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Red Hat Challenges Swiss Government Over Microsoft Monopoly
An anonymous reader writes "'Linux vendor Red Hat, and 17 other vendors, have protested a Swiss government contract given to Microsoft without any public bidding. The move exposes a wider Microsoft monopoly that European governments accept, despite their lip service for open source, according to commentators. The Red Hat group has asked a Swiss federal court to overturn a three-year contract issued to Microsoft by the Swiss Federal Bureau for Building and Logistics, to provide Windows desktops and applications, with support and maintenance, for 14M Swiss francs (£8M; $15M) each year. The contract, for 'standardized workstations,' was issued with no public bidding process, Red Hat's legal team reports in a blog — because the Swiss agency asserted there was no sufficient alternative to Microsoft products.'"
For making an operating system that no scanners work with!!
Star Wars monopoly usually - regular monopoly some times.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
Switzerland is not part of the EU, where did the sue them? at the Swiss court?
What has a "wider Microsoft monopoly that European governments accept" got todo with the Swiss? they aint part of the EU
For anybody interested how this interacts with all the pro linux movements from the EU recently, well its completely orthogonal Switzerland is not a member of the EU.
Btw i believe the issue here is the lack of bidding process not that the contract went to Microsoft, like if all the contracts for costly wars in the midle east were given to a particular company without offering them up to any of the competition, good thing shit like that doesn't happen...oooh!
IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
Cry me a river, Redhat!
Fscking whiners.
Practices like selecting some unique feature of the MS software that is not duplicated by FOSS software, like the BSOD) or a proprietary protocol or format,and making that a requirement of the contract has been a standard practice of writing contract specs since, well, forever. It allows only one provider to "qualify".
The only cure is shining the cold light of day on the practice and public exposure of the practice.
Kudos Red Hat!
Do you mean windows XP? I've always had more trouble getting my scanners to work with Windows than any other OS.
Actually, the sad part is there is probably truth in the parent.
Somebody in the procurement department either
(a) Has a report from someone in their IT Department that erroneously states that they need won't work with Linux, and therefore has to be excluded from the procurement process.
or
(b) Has a report from someone in their IT Department that correctly states that they need won't work with Linux, and therefore has to be excluded from the procurement process.
Unfortunately, that's not a Microsoft Monopoly, in either case. If its (a) then their IT staff suck, not Microsoft's fault, and not making Microsoft a monopoly. If its (b) then Linux sucks for their needs, which again is not Microsoft's fault and does not make Microsoft a monopoly.
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Just be aware that Switzerland is NOT an EU member, so only Swiss laws does apply.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
The article doesn't mention the reasoning behind the decision to grant MS the contract, other than
"the Swiss agency asserted there was no sufficient alternative to Microsoft products."
In all fairness, this is pretty much true. If they already have a Windows-based infrastructure in place that works well for them, use MS Office, Outloook, etc, for all their needs, it makes sense they'd go directly to MS rather than go through a public bidding process when they want to upgrade.
Even if they had opened this for public bidding, could someone like RH claim that they could provide a solution that'd be 100%-compatible with the existing MS environment at a lower cost? I seriously doubt this would be the case.
I fail at typing thoughts today.... (a) and (b) should both read ...that [erroneously/correctly] states that what they need won't work...
We now return you to your regularly scheduled linux vs microsoft rant :)
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The modern Swiss system is the epitome of capitalism. It has been raised to new hights by the long time finance minister Hans-Rudolf MÃrz who happens to be the President for this year http://www.admin.ch/br/index.html?lang=en
dd
Despite all the memos, it is still not the Year of Linux in the Dumpster.
Does having a witty signature really indicate normality?
Don't sue your potential customers. It's not a good way to improve your public relations.
Like the USA, Switzerland is a federation, much smaller, but beautifully formed. The Kantons (18?) are the main source of power, not the federal government. And Direct Democracy means that the equivalent of Presedential signing is a referendum on legislation AFTER is is passed by the Bundesrat. Actually the referendum is negative, ie it vetos what the pols passed.
This is _why_ Switzerland is not in the EU, last time the pols tried it was thrown out by a 87% majority and that was the second asking so it wont come back for 30 years. Switzerland is in EFTA and has a bilateral treaty with the EU and is implementing the Shengen accord. Less strict frontier controls. If a question is decided at referendum it can normally be asked once again, but if voted down it is rude, and pointless to bring it back so pols cant saw, or piggy back the way they can in the US.
Many parts of Switzerland do use open source, The City of Zurich (Stadt Zürich) uses it extensively, as does Academia. Kanton Zürich provides tax preparation software free for Linux, Mac & M$Win.
Seriously, I've been running Linux as my primary OS for a while now, and my work laptop is joined to Active Directory at work through Likewise Open. Even so, the integration is rudimentary at best, and every piece of software has its own little tweaks and settings. Single sign-on is a PAIN on Linux. Group policies don't exist. Peripheral compatibility is spotty, particularly with scanners. Multi-factor auth is a pain in the ass. Remote desktop (VNC) is really slow compared to RDP which makes VPN-from-home scenario painful.
Those are a few MUST HAVE things that work in Windows out of the box. RedHat should hire a few more engineers and get them cracking on those, before spending a ton of money on lawyers.
I do think that they could have supplied quite a bit on the server side, though. File serving, web serving, document sharing, DB - those things don't need Windows anymore.
Responding to a troll perhaps, but I've never had a scanner that doesn't work with linux. Xsane is pretty solid.
"linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
By your logic, if the goverment only had Ford motorcars then GM cars ain't an alternative since their operation is geared for Ford.
Doesn't fly my friend.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
[snip] Group policies don't exist. [snip some more]
Linux does things differently. Different != inferior.
$ make available
The Swiss like their operating systems like their cheese -- Plenty of holes.
