not protected, anonymity on the Internet is pretty far down the list of priorities and hardly going to be the decisive factor in making things better (not least because if you have access to the Internet at all, it's probably strictly monitored by the state and your identity is known before you ever reach a keyboard anyway).

    2. No network provider may constrain or restrict access to the Internet in any way, shape, or form other than agreed-upon access speeds

    Ah, yes, let's have the lawyers interfere with running the Internet, because that always works out well.

    What is wrong with a non-neutral Internet anyway? All that really seems to mean is giving preferential bandwidth to some services over others, and frankly, if you think your five-reader blog is as important as Google or BBC News then you're the deluded one. Likewise, if you see a high-bandwidth future where streaming services and remote applications are popular or even the norm, you'd better start studying economics if you think the current financial models are going to support it.

    As for crushing the little guy, I have yet to see an argument that isn't pure FUD. A huge amount of Internet traffic isn't from the big businesses who are really going to be affected by such laws, and there is always going to be a demand for the valuable part of that traffic, creating a market for providing such access. We already have competition laws in place should anyone start actually abusing the system to close out that market artificially, and otherwise, why isn't it just commercial dealing, on which foundation we seem to have managed to get this far?

    3. No individual shall be held liable for effects of malware or malicious code unknowingly run on a personal computer

    Throw in something about negligence and perhaps. But if you're one of the dumbfucks who connects a computer to the Internet and then spews out lots of spam because you're too ignorant to learn basic security, then you are a liability to the rest of the world and deserve to be cut off until you learn better.

    One court case with a stupid outcome does not negate this point, incidentally.

    4. A company that produces and sells closed source software for use on computers shall be responsible for the security of that product, and a user has a right to seek damages in the event of a failure to secure their product

    Way to go, you just undermined the entire software development world. Little, if any, of the software running on most computers today would have been developed under this model, because there would be no sound business case for taking on such a risk under conditions that will never be perfect. Most consumers, private and business alike, simply don't need — or want to pay the disproportionate cost for — that level of quality.

    Oh, and spare us the blatant Open-Source-by-the-back-door pitch, please. If you want to compete, make a better product. Forcing competition out of the market through dubious legal tricks is pathetic when big business tries it to prop up their dying business models, and it will be just as pathetic if the OSS world tries it if it turns out that they don't really make better products after all.

    5. Any software or hardware used to conduct or support laws and public policy shall be open-source

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    1. Re:Please, don't ever let this guy write the law by bugi · · Score: 1

      Even in the US, there are regularly cases in which one must fight for one's civil rights, freedom of speech and otherwise.

    2. Re:Please, don't ever let this guy write the law by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Yes, there are. I'm from the UK, which is hardly the last refuge of freedom and civil liberties right now, so I hear where you're coming from.

      But I think there are more effective ways to fight for those rights in our two countries than writing some random, anonymous blog. For example, I contribute financially to a variety of charities and advocacy groups whose actions and campaigns I believe in supporting. All of those contributions have my name under them: I am proud to support those causes. Likewise, on the odd occasions when I have written to my elected representatives or other officials, it has my signature right there at the bottom of the letter and my address at the top, so they know I'm a real person with a real vote.

      Put another way, of Howdershelt's four boxes, if anonymity is required merely to use the soap box, it's time to move on to the other three.

      "There are four boxes to be used in the defence of liberty: soap, ballot, jury and ammo. Please use in that order."

      Ed Howdershelt

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    3. Re:Please, don't ever let this guy write the law by bugi · · Score: 1

      See wikileaks.org.

    4. Re:Please, don't ever let this guy write the law by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Sorry, you are simply wrong on #3. I shouldn't have to bog down my system with unneeded complexity to prevent evil-doers from infecting my system (and, by association, yours as well). Go after the anti-social losers who come up with the malicious code--not my 70 year old parents who don't know the difference between a bit and a byte.

    5. Re:Please, don't ever let this guy write the law by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      One of us has a sustainable approach. The other one's approach is responsible for most of the problems plaguing the Internet today. Sorry, but we're going to have to agree to disagree about who's wrong.

      I wouldn't let your 70-year-old parents drive if they could no longer see more than 20 feet in front of the car, either, but I have no problem with 100-year-olds driving if they're safe when doing so. Age is irrelevant, but competence is not.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    6. Re:Please, don't ever let this guy write the law by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      You are assuming that surfing the web without antivirus software is just as dangerous (or more) than driving a car. Perhaps our geek-centric view has clouded our judgment, but the reason we require driver's licenses and vision tests is because you can kill somebody with a car. My computer-as-net-bot doesn't even rate on the serious scale, in comparison.

    7. Re:Please, don't ever let this guy write the law by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      I'm assuming no such thing. I'm merely assuming that both dangerous driving and insecure computers on the Internet cause significant damage to society that is worth preventing, and noting that personal responsibility for competence is one possible way to assist such prevention that would be applicable in both scenarios.

      And remember, while insecure computers may not kill people directly, they certainly can be a route to things like identity theft for individuals and extortion/denial of service for organisations, both of which are pretty crippling if you're on the wrong end of them. We're not just talking about a background effect on the whole Internet's efficiency, with the knock-on cost and performance hit for everyone, though of course that is a significant problem in itself.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  44. Terms of Service by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

    The right to continue service under the terms which you agreed and the striking of the ability of a service provider to unilaterally alter the terms of service without notice. New service terms must be tied to new services; failure to agree to the new terms must only bar access to the new services and not restrict access to services under the previous agreement. Discontinuation of old services must either include access to equivalent level of replacement service without change to agreement or a discount on the service provided equivalent to the replacement value of the discontinued service to the user.

