Slashdot Mirror


Should Enterprise IT Give Back To Open Source?

snydeq writes "InfoWorld reports on the fight over open source 'leeches' — companies that use open source technology but don't give back to the open source community. While some view such organizations as a tragedy of the commons, others view the notion of 'freeloaders' as a relic of open source's Wild West era, when coding was a higher calling and free software a religion. To be sure, increased adoption by mainstream enterprises has played a hand in changing the terms of this debate. Yet, as the biggest consumer of open source software, enterprise IT still gives almost nothing back to the community, critics contend, calling into question the long-term effect corporate culture will have on the evolution of open source — and the long-term effect open source will have on rewiring companies toward collaboration."

29 of 312 comments (clear)

  1. Of course they *should*... by nitehawk214 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    But many companies are too small to make a signifigant contribution. Are we suggesting making contributions manditory in order to get free software? Doing this would simply destroy the OSS movement completely.

    Microsoft requires contributions... of money. Small companies that cant help develop OSS would simply be forced back to the traditional pay-for software.

    --
    I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    1. Re:Of course they *should*... by Hatta · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Small companies that use open source software are giving back by employing those who administer this software.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    2. Re:Of course they *should*... by Dan+Ost · · Score: 5, Interesting

      They're also giving back by submitting bug reports and helping devs find problems in the software. They might also help others solve problems in mailing lists and forums.

      Most users that give back give back in the same way. Why should we hold small companies to a higher standard?

      --

      *sigh* back to work...
    3. Re:Of course they *should*... by mabhatter654 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The real problem is that most IT departments are "cost centers" now. Every hour you spend not working on a "billable" project to another department is "waste". When accounting sees that you spend 2 workdays a month writing OSS documentation or answering FAQs (because you're giving back solutions to things you've learned how to fix, or cleaning up documentation to match your company's standards.. all good things) Accounting will see that as "wasted" time and prefer you just spent the $2500 on a package so that you can "call somebody" and have them do the work. Also, many department managers are paid by the "value" of their departments. If you manage a department running free software with few license fees and only 2-3 "reporting" workers then you're not taken as seriously as the manager that has a $100k sunk investment in IBM or Microsoft tools per year and 5-6 reports... because the later "must do more work". When the 2-3 reports are spending time writing documentation (because it works!) and not doing "billable" fixing management wonders why you can't have one less person.

    4. Re:Of course they *should*... by Forge · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Companies, large and small with no internal developers do make contributions to OSS without even thinking about it or being noticed.

      These are the same companies who PAY the likes of RedHat for "support". The auditors sometimes insist that we buy "licenses" for all "production platforms". So which companies do and sponsor the most Linux development? Why these same OSS vendors.

      On top of that, those companies with internal talent tend to contribute without management even being aware. It gos along the lines of:

      Manager-: Geeks, we need this by next Friday, get cracking. Geeks-: Sure boss (don't know how but we will do it)

      Then the geeks go to the community and together they hack code and make "whatever" work. That code becomes part of the community's stockpile and sometimes ends up in the official tree.

      --
      --= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
    5. Re:Of course they *should*... by HiThere · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's their loss. The next time the software's revised, their version will be incompatible. Different fixes will have been used. And the revisions will work with the standard fixes, not their custom mods.

      So, yes, they're playing dog in the manger. But it's likely to hurt them more than it hurts the community. (The community probably won't even notice.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    6. Re:Of course they *should*... by Hilltopperpete · · Score: 4, Interesting

      A Raleigh, NC-based firm, Relevance, Inc. (who I am using for my entrepreneurial venture), has "Open Source Fridays" where all of their employees take the day to work on open source. It makes for much better employees, as they often end up using the very patches they help write, and they can best utilize the nuances of languages they put careful study into. Justin Gehtland is CEO-- he wrote "Pragmatic Ajax", "Rails of Java Developers", the Ajax section of "ADWR", and won a Jolt Award for coauthoring "Better, Faster, Lighter Java". Relevance has a number of employees who collaborate on major pragmatic books or even conceive and execute themselves, like Stuart Halloway's "Programming Clojure". The benefit of working hard in open source is that your employees become incredible programmers. Here's some books by people on staff: http://thinkrelevance.com/books Here's a link to their work on open source: http://thinkrelevance.com/open-source

  2. Just To Be Clear... by sycodon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The Free Open Source Software community, that builds free, open source software, is complaining that they are not, in one way or another, being another compensated for their free software?

