Slashdot Mirror
Dot-Communism Is Already Here
thanosk sends in a story at Wired Magazine about how online culture is, in many ways, trending toward communal behavior. Sharing and collaboration have become staples of active participation on the Internet, while not necessarily incorporating a particular ideology or involving a government.
"Most people in the West, including myself, were indoctrinated with the notion that extending the power of individuals necessarily diminishes the power of the state, and vice versa. In practice, though, most polities socialize some resources and individualize others. Most free-market economies have socialized education, and even extremely socialized societies allow some private property.
Rather than viewing technological socialism as one side of a zero-sum trade-off between free-market individualism and centralized authority, it can be seen as a cultural OS that elevates both the individual and the group at once. The largely unarticulated but intuitively understood goal of communitarian technology is this: to maximize both individual autonomy and the power of people working together. Thus, digital socialism can be viewed as a third way that renders irrelevant the old debates."
I'm not quite sure where the author got that idea. The US has always been based on the idea that the individual is paramount. In our popular culture, we have always derived our strength from the individual and his willingness to help others.
A perfect example of this is our super-heros. Developed during a time of great uncertainty and world wars, our culture developed personas who were both empowered and selfless. Whether it be an accident of birth (Superman), a millionare who puts his own life and fortune on the line (Batman), or a scientist dealt a bum hand by fate (Hulk), they all are shown to make the most of their unique abilities in service to others.
Such thought processes have traditionally permeated our culture to the point where every child strives to be that hero. To save the world as it were. The results can be seen in everything from local government (simply amazing small towns built out of nothing) to the larger scale of US resolve during WWII and the later Space Race. Thus the communal aspects of working together have always been a strength for us.
The idea of a Big Brother culture is a relatively new one imported from more socialist countries. As if the population needs protection from itself. And for all intents and purposes, it's been causing more harm than good. The government has frustrated more airline passengers than they've prevented terrorists, all while trying to convince the populace to roll over when someone takes over a plane. (THAT is never going to happen again.) They've seized money from countless honest businesses and individuals in an attempt to stop drug trafficing. (Which has been more or less ineffective.) And they've generally created a situation where the populace is either looking for their next handout (excuse me, "bailout") or their trying to cheat their way out of paying their taxes.
Our system hasn't completely fallen yet, but I think the communal internet is a great wake up call for the system. It allows individuals to aspire, self-organize, and express their individuality in a helpful way. So in that respect, I agree with the article. I just don't think it's anything new or anything to do with Communism as a system. ;-)
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Adding an -ism to the end of a word completely changes the concept. Doing something communally and sharing is not the same as being forced to share by the government.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
Socialism is state control. What we have on the web is anarchy. Fun, friendly anarchy.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
The summary seems to ignore that socialism and communism are actually two different things.
Change the world. Let other people put labels. You'll be called a liberal, a communist, a nazi, a heathen, a bigot anyway...
Open Source (I think that is what it's about) is not communism, it is open source. Putting labels or trying to over-simplify things hinders correct thinking.
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
"Most people in the West, including myself, were indoctrinated with the notion that extending the power of individuals necessarily diminishes the power of the state, and vice versa"
What? Western culture has been about empowering the individual, about heroes. Conversely, communist nations such as Russia and China are less about individuals, and more about "the good of many outweighs the good of the few".
Additionally, the "free" software you see isn't an affront to free market principles, in fact it is an application of "when a product has an infinitely increasing returns to scale, cost tends towards distribution costs", and since distribution costs are free, well, hello open source.
Open source is very much a product of western, capitalist countries that PROMOTE the power of the individual.
Open Your Mind. Open Your Source.
Did anyone else get a flash of Alan Sokal's genius upon reading the quote from the summary? So many words, so little content.
How about torrents?
Torrents are after all based on share to get. If you upload you get to download.
Communism at it's best.
Say NO to unpaid Internships!
The "power of working together" comes from shared individual resources and individual insights. There is no collective consciousness, no collective ideas. Voluntary collaboration is capitalistic and leads to progress. Communism/socialism, on the other hand, demands forced collaboration.
1. "...To each according to his needs." ignores luxury items, which no one needs, but people want. The existence of them makes people happy, and encourages work.
2. It discourages individuals from working hard, as you gain nothing by doing so. Only those with a huge altruistic streak, or similar need for approval have incentive to work.