    Any and all changes to agreements must include access to the complete old and new agreements and clear annotations showing the changes, noting both stricken text and additions.

    Service overage charges must be in keeping with the charges incurred for the next tier of service or proportional to current service and not be punitive in nature. If overages would be in far excess of expected billing (more than double the previous month's billing), access is to be suspended until authorization for overage is granted. Service provider is responsible for all overages not authorized by the user. User is not responsible for any overage caused by service provider or a third party outside the user's control.

    --
    Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    1. Re:Terms of Service by bugi · · Score: 1

      All contracts must be negotiable. None of this take it or leave it stuff from monopoly DSL and cable carriers.

  45. I think the debate over whether it should be by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2, Interesting

    called a "bill of rights" is pretty silly. So call it something else. Big deal.

    Anyway, here are some items I think should be added to the ones in TFA:

    (A) Any digital information published or disseminated to the public by any government agency shall be distributed in an open, non-proprietary format. (This is prompted by my local city bureaucracy insisting on publishing "public" information in the latest version of Word... which a great many people have no way to easily read. Yes, I am aware that Microsoft makes available a free Word reader, but almost nobody outside of IT knows about it.) This would also have the effect of goading software companies to better support open standards.

    (B) The fruits of University and other research that is subsidized by public funds belong in the public domain. Repeal the Bayh-Dole act, which sought to motivate University researchers, but which instead has resulted in corporate ownership of publicly funded inventions and discoveries.

  46. don't by bugi · · Score: 2

    If you make it general enough to handle even just basic human rights, it'll be vague enough to game.

    If you make it specific, the fascists will claim that it's an enumeration of right and so no other rights exist.

    You may recall some of these arguments from the discussion about whether to adopt the US Bill of Rights, or to simply let the Constitution stand on its own.

    Also remember, the internet extends beyond just your country.

  47. You want "rights"? by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

    How about you respect the rights of others first?
    How about a bill of responsibilities as well.

    --
    There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
  48. Tyranny? by Improv · · Score: 1

    Seriously? Is what the word means so empty that we can call bad technology policy decisions tyranny? Put another way, are we so cynical about political discussion that we need to use crazily charged words like tyranny to label those who are not as libertene as we like? If so, why are we bothering to have the discussion at all?

    Getting sensible policies is important, both in creating a society we'd like to live in and in keeping society as a whole working smoothly, but using words like tyranny so lightly closes discussions and alienates people (plus it makes the user look foolish in front of people who actually know what words mean).

    --
    For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
    1. Re:Tyranny? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tyranny is a reality whether you play it down or not. Our founding fathers knew this, and designed our nation on the principles of protecting the people from their own government. This is not, as you put it, a radical concept.

  49. Democrats, Republicans, and Rights by falconwolf · · Score: 2, Interesting

    No wonder Democrats so frequently assume that the 2nd amendment means something that it doesn't--they believe (or at least, appear to believe) that rights and apparently human dignity are government-granted...!

    Except Republicans oppose rights, small "r" not capital, as well. For instance Republicans support Three Strikes Laws and manditory minimum sentencing laws. Though some Democrats support them as well most Republicans love drug laws. During the 2008 presidential campaign only Republican Ron Paul wanted to get rid of these laws. Former Reform politician Jessy "The Body" Ventura has been vocal about getting rid of them too. A few days ago on CNN's Larry King show he said they should be legalized.

    Falcon

  50. Nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How about nothing.

    Nothing good can come out of government regulating the Internet.

  51. I don't know why its scary: by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    the Bill of Rights itself is the product of discussion, debate, and democratic process. Sure, they reflect a means of protecting what at least a significant portion of those discussing and debating thought were fundamental rights in natural law, but they were no less a product of political process than any other law.

    Some Founding Fathers like Alexander Hamilton opposed Rights being included in the Constitution. So the Constitution was approved without them but with the understanding that a Bill of Rights would be added as an amendment. They believed that the protection of rights, Capital and small "r", was not needed. Hamilton argued "Here, in strictness, the people surrender nothing, and as they retain everything, they have no need of particular reservations."

    But as a previous poster said the USA has moved from a country in which people enjoy "unalienable rights" to one where government has rights and grants them. And both Democrats and Republicans are responsible.

    Falcon

    1. Re:I don't know why its scary: by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Some Founding Fathers like Alexander Hamilton opposed Rights being included in the Constitution. So the Constitution was approved without them but with the understanding that a Bill of Rights would be added as an amendment. They believed that the protection of rights, Capital and small "r", was not needed. Hamilton argued "Here, in strictness, the people surrender nothing, and as they retain everything, they have no need of particular reservations."

      Given how much of an authoritarian, centralizer, and advocate of the idea of broad implied government powers Hamilton turned out to be once the Constitution was in force (and, in fact, had already shown himself to be as a member of the Congress under the Articles of Confederation), one might reasonably take his rhetoric about why the Constitution shouldn't explicitly protect individual rights with a grain of salt.

      One should not forget that the Founders were also politicians.

  52. The right to a independent experts for court cases by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The right to a independent experts for court cases dealing with Technology that both sides can use and right to be able to use one for free as well as being to have your own.

