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Revived LHC Could Run Through the Winter

Jack Spine writes "When you are powering nuclear particle beams that could drill a hole through 30 metres of copper, you don't want to be paying a premium for electricity. However, Cern scientists are determined that the delayed experiment will get some workable results, and so are preparing to run the machine throughout the winter."

45 of 164 comments (clear)

  1. I don't mean to nitpick... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Cern should be CERN, as it stands for "Conseil Europeen pour la Recherche Nucleaire"

    1. Re:I don't mean to nitpick... by 2.7182 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I definitely think that you meant to nitpick in this case. Don't deny it.

    2. Re:I don't mean to nitpick... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      E, CERN is pretty commonly referred to around here. We talk about the impressive multi-national project all of the time. A moment of editing would have saw that error.

      I know this, because I'm very drunk right now. If an inebriated AC can see that, I would at least hope that an editor would.

      Then again, I'm new here.

    3. Re:I don't mean to nitpick... by repapetilto · · Score: 5, Informative

      He didn't just try to nitpick. He actually did it. Get it straight truncated e.

    4. Re:I don't mean to nitpick... by antonlacon · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's a British article. As such, the writing style is correct.

    5. Re:I don't mean to nitpick... by nebaz · · Score: 5, Funny

      CEPLARN (Conseil Europeen Pour LA Recherche Nucleaire) would be a cooler name, it sounds vaguely Klingon.

      --
      Rhymes that keep their secrets will unfold behind the clouds.There upon the rainbow is the answer to a neverending story
    6. Re:I don't mean to nitpick... by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, the British follow the universal practice of properly capitalizing acronyms. The literate ones do anyways.

      As such, no the writing style is not correct.

    7. Re:I don't mean to nitpick... by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 4, Funny
      I'll see your CEPLARN and raise you a FASOTRAGRABRUPAC. Nothing like Navy acronyms, they sound like Ringworld proper names.

      Hmm... so that's where he got them...

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    8. Re:I don't mean to nitpick... by Random+Destruction · · Score: 4

      E, CERN is ...

      Shouldn't that be 'e'?

      --
      :x
    9. Re:I don't mean to nitpick... by edumacator · · Score: 2, Insightful

      the pseudo (butchered) American version

      If Chaucer read Shakespeare, he would have thought Shakespeare was butchering the language. If Shakespeare read Dickens, Shakespeare would have thought Dickens had butchered the language.

      Language evolves. Saying one rule-based system, (this doesn't apply to colloquialisms or slang) is "butchered" is just a modern day form of prejudice.

    10. Re:I don't mean to nitpick... by Muad'Dave · · Score: 2, Informative

      Close.
      CINC = Commander-in-Chief
      LANT = atLANTic
      FLT = Fleet
      As opposed to CINCPACFLT, of course.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
  2. Odd... by nametaken · · Score: 2, Interesting

    They were normally going to be closed during the winter?

    1. Re:Odd... by DavidRawling · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I guess power costs more during the Winter months, especially if you have a billion people using electric heaters.

    2. Re:Odd... by linzeal · · Score: 5, Funny

      Its Europe, send packages of condoms in the mail and directions to orgies. That will keep those buggers warm.

    3. Re:Odd... by DavidRawling · · Score: 3, Funny

      I should clarify that when I say "I guess", what I mean is that it's in the damn article as well as being good old common sense. I suppose if you didn't read before posting (9 paragraphs is too long?) and you don't have common sense ...

      ... well then you'd be on /., right?

    4. Re:Odd... by KronosReaver · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Power being more expensive in the winter is only common sense if you pay your own power bill...
      Something he probably doesn't have to do living in his mother's basement...

    5. Re:Odd... by timeOday · · Score: 5, Insightful
      OK, I read the article. Here is my summary:

      We are not going to shut down LHC for the winter due to high electricity costs. If it never occured to you that we would, since the apparatus and the staff would seemingly cost so much more than the electricity anyways, congratulations, it turns out you were right even when we didn't know it yet, thus we will be running the collider and everything is exactly as you would have assumed had you never read this article at all. Thanks for your time.

    6. Re:Odd... by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Funny

      They should have built a second LHC in the southern hemisphere. That way they could operate all year.

    7. Re:Odd... by tasinet.gr · · Score: 3, Funny

      That's true, they can't read directions for shit.

    8. Re:Odd... by deglr6328 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Translation: "Fuck! D-zero's collected like 6 inverse femtobarns of integrated luminosity and we're just sitting on our asses looking at cosmic ray hits!!! Who gives a shit about power $$$?! Switch the fucker on!!"

