Slashdot Mirror


Rhode Island Affiliates Banned From Amazon.com Sales

Rand Huck writes "Amazon.com has now added Rhode Island to its blacklist of affiliates in response to its proposed budget changes to enforce a tax on Internet sales, which includes commissions on their affiliate program by content providers based in Rhode Island. The first state to be blacklisted was North Carolina, for the same reason. If you go to a Rhode Island-based or North Carolina-based website that advertises Amazon.com goods as an affiliate, that website will no longer have the goods available because otherwise Amazon.com would be forced to pay sales tax to the State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations or the State of North Carolina. The state's rationale is, if someone clicks to buy a good from Amazon.com via a site based in Rhode Island, it's equivalent to buying a good from a brick and mortar chain store located in Rhode Island."

87 of 532 comments (clear)

  1. I fear that pretty soon... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...the only Amazon.com affiliates left will be in The Amazon.

    1. Re:I fear that pretty soon... by cayenne8 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      "...the only Amazon.com affiliates left will be in The Amazon."

      That's really no big deal for me. I pretty much ONLY buy stuff that Amazon sells itself, so I can get the 'free shipping' with orders over $25..and of course, no sales tax.

      I generally trust Amazon more than I do the small fry sites they 'affiliate' with.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    2. Re:I fear that pretty soon... by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Hawaii is close...

      It's not passed yet (but this is the best time to catch it).

      If you're in Hawaii get on the phone lines to your state senator and harass them about this.

      http://www.starbulletin.com/business/20090627_Amazon_poised_to_cut_affiliate_program_in_Hawaii.html

    3. Re:I fear that pretty soon... by DrEldarion · · Score: 2, Informative

      You're thinking of the Amazon marketplace stores.

      Amazon affiliates are entities who link to Amazon's site with a referral code and then get a commission based on that purchase. They're basically advertisers.

    4. Re:I fear that pretty soon... by geobeck · · Score: 4, Informative

      I generally trust Amazon more than I do the small fry sites they 'affiliate' with.

      What exactly do you mean? When someone clicks on one of the recommended books on my Amazon affiliate page*, they are taken to Amazon.ca where they can buy the book directly from Amazon. I don't handle any of their transactions, or ship any books; all my affiliate page does is give me a commission on any book that a visitor to my site may purchase if they access Amazon.ca through the links on my site. There's no additional 'trust' needed.

      *which I am not going to link here, because that would be affiliate link spam. My site is in my sig if anyone wants more information on responsible products.

      --
      Find environmentally and socially responsible products on http://buy-right.net
    5. Re:I fear that pretty soon... by Machtyn · · Score: 2, Informative

      Unfortunately, the "no sales tax" only works for those who don't live in a state that houses an Amazon warehouse. Fortunately, for me, the Amazon orders arrive very quickly without having to pay the premium shipping costs.

    6. Re:I fear that pretty soon... by Gallamine · · Score: 5, Informative

      >generally trust Amazon more than I do the small fry sites they 'affiliate' with.

      I think you're a bit misguided here. The "small fry sites" you're referring to are sites, like mine, that link to Amazon products in exchange for a cut from Amazon. It's huge marketing for Amazon, and a tidy revenue for me and others. But not now. I'm in NC and I got screwed. Amazon hasn't killed people *selling* products, they've just cut off people that are doing free advertising for them.

      --
      RobotBox - Robot projects from around the world
    7. Re:I fear that pretty soon... by greyhueofdoubt · · Score: 2, Informative

      >>I generally trust Amazon more than I do the small fry sites they 'affiliate' with.

      I agree. I remember the first time I unwittingly ordered 5 things from 5 different vendors. I sat there for over two weeks wondering why one package showed up two days after my order while another took 15 days. And the quick package did me no good because all the things were for one project.

      Nowadays I either order everything from Amazon proper, or I go directly to the affiliate's storefront since they probably specialize in other things that I'm looking for at the moment.

      Still, it's annoying to get a tiny box of slide covers from houston and another tiny box of slides from somewhere in New Jersey 5 days later.

      -b

      --
      No offense, but I've stopped responding to AC's.
    8. Re:I fear that pretty soon... by cayenne8 · · Score: 2, Informative
      "Fortunately, for me, the Amazon orders arrive very quickly without having to pay the premium shipping costs."

      I always get the free shipping thing myself...and deliveries don't take all 'that' long for me. I don't live in an Amazon occupied state.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    9. Re:I fear that pretty soon... by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 2, Informative

      MOD PARENT DOWN. God, how the hell did this get so high? Read all the other replies, this is about Affiliates and not the Market place.

    10. Re:I fear that pretty soon... by lgw · · Score: 3, Informative

      You mean "it's easy to not pay sales tax and get away with it".

      You are required to pay the sales tax to the local government where you live.

      Actually, it's unconstitutional for any state to charge sales tax on goods bought from another state. What you're describing is the "use tax" that many states have as a "work-around". Sadly, the days when people cared about the constitution seem to be behind us.

      The only reason that online retailers don't charge you is because they would need to know and keep up with the tax laws of hundreds or thousands of locations, and set up payments to them. It would be prohibitively complicated.

      Actually, that's trivial - you just buy software that does that for you. Plenty of "whole store" turnkey computer systems manage this, both the local sales tax and the local income tax by store address (you'd think it would be by ZIP code, but Philly has tax districts smaller than ZIP codes).

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  2. Inconsistent behavior by edwardd · · Score: 3, Informative

    These are not the only states to impose this type of tax. NY requires collection of sales tax, but Amazon isn't shutting out those affiliates. If they want to make a stand, they should at least be consistent about it.