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    1. Re:Just To Be Clear... by Virak · · Score: 4, Informative

      No, you don't seem to be very clear on this. While I don't agree with these complaints, you are blatantly wrong on three counts. First, it is not the community as a whole, it is a subset of it, and a tiny one at that. Second, free as in speech, not as in beer. Third, they aren't asking for "compensation".

    2. Re:Just To Be Clear... by eln · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Agreed. The OSI during the late 1990s went out of their way to try and make Open Source palatable to businesses, and did so in large part by trying to water down the "share and share alike" ethic of the Free Software movement. These are the people like Eric S Raymond and his ilk who went around urging companies to take in Open Source software. They sold it with the whole Cathedral and Bazaar thing, where these giant companies could leverage the productive power of a large group of developers without having to pay for a large group of developers. They intentionally glossed over and marginalized the FSF's idea that consumers of Free Software should contribute to and redistribute the code, and created a split between the "Free Software" and "Open Source" concepts. They "approved" a significant number of software licenses that were technically Open Source, but were entirely against the basic idea Free Software was built on. In return for all this kowtowing to corporations and putting their concerns above the basic ethos of Free Software, they were rewarded with board positions at high flying dot-com companies, and millions of now-worthless shares of inflated dot-com stock.

      Now we complain that these corporations are taking advantage of Open Source software in exactly the way the OSI told them they could? Sure, some of them played lip service to "contributing back to the community," and some of them even do. But none of them will ever contribute back as much as they get, because the entire reason they went with Open Source in the first place was so they could get all the development work without having to pay for it.

      This is what you get when you take a movement based on an ideal and pervert it to try and take "market share" for a free product. You get more people using the product, but you lose the ideal in the process.

    3. Re:Just To Be Clear... by Braino420 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I understand your point about the OSI, but I'm not sure how it relates to this topic of corporations contributing back code. Sure, there may be less strict licenses that OSI approve of, but the GPL allows corporations to do the _exact same thing_.

      Now we complain that these corporations are taking advantage of Open Source software in exactly the way the OSI told them they could?

      The OSI _and_ the FSF.

      But none of them will ever contribute back as much as they get

      I'm not sure that's possible for anyone at this point.

      This is what you get when you take a movement based on an ideal and pervert it to try and take "market share" for a free product. You get more people using the product, but you lose the ideal in the process.

      Good riddance. I'm glad the OSI did what they did, and I'm glad because it allows the pragmatic OSS people to be disassociated with the FSF while still with them in some underlying principles. Now, I'm grateful for what the FSF has done, but they will usually stick to their ideals when it's impractical. I simply want people to use my code, and if they redistribute it, then they should give their changes back to me. That's all I want, not some dream about people using free software everywhere (although I have no problem with that either).

      --
      They call me the wookie man, I guess that's what I am
    4. Re:Just To Be Clear... by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Woah. Wait a minute.

      I designed and produced several Embedded system products based on Linux. I DID give back. Not by sending in code, I did not change a line of anything in the linux kernel. I DID give back by posting knowledge to problems online freely as well as saying the product runs linux and here's a link to the source code for all the apps and packages in it.

      Only a nutjob thinks you must "give back" by submitting patches or code. The Knowledge given back that solved even 1 persons problem faster is valuable. Along with the advertising that the acknowledgment and the link to sources.

      Jeebus, the Current Panasonic Plasma and LCD tv's all run linux, and you can find the link as well as the "it runs linux" advertisement in the setup menu. That's a GREAT give back from Panasonic. They get the name linux in the face of millions of people that have no clue what linux is.