      --
      - "Hear that?! The percolations are imminent! Cease your ingress!"
    9. Re:Odd... by hughk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I am currently working in IT at the trading arm of a major European energy supplier. Large variations in seasonal power demands are normal. Major consumers often attempt to hedge their consumption on the market (they may also link to the weather indices as one element is clearly ambient temperature).

      Normally, reserves have to be used over the winter peaks. One of Cern's suppliers, EDF uses a lot of nuclear but that tends to run at a fairly constant rate. Power tends to get balanced by the use of hydroelectric systems (paired reservoirs coupled through pump/generators) but these tend to be good for hours at best. There are higher-cost emergency power systems based on things like gas which can come on line in minutes. Anyway, normally Cern would close for maintenance over winter but one of the side effects of the depression and with factories working at lower capacity is, of course, cheaper electricity.

      --
      See my journal, I write things there
    10. Re:Odd... by moosesocks · · Score: 2, Informative

      Maybe not that obvious.

      Most major experiments shut down for at least a few months out of the year for scheduled maintenance and/or improvements. Additionally, most big projects don't have the funding to operate 24/7/365 -- cryo expenses are particularly staggering.

      Given the amount of time it takes to warm/cool the LHC, it makes sense to schedule all of this maintenance all in one go. Once you're in that frame of mind, you can reschedule your operations to reduce electricity costs...and why wouldn't you?

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    11. Re:Odd... by professionalfurryele · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well clearly they do have a concept of "the cost of lost opportunity" since they are running the thing over winter. CERN has a deal with a French power provider in which they are provided with power at reduced rates for most of the year, except for 22 days in winter. During this time the rate is very high. These are the days they are planning to run it anyway. Why did they make this deal?

      Big experiments often require lots of scheduled maintenance for upgrades, repairs, fixing annoying design bugs that stop something from working properly. These can take time. It makes sense to schedule these during the period of time when the thing costs the most to operate. That is why experiments that draw large amounts of power will shut down sometimes during winter. They made this deal with Ãlectricité de France because it would save money in most scenarios.

      In this case, the deal has cost money, which is unfortunate. Making the deal was still the right choice. Most of the time these kind of agreements save cash.

      Your suggestion that it have it's own power plant is truly asinine. Why buy cheap commercial power when you can build your own plant for twice the price. These are particle physicists, they know particle physics, not power plant operation.

    12. Re:Odd... by WindBourne · · Score: 3, Funny

      You read directions for shitting?????

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  3. LHC Could Run Through the Winter ... by SupremoMan · · Score: 5, Funny

    Or till Earth is destroyed. Whichever comes first...

    1. Re:LHC Could Run Through the Winter ... by perryizgr8 · · Score: 3, Informative

      we call it a JOKE around here!

      --
      Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
    2. Re:LHC Could Run Through the Winter ... by moniker127 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Here is some bad news in that regard:
      They've spotted Gordon Freeman running around the LHC.
      http://skipsjunk.net/linked-pics/LHC_Gordon-Freeman_2.JPG

    3. Re:LHC Could Run Through the Winter ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      John Oliver was on-location at the LHC for the Daily Show http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=225921&title=Large-Hadron-Collider

  4. heh heh by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'm a tag

  5. Re:How they''ll be paying for it... by illumastorm · · Score: 3, Funny

    Why ask for 1 trillion when we can ask for 1 billion? *raises pinky*

  6. So what will cause the delay next time? by w0mprat · · Score: 4, Funny

    I do recall a paper suggesting that the experiment itself will interfere with itself back through time and prevent the machine from ever powering up.

    I can't find the paper on Google though, I really need to read it it'll help me figure out why the time machine I'm building doesn't work.

    --
    After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
    1. Re:So what will cause the delay next time? by noidentity · · Score: 2, Funny

      I do recall a paper suggesting that the experiment itself will interfere with itself back through time and prevent the machine from ever powering up. I can't find the paper on Google though, I really need to read it it'll help me figure out why the time machine I'm building doesn't work.

      You didn't want me to tell you this, but you found it, built the machine, and caused a disaster, then went back and made it so you wouldn't find the paper.

  7. Re:"Laser" by Neo+Quietus · · Score: 2, Informative

    I recall reading about the energy dump they use when they're done with the beam, and how it "fuzzifies" the beam before letting hit the thermal dump.

    The beam wouldn't blow a huge crater in the copper, it doesn't have that much power, but it is very tightly focused, so it would drill a small hole 30 meters deep.