    1. Re:Inconsistent behavior by bytethese · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Probably because NY is a bigger state and threatening moves such as this will have a financial impact on those smaller states thereby giving Amazon a perceived upper hand on what they want?

    2. Re:Inconsistent behavior by Cidolfas · · Score: 5, Informative

      I thought they were being consistent. The NY law, which doesn't get your affiliates kicked out, taxes purchases made by residents of NY. The new laws that are getting affiliates banned tax purchases made from affiliates registered in those states.

      So if you lived in NY and you wanted to buy something from an online affiliate located in RI, you would have to pay tax in both NY and RI.

      And that's the problem with it. The Commerce Clause was put in the constitution to prevent things like this double-taxing for interstate commerce. If it's not as popular in some states to tax purchases made by residents, then they're going to try to get tax money from outside the state. It shouldn't hold up to constitutional standards on the issue, but that doesn't mean it will be overturned if challenged.

      --
      I am become /dev/null, destroyer of data.
    3. Re:Inconsistent behavior by alen · · Score: 2, Interesting

      NY's AG started this whole thing and I think it's still being litigated. If Amazon stops doing business with NY affiliates then it may be seen as evidence of admission of guilt or whatever and NY's AG wins. If they continue to litigate and win they can then go back and start up their other affiliates

  3. Catalogs by Hadlock · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is difficult, because an internet retailer is a lot like a catalog retailer, who might have 80% of their business out of state and isn't set up to take 50 states' differing tax rates and does not have the accounting muscle to pay 50 different state taxes each quarter. I think that's the main problem. And then you have the issue of ship to in one state (NC for example) and bill to (non-taxable like Oregon) etc etc. It creates a lot of headaches. Catalogs typically only pay/charge sales taxes for the state their accounting division is in. Multiply this by millions and millions of customers and you can see why Amazon would oppose this merely on the accounting issue. Most accounting software simply isn't set up for taxation in all 50 states, especially automatically.

    --
    moox. for a new generation.
    1. Re:Catalogs by tomhudson · · Score: 3, Insightful

      and does not have the accounting muscle to pay 50 different state taxes each quarter. I think that's the main problem

      Doesn't have the accounting muscle? Why can't they use their cloud computing cluster?

      The "acounting muscle" argument is pure BS - they have enough accounting and computing horsepower to run the rest of their business ... and they do a lot of calculations for every shaopping cart on every page refresh. Since they CAN cut off specific states, and they also calculate shipping by state, they can certainly do sales tax by state. They're just doing this to get their affiliates to lobby for them.

    2. Re:Catalogs by sadler121 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is where the Federal Government actually has the authority per the Constitution to step in and regulate interstate commerce. Congress needs to dictate ONE tax rate for all Internet purchases.

    3. Re:Catalogs by teg · · Score: 2, Interesting

      For Amazon, this is certainly not about complexity. It's about the sales tax - it will no longer have a "discount" compared to local brick and mortar stores, by avoiding this extra cost that they have to pay. Thus, it will either lose some of its edge - or reduce its profits.

    4. Re:Catalogs by ptbarnett · · Score: 4, Informative

      Since they CAN cut off specific states, and they also calculate shipping by state, they can certainly do sales tax by state.

      It's not that simple.

      You can't just assess sales tax according to the destination state. In many states, there are local taxes as well, and it varies based on the locality. A merchant calculates sales tax based on the MERCHANT's location, and the various taxing authorities make sure he/she knows what should be collected.

      The shipping companies provide rate tables based on ZIP code, and it's a simple lookup. But, you can't even use ZIP codes to determine tax rates, because ZIP code boundaries don't necessary follow political boundaries.

    5. Re:Catalogs by Thaelon · · Score: 2, Informative

      And that tax rate should be 0.00%.

      Not just because I'm greedy either. Lower prices due to not having to maintain a brick and mortar store are the only things that allow online stores to compete against local stores. Because if you buy it locally you get the product instantly. And they have to be sufficiently lower including shipping costs to beat out brick and mortar stores. If you take away a huge portion of their tax advantage, they start to become tremendously less profitable, and thus less viable. Without this advantage brick and mortar stores don't have much competition, and thus start charging more because they can. And you lose.

      --

      Question everything

    6. Re:Catalogs by NineNine · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Lower prices due to not having to maintain a brick and mortar store are the only things that allow online stores to compete against local stores."

      The word "only" isn't used correctly in this situation. There's no "only" about it. The overhead of having a brick and mortar store is MASSIVE. Employees, rent, power, upfit, etc. It's MASSIVE. All they need is some crappy warehouse somewhere cheap. There's a huge difference, which enables them to be able to eat the shipping on most items. There's no comparison between a warehouse and a few computers and a real store.

    7. Re:Catalogs by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The consumer is certainly governed by the laws of the state of their residence, and is required to pay consumption taxes on all purchases (a sales tax IS a consumption tax). When you buy something out-of-state,you're supposed to pay your local sales tax, and apply for a reimbursement from the originating state. Small purchases have been ignored, but try buying a new boat or car in one state and taking delivery in another - when you go to register the vehicle, you'll be required to pay the sales tax. The only way around that is to plate it in the original state, then bring it into the destination state as a used vehicle - and you'll still get dinged in many places.

      Amazon is helping them avoid their legal obligations. I'm surprised the various states don't simply file suit under RICO - just watch the affiliates run like rats when that happens. At that point, it isn't about applying local laws to out-of-state businesses, but applying local laws to local business transaction, and an out-of-state business profiting by enabling locals to break those laws.