  53. Impossible by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    Any Bill of Rights is impossible today, because I believe it is fundamentally impossible to find a large enough group people to matter that are:
    - basically of normal or higher intelligence
    - qualified to discuss such topics
    - connected enough to matter
    - capable of actual altruism

    1775 was an exceptional year for humanity, sadly not to be repeated.

    --
    -Styopa
  54. fair use by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    you have to buy something sometime. once you have done so, as long as you own the original licensed copy, you can replicate it on other gadgets for more convenient use. as long as you only use ONE at a time, and don't give any of it away to non-licensed users.

    Except the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) has made fair use illegal in some cases. Look at the ruckus caused by DeCSS.

    Falcon

  55. self made child porn by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    At worst, you destroy the images/videos and write them a ticket.

    No, at worse in movies they made teens should be given a lecture.

    Falcon

  56. My ideas by Lord+Kano · · Score: 2, Interesting

    1. Any hardware or software product that is no longer sold must have all source code available under an open-source (not necessarily free) license.
    2. It must be legal and possible to backup anything that one has paid for.

    LK

    --
    "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
  57. Just a few ideas ... by Frater+219 · · Score: 1
    1. Freedom of speech and of the press; freedom of religion and assembly; freedom to speak your mind without fear of governmental violence of any sort. Can't say it too many times: expression is sacrosanct.
    2. Right to keep, control, and protect one's own property. The rights of physical property owners to control devices in their ownership reaffirmed over and against claims by "intellectual property" owners. You don't get to scramble my hard drive just because you think maybe I'm a pirate.
    3. Domestic espionage upon political rivals by government agencies, or other use of law enforcement powers for political gain, declared to be a "high crime" removing the perpetrator's right to run for office or occupy any government position.
    4. Protection from unnecessarily destructive or disruptive searches and seizures. Disallow seizure of property when access to information is sufficient for law enforcement purposes: if you need a copy of a public Web site, you take it with "wget" from a secured and audited computer certified to be part of the evidence chain, not by seizing all the owner's computers, stereo, and video game systems too.
    5. Right against self-incrimination extended to passwords, crypto keys.
    6. Right to technically competent counsel in criminal cases where the details of technology are directly pertinent to the case.
  58. re: anonymity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have only one thing to say about that: Shitcock!

  59. What about rented webspace? by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    10.The Right to have free, uncensored speech on your own servers

    Webspace providers don't have the right to censor either.

    No, government does not have the right to censor, private entities should be able to control what is hosted on their own servers. If a webhost does not want to serve certain political speech, porn, or anything else they should have to right to refuse to host it. For every one that refuses to host some speech another will be willing to do so. Now those who shouldn't control content are the access, backbone, providers.

    Falcon

  60. We Control It by Alpha+Prime · · Score: 1

    I have a saying that keeps me secure in my house and my office:

    "If it comes into my possession, I control it."

    What that means is that it does exactly what I say, does not call home unless I let it, does not keep hidden logs, does not have back doors, does not answer to anyone but me or the person I have controlling it. I think if this were phrased in lawyer speak, then that would be all we need from technology.

    There would be no DRM, there would be no humans answering to robots, ever, even if the robots were made to be security guards, and that is in progress as we speak. There would be no way a manufacturer could say that you could not use their machine in the way you want.

  61. My ideas to improve the list by jonwil · · Score: 1

    Article 1 is good, I like that.

    Article 2. No network provider may constrain or restrict access to the Internet in any way, shape, or form other than agreed-upon access speeds unless such constraints/restrictions are required by law (i.e. ISPs being forced to take action by a legal order from law enforcement) or are required to stop actions that are negatively impacting on the network providers network

    The last bit allows ISPs to block viruses and malware (e.g. cut someone off who is part of a DDOS attack and needs to be cut off because they are flooding th ISPs network or block spam zombies)

    Article 3. No individual shall be held liable for effects of malware or malicious code unknowingly run on a personal computer unless they were involved in the creation or dissemination of the malware or malicious code.

    This change ensures that if you create or distribute malware, you cant claim "I didn't know my virus was running on that computer, therefore I can't be held liable for it"

    I dont really agree with article 4, it puts a chilling effect on software developers. A better way to write this one would be:
    Article 4. A company that produces and sells closed source software for use on computers must disclose the existence of (if not the details of) any vulnerabilities discovered in their software and is prohibited from taking any action (under the DMCA or otherwise) against any person carrying out security research on their product or disclosing the findings of that research. In addition, software vendors must patch security holes in their product.

    This clause ensures that security research can continue

    Article 5, yes I agree on the software front (source code for breathalysers, voting machines, speed cameras etc) should be available. But hardware, no, not unless its a specific part created for the device (so if its a sensor specifically designed to measure alcohol, yes, make that open, but if its just a general purpose part like a NAND gate or a Microprocessor, no, it doesn't need to be open source)

    Agree with Article 6

    Add some more:
    Article 7. No network provider may modify any network traffic unless such modification is part of the normal operation of the network.