      The companies that package OSS up and try to pass it off as theirs? Yes they are the asshats of industry. Don't lump the rest of us in with the idiots.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    5. Re:Just To Be Clear... by M.+Baranczak · · Score: 4, Informative

      Now we complain that these corporations are taking advantage ...

      What's this "we" business? "We" are not complaining, one guy is complaining and he got his complaint posted on /.

      The freeloaders are a fact of life. And they don't really bother me. The value of a piece of software is what it can do for me; it's not dependent on scarcity. If a thousand other people start using this software, it has absolutely no effect on what I can do with it.

  3. But some software is more free than others by Tinctorius · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is exactly what the little voice in the head of everyone who firmly believes in the GPL says: everyone who uses open source software must give back, because it was free. I think people should shut that voice up. Now.

    The problem of freeloaders is approached here with sticks. Although that approach may work fine for some software or other licensed stuff, they work horribly if the customer has a choice. Instead, try the carrots approach. Make users fall in love with your project, so they actually want to give back to the software. Unfortunately, I don't know how to make the heartless, money-driven enterprise IT fall in love with a bunch of code, but it would obviously be a more durable solution than punishing everyone (what about other users?) who doesn't give back.

    It all gives the statement "this is free software" such a hypocritical ring to it, and that's probably the last thing you want if you're building a community. If your software is free, then everything you do with it must be a free choice, regardless of the context you're using it in.

    tl;dr Forcing people to contribute to free software is (oxy)moronic.

    1. Re:But some software is more free than others by Hatta · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is exactly what the little voice in the head of everyone who firmly believes in the GPL says: everyone who uses open source software must give back, because it was free. I think people should shut that voice up. Now.

      If you firmly believe in the GPL, then all you want given back are changes made to the code. If all you do is use the code, you have nothing to give back. Bug reports are of course appreciated but not required.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    2. Re:But some software is more free than others by LWATCDR · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is the problem with the FOSS model. The vast majority of the people only care about free as in beer. Heck even the majority of FOSS zelots on Slashdot contribute nothing to FOSS. They claim that they are supporters because they encourage other people to use FOSS. The problem with FOSS is people need to eat. They want to own a home and retire someday. To do that you must get paid.
      A good number of Kernel developers are getting paid by Red Hat, IBM, and Novell. Imagine that they are getting paid by companies that sell software and at in the case of IBM hardware.
      Firefox developers are getting paid by Google search. Yes Firefox makes money from... Advertising!
      OpenOffice developers are getting paid by Sun because Sun really hated Microsoft. Let us hope that keep up.
      You can never force people to contribute to FOSS. It will not happen and that is just that. What is worse is that they models of how one can make money with FOSS are limited to only a few types of software. Nobody will every pay for modifications and support for a casual game.

      This is why FOSS will never be the only model for software development. It is also why Linux if it is every really going to do well on the desktop will need to have a way for people to sell software.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    3. Re:But some software is more free than others by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is exactly what the little voice in the head of everyone who firmly believes in the GPL says: everyone who uses open source software must give back, because it was free. I think people should shut that voice up. Now.

      I firmly believe in the GPL and I don't believe "everyone who uses open source software must give back". I believe in following the license: use it freely, modify it freely, but give back your changes if you distribute. Anybody who doesn't support this position is free to create and use their own license on their own code.

      This whole thing is basically a strawman or a troll or similar. One guy who noboby's ever heard of says something stupid/controversial and then people (including you) start representing his view as if it was in any way representative of "GPL supporters".
      Given how "GPL Supporters" *constantly* emphasize the key point that companies don't have to give anything back at all unless they redistribute, it's pretty clear that his view is almost totally unrepresentative.

      The guy's probably either got some personal beef (wishes he hadn't released his stuff under the GPL so now attacks companies who use it and don't contribute, even thought that was his decision) or he just wants to promote his company or product.

    4. Re:But some software is more free than others by noidentity · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem of freeloaders is approached here with sticks. [...] Instead, try the carrots approach. Make users fall in love with your project, so they actually want to give back to the software.