3. "From each according to his capability". One of the major problems people have always had is to determine who is actually capable, as opposed to simply satisfactory. Capitalism, by offering HUGE incentives, tends to accurately discover who has capacity beyond minimal, while communism does not, resuolting in mediocre people being thought capable, thereby giving them authority.
When you look at the web as opposed to meat-world, certain realities appear.
First, everything on the web is at heart a luxury item. So what is going on is not "to each according to his needs", but instead "To each according to his desires."
Second, The work at heart is realtively easier and ENJOYABLE to some. Anyone that has spent an hour digging a hole and an hour writing code will tell you that. So you don't need to actually encourage people to work hard.
Third, capability on the web is easier to detect. More of it is one-person projects, and those are often signed. Software can be measured for speed, GUI can be easily be examined for ease of use.
Fourthly, most of what is offered on the web is relatively low value, not high value. Honestly, we use socialism a lot in the Meat world - for low value things. People don't pay money for a better subway seat. We use socialism to assign movie theater seats - people in wheel chairs get the wheel chair seats for free, they are not forced to pay more for them - even if they are in prime spots.
The web is not the meat-world. What works in one place will not work in the other.
That said, I find that capitalism still tends to triump over socialism even in the web for most areas where money, the requirement for capitalism, exists. No socialist effort is going to make a web site that beats Google, Apple's itune Store, or Amazon.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
I wonder how North Korean Slashdot readers would respond to that.
Oh, wait..
The concept of owning resources in common isn't anti-individualistic
There's nothing wrong with owning a resource in common - for example people in certain states resort to owning "shares" of a cow in order to legally get raw milk (you know, the stuff your grandparents drank without worry). But that's not the same thing as being *forced* to give up your property to a communal share. That is anti-individual and anti-man.
having neighborhood parks or sharing roads and pipes and cables is just smart resource usage
Well, that is obvious. I doubt anyone would disagree with you on that. So why the need to force it to happen through a government-backed monopoly?
"Thus, digital socialism can be viewed as a third way that renders irrelevant the old debates."
No it doesn't. Why? Because on the one hand you're talking forms of government and on the other you're talking digital collaboration. Try comparing apples to apples and your analogy rings truer. What may work for pooling resources within a piece of technology may not fair well in societies at large. The main reason being that there are very real political differences not only between groups of individuals but individuals themselves. At the risk of being as guilty as the author, you see the same things within collaborative technologies as forking is prominent. Furthermore, even within companies there is such collaboration so "collaboration" need not equal "communism."
Adding an -ism to the end of a word completely changes the concept. Doing something communally and sharing is not the same as being forced to share by the government.
This is a common misconception. A Communist society does not have a government.
Being forced to share by a government is Socialism, not Communism. Communism is a society where everybody pitches in together so that nobody is in need and private ownership not only does not exist, but is not needed. It's a nice idea, and actually works very well in small groups where all members can police each other, but breaks down on any type of larger scale.
Unfortunately many people still think that the USSR was a Communist country, even though the name itself says "Socialist" not "Communist", and it's to the point where the term is horribly misused. Kind of along the same lines as most people thinking the USA is a Democracy when in fact it is a Republic (or a "representational Democracy" if you prefer more politically 'correct' terminology).
Quote from one of the biggest Communists: Thomas Jefferson
That statement made me cringe, because it contradicts the whole body of knowledge that exists about Jefferson.
Thomas Jefferson's quote merely shows that he was opposed to an inventor or discoverer gaining a monopoly over an idea. This is consistent with his defense of liberty, minimal government and free market capitalism.
I'm not really familiar with Jefferson's communist tendencies (especially since he was greatly in favor of a weak federal government, personal liberties, and against nationalized banks), but your quote really has nothing to do with communism either. The freedom of ideas is independent of communism or democracy, it has more to do with what rights the individual has. But I guess it just goes to show how lame this article is.
Reviewing just the first hour of video games.
> ... is that the word no longer means communism. Now it means oppressive government,
No, it ALWAYS meant 'planned economy' and that implies a planner. To make that work requires force, and the only entity which can use force is the State.
And that is why the Internet is about as far from .communism as you can get and the article is either idiocy or pushing a political agenda. There is no central planning on the Internet, which is why it works so well. Voluntary cooperation is as American/Capitalist/etc as Mom, Apple Pie and (until recently) Chevy.
Democrat delenda est
> ...It allows individuals to aspire, self-organize, and express their individuality in a helpful way. So in that respect, I agree with the article. I just don't think it's anything new or anything to do with Communism as a system...
So why do we move back to a stupid argument between the absolutes of Capitalism vs Communism when the correct solution is somewhere to be found in the middle?