      Another partial solution would be to go to a VAT-base tax system, but that makes too much sense for it to happen.

  4. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by guruevi · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why would I or Amazon have to pay taxes twice or more for something? First Amazon would need to pay taxes at whatever locale they're at, then I would need to pay taxes on the same product in my home state, then also every state it goes through as it is getting shipped from Florida to Rhode Island?

    There is a reason intra-state purchases are not taxed. Read the constitution or so, you know the part where it says: The Congress shall have power . . . To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  5. Re:Every state needs to step up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I can't speak for anyone else, but providing yet another source of revenue for government is the last thing I want. The US government already spends more than any other government in the world, and (surprise) the result isn't even close to ideal.

    No, what the US government needs is less spending -- or even a change in where the money goes -- certainly not more revenue.

  6. Re:Every state needs to step up. by blueskies · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Amazon is taxed. They aren't getting a free ride. Everyone is already required to pay a sales tax on the items they buy out of state anyway. In your state tax filing it is usually listed under Use tax.

    So amazon isn't going to pay any more in tax, the people that are evading taxes would be paying for the tax.

  7. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by sopssa · · Score: 2, Informative

    I doubt its amazon links you see spammed, they're pretty strict about bad practices. If you see such for amazon links, you can report it and they will look into it (and disable the affiliates account without payment if he has violated terms of services)

    The ones you see spammed are usually something shitty like "get 1000's of your friends click this link and earn $0.001 per click!"

  8. The trucks that deliver the products pay taxes. by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm sure the gasoline and other annual taxes to deliver the products to the customer cover the wear and tear on the roads.

    Amazon is not using sewer, electrical, police or road services locally as brick and morter store would.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  9. Re:Every state needs to step up. by doomicon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How are they not taxed like everybody else? As with catalog ordering, they aren't responsible for state sales tax.

    They pay corporate taxes, no free ride there.

    Am I missing something?

    --

    Awesome!
  10. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by noidentity · · Score: 5, Funny

    Why would I or Amazon have to pay taxes twice or more for something?

    Do you know how much superhighways take to maintain? The Internet is the information superhighway, so the taxes go to pay for travel on it. When you drive to Amazon, you're putting wear on the superhighways of the state Amazon is based in, and then Amazon has to drive your order to the affiliate, which puts wear on the superhighways to the affiliate's state. That's a lot of virtual wear!

  11. Tax 'em! by NineNine · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I run a brick and mortar store AND an online store. No more than 5 minutes ago I was talking to a customer in the store, and she was asking what the sales tax was to see if she could buy the product cheaper online. That's ridiculous. People are short sighted and selfish. If this continues, we will have very little retail anywhere in the country in a few years, because everybody will be trying to avoid the sales tax. The gov't needs to close this huge loophole. Amazon needs to compete on a level playing field with other retailers. I know that I'd much rather add a bit of code to my web site to collect sales tax correctly all over the country than to have people avoid my brick and mortar store to try to shave a few pennies off elsewhere. I support online retailers having to collect sales tax.

    1. Re:Tax 'em! by salesgeek · · Score: 4, Informative

      People are short sighted and selfish. If this continues, we will have very little retail anywhere in the country in a few years, because everybody will be trying to avoid the sales tax.

      Mail order has *always been there* and always presented the option of letting people purchase out of state and duck paying sales tax. If your state has a confiscatory sales tax rate that makes mail order 7-10% less expensive, then move your business somewhere else or let your legislators know that sales tax is ruining your business.

      Oh, and it's not a loop hole. It's called the commerce clause of the US Constitution. It protects your business from being subject to the laws of all 50 US states as well as preventing states from creating tarriffs and anti-competitive laws to keep out of state competitors like you out of the market.

      --
      -- $G
  12. Re:Every state needs to step up. by tibman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They DO get taxed, their company HQ has a physical location and they MUST pay business taxes. Boeing and Nvidia pay LESS taxes than Amazon.com does.

    --
    http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
  13. What BS their logic is by Iphtashu+Fitz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm in Massachusetts. If I happen to visit the website of the Trinity Repertory Theater (www.trinityrep.com), a theater located in Providence, RI, then my internet traffic doesn't even pass through Rhode Island, much less end in Rhode Island. Their website is hosted by a low-cost provider out in California. The only tie to Rhode Island is that the website was created by an organization in Rhode Island. If I visit that website I don't "visit" Rhode Island. So why should Rhode Island have ANY claim on anything I might purchase from an affiliate program hosted on that site? I'm visiting a website hosted in California and if they were an Amazon affiliate then that would involve a company located in Washington. RI doesn't have any valid claim to tax such a transaction.

    By their own logic, I'm buying goods from a brick & mortar store in California (or more appropriately Seattle), NOT Rhode Island. If anything, the company in RI is simply acting as an advertising agency. They designed an advertisement (the website) that's on display in California for a company that actually does business in Washington.

  14. Re:Every state needs to step up. by RunsWithMatches · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A much better solution then, would be to end the sales tax in the various states to promote more competition with the internet retailers. I realize that taxes are a necessary evil, but let us not spread that evil any further that it has already gone. Every time the government sucks a penny out of the economy we are all the worse for it.

  15. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by tomhudson · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The local state has the right to tax their residents out-of-state purchases. When you buy something in another state, you're supposed to pay your local sales taxes, and then file for a reimbursement from the state you paid the original tax to - but it's not enforced. Now the individual states ARE saying - hey, here's a way we CAN enforce it.

