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Wolfram Alpha Rekindles Campus Math Tool Debate

An anonymous reader sends in a story about how Wolfram Alpha is becoming the latest tool students are using to help with their schoolwork, and why some professors are worried it will interfere with the learning process. Quoting: "The goal of WolframAlpha is to bring high-level mathematics to the masses, by letting users type in problems in plain English and delivering instant results. As a result, some professors say the service poses tough questions for their classroom policies. 'I think this is going to reignite a math war,' said Maria H. Andersen, a mathematics instructor at Muskegon Community College, referring to past debates over the role of graphing calculators in math education. 'Given that there are still pockets of instructors and departments in the US where graphing calculators are still not allowed, some instructors will likely react with resistance (i.e. we still don't change anything) or possibly even with the charge that using WA is cheating.'"

13 of 339 comments (clear)

  1. I don't see how this matters by InstinctVsLogic · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Just do what my school does and make assignments worth 10 - 15% and expect some noise. For a lot of professors, assignments are really only meant to keep the student up to date on the material. The students that rely on WolframAlpha will only end up screwing themselves over.

    1. Re:I don't see how this matters by The+Snowman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Just do what my school does and make assignments worth 10 - 15% and expect some noise. For a lot of professors, assignments are really only meant to keep the student up to date on the material. The students that rely on WolframAlpha will only end up screwing themselves over.

      I had math and computer science classes where homework was not graded. All course credit came from exams. If you "cheated" on your homework, you came up short on the exam where showing all work was required to receive any credit for a problem. Those are the best types of classes, because it truly tests your ability to solve problems.

      --
      24 beers in a case, 24 hours in a day. Coincidence? I think not!
    2. Re:I don't see how this matters by Chris+Burke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Those are the best types of classes, because it truly tests your ability to solve problems.

      Ability to solve problems in the limited-time test format.

      And I say this as someone who excels at 50 min or 80 min exams, yet would at times feel that one of my peers clearly understood the material as well or better than I did, but did not excel at the exam format and thus received worse course grades.

      Since graduating, never in my career have I encountered a situation where I had to solve 25 simple yet unrelated problems in under an hour without the use of references or collaboration. I'm sure it's possible someone has, or could construct a scenario in which they would, but in general I just don't think the ability to do this is necessary to demonstrate competence in your field.

      I do agree that exams are important for making sure a student really knows the material themselves, and there's only so much you can do with the format. I don't have a better way of doing things to suggest. I'm just pointing out that exams throw another arbitrary dimension on top of the course material that some people may or may not excel at regardless of how well they know the material and how well they can solve the problems.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    3. Re:I don't see how this matters by Chris+Burke · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So you shouldn't have to know how to solve a given problem yourself, in a vacuum, because in the "real world" we have reference books and other people to collaborate with.

      By yourself, in a vacuum, with no reference books or people to collaborate with, and an arbitrary one-hour time limit, and arbitrarily simplified problems that don't actually represent what you have to solve "in the real world"? Yeah, you shouldn't (hypothetically, like I said I have no better alternative to exams) have to do that because most people -- certainly myself -- don't have to do that in "the real world"! Ever! I've been out of college twice as long as I was in it, and I've never had any challenge at work that was anything like test format.

      Now, apply that logic to the whole population of potential collaborators / reference book writers.

      Who is it that you think is writing reference books solely from their own memory, without referencing any other books or sources? That's not how it works. And even more outrageously, who is tasked by their publisher to write 10 paragraph-long essays on 10 unrelated subjects with a 1 hour deadline for a technical reference?

      Since anyone you might collaborate with also believes the above, they won't know how to solve the problem either.

      See, the problem with "apply that logic" type arguments is when you completely fail to properly represent the logic, in this case by excluding most of it. I never said "won't know how to solve the problem", in fact I said the opposite. It is a simple fact that you can know to solve problems, yet not do well on exams.

      And since real life isn't your ludicrous strawman of "nobody knows how to solve anything, so who can you collaborate with", collaboration has a wonderful knowledge-multiplying effect. Because if there's something I don't know in order to solve something, but a coworker does, then I can use their knowledge to enhance my own and solve the problem instead of failing.

      At some point the buck stops at the individual. You need to know how to solve the given problems, by yourself.

      I clearly said "they understood the material as well or better than I did". Like, by themselves. Just they did worse on the test format. I was very specific about what I was talking about. "Knowing how to solve problems by yourself" is not equivalent to "doing well on exams".

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    4. Re:I don't see how this matters by node+3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Furthermore if, in reality, I find a faster and more efficient way of completing my work I don't get fired for "cheating". I get a raise and possibly a promotion if I keep improving things.

      Actually, in the real world, you just get more work.

    5. Re:I don't see how this matters by Brian+Gordon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Since graduating, never in my career have I encountered a situation where I had to solve 25 simple yet unrelated problems in under an hour without the use of references or collaboration.

      I said this same thing in Algebra 1, and Geometry, and Algebra 2. Around precalc I started to get the picture. I can't imagine going to a reference book to see that the b in y=mx+b is the y-intercept.

    6. Re:I don't see how this matters by Chris+Burke · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And yet another person interprets "in real life you can always use references" to mean "in real life you don't have to know anything without a reference."