    This clause prevents ISPs from doing DNS hijacking, web page modifications (inserting ads into pages for example) and other such stuff. It would in no way prevent operation of transparent web page caches (which many ISPs provide)

    Article 8. No network provider shall be allowed to provide any customer details (including details linking an IP address with a customer account) to anyone unless they are authorized by the customer to provide that information, have a valid law enforcement order (warrant etc) or a valid order from a court of law. (this prevents the RIAA/MPAA/etc from simply asking ISPs to provide details of "alleged" file sharers)

    Article 9. Any software, hardware or technology produced by the government or produced at the using government money (including research carried out using government money) will be freely available for everyone to use unless there is a legitimate need to keep it secret (e.g. military hardware or secret spy software installed on a computer in a foriegn government somewhere)

    Article 10. Anyone who is holding personal data (including addresses, credit card numbers, social security numbers, bank account details and health details) will be required to notify the public (and more specifically anyone affected) if they have evidence that any of the data they are holding may have been tampered with or accessed without permission. All companies holding such data will be required to take reasonable steps to ensure that the data they hold is kept secure, including taking any reasonable steps to prevent phishing and password theft (for example, anyone handling this data must ensure that the data is encrypted as it travels from the users PC to the companies servers)

    Article 11. All data produced by the government and made available to the public will

  62. More importantly... by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    If they really were inalienable, how come they're violated on a regular basis around the world?

    ...if they are inalienable how come the previous administration thought that they did not even apply to "aliens" (i.e. foreigners) in the US? Sad thing is the current administration seems to think so too since they have restarted the Guantanamo "trials".

    1. Re:More importantly... by Hubbell · · Score: 1

      The Constitution states the powers granted to the federal government, Amendments 1-9 of the bill of rights apply to US CITIZENS, not prisoners of war/enemy combatants, and Amendment 10 gives all powers not granted explicitly in the constitution to the states. Sadly, the interstate commerce clause in particular has been raped to hell and back to suit almost any need/desire congress feels.

    2. Re:More importantly... by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      Exactly so the US constitution clearly does not regard them as "inalienable" by the very definition of the word. In other countries they ARE "inalienable" since they apply to all subject to that country's laws, regardless of creed, colour or nationality.

  63. To be fair to the publishers by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 2, Interesting

    To be fair to the software publishers how about the right to remove and/or disable, and aid others to remove and/or disable, any DRM that in any way restricts the fair use rights of the user.

    I'd also go further and require that any software shipping with DRM that restricts any fair use rights should be required to have exactly what rights it restricts, and how it restricts them, labelled on the outside of the box.

    1. Re:To be fair to the publishers by LuYu · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'd also go further and require that any software shipping with DRM that restricts any fair use rights should be required to have exactly what rights it restricts, and how it restricts them, labelled on the outside of the box.

      What about future Fair Use rights? Fair Use, until very recently, was not codified, and even today, the enumeration in Title 17 is not a complete listing of all Fair Use rights (for instance, most people consider copying mp3s to a portable player or a phone to be Fair Use, but nowhere in the codified law does it say this is Fair Use, and a strict reading of the law would lead one to the conclusion that this activity was certainly illegal). Before codification and even now, many Fair Use rights are decided by precedent in the courts. How could a label cover all that?

      Still, I like the direction your thoughts are taking :-) A Surgeon General's style warning might be nice: "DRM has been known to cause fits of rage and even strokes in some individuals."

      --
      All data is speech. All speech is Free.
    2. Re:To be fair to the publishers by WeeBit · · Score: 1

      "I'd also go further and require that any software shipping with DRM that restricts any fair use rights should be required to have exactly what rights it restricts, and how it restricts them, labeled on the outside of the box."

      Please include "labeled in large text"

    3. Re:To be fair to the publishers by mr_matticus · · Score: 1

      for instance, most people consider copying mp3s to a portable player or a phone to be Fair Use, but nowhere in the codified law does it say this is Fair Use

      The reason that copying to a media player is not Fair Use is because it isn't. Fair Use is not fair use. No one with a brain considers it to be Fair Use. They consider it to be a fair use of the material. The Fair Use Doctrine has to do with commentary and other public uses with tangential-at-best economic competition. Certain decisions have tortured Fair Use in order to reach the proper conclusion, but only as a last resort.

      What you're thinking of is Personal Use. The conspicuous lack of such a doctrine is the result of all lobbying efforts for it being undermined by the crass and juvenile efforts of people on forums such as these. Between Slashdot greed and contempt and RIAA greed and contempt, there's no support for these measures and the proposed bills.

  64. Forced Updates, Upgrades by kryptowizard · · Score: 1

    I'd like to see something to prevent corporations from making money on annual updates with no real substance. I.E. A major anti virus revision every year at a cost of $30-60 per unit leads me to believe it's corporate greed rather than bonifide programming development which is the driving force. Updates for this would be fine. It seems every company is depending upon term upgrades to make their cash flow instead of quality, and then to control and enforce there cash cow by stopping the licensing, maintenance, etc of the older, but perfectly running product. Some examples would be HDDVD, Digital Transmitting, Operating Systems, and the like, all of which you can see being forced down to users by control, not my want or need.

  65. Positive Rights verses Negative Rights. by w3woody · · Score: 1

    If we're going to create a "bill of rights", then we should be careful that those rights are negative rights--that is, rights which prohibit taking certain actions (such as a right to be anonymous, which really is a right prohibiting authorities from requiring my personal information be gathered and stored), and not positive rights--that is, "rights" which require someone else to cede control or perform certain actions on my behalf. (For example, a "right" to a computer is a positive right--because it requires someone to give me a computer.)

    I'm all for piling up the negative rights--after all, they prohibit government from making me do things or making other people do things on my behalf. But positive rights are essentially demands on other people to act on my behalf--and that's no longer a "right", when you get right down to it.