Actually, the sad part is there is probably truth in the parent. Somebody in the procurement department either (a) Has a report from someone in their IT Department that erroneously states that they need won't work with Linux, and therefore has to be excluded from the procurement process. or (b) Has a report from someone in their IT Department that correctly states that they need won't work with Linux, and therefore has to be excluded from the procurement process. Unfortunately, that's not a Microsoft Monopoly, in either case. If its (a) then their IT staff suck, not Microsoft's fault, and not making Microsoft a monopoly. If its (b) then Linux sucks for their needs, which again is not Microsoft's fault and does not make Microsoft a monopoly.
Which is why Switzerland is being sued, not Microsoft. The summary is actually somewhat erroneous here, because this has little to do with Microsoft or its monopoly, they just happen to be the bidder here.
Most government departments have mandatory open bidding processes for procurement of everything from software to roads. If they had, in violation of these rules, given a no-bid contract to Red Hat, Microsoft could've sued the Swiss government on the exact same grounds and forced them to use a competitive bidding process. If the same process occurred in roadbuilding, and they gave a no-bid to Contractor A when Contractor B also wanted a shot to bid, Contractor B can sue. So it's true that Microsoft isn't really in the wrong here, a Swiss government agency is.
That being said, however, as to your "a" and "b" scenarios, it really doesn't matter. The way the bidding process works is that they present a set of requirements as to what the product being procured must do. Anyone who is willing to fill those requirements (either by using what they've already got or developing something new to fill them) may bid. In your "b" scenario, they would have to know not only that "Red Hat's software is currently incapable of doing something we need", but also that "Red Hat is unwilling or unable to develop that functionality." Apparently, that's not the case, since it seems Red Hat certainly does want a stab at it.
To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
Well it is only one department, at least one other department has a different approach. The Swiss Department of Public Instruction, which has the motto "Long Live Free Software" and is responsible for IT policy in Swiss schools, has encouraged Linux boots in the interests of leveling the playing field for students unable to afford new computers with the latest Microsoft software, a policy in place since late 2008.
Please direct me to the documentation for the standard group policy mechanism in Red Hat.
Ding, we have a winner. I tried with Linux. It works, after a fashion, but you get really tired of constantly working around glitches and gotchas.
I tried with a MacBook Pro. Better, but not really seamless, and then suddenly one day it stopped connecting with our Citrix server and it became an untenable solution (I did for a time use VMWare Fusion, with XP and the Windows citrix client, until I got my Dell rebuilt. That mega sucked...)
Until there is a drop in replacement for AD, and exchange with all its messaging glory, this is going to be the case.
Geoff
Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress
Sometimes different is inferior. Group policies is something you can't live without after you have learned to use it properly. Those administrators that haven't tried it cannot even imagine the power of it. I am sure that some open source project to duplicate (oh no, duplication again!) this feature must be in development somehow at this moment.
It's time to realise that Abble's products are the biggest abomination these days. Just say NO to the dumb iAbble way!!
I see you are looking for excuses, not for solutions...
Ezekiel 23:20
Just be aware that Switzerland is NOT an EU member, so only Swiss laws does apply.
Don't be too sure of that; they are part of the Schengen and have various other treaties with the EU.
The word "building" in there makes me wonder whether this department might actually have some kind of legitimate need for CAD software or such, which tends to be under-represented on Linux (and Mac, for that matter).
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
It's bad either way. Even if it is true that they have something that genuinely can only be made to work with Windows as of today (and they genuinely cannot meet said Windows requirement in any way other than having Windows on all desktops), they should still open the bidding process and allow Linux vendors to quote them a price that includes fixing the problem in Linux.
It might still work out cheaper than going with Windows, and if it doesn't, then they can still go with Windows, secure in the knowledge that there has been a fair and open bidding process to justify their decision.
As for the monopoly argument, I don't see a problem with the term. If the Swiss government is automatically granting business to Microsoft without allowing any competitors to bid, then the Swiss government is indeed effectively granting Microsoft a monopoly. The market in question is a fairly small one, and the existence of the monopoly is the fault of the Swiss government rather than of Microsoft, but it appears to exist nonetheless.
There's no use debating how much the agency would save with an MS-alternative. Influential organizations like large corporations, universities, and government agencies will always get substantial discounts on Windows and Office license agreements. MS knows these entities have enormous leverage over their vendors' and customers' software choices. IE-only web sites, VBA applications, and Word forms make alternative software less attractive or even impossible to use.
I work for a large corporation that produces a lot of documents and applications our customers and vendors need to work with. MS worked out the pricing so that any other OS or office suite was a much greater capital expense on the balance sheet. They were even nice enough to provide free professional services to help us develop "solutions" that invariably locked customers and vendors into MS products.
If only Linux used some sort of "Project X" style graphics server which could effortlessly transmit the GUI to a remote location.
For 10 million (or more) dollars, I'm pretty sure Red Hat could make whatever they need to work work. The biggest advantage Linux has is enterprise installations that are large enough to absorb programmer salaries into the budget, and thus can customize the entire installation for a one time cost.
Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite (TM)
Microsoft Works Tirelessly to make sure you have little glitches, by breaking every Open Standards it can get its grubby hands on, if you want examples look no further than the Kerberos extensions which they tried to NDA until MIT's lawyers pointed out that the extension was a derivative of copyright work and the laughable Excel ODF formula screw up.
They dont want to interoperate but will be forced to do so.
When I installed Linux my Canon scanner just worked.
When I installed Windows, it told me I needed to install a driver. What does that mean?
Have you actually TRIED using X Window, even over broadband? I have. There are several drawbacks to it:
1. It is VERY slow, slower than VNC. It runs like a snail compared to RDP.
2. If you get disconnected, for whatever reason, your apps die and you lose data. In year 2009 this is UNACCEPTABLE.
3. Did I mention it is VERY slow?
I would believe that if the cost of support wasn't thrown into the mix. Windows, Linux, and OSX all offer support services for their software. Part of what the summery was stating was the cost of that support. Red Hat offers such a service for a fee which any one doing the research into the bidding process for the OS's should know. This is why Red Hat is and should be upset they are being taken out of the running before they can even start. This is how they make their money off of their OS.