  16. That is a VERY good idea! by Xaedalus · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think that would work out very well: Congress dictates ONE tax for the internet in terms of sales tax. It's ludicrous to force anyone (even if they do have the resources) to have to divert resources to figure out fifty different sales taxes. Also, there is the risk of being double-taxed at stake (Company A pays sales tax wherever its accounting division is located, and passes it on to customer, and then customer has to pay sales tax again of his/her home state).

    --
    Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
    1. Re:That is a VERY good idea! by Hadlock · · Score: 4, Informative

      The State of South Dakota charges a different rate per city. PER CITY. Each city's rate ranges from 2-6% if I recall correctly. Also some states (NJ, Indiana in 2007) change their rate on occasion. And then dealing with non-profit (non-taxable) institutions? That means waiting for an official tax exemption certificate, of which every state has different rules. Schools and Non Profits buy a lot of junk. A Lot. You have no idea how much man power it takes to explain why, to Betty at Podunk Baptist Church, Rural, IL - she needs to find, fill out and fax/mail a tax exemption certificate before you can process her order. And then deal with her angry pastor three months later when their order never arrives because she didn't/forgot to/sent the wrong form. This is a huge, huge bitch to deal with for companies beyond Amazon.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    2. Re:That is a VERY good idea! by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're telling me that a small child could write a look up table for the sales tax in every zip code in the U.S., including a system to update it every time one of those places changes their rate? Oh yeah, it also has to adjust for WHAT is taxable in each of those zip codes.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    3. Re:That is a VERY good idea! by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 3, Informative

      Well, there's 50 state sales tax rates, plus thousands of county and tens if not hundreds of thousands of city sales tax rates. Plus special districts. And not all of them line up on ZIP code boundaries, in many places part of a ZIP code's inside a city (subject to city sales tax) and part is outside (exempt from city sales tax). And then you have the fun of exactly what items are taxable (and it's not binary, in many places items are classified differently by the different taxing authorities so just because an item's subject to state sales tax doesn't mean it's neccesarily subject to city sales tax). And those rules change, so just because the rules say one thing this week doesn't mean they'll say the same thing next week.

      So how does a business get an authoritative answer (one it can rely on in a court of law) for any arbitrary address? And how does it get notified by all those taxing authorities when the rules it needs to follow change? One of the principles of law is that the people who have to obey the law must be able to know what they need to do to obey it, and while I see all these states making lots of noise about businesses being obligated to follow the law I don't see them setting anything up to tell those businesses what the law actually says. And it's the responsibility of the goverment involved to tell the businesses what the law requires, it's not the business's responsibility to guess at it.

  17. Out of state phone orders by Maltese+Falcon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    By the very same reasoning they use for Amazon, if anyone goes to a phone located in Rhode Island and makes a purchase of anything, it's the same as going to a brick and mortar of that shop in the state and is also subject to equivalent taxes. Even ordering by US mail out of a catalog would reason out to the same logic (providing the catalog and/or mailbox is physically located in R.I.). Amazon might even be able to use that to force R.I. to either include phone orders across the board or drop the bill/law.

  18. If they don't use local resources why should they by Shivetya · · Score: 4, Insightful

    pay taxes?

    Are internet retailers using your sewer? You schools? Your police?

    Then why should people living in another state fund yours?

    Tax them where they reside.

    Whats next? Taxing people for giving gifts to people in higher tax states? Hell, lets tax people's medical benefits - oops.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  19. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Let them pay their fair share of taxes,

    They already do, considering that they're consuming approximately 0% of the state's resources.

    --
    Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  20. Sale origin difficult to pinpoint by bsandersen · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The problem with this story is that it isn't clear where the sale has taken place. I click a button in Massachusetts, paid for the object with money from a Connecticut bank, the company hosting the web site is in New York, the headquarters of the company is in Arkansas, the shipment is made from New Hampshire, my mom receive the materials in Illinois (I dropped shipped her a gift). Where was the sale? I don't know what the right answer is... but I'm certain that state legislatures rushing to get something passed will end up making a mess bigger than the one they find themselves in now. I don't blame Amazon for pushing back. If I were Amazon management I'd be doing the same thing.

    1. Re:Sale origin difficult to pinpoint by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem with this story is that it isn't clear where the sale has taken place.

      Fortunately there is a very large body of law (mail order) which already covers this topic.

      The test for sales tax isn't where the sale takes place, it's whether the seller has a business presence in the state the goods are shipped to.

      Rhode Island is claiming these Amazon affiliates cause Amazon to have a presence in Rhode Island.

  21. Re:Every state needs to step up. by Darkness404 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No governments only diverse taxes when they have helped for example you can charge sales tax on some things because you (presumably) drove on government roads to get there. On the other hand, when I order something online especially virtual goods like a song, e-book or movie what did the government do to deserve the tax? Nothing. Therefore they should not be taxed.

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
  22. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by Weedhopper · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You really want to go down that line of reasoning?

    The customer pays for his/her bandwidth.

    FedEx and UPS pay their taxes for road use(fuel).

    Et al, etc.

  23. Re:Every state needs to step up. by ScoLgo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is absolutely correct! In fact, you are supposed to report and pay use tax on everything you purchase - even used stuff from garage sales, (not that anyone does).

    --
    "Michael, I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing - and it was everything that I thought it could be."
  24. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by tmosley · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Sure, but you can always pay more for roads.