    In that context, I can see calling for a right to anonymity, a right to tinker with hardware I own, and a right to free speech on-line regardless of location or local laws. In all three cases we can limit the definition to restrictions on government: government doesn't have the power to discover my identity online, government doesn't have the power to prosecute me if I tinker with hardware I own, government doesn't have the power to prosecute me for speaking my mind. (And I read the "right to anonymity" as meaning I have the right to lie when asked by a web site for my personal identifying information, so long as the lie does not allow me to steal services fraudulently.)

    But the rights outlined in the original article (besides anonymity) are all positive rights--they require the other person to behave in certain ways. Network neutrality, for example, requires that ISPs build their networks according to certain, externally imposed standards.

    While I'm for net neutrality, I'd be far more comfortable if that was codified as a law rather than enumerated as a fundamental right.

  66. The rights of software ... by marco.antonio.costa · · Score: 1

    ... to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

    --
    Send your spendthrift head of state this
  67. Well.. by crossmr · · Score: 1

    A unicorn in every stable and a fairy in every pot.

    If you're going to make up a document that is never going to happen you might as well go for broke..

  68. Close but no cigar by GrumblyStuff · · Score: 1

    Opt in.

    Opt out and that means the sort of bullshit, "Hey, we sent you a letter/email that might have looked like spam and could have been filtered out that said we're doing this and requesting you raise a fucking racket about it to get out of it."

    No. Neither that nor terms of use changes that are agreed to by logging in (think it was Facebook that did that). 'course if we get that, that means shrinkwrap licenses and EULA stuff would (should) be illegal.

  69. Glue sniffing is not a right by SL+Baur · · Score: 1

    I do not believe any of the items mentioned should be considered "right"s. You pay your money, you take your chances.

    Making an exemption for Open Source software in the Security article is particularly galling. If you're going to do something like that, you might as well abbreviate the whole document to:

    Article 1: Thou shalt have source code for every piece of software that you run on your computer.

    And even I do not believe in that to be a right.

  70. Extremely important by lawpoop · · Score: 1

    This line of thinking is extremely important.

    We like to think of our human rights as timeless and eternal, but think about this -- how much since would the freedom of the press in the second amendment make if we never had Gutenberg's printing press? In other words, what we think is important is dependent on our technological environment.

    That being said, we live in an age where almost all of our actions can be tracked and aggregated online. All our our movements ( cellphone GPS ), our purchases, our medical records, our contacts and interactions ( multi-person GPS interactions and phone and email logs).

    I think a beginning of an electronic bill of rights is the right to use end-to-end strong encryption and anonymizing technologies. Sure, you could say that you can be free from tracking, but how would you know? If you have a right to use encryption or anonymous communication, you can rest more assuredly that you're not being tracked or spied upon.

    Another idea might be information symmetry. You're allowed to know what other people 'know' or 'say' about you -- sort of like a free credit report, only for everything.

    --
    Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
    -- Pablo Picasso
  71. Anarchy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No rules... that's the point, right?

  72. No updates for the worse... by gy+equals+c · · Score: 1

    I'd like to see something that forbids manufacturers from pushing updates that remove or limit features. Apple bricking unlocked iPhones with an update, Creative removing record features in the Zen, etc. When I buy a gadget, I'm exchanging money for a set of features. Manufacturers shouldn't be able to alter the deal after the fact to my detriment, especially since they don't offer compensation for what they remove. Similarly, I'd love to see addressed Verizon's reaming of its customers by locking their phones' features. Verizon advertises phones with lots of features but locks up the functionality so they can make a few cents. You pay for it, you own it - but you can't use it.

  73. Net neutrality is not a right by Arthur+B. · · Score: 1

    Net neutrality is not an individual right because it prevents people from operating a network they own the way they like. An individual right is not connecting to such a network. Saying: if we connect to your network, then you have to be neutral is nothing but tyranny.

    --
    \u262D = \u5350
  74. Inalienable Rights by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Replying more to all the repliers above me than the parent: you people are completely misunderstanding what was meant by "inalienable rights".

    It does NOT mean that it is impossible to infringe on "inalienable rights". What it means is that there are a set of basic rights that apply to all human beings. They are "inalienable" because we desearve these rights by our very existance. However, just because they exist does not make them un-infringeable. What the constitution did by spelling those rights out in the Bill of Rights was make a promise that the US government would not infringe on those 10 basic rights.

    The system for discovering violations of these rights tends to be slow, since the government is large and things tend to escape notice for a while or simply take time to become sizeable enough to be noticed. However despite it's slow nature (or perhaps because of it?) the system is very effective, and we have essentially the same freedoms - more in some ways, in fact - that we had at the nation's founding.

    Our system was designed around protecting these basic, inalienable rights. Even if the mightiest of the mighty in this land - our elected officials, president, and SCOTUS - manage to screw up the Bill of Rights, there is always a do-over. Laws are constantly neutered or bolstered by the courts, SCOTUS decisions can and have been overturned by other SCOTUS decisions, Amendments to the Constitution can and have been supplanted by new amendments, and the President can and has been impeached.

    All this to protect our basic human rights (plus others, sure).

    That said, the promise (i.e. the Constitution) was not made to non-US citizens and so US actions outside the US territory are often ignored, and the oppression of other people is always ignored unless it somehow represents a direct threat to the freedom of US citizens.

    That's just the way it goes.

    --
    Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    1. Re:Inalienable Rights by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      It does NOT mean that it is impossible to infringe on "inalienable rights". What it means is that there are a set of basic rights that apply to all human beings. They are "inalienable" because we desearve these rights by our very existance. However, just because they exist does not make them un-infringeable.