I don't know if there is foul play here because some of the applications and hardware that work under windows don't exist or don't work as well under other operating systems. I still think they should have had an open bidding process and if Red Hat(or other linux distros and OS's) couldn't meet their needs with the price as well as the software then Microsoft would be free to take it. It shouldn't be a problem if it's just a formality, but it wasn't even setup like that, which is why I see Red Hat as being justified in being upset with the bidding process.
As I understand it, glibc is what puts the GNU in GNU/Linux. (It's probably not Bash or Coreutils because those are part of MSYS on Windows.) So to appease Mr. Stallman, we could put glibc on the space formerly known as Park Place.
Exactly. Switzerland states that only MS will do, but how can you truly know what's available without a public bid?
Put identity in the browser.
You said you are running Linux on your laptop, and it doesn't quite work with some other stuff that I am guessing is microsoft specific? ( I am not a business software user at all so therefore I don't follow these things much at all) Then you suggest redhat should work to make it better, etc by throwing some devs at it (which costs them cash obviously) instead of spending cash on lawyers. Fair enough, that makes sense and is logical! So, here is the obvious question, I am wondering if you are then running a paid-for redhat distribution on that work laptop or not, so that you and your company are helping to pay to make linux better so it interoperates better in the work environment, or just running joe's random distro you downloaded for free, or what.
Yup.
Never had that problem. If you are seeing this, try tunneling over SSH and using compression.
Quite right, I absolutely agree it is totally unacceptable. Which is why X developers invented xmove many years ago.
Yes you did. The flag you want is -z9 and you might want to do some tests to find out why your bandwidth or latency clearly sucks so badly.
... so, they're doing what any reasonable company would do?
Adjust their final price, offer incentives, and taylor the product they're delivering in order to win the customer's business.
If the customer got what they wanted, and saved a bundle in the process, and did so legally, beating out what any other competitor offered... how is that a bad thing?
-David
Yeah, Linux on the desktop is really going to make life easier for them.
NX is a fair bit better than RDP/Citrix.
The market in question is a fairly small one, and the existence of the monopoly is the fault of the Swiss government rather than of Microsoft, but it appears to exist nonetheless.
If Switzerland is anything like the US, I'd wager the market you're referring to (federal, state and local contracts) is a lot larger than you think. Maybe someone can cite some real numbers, but I'd guess it outstrips anything in the private sector.
The Swiss like their operating systems like their cheese -- Plenty of holes.
I know you're trying to be funny, but I'll put on my pedantic hat and remind everyone that Switzerland makes lots of cheeses, few of which contain holes.
What you're thinking of is that yellowish waxy product made in Wisconsin or California that vaguely resembles emmenthaler. By contrast, appenzeller and gruyere, for example, are similarly popular, and have no holes.
So much for your holey theory. ;-)
Bullshit. DO your homework. HP printers/scanners all work under Linux. I've not had a need to search for other drivers, but I'm sure there are more.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
All things are corrected by using the proper network. As long as you confine yourself to the University Ethernet wired network you will not have these difficulties.
What? Oh, you aren't living and working at a University? Well, that's part of the problem. Much of this was designed and developed for use in a rather rarified atmosphere and trying to use it outside of that can be a real challenge. Ofen requiring the source code and a compiler. Sometimes debugger as well.
Yes, I have a production Linux server that is critical to my business. But I am familiar with the limitations.
For making an operating system that no scanners work with!!
Thats Why i have Terminal servers with Citrix
I can believe some computer supplier got the contract to use Microsoft software. I would find it very difficult to believe that Microsoft got a contract for workstations (hardware) when that is clearly outside their business.
And I bet they do not have anyone that installs computers in Switzerland. Further, Microsoft partners in Switzerland would probably be rather concerned about being in competition with Microsoft for business.
Could there be any less accuracy in this summary? I didn't read the article, but if it says Microsoft as well, I'd say it is completely wrong. Microsoft doesn't sell computers and they don't install computers or service them either.
Time to dig a little deeper; you'll find the NX protocol. Open, free, at least as fast as RDP and allows for session disconnect and reconnect.
FreeNX:
http://freenx.berlios.de/
and NX's commercial face:
www.nomachine.com
How did you set your output? I had no idea that "Zürich" contained an ampersand and an octothorpe.
not like clocks?
Why oh why would you even want to. Run your app locally transfer your file.
RDP is a tiresome solution to make you feel as if you are productive while wasting time. Yes I've used it and it's not as great as you make it sound. Depending on the version you're on you can lock yourself out if you don't log off your sessions.
On X, I would run the app remotely and display on my system if I really had to. Only had to do it once due to licensing issues. Wasn't slow just PITA like RDP.
DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
A balance sheet entry is not an expense.
DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
The UK and Ireland, both EU members, are not part of the Schengen agreement.
Oh yea it is so horrible that I run 200+ desktop sessions on a single server ... appears to be a person at the keyboard issue.
Got Code?
Just be aware that Switzerland is NOT an EU member
But we did democratically vote and sign several bilateral treaties.
RedHat challenges to see if they could use the implications of some of those treaties and ask for a public bid.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
In fact I can go further and inform you that Swiss law is the only real issue here.
Switzerland did not enter into the EEA-agreement and only has bilateral agreements with the EU on trade etc.
All EU related law is processed by the EFTA Court (not the EU equivalent).
The Schengen agreement only relates to travel.
See more at http://www.efta.int/
you can use rdp from linux you don't need to use vnc
http://mobassh.mobatek.net/en/
is a free version of ssh server to run on windows sshfs will allow you to mount your windows drives on your local linux system.
maybe these tools could make your life a little easier.
hope they help
Blarney Quality Restaurant, Plants
redhat or Red Hat?