      A freeloader is someone who puts a load on things; using free software doesn't burden the author. Since no load is being put on anyone, there is no giving back, but simply giving. This is a big point of free software, that it costs virtually nothing to allow everyone to use the software freely, so artificially restricting this is just wasting a free resource. Personally I feel that others using free software I write is a gift to me, as it gives me an audience and thus feedback and motivation to improve my software creation skills.

  4. No, they should not by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The idea that users should give back to the community is absurd. If the "community" was at all concerned about receiving some kind of recompense, surely they would have charged the users for the software.

    But Free Software is about freedom. Not only the freedom to give your source code away, but the freedom to modify and adapt software as needed. There is no concept of a user returning source code to the community except as a contributor (which, again, is a freely undertaken venture). The only time someone is required to "give back" to the community is when they seek to propagate their changes. Since the idea is to make sure everyone is able to use and modify the software as they need, it is necessary to require the new source changes.

    So if I don't steal your car, but only borrow it for a day and return it washed and waxed with the gas tank full, what is the point of claiming damages? That is sheer greed. It is the antithesis of what the Free Software Movement is all about.

    1. Re:No, they should not by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As a free software[1] developer, I don't care who uses my code without giving anything back, but they shouldn't expect anything from me beyond a tarball. If someone provides helpful bug reports, then we both benefit from improved software by my spending some time addressing them. If someone submits a patch that is useful to more than one person, we both benefit if I review and commit it.

      Someone who uses my code and gives nothing back is just irrelevant to me. If it helps them, then that's great for them, and I'm pleased that it's saved them the effort of reimplementing my work, but beyond that I just don't care.

      Community is important. Communities form because it benefits the members more to be part of them than to be entirely independent individuals. If you don't want to join a community, you can still get some of the benefits from its existence, but not all of them.

      [1] I prefer the term Hippyware - it's more expressive and less confusing.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  5. It's in the rules by 91degrees · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you don't like people using your code, then don't release it under a licence that allows people to use it without giving back.

    If you don't like people using stuff that your "community" created, what gives you the right to say how other people should let their code be used?

    What harm is done if they don't give back to the community? Failing to do so does no harm to the resource. It doesn't benefit it either but neither does using a closed source solution.

  6. Have your cake and eat it? by Shrike82 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    From TFA:

    The Eclipse community should create peer pressure to prevent the freeloaders and parasites from getting away without punishment

    How the hell can anyone consider "punishment" for people who use open-source software? If you make your code open-source then I thought the whole point was that anyone and everyone was free to use it within the constraints of the licence. Show me where it says "Thou shalt giveth back to the open-source community or faceth my wrath".

    This mentality is outrageous and damaging to the very principles of open-source software.

    --
    You can advertise in this sig from as little as £99.99 a month!
  7. Free Software by Kohath · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you have to give back, then it's not "free software". A similar thing was seen in the whole "Linux" vs. "GNU/Linux" debate. If it's really "free", then why the demands for something in return? Why the demands for credit? Why the complaints about freeloaders? Freeloading is always the result of giving something away for free.

  8. No, and this is a stupid question. by Leebert · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Free software developers lose exactly nothing when someone uses their software.

    Free software gains ubiquity when someone uses their software. Which translates into things like vendor support (drivers, etc.), the advantages of greater adoption for certain technologies (Metcalf's law type stuff), etc. etc.

  9. Call me an idiot but... by StylusEater · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ...I once quite a job over this exact problem. Managers at my old company constantly claimed "cost savings and ROI" by using these "new software tools" but didn't dare mention they were FOSS tools for fear of ridicule by the "CTO and CIO" folks who get their "tech news" from trade rags. Then, once I wrote a neat tool for file synchronization over several Linux boxen I asked to open it up because I needed help and also because I knew others in the community would benefit; and yes I was saving the company money. They said "No." and I said, "OK, I'm out." They offered more money and I said "I'm still out." Granted most folks on Slashdot will think I'm an idiot and not "American" or a "Capitalist" for doing such a thing but I sincerely believe folks need to start doing what I did in order to get it through the management brain that "without our code, you have no cost advantage over the competition." Now, unleash the /. ridicule hounds...