      Frankly, it's just sophistry. There's no practical difference between "inalienable" right that is forcibly taken away from you by tyranny of majority, and the one you never had in the first place. Either way, you end up not having them...

    2. Re:Inalienable Rights by sjames · · Score: 1

      Actually, the Bill of Rights and the Constitution are constructed as limits that apply to the U.S. government wherever it may be. Both documents are careful to spell out explicitly when a right is restricted to citizens only (voting, holding elected office), otherwise it applies to everyone. The semantic games and sophistries that have been employed recently in order to systematically violate those rights of some non-citizens have no validity.

      What the constitution did by spelling those rights out in the Bill of Rights was make a promise that the US government would not infringe on those 10 basic rights.

      Actually, the Constitution and Bill of Rights promise not to violate ANY inalienable rights and then spell out a few of those just to make things more clear. It is quite explicit that there are more than are enumerated in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.

      Getting at the philosophy of the time, they came from a society where a King declared that he was the true and proper ruler by divine providence and that his government was legitimate because he (as an agent of God) said so.

      In contrast, the founding fathers maintained that a government's legitimacy was based solely on how well it respects inalienable rights and upon the consent of the governed.

    3. Re:Inalienable Rights by triskaidekaphile · · Score: 1

      Getting at the philosophy of the time, they came from a society where a King declared that he was the true and proper ruler by divine providence and that his government was legitimate because he (as an agent of God) said so.

      Divine right had been cast down centuries before by the Magna Carta, and George III was not a particularly powerful monarch. The many grievances expressed by the American colonies in the Declaration of Independence were in fact perpetrated by Parliament. Yes, an elective representative body was responsible for trampling the rights of the colonists. The members of the Continental Congresses knew this, and they also believed true power lay in the legislative branch. That's why the Bill of Rights says "Congress shall not..." rather than "government shall not..." Our courts and our society (so far) have decided that the Bill of Rights does indeed apply to all three branches of government and to the state governments.

      --
      @HbFyo0$k8 tH!$
  75. Open and Fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    any protocol and/or format used between any two or more separate legal entities must be in the public domain. Not allowed to encapsulate a private protocol/format within a public one to circumvent this.

    All IP (patent and copyright) is limited to a single generation (as defined by the length of time between birth and the legal voting age => currently 18 years). No generation should be able to "lockup" a following generation.

    Fair use of IP is clearly defined in IP law and not just a pile of case law.

  76. Rights and Assertions by DynaSoar · · Score: 1

    Without having authority to enforce it, or being willing and able to enforce it by assuming authority, such a document is simply a set of assertions. As a purely academic exercise and basis for discussion, the concept is admirable. But without it being accepted as its own source of authority or being associated with such a source (such as the Bill of Rights of the US constitution) or else being a summary of rights bestowed by an external authority with the means and ability to enforce the laws from which the summary is derived (such as the Patient's Rights statements offered at most US hospitals -- maybe elsewhere?), it remains purely academic.

    Most statements that assume the assertions therein are rights fail to account for the corresponding duties. In order for something to be a right, there must be a corresponding duty to validate, protect and enforce it (except "natural" rights which are assumed a priori as valid rights; even so, these are a rewrite of "God given" rights, authority from the ultimate source). When the work is a summary based on existing laws, the authority behind those laws has the duty to enforce them (indeed, may have been created at least in part for this purpose). without such authority, or when there is such an authority but it hasn't been consulted as to whether it will validate them as rights and agree to protect them, the work is simply a list of good ideas.

    In this particular instance it appears as though most of the assertions are derived from and are protected by existing laws (at least in the US). Unfortunately it also seems to be a summary of those laws which have been significantly eroded as of late. While the work may not carry authority, it can serve as a starting point for protecting the rights it claims and for regaining the eroded portions of the laws from which it is derived.

    Of course this too is academic. I taught this stuff as an introduction to bioethics. It comes from philosophy. In my opinion philosophy exists in large part to debate such things. I fully expect most of it could be argued against. Hell, I could, thanks to philosophy. In any case there's a decent summary of rights and duties at http://www.osjspm.org/rights_and_duties.aspx . Despite being Catholic social teaching, it is fairly even handed.

    --
    "I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
  77. How about the right to opt out... by stoicio · · Score: 1

    It is imperative that every individual has the right to opt out of
    technology if that person so desires.

    Forcing people to adopt technologies is tantamount to economic
    slavery due to predictable obsolescence.

  78. less is more by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

    Nothing, absolutely nothing, should be in a "technology bill of rights". Why?

    Simply put, the more thoroughly you define the 'shall not' ('shall not infringe') and 'shall' clauses ('the people are to be secure in their persons and effects') the more wiggle room is given to 'experiment' around the edges.

    For instance, while not perfect (in today's understanding/nomenclature), the US Bill of Rights is short. it was was even shorter when conceived (some would argue to the better), but it has covered every single right in this country for 230 years. Yes, there is case law to iron out the specifics as the need arises, but the general principles are pretty damn clear cut.

    At least in the US, this bullshit (the perceived need for a Technology Bill of Rights) is not necessary. Things like DRM, Trusted Computing, etc. could all be put to the courts under the "secure in one's person and effects" clause of the bill of rights. And you could assign pretty much anything as a corollary. Hell, what is an "arm"? Could you say that it's a constitutional right to be possess purely offensive digital tools in a largely digital world?