That's true, in my example it was a capital expenditure and probably showed up on a Cash Flow Statement as an Investment in Equipment.
;)
Thanks for bumming me out with accounting details, I felt so good about myself after a nice MS rant
I hate to agree with you, but you are correct. Now explain to me why this is the case. In 1996 I was running X-windows over ISDN and while it was slower than my 10Mb lan connection, it was, in fact, usable. I have tried using X-windows over ADSL (it was unusable), cable (yep unusable), 3G (absolutely unusable). Why is this. I have only ever been able to make X-windows work over private networks.
Like you, I don't really have any problems with X (I've been using it for a very long time) and think it even has some advantages over RDP (for example, RDP requires you set a desktop resolution, then fit your session into that window. X, on the other hand, could care less and lets you just fit the application windows into your existing display.)
However, what I quoted above is an example of one of the reasons Windows continues to do so well, even when the competition is literally giving their product away for free. Say what you want about Microsoft, but (unless something breaks) their integrated solutions are FAR more user friendly than typical FOSS alternatives. The typical user neither knows, cares, nor WANTS to know or care about something like xmove--they just want the connect to the remote machine, not set up proxies so they can connect to the remote machine without worrying about losing their work.
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
I think it's a foregone conclusion that support is included in the MS offering. Based on the terms presented in the story, it looks like an Enterprise Agreement, and these typically involve some level of support (not "we'll be your helpdesk" support, but rather somewhere for your IT people to turn... to be fair, this is what RedHat would probably offer, too.)
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
Not to mention my example - my scanner is an all in one scanner/printer/card reader - I generally just scan direct to the SD card in the scanner and then read the contents of the card to the machine, as you would with any USB storage device.
That's not to say it doesn't work - I haven't actually ever tried scanning direct to the connected machine (Windows or Linux). It's a completely platform/driver/application independent solution!
- Chuq
Red Hat isn't arguing that Switzerland must put any specific set of requirements on the bidding process, only that there must actually be a bidding process with openly stated requirements. If "make it work with Active Directory" is one of the requirements, then it's up to Red Hat to include that in their bid. With contracts in the range of $10m+, there is plenty that Red Hat could custom-produce if it were needed to meet the bid's requirements.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Even so, from Switzerland's perspective that's an even better reason to squeeze Microsoft by having an open bidding process that drives the price down. Why pay them $15m when you could force them to discount?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Two things for you:
1. Try RDP first. I have successfully logged in and worked with a machine halfway across the globe connected with a 36.6kbps modem with RDP. Try that with X.
2. Compression does not help a chatty protocol to become any less chatty and does not remove latency, which ruins everything for chatty protocols. There's a reason why people use VNC on Linux.
And BTW, xmove hasn't been updated since 1997. 12 years. Which means no one is using it.
He's been promising an operating system, GNU Hurd, for a long time.
He's been promising an operating system called GNU, and Hurd is the name of its kernel. Since it's the canonical (but not the Canonical :D) version of GNU, it needn't be called GNU/Hurd.
Also, RMS suggests that you use a slash in "GNU/Linux" such that "GNU" isn't understood as an adjective. If the FSF made their own distro, it might be reasonable to call it "GNU Linux" to distinguish it from other distros (and since GNU is already in the name, calling it "GNU GNU/Linux" probably isn't necessary). Just like it's appropriate to refer to "GNU Emacs" to distinguish it from other Emacsen such as XEmacs.
Tried that, too. It's only slightly better than VNC, and you see JPEG compression artifacts on your display. Well, in fact it's a modification of VNC, so it can't be dramatically better.
And I haven't paid a cent for Linux in a long time. Quality will have to improve quite a bit before I consider spending cash on it.
...Remote desktop (VNC) is really slow compared to RDP which makes VPN-from-home scenario painful.
I think what you need for the Linux equivalent of RDP is NX, not VNC.
it is never a good idea to sue your own customers.
The troll with karma.
"Work with Active Directory" is a vague notion in Linux. Technically, you can install Likewise Open and join your Linux machine to a domain within 15 minutes. But then you lose the ability to add your AD-authenticated user to local groups (!). You actually have to edit obscure text files by hand to do that, the usual tools simply do nothing. Editing those files incorrectly can lock you out of your machine. All other pieces of software are NOT GUARANTEED to pick up the config. Want to open an OpenOffice doc from a network share? Tough luck. Want Apache to transparently pick up kerberos? Who told you that should work? Want your Java app open files on a remote machine or otherwise use Kerberos? Tough luck again - you'll have to configure it all over, and over, and over again.
WTF is this? Kindergarten?
Not Swiss!
It is a more flexible language spoken here.
Money law applies, actually.
Some 15 months ago Bill came In Athens - Greece, gave a lecture on innovation [Microsoft's vision on the future of technology] as he put it.
At the same time and roughly through the same procedure ( no public bidding process) a 70,000 win OS + office licenses agreement was signed, between Microsoft and the Greek Minster of Economy at that time, Mr Alogoskoufis.
The motivating benefit has been 50 Visual Studio licenses for as long the contract lasts, plus an innovation portal. In other words 667.49 x 50 = 33,374,5 euros and a portal for 9 to 36 million job, since unit prices remained unclear, pending a additional agreement.
Could you deal better?
http://hellug.gr/ reacted (among many others notably), but not effectively.