The key is that the Internet is Infrastructure. The tools we develop on it to organize ourselves are just Infrastructure. Open Source software, OSes and libraries are Infrastructure. It makes sense that individuals will sometimes collaborate in their own self interest to build common infrastructure, because ultimately it results in more benefit to individuals in the form of increased economic activity. If you're going to call the Internet Communist, you might as well also tar roads, bridges, water systems, sewage...
Many think it should all be privatized, but this is a fringe view and the view of the majority is that some infrastructure is best implemented as some kind of collective endeavor, and that this is fine and normal. Communism is just a scare-word to make you think that this is somehow not good and normal.
The Open Source community exemplifies this.
Despite its many flaws, capitalism is the quickest breeding ground for altruistic communal endeavours. When computer communication became efficient, an Open Source community was inevitable.
I hesitate to break it to you, but *the* distinguishing characteristic of Marxism is the advocacy of the *violent* overthrow of the bourgoisie. Marx would be a footnote in history if he did not advocate that course of action and have half the world take him up on it.
When I read the Manifesto, my takeaway was that Marx was really railing against Corporatism instead of Capitalism. My opinion of him was that he wasn't mad at Capitalism per say, he was mad at the social structures people created when they participated in corporate activities that demeaned and abused the workers. Why didn't he just say Corporatism instead of Capitalism? My guess is that he didn't know how else to describe the enemy he was writing about. Michael Crichton writes in The Great Train Robbery that the Victorians were the first 'modern' civilization and they were the first to grapple with all the current social issues we have right now with urbanization, capitalism, etc. The very concept of 'Corporatism' probably hadn't been invented yet and Marx had to work with the concepts at hand. When people work for a corporation, they tend to be subsumed within an amoral entity that reflects the sum total of its individual components. Thus being in the corporate environment tends to decrease our empathy for our fellow humans and in Marx's time, would lead to the abuses he saw.
Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
Who is being compelled against their will to contribute? While each individual may contribute to their ability, it is on a voluntary basis. "Each according to their need" is ONLY being met as market demands and individuals consider it in their best interest to meet that demand. Just because the exchange can not be measured in per unit monetary compensation does not make the contribution "selfless". People contribute for recognition, or hell, maybe because they actually gain value from their own work and can not loose any value by sharing it. Also, major contributions give you an advantage of time to market. Red Hat, for example, greatly gains from its contributions because while the information is free to share (even if they are not assisting directly to the free exchange) they have built the reputation of quality products and can be the first to teach people how to use it.
I think what people are finally realizing is that censorship isn't greedy, but irrational. Copyright was intended to be very limited, but people like Jack Valenti made a living as a con artist convincing people otherwise. Copyright is government attempting to put a control on something that doesn't need to be controlled, and as people are escaping the abuse of government regulation by way of free and voluntary exchange of information as was MEANT to be protected in the US Constitution, of course we are seeing tremendous growth.
Karl Marx would have called for government to come in and heavily regulate software. Designate a central authority to manage the development of software, public schools train a specific number of necessary software developers, outlaw the possession, development, or use of "rogue" compilers to help protect people from poor quality software that wasn't approved by the state, and possibly imprison people for unauthorized forking of projects arguing that such action "steals" the necessary resources of the state and impedes progress.
Centralized, communistic control over what people develop and how is the way of Microsoft, if not even more so by Apple. Government does give them big contracts too, and many government (public) schools mandate their use.
James Madison and Thomas Jefferson both said that with no natural right to real property ownership, there is no imaginable justification for natural rights over an idea (Jefferson Letters). Does that make THEM Communists?
Further, just because everyone wins does not make it collectivism. Collectivism asks for self sacrifice, that you as an individual is not as important as the many. Really? That is why people develop software? Hackers don't have really huge egos when it comes to their accomplishments? Gee, guess I had it all wrong.
I think the Internet is Communistic about as much as I think Al Gore invented it. If I haven't made my point yet, I don't know what else I can say that will.
Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
The author has kind of missed the point. Communism is an economic system. It is not about communal behaviour at all. Communism is an alternative to Capitalism or Socialism. It is not an alternative to democracy.
Most of the systems the author speaks about are new social systems that operate within a Capitalist framework. They could not exist in a communist framework, unless sanctioned by the politburo, because in a communist everything is owned by the state.
Participatory Governance : The only feasible option for a real democracy, where everyone really does have a say.