    --
    ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
  79. How about making software companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    responsible for their products as hardware companies are? I'm talking about being able to return for refund a buggy product such as a Windows OS. Maybe if people are given the option M$ will be forced to improve product quality.

  80. A RIGHT TO INVENT, INNOVATE AND THINK! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    nuf said. Inventing is basic human behaviour. A right to use independently discovered things. A right to use whatever you came up with.

  81. I'll call bull by Moraelin · · Score: 1

    Actually the Bill of Rights just codified our rights. Our rights are inalienable regardless of whether or not they are listed in the Bill of Rights.

    Actually, I'll call bull on that. There is no such thing as some free-floating rights that exist by themselves and they're not self-evident at all. All those rights are basically a contract between the members of society.

    Basically "right to life" for example just means, in a nutshell, I don't want to be killed, you don't want to be killed, so we make a truce that we won't kill each other. That's it, really.

    A lot have to do with basically just a list of abuses that those in power did before. And at some point the barons got together, took up arms and made the king write "I will not sentence people without a jury" on the blackboard 100 times... err... wrong movie. Made him sign the Magna Carta, which was really just a list of stuff that everyone was sick and tired of having done to them.

    Most of that stuff isn't self-evident at all, and humanity needed literally thousands of years to figure out that they have this or that right. Some is actually from the Romans or Greeks, the result of hundreds of years of struggle between factions or social groups. (E.g., first between Patricians and a horrible Etruscan king, and then between those of Patrician and Plebeian descent.) And they needed a long time to be figured out, they didn't just spring out already self-evident and inalienable.

    Some weren't evident even to the Romans at any point. E.g., there was no freedom of religion, nor separation between church and state. Indeed a big argument for more power to the patricians was that supposedly the gods will be pissed off if a lowly plebeian conducts the sacred rites that the consuls (think: president and vice president) had to perform. Yes, that's right: the head of state _had_ to conduct certain religious rituals, and that applied to many other top-level jobs in the republic. Which from the start put limits on what religion you should practice to fit that job. And if you were, say, in the army, you had a list of approved gods that you could worship. Want to be a follower of Moses for example? Not in the Roman army.

    Some weren't even clear at the time of drafting the Magna Carta. E.g., it took a _lot_ of religious warfare and millions dead over exactly what flavour of Jesus is the right one, before a bunch of people figured out, basically, "you know, we could all get along better if we stopped trying to shove our personal religion down somebody else's throat." But even that wasn't self-evident to everybody, and to a lot of people it still isn't. Oh, they very much like it when you don't shove your religion down their throats, but they'd very much like to be allowed to shove theirs down your throat. I dare say that even at the time when the founding fathers drafted that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" amendment, most of the colonists would still have found it unthinkable if you told them they can't run you out of town -- or in some cases hang you -- for believing in the wrong flavour of Jesus.

    Trial by your peers? A mere hundred years before the Magna Carta -- and in many places in the world even centuries _after_ it -- the barons would have more likely fought for the sacred, self-evident and inalienable right (and divine too!) to dispense their own arbitrary justice on their own lands. You know, with the baron being judge, jury and executioner. Ok, employer of the executioner.

    So it's all just a contract. And you have exactly as many as you write in that contract. If it's not listed there, you don't have it. If you want more, or new developments create more ways in which you can be shafted, you have to add a bit to the list.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  82. Bearing arms by NewsWatcher · · Score: 1

    If the Bill of Rights is modelled on the US one, then no doubt people will want the right to keep trojans and viruses.
    In regards to what I think should be in an online Bill of Rights, the right to privacy is key.
    There is nothing worse than knowing google, echelon, the Chinese govt and god knows who else has programs trawling through every word you write and ready to cens

    --
    If the pattern goes 9am, 10am, 11am, why isn't noon 12am?
  83. Those 10 are an EXAMPLE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NOT an exhaustive list.

    In describing you, I say you have two legs, two arms, one head, one anus, 8 fingers 2 thumbs, two eyes, one mouth and two ears.

    These are all EXACTLY TRUE.

    This doesn't mean you have no willy. Or that you have no toes or feet.

  84. Re:The right to a independent experts for court ca by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

    So who gets to pay for the 'free' expert? The other side?

  85. Road to hell on steroids by jbdigriz · · Score: 1

    Please, please, please, no more "well-intentioned" broad, sweeping, "reforms" or rights initiatives. Not only do they actually take away the very rights they assert, by putting them directly in the hands of those who would and do abuse them, but this is a band-aid approach to start with. It only futher entrenches the underlying problems.

    You can give the Emperor a shiny new suit of clothes, but we can still smell his crusty drawers.

  86. Anthony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    when under contract by employers you can not be held responsable for actions or refusel to break the law.

    By that i mean if you are ordered on contract to intall illegal software you can not be fired or sued for refusing and if you are forced to its the resonsbility of the person ordering you to and not youself.

  87. the right by KingBenny · · Score: 1

    to vote on every law and not on parties that put their own people in place who vote on laws without you having any say in the matter ?

    --
    Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?
  88. 11.The Right to own as advertised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    11. The Right to own as advertised - I can't count how many times I purchased something only to wait for a patch, upgrade or just abandon the product because it does not work as advertised. Recommended specs my a55, if it does not work out as recommended don't advertise it until it is ready.

  89. A word from The Dark Lord by jandersen · · Score: 1

    Let me be the Devils advocate a bit here.