Full coverage (in Greek): http://www.ffii.gr/ms-gov-agreement
The agreement (in English): http://sandbox.cs.uchicago.edu/blog_el/files/SPA.en.pdf
a few points I think should be made:
fedora core gives as much support that microsoft includes in the price of each license it sells - the typical software update kind of support.
if they wanted to use linux, they could the same kind of license and support, and got it for free.
assuming the swiss are aware of redhat linux (or fedora), then as soon as the swiss decided to go with windows instead of linux, that is when redhat should have realized that there is no room for them in the swiss government's IT plans.
if they wanted to use windows instead of linux, then there is obviously no point in asking redhat to provide pay-for-play support for an operating system they don't sell. with redhat not offering any help desk support for windows, there is no need to have a formal bidding process.
they could have got help desk support elsewhere. maybe from a local company or whatever. but redhat shouldn't be complaining that it didn't have an opportunity. redhat doesn't provide help desk support for windows.
im thinking redhat believes that the swiss government isn't aware of a free alternative. as i've stated in my argument it is absurd of them to be complaining at this point in the descision making process. it is absurd as long as the swiss gave redhat careful consideration already. price can't always be the determining factor when people make descisions like that.
i think the conclusion is that they want to use windows instead of linux, despite it being expensive.
This March deposition in Novell v. Microsoft is an insult to the court, the Law, and any intelligent reader. It's time they threw the book at this liar and thief.
you had me at #!
Hey I'm the last guy to be touting Microsoft and I run Linux at home whenever I can, but face it Linux whiny crybabies.. Linux lost because it's very rough around the edges and it's a scary thing going into a piece of technology on a large scale when you are not 100% guaranteed it will work. When will you people understand that Microsoft continues to win again and again because as bad as it is, it supports all devices everywhere without question and with very little configuration and effort.
Linux must find a way to overcome this if they ever wish to become a major player. All I see are people saying 'we should have had a chance'. Well come to grips with the fact that life doesn't work that way! You need to prove you deserve a chance first!
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
I tried with Linux. It works, after a fashion, but you get really tired of constantly working around glitches and gotchas.
Thank you! Someone understands!
I want an OS that just works. For me, Windows just works. There has not been a time when I've use a Linux machine and not had some glitch or workaround to overcome.
-z9, how user-friendly!
Why is this. I have only ever been able to make X-windows work over private networks.
Not sure this is indicative, but I remember the old Vaxstation X-windows systems I used long ago tended to use UDP a bit too freely, and could have benefited by the use of TCP session connect protocol. I remember having looked into the protocols used in contrast to the Xerox 3150 (I think it was) large laser printer I was trying to integrate at the time. If I remember correctly (and there's no guarantee of that) the Xerox interpretation of certain standard protocols was not always the common interpretation. That is, they seemed to conform to the written standard but not to anyone else (there were many problems networking Xerox printers than other third parties during the NT 3.51-4.0 era, for example).
I read the Red Book series of X.500 documents once, sometime later (a directory spec, not directly related to X-windows and only mentioned here for illustration) and developed the opinion that the networked world relied more surely on conventions than standards, because a lot of published standards seemed to be more philosophy than actual format definitions.
Things may have changed, but I'm still in a fairly continuous, mild state of astonishment that we can plug things together at all and have them work.
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
Besides going for software alternatives like Linux, aren't there other vendors reselling MS software with support? The most expensive part in software should be the support after all. The integration of it all into working desktop systems, that do what the users need it to do, and the maintenance of both the software and the hardware. It is not that hardware is immortal. Stuff breaks now and then.
In inviting other vendors (HP, Dell?) to bid for the contract maybe they can get even better integration: use mostly MS software but also some from other vendors to complete the package, have the same supplier take care of the hardware, thus making sure it all works fine with the underlying hardware and knowing who you have to blame if it doesn't.
Or how about Apple? There is afaik still a MS Office version available for OS-X. Actually most commercial software is available for OS-X. It could be a very good alternative for Windows boxes. And I'm sure Apple or a reseller can provide excellent software/hardware integration.
Somebody in the procurement department either
(a) Has a report from someone in their IT Department that erroneously states that they need won't work with Linux, and therefore has to be excluded from the procurement process.
or
(b) Has a report from someone in their IT Department that correctly states that they need won't work with Linux,
Regardless, they are required to put it out for tender. Even if they think only one company is capable of supplying a service, it has to go thruogh an open specification and bidding process. Deciding on the vendor for a multi-millon dollar contract on the basis of a memo from some IT guy is not good government. It creates a huge incentive for corruption.
Well depends. There are companies who make a living out of suing potential customers. No bidding process, perceived unfairness in the bidding process. Often all what they hope for is a settlement - extra cash without providing any good or services. You see - there case might be hopeless - but the project cant proceed until the court decides. So it might cheaper to just pay them.
For making an operating system that no scanners work with!!
This will be fixed in Fedora 11, right? I'm hoping.
Boycott Swiss Cheese!
Horray for Freedom Cheese!
The Admin and the Engineer
Try using X over GPRS-connection. Lost my internet for a while (adsl-modem died), and had to run a program through X from my school's comps (testing course required us to test part of FF for bugs which was neat). Hadn't finished loading up or creating the first outputs over the night...
-Deepone
It's unresponsive to moves.
Each expose/move fires packets down the network and this is quite bursty. Small packets, stormed.
The response times is high, but the bandwidth needs are low (it used to work on 3Mb/s links with a corporate LAN and 100 users, for crying out loud).
An ATM network would have solved it, but they are dying out to ethernet.
You can contact the Federal Office for Buildings and Logistics (FBL) by e-mail or phone using the informations from this page: http://www.efd.admin.ch/kontakt/00561/index.html?lang=en
I have an older HP all in one scanner that doesn't even work with vista, yet the latest ubuntu picks it up out of the box... It did with with xp, but you had to install hp's rather bloated drivers.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
Unfortunately, that's not a Microsoft Monopoly, in either case. If its (a) then their IT staff suck, not Microsoft's fault, and not making Microsoft a monopoly. If its (b) then Linux sucks for their needs, which again is not Microsoft's fault and does not make Microsoft a monopoly.