Whoever wrote that doesn't know what Communism is, at all. What they are describing is entirely free-market anarchism.
Voluntary associations are a natural consequence of limited central authorities. Tocqueville's Democracy in America describes in great detail the amount of voluntary associations that sprang up in the country's early history.
They fill the voids that government and corporations simply can't fill. Sharing and the building of like-minded communities and organizations are not Communistic or Socialistic in nature, unless they are forced.
I hope the internet can stay like this but it'll be a hard, continuous fight. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
If you have something that you dont want anyone to know, maybe you shouldnt be doing it in the first place -Eric Schmidt
"Most people in the West, including myself, were indoctrinated with the notion that extending the power of individuals necessarily diminishes the power of the state, and vice versa"
What? Western culture has been about empowering the individual, about heroes. Conversely, communist nations such as Russia and China are less about individuals, and more about "the good of many outweighs the good of the few".
The internet works because in many cases empowered individuals will choose the good of the many because it aligns so nicely with the good of the few/themselves. Some of these cases happen naturally, and some are the result of government setting a proper framework for interaction (so, extending the power of individuals by extending the power of government).
There is no "conversely" here.
This isn't communism in the sense that a government would implement communism (ie all property's held in common), it's more like communism in the way that it's communism to help your neighbor move out. It's holding things in common that have no intrinsic worth (eg the polarity on the hard disk's platter doesn't have any value in and of itself, but when you put it together with the other bits they become an mp3) and then giving labor for free that would normally be charged for (just like helping your neighbor move).
It's more like communitism (yeah, I made that up), where people help each other just to help each other out. It's a great thing, but communism it's not.
Where are you getting this idea that socialism means "Force"? I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it doesn't fit anything I've ever heard or read on the subject. I would say you're confusing socialism and authoritarian communism, except that you seemed to make a clear distinction between the two.
No, that's community.
Middle ground? There is no middle ground. What DOES exist is different questions, but not middle ground. If one tends towards a better society, than a mix of both is certain to be a failure.
The problem I see is that people (of certain political tendencies) give government certain god-like qualities, most common believing government has perfect knowledge, or that anything the government does is "free". Government is simply a business that "we" have authorized a virtually unlimited use of force. Beyond that they have no special super powers. Government can help organize a military to protect against foreign invaders, police that can neutrally handle disputes over violations of social contract, courts to handle issues of contract law and establish statutes regarding the interpretation of contract language to help encourage mutually beneficial voluntary exchange of goods and service.
To say "we need the government to blah blah blah..." is to say that violence is a necessary means to an end. To paraphrase Jonathan Gullible, the penalty for all crimes against government is death / loss of life. This is the difference between taxes and charitable donation or voluntary exchange; people will be most compelled to be charitable with a gun to their head, how could we ever expect to get so much from people on a voluntary basis? If it is a one time thing, I would be inclined to agree, but can you really argue maximum net production through such means? This implies that a robber could keep robbing the same home repeatedly and that their gain will be proportional to the number of times they rob the house. Does knowing which houses are the richest change much?
To paraphrase Richard Saldman
Let me suggest an experiment. ... For one year don't buy or use any Microsoft products. ... At the same time send the government no money, that is, pay no taxes. Then wait. Watch who comes after you for your money and how and with what weapons.
The "problem" with the government trying to regulate the Internet is where do you point the gun, the governments only tool? The government does not do work, it only consumes, with the intent and strength to intimidate by threat do do what it desires... but it is ok because it is the will of (51% of) the people, right?
And just because it was brought it up, got to mention something. I am really getting tired of this "finding a middle ground" / "moderate" position. Moderation is a tool of negotiation, not a principle unto itself. Take for example an accused killer. The courts have the authorization to take this persons life if convicted of the crime, so there is a burden of the court to justify both its use of force, and their authority to do so. In this particular case, it is found that the police in their enthusiasm fabricated evidence in order to make the case go faster. Unfortunately for the police as a matter of checks and balances, their fabrication of evidence and getting caught in doing so means that the accused man must be let go, because an objective measure of evidence, according to the law, is now impossible. One one side, (a type of classical conservative) people claim that unfortunately the man must be let go, and shame of the police for tainting their revered leg
Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
This is what I was thinking.
Individuals banding together, each contributing and receiving value in return is what the free market is all about - there are no conflicts of interest amongst rational actors.
The problems start when people decide that they know better than the individual, and want to force - or "incentivize" - their compliance.
The real battle in society is not capitalism vs. socialism, but statism vs. individualism.
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