    First of all I think it is excessively pompous to talk about a "Technology Bill of Rights" - it isn't as if we have been living through an era of extreme oppression after which we have finally reached the Enlightenment. Actually, one could argue that the opposite is the case: that the internet up until now has been a lawless wilderness, where criminals of all sorts thrive and where it is far too easy to get hurt; in short, we need to tame and civilize the internet.

    Article 1. Any individual shall be able to choose anonymity when posting to Internet sites

    I disagree. The need for whistleblowing would be better served by making special arrangements for protecting the identity of people in certain specific circumstances. Granting anonymity "whenever, wherever" is far too wide-reaching; it is not just poor, oppressed, but honest people who wish to hide their faces. There are already ways of protecting the identity of legitimate whistle-blowers; the company I work for have hired an independent company to which employees can direct their criticism and complaints. It actually works - employees feel comfortable with speaking out, and the employer is able to keep themselves informed about the criticisms without knowing who said what, thus avoiding any unproductive ill feelings.

    Article 3. No individual shall be held liable for effects of malware or malicious code unknowingly run on a personal computer

    Why not? It isn't difficult to avoid - apart from the lazy option of using a virus-scanner, simply thinking before clicking on anything sent in your mail should do the trick for the most part. Contrary to common belief, most malware atatcks are not the result of somebody breaking into your computer, they happen because you behave stupidly. You need to educate yourself a bit before operating a computer, just like a car - because if you don't, you will end up hurting other people. Perhaps it should be mandatory to pass an internet test before being allowed out.

    To be quite honest, I suspect in many ways Americans are the least well-equipped to form a meaningful opinion about what freedoms are essential. American media and culture have for many decades been too much of a hot-bed of word-twisting, to the extent that even many basic concepts have an entirely different meaning to an American as compared to non-Americans. And if people all over the world are to agree on anything big and important enough to be called " Bill of Rights", it will have to be thought through and turned over a very large number of times. Just throwing together a list of your personal gripes doesn't quite cut it, I feel.

  90. That's the point by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

    NDAs on security related software scream of "security by obscurity." NDAs on software used for law enforcement or government work means that the citizens do not have the right to inspect their own government (national security issues aside, we should expect such a right).

    Yes, your competitors have the right to see how your software works. You have the right to see how their software works. You might choose to not grant them the right to redistribute your software, which is something that copyrights are strong enough to enforce.

    --
    Palm trees and 8
  91. No Outsourcing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    America is sick of outsourcing and US consumers are going to strike back with a vengeance! India, China, Vietnam, Estonia, Lithuania, etc ... you're all on your own. We will no longer purchase your crappy products and will hang up on you if you attempt to service our products. American companies, heed this warning: Outsource American jobs = you go out of business.

  92. Ban email, allow snail mail by aoheno · · Score: 1

    Eliminates spam, idles mail servers, reduces bandwidth utilization, while providing the opportunity to actually have time off while the snail mail winds its way there and back, making you a top performer.

    --
    Her lips were softer than a duck's bill, but her quacks ...
  93. lefty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. The right to kill uncompiled source code
    2. The right to free on site tech support
    3. The right to free aplus and msce certifications
    4. The right to demand an insatiable amount system resources regardless of my purpose or productivity

    did i miss anything?

  94. More garbage from idiot-moron democrats! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No technology bill of rights is needed! Especially one that locks any organization into only using open source software!

    Impeach b.o.!

    Impeach all democrats, liberals and progressives!

    Remove the czars!

    repeal all of the bills made into law since the election!

    NO national health care!

    No nationalized automotive business or any other business!

    Less government!

    Stop spending!

    Start paying down the deficit!

    Stop whining that, "...it's all bushes fault!" No, it's all b.o and the dems. faults! Just watch the factual news FOX news!

  95. Bill Of Rights by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    Given how much of an authoritarian, centralizer, and advocate of the idea of broad implied government powers Hamilton turned out to be once the Constitution was in force (and, in fact, had already shown himself to be as a member of the Congress under the Articles of Confederation), one might reasonably take his rhetoric about why the Constitution shouldn't explicitly protect individual rights with a grain of salt.

    Alexander Hamilton wasn't the only one to oppose Rights being included in the Constitution though. But he was an advocate of a strong central government as well. A good point is that he opposed slavery.

    Falcon

    1. Re:Bill Of Rights by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Alexander Hamilton wasn't the only one to oppose Rights being included in the Constitution though.

      Yes, but he was the one who was being cited. If someone had cited the vey similar objections raised by Madison before he turned around and actually wrote the Bill of Rights, my response would have been different.

      A good point is that he opposed slavery.

      Like most humans (including the rest of the Founders), there was plenty each of good and bad one could find with him, sure.

  96. The reason for governments by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

    What about future Fair Use rights?

    That is the reason why we have governments. They can change the laws from time to time to account for new circumstances. However I would suggest that any codified rights are broadly stated to avoid the need for frequent updates. For example I would have said that format shifting, provided that only one copy is playing at a time, is one of the fair uses of media and that would cover copying to an iPod/phone etc. as well as a whole host of future devices.

  97. No greed...no motive to spam by helpacoder · · Score: 1

    That is the best way eliminate all the email spam clogging the internet if people weren't so greedy.

    Sadly, that likely won't happen due to apathy and inertia 'by the masses'.

    (Insert Monty Python 'Spam' skit here -- that skit 'predicted' the 'menace' caused by repetative, redundant communication.)