Exactly. Or:
c) Their IT staff is really good at supporting Windows but doesn't know, nor care to learn how to support Linux. So they can replace all their IT staff or they can go with Windows.
There is still a lot of software out there that doesn't support Linux at least on the client side. For example: SAP, AutoCAD, MS Office (sucks but still the best office suite IMHO) are all Windows client only systems. Sometimes not bidding isn't picking on the vendor you don't go with, sometimes it is "I know what I need, and I know only one vendor supplies it".
P.S. I'm a UNIX/Linux admin not a MS fanboy. I just would rather see a well supported system that meets the users' needs, than have somebody go with a platform they can't support just because it is cheaper and the developers' say it can do what they need.
Red Hat's legal team reports in a blog - because the Swiss agency asserted there was no sufficient alternative to Microsoft products.'"
The Swiss agency is correct, when they looked in the Microsoft web site they could not find a single software product that was certified to work on any Linux distribution although to be fair the people that did the searching would have found Microsoft products that were certified for the Mac but we all know that Mac's are more expensive, after all Microsoft told us so. Of course the agency didn't mention that the persons doing the looking owned Labrador seeing eye dogs and wore blackened glasses. :)
There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
But ... 95% of staff only use their PC for word processing, email, some spreadsheets, and perhaps database retrieval. All of which can be done happily on non-Microsoft systems (at much reduced prices ...) The few percent that really do require M$ machines because the software they use has not yet been ported to other OS's can easily be supported as special cases.
... (in fact, many people don't realise that they are no longer running Windows when Ubuntu was installed over the weekend!
The staff's excuses that they need M$ can generally be shot down in flames
http://xkcd.com/424/
Er, no. In a normal situation, you don't discount the product to the point that you're making a loss. But that doesn't apply when you're not simply after the customer's business, but are trying to enlist the customer as an agent to drive other business in your direction.
It's much more of a problem if the customer is the state, as people who don't want to deal with IE-only websites and MS-specific document formats don't have the option of taking their business elsewhere.
Very true, I was able to play 'clueless non-technical user' when I bought my HP All-in-One thing:
* I plugged the USB cable of my HP into my laptop (my laptop runs Mandriva Linux but me being non-technical user I neither know or care)
* It popped up a dialog asking if I wanted to install the software to make the thing work, I said Ok
* It did 'some stuff' then popped up another dialog suggesting I install some more software (XSane etc. but again I didn't 'know' that)
* It worked
Pre-canned Evolution Links for all those Slashdot holy wars.
Notice, he said that the the scanner worked under Linux and not under XP. So I fail to see the need for "Bullshit. DO your homework."
Whilst you might argue that it is more complex to change software you are really going to struggle to defend the no bid part of service and support. Clearly when service and support contracts, often full of holes for extra charges are handed out with no public review or bidding process, some soft corruption is occurring in the tendering process.
You know the stuff, exclusive meetings between the sales team and public officials, often off site at select restaurants, many free samples of software sometimes with hardware, job shuffles from public to private and back again. This stuff really goes beyond incompetence in the purchasing team or even a total lackadaisical attitude towards IT infrastructure development within an agency, it really shows an intent to circumvent the system. So in this case is M$ likely to be dirty, most probably and obviously the cosy relationship needs to be broken up, not so much by personalizing M$ but definitely where public servants have broken the rules on multi million dollar contracts with unspecified additional costs over three years, dismissal should be considered and even criminal charges subject to a full investigation.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
When I was in Switzerland (Year 2000) I went into a cheese shop and bought genuine Swiss cheese which came with lots of holes.
I wasn't in a tourist area either. They were selling plenty of holey cheeses in the store.
Actually, I had a HP Scanner that wouldn't (ScanJet 3670) work, traded it for an Epson that did. I have setup about 20 customers with Ubuntu though and all of their scanners worked right out of the box.
> Switzerland states that only MS will do, but how can you
> truly know what's available without a public bid?
By having very vocal worker bees, who want their MS & Office. And the fact, that nobody so far got fired for buying Microsoft, even if they got pulled over the table in the process.
If the customer got what they wanted, and saved a bundle in the process, and did so legally, beating out what any other competitor offered... how is that a bad thing?
Assuming (which isn't necessarily the case based on current and previous legal proceedings) it was legal, can you say with a straight face that totally locking yourself into one vendor and relying on their future benevolence (now they've got you 'trapped') is really a good idea?
At the very least, if they think you've got no alternative, you should surely calculate on all those juicy MS discounts disappearing when the current deal expires, since you will have no real bargaining power.
Thing is in this case, it may well be illegal but the culprit is the Swiss govt., not MS.
Do Not Pass Go. Do Not Collect 15 million dollars.
Just because you are wrong and I called you out on it doesn't mean I am a Troll.
melted
Color me "slightly confused".
Why aren't you using RDP, then? Even my Linpus netbook supports it (from acer).
What "group policy" would be useful to you on Linux?
What scanner? I'm not sure "spotty" is a reasonable description. My workflow involves scanners on "all-in-one" units. They seem to work -- for bigger scanning projects, there is usually a dedicated machine machine.
Now, color my "concerned".
Can you clarify your issues with single sign-on and multi-factor authentication?
Not that I care about Linux (or, for that matter Windows(tm)). Generally, use whatever floats your boat. But the sign-on/authentication issues are of concern.
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
There's always NX NoMachine. I've used it before and it does a bang up job.
http://www.nomachine.com/
As someone who has worked in both an obscenely huge monolithic government entity, and an obscenely huge private entity, I'd say private is larger on the whole, but government entities are certainly far from small.
The other boon for Red Hat is breaking into a new market. They are well respected in the private sector, but largely ignored in the public, and that is a lot of potential new customers.
Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
We, for one, *did* try that. NX-compressed X11 over GPRS over WiFi over one more wired network. The remote KDE3 desktop was surprisingly usable.