    Not that they get any better when you do that. You can just pay more for them. It helps you get re-elected. What, you're not in Congress? Oh, well disregard everything I just said...

    LOOK, SEX SCANDALS!

  25. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by salesgeek · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No, this is no more than another reach where states are trying to end run the commerce clause which has prevented them from successfully taxing out of state mail order purchases. This one is especially stupid because they are saying "because Amazon does business with contractors in our state, they have to act as a tax collection agent for us." This is a change in two ways:

    * The state is extending the definition of "nexus" to include the use of contractors. Historically, a nexus includes employees and/or property.
    * The state is basically telling mail order merchants to not spend a dime in the state or you have to become a tax collection agent for the state.

    Basically, N. Carolina and Rhode Island are shooting themselves in the head and preventing mail order operations from using any in-state contractors to do things like print catalogs, mail catalogs, provide call center services, freight forwarding, delivery services and so on. In other words, no jobs for your state from any mail order company.

    This is why there is a commerce clause in the constitution - to prevent one state from taking actions that unfairly burden a business or citizen in another state. Why should I care what sales tax is in California? My business is in Indiana. Eventually this will go to the supreme court and get tossed just like every other attempt by one state to make businesses in another state collect taxes for them. This has been building up for a while and we're due for another 8-1 decision in favor of the Federal Government having EXCLUSIVE jurisdiction over interstate commerce.

    --
    -- $G
  26. Re:If they don't use local resources why should th by tmosley · · Score: 2, Funny

    Also, I want to tax the taxes that are being taxed on those goods running through my state.

  27. Amazon is basically screaming by C_Kode · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Amazon is basically screaming: "Taxation Without Representation" and taking a stand against what it believes is unconstitutional taxation. (ie being taxed by a foreign (different state) government) This is exactly what happen in the mid-late 1700s and the reason the US is it's own country rather than part of the United Kingdom.

    I completely agree with Amazon. I happen to have an Amazon shop (I'm not located in either of those states) I know it screws the webstore owner, but Amazon is doing the right thing and THEY need to stand up to their own state's goverment and let them know that they are hurting their own people by being greeding and trying to tax people that don't even live in their state.

    1. Re:Amazon is basically screaming by JPLemme · · Score: 3, Interesting

      For the zillionth time, RHODE ISLAND IS TRYING TO COLLECT TAX FROM RHODE ISLANDERS! It has nothing to do with out-of-state anything. RI is trying to force amazon to collect RI sales tax from RI residents (or at least people with RI shipping addresses) by claiming that amazon has affiliates based in RI, and thus has a physical presence just like Walmart or Target.

  28. this sounds self defeating by Sir_Real · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So the store doesn't get a sale, doesn't pay the stakeholder, who was presumably going to spend money in the state on taxable goods and services. The state still loses. The original sale doesn't generate revenue and the seller won't be purchasing anything that generates tax revenue with the proceeds of the sale that didn't happen. Sorry states, there will always be at least one state that will take advantage of this and host amazon friendly affiliate websites. This is kinda like how you can incorporate an LLC in any state you have an "agent" in (100 bucks a year gets you agent representation in any state) but no one in their right minds incorporates an LLC outside of Nevada or Delaware because of the incredibly low taxes and business friendly body of case law they've produced. You still have to pay personal income tax in the state you perform work but you get a credit for taxes you pay to other states for your state of residence taxes.

  29. Re:Every state needs to step up. by salesgeek · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No. Amazon is simply not collecting sales tax for states they are not located in. Why should Amazon (an out of state company) have to pay to do the job of the RI Department of Revenue? Since when did they delete the commerce clause from the constitution?

    --
    -- $G
  30. Re:States don't get it. by salesgeek · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Amazon is trying their best to avoid having to collect sales tax (and compete on a level playing field).

    Wrong. RI and NC are trying to expand the definition of nexus to force mail order companies not located in their state to collect sales tax from citizens in RI and NC.

    At present the playing field is level. Businesses outside RI and NC don't have to collect RI and NC sales tax, and business inside RI and NC don't have to collect tax for the rest of the country. That's pretty fair.

    --
    -- $G
  31. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by puff3456 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They have to do this because ... California can't raise taxes enough, thanks to Proposition 13.

    And I suppose the person with 50k in credit card debt and a house in foreclosure is also in that situation because they can't raise enough income?

    I'm sure it has nothing to do with the million dollar house and their insatiable desire for new goods. A good rule of thumb for people (and states for this matter) in debt is to first create a budget that reduces spending below ones income. Not to figure out a way to make more money. This is not rocket science.

  32. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by clintp · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Or they could just cut back. If you can't afford it, don't buy it. This is just as important for States as individuals.

    --
    Get off my lawn.
  33. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by Arthur+Grumbine · · Score: 4, Funny

    Will some of the sales tax go towards purchasing a clue/sense-of-humor for certain, sadly bereft individuals?

    --
    Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure everything I just said is completely wrong.
  34. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by GigG · · Score: 4, Informative

    Your entire post is just wrong. First, Amazon dosn't pay sales tax on items you buy from them in thier home state unless it is a state where they have a nexus. Second, if your home state has a Sales Tax it most likly has a Use Tax and you are supposed to pay that tax on items you buy from out of state that haven't had sales tax paid on them in the other state and sometimes even if it has. This has NOTHING to do with the Commerce clause of the US Constitution.

    --
    Is buying a Harley Davidson as your first motorcycle since you were 16 at age 49 a midlife crisis issue?
  35. Re:taxes by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What is taxed twice is your return. Your tax return for paying to much in taxes is counted as income and taxed the following year. Even though those monies were taxes collected.