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
  2. Protestant Work Ethic by unlametheweak · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's the Protestant Work Ethic that if it is easy (or easier to do) then it is somehow bad. Like all learning tools, this may be used for cheating, just like a butcher knife can be used to murder somebody. If I could have had feedback that was quick and easy when I was in school then I probably would have excelled at Mathematics instead of dropping it as soon as possible. Tools like this are great for people who can't afford tutors and who don't have family members who are educated enough to help them with their homework.

    Math, I have heard it said, is the great (social/economic) equalizer, but experience has demonstrated that only people who are lucky enough to have exceptional teachers or middle class families will have the environment to excel. A well written software program cannot ignore you, no matter how poorly you are dressed or who your friends and enemies are.

    Teachers who worry about cheating obviously don't have the skills to assess their students abilities.

    1. Re:Protestant Work Ethic by Chris+Burke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's the Protestant Work Ethic that if it is easy (or easier to do) then it is somehow bad. Like all learning tools, this may be used for cheating, just like a butcher knife can be used to murder somebody.

      In college I took "Calc II with Maple". Maple, fyi, is a program for doing symbolic mathematics (as opposed to say matlab which is analytic), and it knows more calculus than I ever would or could. We not only got to use Maple on our homeworks, we took our exams in a computer lab.

      Easy, right? Ha! That class was pure evil. Since they knew that we were freed from the tedium of the raw mechanics of integrating/deriving, that meant they were free to make the problems as complex as they wanted. Yeah Maple could tell you the answer, but only after you'd figured out how to frame the question, and if you knew how to use the result to reach the next step of the problem. You had to know how to apply the calculus. Very educational, very rigorous, very hard. Compared notes with students in the non-Maple version... yeah, ours was way harder. But also we covered how to use the calculus in ways they'd never heard of, simply because they had to spend so much course time covering the mechanics.

      My point here would be that I think the existence of WolframAlpha could open up opportunities for an even better, and yes for you Professor Protestants harder, curriculum.

      On the other hand, this was Calc II. At some point, you would have to take Calc I and should learn the boring stuff like the integral of 1/x, and for that class Maple (or WA)would be detrimental.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
  3. Too general by dexmachina · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It depends a lot on the nature of the class, so there's no one-size-fits-all answer for when tools like graphing calculators or WA should be allowed. In first year calculus, when you're learning how to integrate, a program that can do symbolic integration isn't an appropriate tool. On the other hand, for a first class in ODEs, the integration is the least essential part of the process and so the right tools make it easier to focus on whats really important. Yes, I know WA can solve diff eq's too, but that's just an example. Just requiring that work be shown isn't always sufficient, since it's an important skill in mathematics to understand how to get a solution, even when you can't immediately see what the solution is. So I don't think it's unreasonable for graphing calculators or things like Wolfram Alpha to be disallowed for certain classes. That being said, labelling it academic misconduct is pretty unreasonable. I look at it in the same as recommended homework problems: it's just a suggestion, but come exam time it's your funeral. Back to the first year calculus example, I remember the syllabus explicitly saying that all problem sets were to be completed independently and without computer aids. No one really did that, and the TAs didn't even try to enforce it. In university, formal evaluation carries most of the weight in grading. The people who just copied off of other people or the internet had a smooth ride until the first test.

  4. Is this really a problem? by Jugalator · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Surely there must be ways to write a test for their students where they are not Internet enabled?

    Let them mess up their learning process all they want if that's what they wish. :p It's a bit of a cliche, but it's really true -- "they're only fooling themselves".

    --
    Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
  5. Re:iirc by T+Murphy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    For the people not in engineering/math/science, I don't see why they need to be deprived a calculator or similar for a calculus class. Either write problems that require the student to understand the material, or consider whether they even need calculus. I enjoyed learning it, but only a math professor has to know how to perform integration by parts by hand. If an introductory calculus course is all that is needed, concepts are more important than being able to perform the operations by hand. Business majors and the like just have to be able to see d$/dx, not freak out, and understand how to maximize $.

  6. I'm a math professor, and I don't care about Alpha by onionman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm a math prof. at a reasonably large school.

    I teach plenty of calculus.

    When I grade, I don't care about the answer. I look at the way the student solves the problem. If the setup is correct, the computations are reasonable, and the flow of the solution demonstrates that the student knows what she's doing, then I give it full credit even if the answer is wrong. I couldn't care less about careless errors (poor pun intended). I'm measuring the student's problem solving abilities, not her ability to do lots of tedious computations in a short amount of time (that's what computers are for). Likewise, if a student magically produces the correct answer without showing any work (or if the work is clearly B.S.) then I give them no credit. The answer is irrelevant, it's the process that matters.

    I am completely unconcerned about Wolfram Alpha.

    I also have a CS background, and I recognize that most CS related jobs don't require calculus. However, the whole point of taking calculus is to practice logical reasoning. A good calculus course will force you to solve lots of long complex problems, clearly express your reasoning, and maybe even do a bunch of delta-epsilon proofs. Unfortunately, many calculus courses end up being reduced to mundane computations of derivatives and integrals... those courses ARE a waste of time.

    p.s. If you're a student who actually wants to learn a subject, then go to that "rate my professor" site and look for professors who are "clear" and "hard". Take those professors. You won't learn much from an easy professor, and three years after you graduate that easy "A" will be meaningless.