Ezekiel 23:20
http://www.sane-project.org/lists/sane-mfgs-cvs.html#Z-HEWLETT-PACKARD
really ?
note, i'm a linux user myself, and i have looked at sane devices list quite a lot when trying to determine which scanner to purchase several times before.
Rich
By having competent IT staff, which is obvious they don't because they recommended Microsoft carte blanche.
~~
P.S.: The PC in a keyboard thing has been done, and redone, and re-re-done, more times than you can shake a stick at.
Not only can SAP can be run using Citrix with Linux clients, there is also a native SAP R/3 client for Linux.
Please discontinue disseminating disinformation.
(/artistic license)
We are not member of the EU. There are treaties but they do not force Swiss authorities to do a public bidding. In Switzerland, such regulations are often depending on the county ("Kanton"), which makes it very local. However, the decision to go unchallenged with Microsoft raised a few eyebrows. In a country with a direct democracy, this is not a good thing for the government. Media coverage was not huge but for such a technical issue surprisingly good.
I am confident that this will not happen again.
I highly recommend VueScan - he really knows how these scanners work and how to get the best images out of them.
So, one of those Cheese Council creeps got to you too, huh?
looking at the list of your points, ad integration is a tricky one (point, not the implementation). you don't see people requesting microsoft to develop ad agents for linux, do you ?
others i could partially (partially because hurdles and blame distribution varies for those issues) agree to... except these two.
[quote]Group policies don't exist.[/quote]
what ? next you should complain that you can't script ms machines with ssh. "grou policies" is a specific ms implementation detail, and it can't and won't work on linux. there are other tools like puppet, cfengine and such that provide mass management (and you also have the power of simple scripting right there).
[quote]Remote desktop (VNC) is really slow compared to RDP[/quote]
no offence, but who even uses that ? try nx. _that's_ the speed. gui applications are usable over gprs link (plain gprs, no edge, very spotty connection). eat that, rdp (i think that's the ms version, right ?)
Rich
1. i have used plain x over dsl lines. it isn't extremely snappy, but it isn't slow - it's just usable. :)
2. i completely agree... so that's why nobody uses plain x anymore.
as i already mentioned, you should try nx. not only it is extremely fast, it also saves interrupted sessions. note, with the freenx version i use, sometimes it puts running session in failed state when connection breaks - when it should actually be suspended. it can be fixed by moving & editing a single file, but i consider that a bug and hope it is already fixed in latest versions
Rich
Switzerland states that only MS will do, but how can you truly know what's available without a public bid?
Indeed. But all too often, you can't even know it then. It's common practice in every government agency everywhere to "fix" a purchase or hire process in a simply way. You get together with the bidder/applicant that you want to win, and make up a set of "requirements" that are carefully tailored to have at least one item which you know each potential vendor/applicant will fail. You might include reasonable-sounding explanations for why each requirement item really, really needed. Then you publish your bidding process with the extensive list of "requirements", and whaddaya know, there's only one bidder that satisfies all of them.
It sounds like the people who run this agency couldn't even be bothered to go through such a simple bogus-bidding process, and just hired Microsoft without inviting anyone else. We have a simple name for that sort of process: corruption. The fix was in, Microsoft got the contract, the managers got their kickbacks, and everyone was happy. Except those spoilsports at Red Hat.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
"The Swiss like their operating systems like their cheese -- Plenty of holes." - by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 25, @05:12PM (#28087709)
Then, why didn't they choose Linux? It too, has had its share of "holes", such as this list below:
-----
Root Password Readable in Clear Text with Ubuntu:
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/13/0525254
-----
Is This The Biggest Linux Security Breach? REDHAT SERVERS HACKED:
http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&id=827351
-----
UBUNTU SERVERS HACKED:
http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/08/15/1341224.shtml
-----
SuSE Linux LPROLD BUFFER OVERFLOW:
http://www.novell.com/linux/security/advisories/2003_014_lprold.html
-----
Weakness In Linux Kernel's Binary Format:
http://it.slashdot.org/it/06/10/03/2122220.shtml
-----
Ubuntu May Be Killing Your Laptop's Hard Drive:
http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/30/1742258
-----
KDE Heap Overflow Vulnerability Found:
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/21/0936249
-----
Critical Security Hole in Linux Wi-Fi:
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/04/15/1515259
-----
Bitten By the Red Hat Perl Bug:
http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/08/29/1423201
-----
Debian Bug Leaves Private SSL SSH Keys Guessable:
http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/05/13/1533212.shtml
-----
Ext4 Data Losses on Linux:
http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/03/19/1730247
-----
Longstanding Linux IO Wait Bug:
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/15/049201
-----
Intel Cache Poisoning Is Dangerously Easy On Linux:
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/22/1815226
-----
Major Security Hole In Samsung Linux Drivers:
http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/07/18/0319203.shtml
-----
Want more? I'll produce them, upon request... (especially ones that are indicative of USER LEVEL app problems, or those in hardwares)
AND, sure - Some of those from my lists above MAY be fixed by now (hopefully @ least), but THAT is NOT THE POINT - THIS IS:
Linux, BSD, MacOS X (all *NIX, in general/in other words) have/have had THEIR problems too...
So, please - don't try to make it sound as if only Microsoft's Windows NT-based OS family has them, because they ALL do & it also largely depends on the skills, determination, & efforts of those ADMINNING those OS & their networks as well, period...!
(What you have to hope for, is fast patching!)
APK
P.S.=> The "Pro-Linux" penguin crowd here NEVER FAILS TO AMAZE, with their "straight out of PRAVDA" propoganda (telling 1/2 the story to make Microsoft look poorly, but "StRaNgELy" always omitting THEIR OS' own downsides & such over time)...
Now, of course, the owners of /. here know 1 thing, &
Just like it's appropriate to refer to "GNU Emacs" to distinguish it from other Emacsen such as XEmacs.