    You have the world's crappiest accountant.

    --
    Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  36. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    "The accumulated deficit will be between $20 Trillion and $25 Trillion by 2016 - everyone agrees it's not sustainable, and that taxes will have to rise."

    Well, they could stop spending. They could start to consider that this massive govt. run healthcare (regardless of your views on it) is something we absolutely cannot afford right now. They could stop with the pork in bills.

    Why can't the govt. do what a 'sane' normal household does when it is having budget problems. The first thing is to cut spending!!

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  37. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by pilgrim23 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Taxes are never levied for the benefit of the taxed. I live in Oregon (NO Sales Tax!) so I REFUSE to pay yours. I never voted for it (Taxation without representation ring a bell?) and my states has voted NO on sales tax NINE TIMES. Fix your deficit the way all of us do: Spend less. Too many state wastrels on the payroll? fire a few.

    --
    - Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
  38. It's much uglier than that by Fencepost · · Score: 3, Informative

    You can't calculate tax just by zip code - if you could, it'd be simple. You have to account for states, counties and municipalities, and zip codes don't line up completely with at least the last two. Zip+4 might, but that in itself is a nightmare (Zip+4 can be down to 10 or fewer individual addresses).

    A couple of examples: I live in a suburb of Chicago that gets much of its revenue from sales taxes on malls, etc. within the city limits. Its tax rate is different from the next municipality over, but my zip code overlaps that suburb. Another example: my office is in a town that straddles the border between Cook County, IL and Lake County, IL. The Zip code at my office (in Cook) and at the hospital where I have customers (in Lake) are the same, but the tax rates differ by 3% (Cook has among the highest sales taxes in the nation, if not the highest).

    --
    fencepost
    just a little off
  39. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why would I or Amazon have to pay taxes twice or more for something? First Amazon would need to pay taxes at whatever locale they're at, then I would need to pay taxes on the same product in my home state, then also every state it goes through as it is getting shipped from Florida to Rhode Island?

    You wouldn't. Amazon doesn't pay (sales) taxes at whatever locale they are at. And no state can charge a tax for shipping goods through the state (as mentioned in your Constitution excerpt), except as a fee for using the road system. That only leaves the final point of sale.

    Why should ordering something over the internet and having it delivered to your door result in you paying less sales tax?

    There is a reason intra-state purchases are not taxed. Read the constitution or so, you know the part where it says: The Congress shall have power . . . To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes

    First, the word you are looking for is interstate. Intrastate purchases are taxed. Secondly, the interstate aspect of the transaction is not being taxed, rather it's the purchase in Rhode Island of a good that is.

    I fail to see the distinction between paying sales tax on goods purchased at Amazon and goods purchased in a local Walmart (when discussing non-Washington/Arkansas residents). In either case you're purchasing an item in, e.g., RI and accepting delivery there. The actual charges are applied from a credit card company in Deleware to an account, which you will then pay later with a check drawn on some other corporation. Why should the Internet be magical?

    --
    Your ad here. Ask me how!
  40. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by russotto · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you buy something out of state, you're supposed to pay the sales tax to your local state and then apply for a reimbursement from the state you paid the original tax in.

    Wrong, as with most of the rest of your post. There is no such "reimbursement". If a resident of Maryland physically goes to Pennsylvania and buys something, the sales tax on the transaction is owed to Pennsylvania. There is no reimbursement, even if Maryland also demands a "use tax" on the item.

    The Supreme Court decided some time ago (in a mail order case, not an Internet case) that companies could not be required to collect sales taxes for states in which they did not have a "nexus". It's not a matter of a "tax holiday" or of Congress sitting on their behind; Congress has no obligation to act for the states in this matter. It's not a matter of enforcing state law. It's a matter of states trying to widen the definition of that "nexus" beyond what the courts have accepted in the past. It probably won't work, but Amazon isn't willing to get into a court battle over it. Newegg, on the other hand, after initially collecting New York tax, ceased doing so after consulting their lawyers. NY has apparently not taken them up on the challenge.

  41. Re:Absolutely not by geminidomino · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Equally bullshit is your state trying to tax me for a purchase when I've never set foot in it.

  42. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why would I or Amazon have to pay taxes twice or more for something? First Amazon would need to pay taxes at whatever locale they're at, then I would need to pay taxes on the same product in my home state, then also every state it goes through as it is getting shipped from Florida to Rhode Island?

    Please understand how sales taxes work before you submit nonsense like that.

    I'm not going to explain the whole system, but suffice it to say that if I pay sales tax in one jurisdiction, then that tax paid is a credit to my tax due in another jurisdiction. This is Amazon's biggest objection -- the nightmare of calculating taxes paid and taxes due.

    If I'm an RI retailer, and I buy directly from Amazon (as a wholesaler to me), I charge sales tax to my customers in RI. Then when I have to pay the sales tax to RI, I deduct what I have paid to Amazon as sales tax on my purchases from them. However, since Amazon has no nexus in RI, I'm not paying any tax to them.

    What the new tax structure is saying is that retailers shouldn't be able to escape the tax requirement by only being a referrer to Amazon. So sales taxes are due to RI.

    In essence, RI & NC are saying that the referrers are retail outlets, not referrers.

    This does not raise any specter of double taxation or worse. It's just a battle over whether Amazon referrers are retailers or not.

    --
    "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  43. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2, Informative

    Proposition 13 isn't the problem, it really isn't. The problem is the state legislature which continues to add socialist benefits to socialist benefits.