  8. Re:"Laser" by Neo+Quietus · · Score: 2, Informative

    The LHC uses a pulsed beam instead of a continuous one, so all the energy in a single pulse of the beam can drill a 30 meter hole though solid copper.

    What they ended up doing is running the beam through a "fuzzifier" to make it's cross section larger, and then rapidly scanning it back and forth across a target of some very heat resistant material... either carbon or space shuttle tile type stuff. That way they're not blowing holes in their beam dump.

  9. competition with Fermilab by bcrowell · · Score: 5, Informative

    This may have to do with the fact that Fermilab could find the Higgs particle very soon, and then the LHC would have been scooped on its single most important reason for existing.

    1. Re:competition with Fermilab by BungaDunga · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If it doesn't exist (or rather, if CERN doesn't find it) we would at least have learned that the Higgs (if it exists) doesn't show up at the energy levels produced in CERN. That itself would be interesting.

    2. Re:competition with Fermilab by Werthless5 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Unfortunately, Fermilab is unable to probe the highest possible mass ranges of the Higgs. Not without running indefinitely, that is.

      The LHC is capable of this, probably by the end of next year we'll have either fully excluded or discovered the Higgs. And a bunch of other stuff

      The biggest reason to run through winter is so that we can better understand the experiment. More run time = more interesting stuff for physicists to do! The more time we run uninterrupted, the more quickly we'll be able to fine tune the instruments.

    3. Re:competition with Fermilab by Werthless5 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is absurd. We're talking about the cutting edge of physical discovery, and you're complaining about cost? The total cost is a few billion, and it has been spread out over 15 years.

      It might make the most startling discoveries in scientific history, but apparently that's not important!

  10. Mods: Engage humor detectors by symbolset · · Score: 5, Funny

    Unfortunately in the southern hemisphere the spin is reversed, which could result in the anti-god particle. They'll play with black holes, but there are limits to their hubris.

    The next version is the Trans-equator Hadron Collider (THC) which will circle the equator and have a branch that passes through the core in an attempt to discover stuff that's like, really cool, man. Here's a diagram.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  11. British capitalization of acronyms by Jim+Efaw · · Score: 5, Informative

    This has been discussed previously on Slashdot. British writing often uses only initial-caps for pronounceable acronyms. The BBC is especially aggressive about this, resulting in things like "Nasa", which looks like a foreign name at first glance from an American eye. Why the BBC differentiates "BAFTA" from "NASA" in their style guide is a mystery to me; however, in recent BBC articles, it appears that the BBC is writing "Bafta" in actual practice.

    BBC House Style and Writing Guidelines, September 2007 (in PDF or raw HTML):

    "Usually, if an acronym is pronounced as a word, use an initial capital only. If it is pronounced as individual letters, use all capitals:

    • Aids Nato Acas Unicef
    • BBC CD GCSE PC
    • CD-Rom (pronounced partly as letters, partly as a word)

    But follow the preference of organisations with their own names and brands: DfES BAFTA MORI RADA

    1. Re:British capitalization of acronyms by DirePickle · · Score: 3, Informative

      If we're really picking nits here, strictly a "pronounceable acronym" is redundant. Abbreviations like BBC, CD, and FBI are initialisms, if you want a special word for them. I'm surprised that the BBC isn't anal about that usage also.

  12. We announced this over 6 months ago by Werthless5 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Is it a slow news day or what?

  13. Re:"Laser" by Lord+Crc · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I read some while ago that the LHC was the first particle accelerator powerful enough to basically destroy itself if the beam was dumped directly into the walls.

    The energy stored in the entire beam will be around 350MJ, which, if I did the conversion correctly, is equivalent to about 83kg TNT. Of course it won't be able to dump all of it in an instant (at least not in the same location), but I imagine it could still be quite destructive if it fails.

  14. Re:"Laser" by Neo+Quietus · · Score: 2, Informative

    I think I remember the article saying that the hole would be 30 meters in length and have a diameter a little smaller than a pencil. That's not an insubstantial amount of energy, by any means.

  15. I nitpick your nitpick by Attila+the+Bun · · Score: 4, Informative

    Cern should be CERN, as it stands for "Conseil Europeen pour la Recherche Nucleaire"

    Actually it doesn't. The Conseil Europeen pour la Recherche Nucleaire was a provisional body created in 1952, and no longer exists. In 1954 the European Laboratory for Particle Physics was founded, and the C.E.R.N. was dissolved. The laboratory is named CERN, and although it is conventionally capitalised, it is not an acronym.