Actually, it isn't. XEmacs has just as much claim to the name "GNU Emacs". Similarly, it makes more sense to use the name GNU XEmacs than GNU/Linux because you cannot take the GNU out of XEmacs.
FSF/GNU has hindered the development of Linux more than it has helped. It's basically a rewrite of a bunch of command line utilities that few people really care about now. The two critical portions (the C compiler and the C library) have a checkered past. At one time, the "standard" GNU GCC could not compile the Linux kernel correctly. So, it was forked and eventually the fork (EGCS) replaced the GNU version. The same thing occurred with the C library except that it was the fork that was retired once glibc became stable.
The vast majority of code that people see and use (X11 and KDE/GNOME/etc.) are not GNU.
I am a linux guy, but this suit has convinced me to switch back to Windows.
What's next...am I going to get sued because I choose a Mercedes and did not look at any other cars?
People have the right to choose what they want. If their choice is Microsoft, then so be it.
As for Microsoft being full of holes...Linux has plenty of holes of its own.
Grow up boys and girls.
Let's hope that they do not require on the bid that the operating system should have a "working sound system" or Red Hat will immediately be disqualified for Pulse Audio.
It will be interesting to see how the judge evaluates Red Hat's CEO statement on the Linux Desktop: "The desktop has become a lot like teenage sex: a lot of people are talking about it but not many people are doing it":
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2005/10/27/redhat_customer_control/
My bad, at my work we are a Mac/Linux shop. We let people get a PC "if required" for something they use. Our purchasing has Windows to run SAP (which is controlled by the organization headquarters. I searched for what the system requirements were and got http://help.sap.com/saphelp_ep60sp0/helpdata/en/01/5be93bb3596754e10000000a11402f/content.htm , looks like windows only. But I think that is just for the client Portal part, my bad. Anyways, good to hear there is *nix versions out there.
Actually it is a monopoly. It doesn't matter what Microsoft's intent is, it is possible to be an innocent monopolist, but monopolies are (on the whole) bad for all including the monopolist. Liberal economies require governments to either intervene to correct and remove them, or if it is an unavoidable 'natural' monopoly, to regulate them in the place of free markets doing so.
... we were forced by cantonal politics to replace our (perfectly working) Postfix + Courier installation with a (very buggy) Microsoft Exchange solution ...
I wonder what the reasons were. If you asked, please let us know what answers you got.
This intrigues me because I happen to have done just the opposite afew years ago, also in Zh. However, it was in a small business (15-20 people), not in an administration. I replaced an Exchange server and NT4 PDC with a Debian/Samba/Postfix/Courier IMAP server, and it has worked nicely since. The trouble calls I occasionally get are from Outlook 2003 users. A third of the users use Thunderbird, and they never call me.
The only advantage I can see with Exchange/Outlook is the shared address book. But I figure that in many situations, this is not worth the additional cost and trouble. Still, a good shared address book standard would be really nice to have.
NZZ Online (German) rough translation: The Federal Administration Court ordered the contract to be stopped, any critical services for the administration itself excluded. The reason was because there was no proper call for tenders.
"wait.. " - by IRWolfie- (1148617) on Thursday May 28, @06:47PM (#28131535)
See my subject-line above, & read on please...
-----
"Most of these appear to be in the region of 2 years old." - by IRWolfie- (1148617) on Thursday May 28, @06:47PM (#28131535)
MOST are from mid to late 2007, 2008, & 2009 (11 of 14 total I put up mind you AND I CAN PUT UP MORE as well & noted that also in my post you are replying to)... still, do read on!
Yes, some are older, circa 2003-2006... & I freely admit that!
HOWEVER - my point was to show that Linux has had its share of "holes" also - and, what about THESE?
-----
Longstanding Linux IO Wait Bug:
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/15/049201
-----
Intel Cache Poisoning Is Dangerously Easy On Linux:
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/22/1815226
-----
Ext4 Data Losses on Linux:
http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/03/19/1730247
-----
Is This The Biggest Linux Security Breach? REDHAT SERVERS HACKED:
http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&id=827351
-----
Bitten By the Red Hat Perl Bug:
http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/08/29/1423201
-----
Debian Bug Leaves Private SSL SSH Keys Guessable:
http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/05/13/1533212.shtml
-----
Major Security Hole In Samsung Linux Drivers:
http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/07/18/0319203.shtml
-----
UBUNTU SERVERS HACKED:
http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/08/15/1341224.shtml
-----
Ubuntu May Be Killing Your Laptop's Hard Drive:
http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/30/1742258
-----
Critical Security Hole in Linux Wi-Fi:
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/04/15/1515259
-----
QUITE ODD, because of the total 14 I posted? 3 are from THIS YEAR 2009, 3 are from 2008, & 5 are from mid-to-late 2007... which makes them, fairly recent, mind you (that's 11 of 14 total I put up, AND I CAN PUT UP MORE IF YOU WISH!)
----
"Many of them aren't security holes either but problems in general" - by IRWolfie- (1148617) on Thursday May 28, @06:47PM (#28131535)
Beg to differ, many are (6-7 of them in the OS itself, or drivers layer)...
I.E.-> Many ARE related to the kernel itself, or kernel level apps such as drivers (which usually are RING 0/RPL 0 level of operation programs in MOST OS' (as well as its usermode things that ARE part of the OS as a whole, such as KDE (which I actually LIKE, mind you)))...
S0, please - understand this 1 thing:
I know that you're trying to "lessen the blow" of the list of facts I present above, but it doesn't make them "go away" - most of Windows' own known issues are patched as well & exist in the past (but, then again, I never said "Windows is bug free, & ALL *NIX's are full of holes" either then, did I?)
AND, many of Windows' "holes"? Are holes in its apps, such as IE (notorious for it), & Ms-Office apps... that knife? Cuts BOTH ways...
-----
"or not even problems related to the OS." - by IRWolfie-