    The Political Beast eats its own, creates an unsustainable welfare state, paid for by exorbitant taxes. We currently have Sales taxes fast approaching 10%, chasing the merchants from the state. Brick and Mortar shops cannot compete with Amazon's sales tax free setup, even if the prices are the same, and you include shipping!

    We wouldn't be in this problem if the legislature (Democratic LOCKED)got off its fat ass and started to CUT spending on programs that do nothing but ensure voters vote for (D) candidates.

    Oh, but that is "taking away from the poor", and we can't do that! Well, with that attitude, eventually everyone left in the state will be "poor" with nobody left able to pay the taxes needed to support them.

    Hell, I'd move if I could afford it, and I might not be able to afford NOT to shortly.

    How is it, that the solution that most people think of first is "More Taxes" rather than "cut spending" ??? When is it ENOUGH????

    And lets not "fix" healthcare until they can fix the economy (HAHHAHA).

    --
    Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
  44. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by Weeksauce · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Amazon runs a business, not a charity. It's not about the good of the state and it is not their job to try to level the playing field, they're job is to make as much money as possible for the shareholders. Additionally, they have the RIGHT to NOT do business as they please. As far as I'm concerned R.I. can tax away, but don't expect people to sit by idle while they do it...

    --
    An inventor is a man who asks 'Why?' of the universe and lets nothing stand between the answer and his mind.
  45. old world, meet new world by Tom · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's not that they're being unreasonable, per se. It's that they're applying and old model to a new technology. It's a bit like trying to do rocket science with the math available to Aristotle.

    Physical location matters little on the Internet. But our countries and states are defined by physical location. So it's not a trivial problem, but applying solutions that simply don't fit will not solve anything.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  46. Re:Every state needs to step up. by Beer_Smurf · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Once wealthy individuals pay their fair share of taxes, then we can talk about eliminating some business taxes."
    You mean once ten percent of the population no longer has to pay ninety percent of the taxes?
    You mean when fifty percent of the population finally pay more than zero net tax?
    You mean when the vast majority stop getting more benefits than they are paying for then maybe we can spend less?
    Yes that sounds great.

  47. Every breath you take... by mapkinase · · Score: 3, Funny

    Every breath you take
    Every move you make
    Every click you make
    Every step you take
    I'll be taxing you

    Every single day
    Every word you say
    Every game you play
    Every night you stay
    I'll be taxing you

    Oh, cant you see
    You belong to me
    How my poor RIDT aches
    With every step you take

    --
    I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
  48. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by McBeer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This will also affect the large number of non-spam affiliate marketers. For instance the site in my sig. I have made a strong effort to make it a value added service and not just spam. (Washington/Utah have the most hikes listed so far)

    --
    Hikery.net - The best hiking site ever. Made by yours truly.
  49. is our education system really this bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It truly amazes me how few people understand even basic economics.

    Amazon does not have brick and mortar stores. So it's not the same. In fact, when the tax laws where written that apply to "mail-order" they understood this basic concept. Based on those laws you only have to pay sales tax if the company you're ordering from has stores(brick and mortar) in your county.

    Facts: Amazon pays taxes. They pay taxes on their employees, properties, income, purchases, etc. The shipping companies also pay taxes. In order to pay all of these taxes the price of their products and services get marked up.
    So, when you order an item from Amazon, a surprising amount of what you're really paying for is indirect tax. Including local taxes paid by the shipping company.

    The gross tax lean across the US is over 50%. It's insane. Anyone who agrees that there should be any new and/or more taxation is a complete and utter moron. More taxation increases the cost of living, which increases poverty, which increases crime rates, which has the end effect of idiot politicians stating that we need more tax. It's a corrupt cycle that killing this country and needs to end.

  50. Re:Every state needs to step up. by tibman · · Score: 2, Informative

    Found an article about companies and taxes.. it was one of the sources in the Amazon.com WP article i think.

    Nvidia at 2.2% tax: http://images.businessweek.com/ss/09/04/0423_corporate_taxes/22.htm

    Boeing at 3.2% : http://images.businessweek.com/ss/09/04/0423_corporate_taxes/18.htm

    Amazon.com at 4.1% : http://images.businessweek.com/ss/09/04/0423_corporate_taxes/15.htm

    --
    http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
  51. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by cdhgee · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You already pay a tax to maintain the information superhighway. It's called your monthly cable or DSL bill. Neither individual states nor the federal government actually have any cost incurred in maintaining any part of the internet - it's all done by private companies which are paid for their efforts. You pay your ISP, they pay their ISP, and so on.

  52. Re:tax it back to consumer by taustin · · Score: 2, Informative

    Of course it's legal. It's called "collecting sales tax," and it's legal everywhere in the US for a retailer to do so.

    And let's not call it anything else, because we do not want to confuse the issue.

  53. Re:Every state needs to step up. by jenn_13 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That would mess up the plan of keeping a majority of the votes^H^H^H^H^Hpeople dependent on the government...

  54. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by Stormwatch · · Score: 2, Funny

    Ahh, I see, a shotgun approach to tax collection.

    Just imagined what that'd be: a tax collector approaches, I grab my shotgun. Sounds fun!

  55. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by cayenne8 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    "So why are we already spending tons on health care? he average is at 4K per american right now. Higher than the supposedly expensive Canadian healthcare (which is at around 3K a person). You can't cut it both ways. You either accept that those with no insurance will be turn away and left to fend for them selves or you give basic coverage and reduce the paperwork and control the price inflation of health care."