  10. Speaking as an Enterprise user by RabidMonkey · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I work for a large company that uses Open Source Software as its backbone. I have been pushing for us to put some money into some of the projects that we use, or to recontribute some of the patches we've made. In both cases, I am met with the stubborn answer "that is our intellectual property". Trying to argue that the spirit of Open Source to recontribute to improve products, and that we've built our company upon that spirit and so we should contribute falls on deaf ears. We've now gotten big enough that the senior management and lawyers are more concerned with our IP than with supporting the community that supported us when we were starting. It's bad enough that I'm not even allowed to post code snippets/example bind or ntp configs etc on to various mailing lists I may be on because they also belong to "us".

    There is a strong push at the technical level to recontribute, to fund a couple of the projects that we use heavily, but ultimately it's the higher ups and the legal folks that say no way.

    I expect things like that are the reason enterprises are leeches, and I expect there is a large contingent of technical workers who disagree with the decision. I know I do.

    --
    We emerge from our mother's womb an unformatted diskette; our culture formats us. - Douglas Coupland
    1. Re:Speaking as an Enterprise user by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Trying to argue that the spirit of Open Source to recontribute to improve products, and that we've built our company upon that spirit and so we should contribute falls on deaf ears. We've now gotten big enough that the senior management and lawyers are more concerned with our IP than with supporting the community that supported us when we were starting. It's bad enough that I'm not even allowed to post code snippets/example bind or ntp configs etc on to various mailing lists I may be on because they also belong to "us".

      There is a strong push at the technical level to recontribute, to fund a couple of the projects that we use heavily, but ultimately it's the higher ups and the legal folks that say no way.

      I expect things like that are the reason enterprises are leeches, and I expect there is a large contingent of technical workers who disagree with the decision. I know I do.

      The problem is that you are not communicating with the higher ups in language they understand. You say, "We should recontribute because that is the spirit of Open Source." They hear, "We should give away our hard work so that our competitors can benefit from it."
      What you should say is, "We should recontribute so that someone else can make IMPROVEMENTS on our modifications that we can then use without having to pay for it." You need to communicate to them that there are people out there who, once they see the changes you have made to the project, will make other changes that you would not have thought of, but that you can benefit from.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  11. There are NO open source leeches by SwashbucklingCowboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Here we go with this crap again...

    Listen folks - there are NO open source leeches. It is WRONG to put open source out for ALL to use and then start calling people names because they're using the software EXACTLY AS YOU ALLOWED THEM TO DO.

    If you want people to give back what they add THEN PUT IT IN THE LICENSE. Of course, that will limit the appeal of your software, but such is life.

  12. I give back by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I give back. I support, test, evangelize, promote, install, use, help others use FOSS.

    I use FOSS because it is FREE (Libre AND Gratis). Because of Linux (and other FOSS), I've helped change the minds of many people to the benefits of FOSS.

    Just recently, My Father-in-law had to reset his laptop (unfortunately XP) and had to re-install Adobe CS Suite. Well Adobe said he had too many installs already, and to call in. He called in, and they said "We don't support that version any longer".

    We all know to expect this behavior, but this was completely the last straw for my FIL, and he told the support person he will never use Adobe ever again.

    After I put in a Linux Server for him (Document Backup), and he saw how well it worked, he asked if Linux would work on his laptop. :-D

    So, we take Linux to one person at a time. We all work towards this.

    And while it may not look like we are making much progress, we are. I can recall back in the early days of Linux, how much of a "joke" it was. Well, slowly and surely it is starting to make real impact into the world.

    That impact is not because of corporate support for FOSS, it is because FOSS is being worked into corporate, just like when PC's started to sneak into corporate 35 years ago.

    One day, corporate is going to wake up and realize that FOSS is in the workplace, because the tools they have provided are not sufficient.

    Then ... you win.

    --
    Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.