    Well, from everything I'm seeing and hearing now...this current govt. healthcare thing will cost aobut $1Trillion additional money, and still leave about 35 million people uncovered.

    How about just starting with regulating that insurance companies can't deny you for pre-existing conditions. How about broadening the HSA (Health Savings Account) to be more flexible and allow more citizens to save MORE of their own money pre-tax for their routine health needs, and only need insurance for catastrophic needs?

    I did that for awhile and it was great. Why should people not budget for routine health needs like they budget for other things in life (food, shelter, etc)? Hell, when I was doing that and told Dr. and labs I had work (even an MRI) I was paying on my own, they gave me at least a 15% discount right on the spot.

    I found that I could shop around for Dr. and what all for best price and service. That puts true competition back into the system...that would lower costs, it also cuts out the bean counters and other middlemen.

    Trouble is...that wouldn't allow the govt. to have a heavy hand in the midst of it all, and with the current govt...that isn't a goal of their apparently.

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  56. Hawaii now banned also by SignalFreq · · Score: 2, Informative

    Hawaii is now banned also.

  57. Re:North Carolina and Rhode Island, but not New Yo by weiserfireman · · Score: 2, Informative

    Amazon started litigation to fight the New York tax that is ongoing. By refusing to do business there, they would lose the legal case because they would be admitting the tax is legal.

    They are taking the position they have in other States, partly because the States are smaller, and partly because they would be forced into more litigation over the same issues they are fighting in New York. I would bet their lawyers believe they will eventually win in SCOTUS and then they will restore their old practices.

    But, in March of this year, SCOTUS refused to hear a case from New Mexico involving Dell. The New Mexico Court of Appeals ruled in that case that Dell's use of contractors to provide Warranty Support was enough of a nexus to require Dell to collect New Mexico Sales Tax.

  58. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by kalel666 · · Score: 3, Informative

    And my infrastructure pays for parks I enjoy, roads I use, schools which educate the people around me so that they don't all turn to street crime, police to deal with the ones who do, etc. Taxes buy me civilization.

    I don't believe that is true, at least not according to this:

    In 1984, the Grace Commission was formed by President Reagan to examine where tax revenues disappear to inside the great government money maw. The commission reported that none of the money collected by income taxes paid for services - all income-tax revenue serviced the national debt. The commission said that one third of income taxes,

            . . . is consumed by waste and inefficiency in the Federal Government as we identified in our survey. Another one-third of all their taxes escapes collection from others as the underground economy blossoms in direct proportion to tax increases and places even more pressure on law abiding taxpayers, promoting still more underground economy - a vicious cycle that must be broken.

            With two-thirds of everyone's personal income taxes wasted or not collected, 100 percent of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the Federal debt and by Federal Government contributions to transfer payments. In other words, all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services which taxpayers expect from their Government.

    http://senseofevents.blogspot.com/2009/06/duty-of-wealthy-is-to-be-robbed-by.html

    Granted, its a 25 year old study, but I don't imagine the situation has improved.

    --
    I HAVE CUBIC WISDOM THAT TRANSCENDS AND CONTRADICTS ONE DAY GODS
  59. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by lgw · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What nonsense. You will never be foreclosed on if you're making your mortgage payments. What ever gave you the idea that a house could be forclosed because it's theoretical resale value fell?

    There is *no overlap* between "living frugally" and "house you can't afford". House prices here are stupid so I *rent*. Fuck all the assholes too proud to rent.

    The only possible reasons for forclosure are "irresponsible living" and "two disasters" (merely losing your job or unexpeced medical expenses are no excuse, only both at the same time). BTW, I knew the housing bubble would pop. Everyone rational who had bothered to compare house prices to historical trends knew the housing bubble would pop. Only people with a near-religious belief that "house prices only go up" were blind to the obvious.

    Nothing but pathetic excuses for irresponsible lifestyles.

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  60. Re:Hopefully it will cut down on affiliate-link sp by Grishnakh · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Then the government needs to fix its tax structure, not try to charge us more sales tax.

    It's simple: fuel tax pays for roads. If it's not enough, then raise the fuel tax. Instead of hobbling the economy by taxing everyone for purchases, it would make a lot more sense to tax road users for their use of the road, and let that cost be passed on as appropriate (i.e., someone shipping lots of heavy stuff will be forced to raise prices, whereas someone selling digital goods won't).

  61. income and sales taxes by falconwolf · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I believe all sales taxes should be abolished in favor or progressive income taxes

    And I believe just the opposite. The federal income tax should be abolished, then the size of the federal government cut back to it's Constitutional limits. Once that's done if user fees aren't enough them have a federal sales tax. People should not be taxed for their hard work, just for what they buy and or use and the pollution they create.

    Amazon should charge sales tax on those states that pass these laws.

    Why should Amazon or any other business pay sales tax to a state they do not operate in? They shouldn't period!!!

    The fight is between the citizens of those states and their publicly elected governments, not between Amazon and the government.

    This is as it should be between Amazon and those states who would require Amazon to collect taxes for goods sold to residents of those states. Those states are demanding Amazon spent more money to collect and distribute taxes. And the US Supreme Court has already told states they could not do that to a business that was not located in those states that want collect sales taxes from businesses that are not located in the state.

    This has everything to do with the commerce clause.

    That's right, these states are trying to get around the commerce clause of the Constitution of the USA. And they should not be allowed to. Now if the federal government had stayed within the limits put on it by the Constitution or is forced to then it got rid of or lowered income taxes then states could raise their own taxes to pay their own needs.

    Falcon