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RAID Trust Issues — Windows Or a Cheap Controller?
NicApicella writes "My new system has two sparklin' SATA drives which I would like to mirror. After having been burned by a not-so-cheap, dedicated RAID controller, I have been pointed to software RAID solutions. I now stand in front of two choices for setting up my RAID: a Windows 7 RC software RAID or a hardware RAID done by the cheap integrated RAID controller of my motherboard. Based on past experiences, I have decided that only my data is worth saving — that's why the RAID should mirror two disks (FAT32) that are not the boot disk (i.e. do not contain an OS or any fancy stuff). Of course, such a setup should secure my data; should a drive crash, I want the system up and running in no time. Even more importantly, I want any drive and its data to be as safe and portable as possible (that's the reason for choosing FAT32), even if the OS or the controller screw up big time. So, which should I choose? Who should I trust more, Microsoft's Windows 7 or possibly the cheapest RAID controller on the market? Are there other cheap solutions?"
Do you really want to trust Windows with your data?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
You data is most important and you plan to use FAT? Good luck with that!
Seriously, though. No RAID solution that is not totally S/W is portable. But do you really need RAID? It sounds like what you need is a good backup solution with frequent backups. Does you data change so much that losing one day's worth of data would be a problem?
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
RAID is not a backup. Get a backup solution or you'll realize you can be even more frustrated.
If you want data integrity, use NTFS. Using Fat32 is like saying you want a reliable car, so you're buying a Edsel because they've been around a long time-- it doesn't make sense. Every other OS on earth can read NTFS (if not write it), so it won't affect your portability requirement.
Secondly, before you make any decision regarding Windows 7 RAID, make sure the edition of Windows 7 you want to buy ships with software RAID support before you put all your eggs in that basket-- early betas and RCs of Vista had software RAID enabled, only to have it disabled before release. I've seen no guarantees about Windows 7 software RAID support, and which editions will have it enabled. (If any.)
If you're planning to move to a server OS after Windows 7 expires, I can practically guarantee software RAID will be enabled, but that still doesn't mean you can necessarily upgrade your Windows 7 software RAID array to a Windows Server software RAID array. Do your homework.
Comment of the year
You sound like someone that need to be reminded that RAID IS NOT BACKUP! Google for that sentence. All you talk about is saving your data, and RAID will not do that for you. You'd be better off just using the second drive as a backup. RAID will not save you from accidental overwriting of data, corrupt filesystems, broken chipsets, etc. The only thing RAID will save you from is downtime. If you lose that much money on the downtime it takes to recover from a backup, then by all means, use RAID, but don't treat it as a backup solution that will protect your data. That's not what it's made for.
c++;
These motherboard "raids" are called fakeraids.
All that it is is that it writes the metadata on the disk in specific format so that you can see the raid volumes via BIOS. Note: Only "see" their status - in case you replace one drive, the resync is still done by software and you must boot to operating system. One clue is the fact that in Linux the dmraid package uses exactly same driver for accessing fakeraid-mirrored drives and Linux's own software-raids - device mapper just does a bit of magic at init.
However, if faced with choice of Windows-only or motherboard-raid, I'd go with the motherboard-version, because that's at least supported both by Windows and Linux so in case something goes wrong with your Windows installation you can always pop in Knoppix or some other Linux CD for recovery.
RAID1 serves only one function. Increased uptime. If avoiding having to spend 2 hours restoring from a backup is your primary goal, then RAID1 might make sense for you. Do you have an office full of workers that will all lose productivity if you have a system crash? If so, then RAID may make sense. Any other use of RAID1 is fool's gold. It will not protect your data from a system-level problem. It will not protect your data from corruption (especially not on a FAT32 file system, which was never intended for any partition size above 32GB in the first place). It will not even always protect you from a single drive failure, since the rebuild process in a RAID1 setup often kills the second drive while trying to recover data. As many have said already on the thread, RAID is not backup. Backup needs to be a completely independent device. Unless you have serious uptime considerations, RAID1 should not be part of your backup strategy.
That's nice, but the submitter is asking about RAID 1.
Actually, it depends on the reliability. 95% reliability becomes 90.25% reliability. 50% reliability becomes 25% reliability. 1% reliability becomes 0.01% reliability.
So if your drives are very reliable, it's very slightly less than twice the failure rate. If your drives are not reliable, then it asymptotically approaches an infinitely greater risk of failure.
Statistically speaking. :)
RAID is only marginally valuable. In my experience, for all but the most carefully controlled environments, RAID simply adds complexity, the number of things to go wrong increases, along with the likelyhood of lost data. Do it only if you want the *experience* of running RAID, but don't count on RAID to "save your data".
I've worked as a system administrator for more than a decade, in medium-large scale deployments with good success, (think: servicing thousands of users, hundreds of domain names, tens of thousands of email addresses, etc) so I think I have some useful experience you can benefit from.
IMHO, you most likely to lose data from the following things (in order)
1) Aw sh1tz. "I didn't mean to delete that folder"... or "Whoops! I formatted the wrong drive", "I saved the wrong version of the file!", whatever. Although I *myself* don't have this happen often, it does happen. And even in my case I've lost about as much useful information this way as by drives dying. Users delete stuff all the time, and it's usually my job to bring it back, which is why I perform redundant, historical backups EVERY SINGLE DAY.
2) Malware. Don't minimize this - it's real, and it's why I reply to Parent. You are more likely to lose information from a virus/worm/malware and/or b0rked install of something that hoses your filesystem than by a hard disk crash given stable hardware.
3) Bugs. Filesystems have bugs. So do applications, utilities, anything with software. Strange, unexpected conditions, often caused by bugs in applications can cause data to "disappear", files to get corrupted, filesystems to get corrupted, folders to be incompletely written, etc. This is about as likely to cause lost data as:
4) Hardware failure. This is one of the lowest orders of lost data, although when it happens, it can be one of the most extreme.
Let me say this: RAID 1/5 only PARTIALLY protects you from the last one. Actual, bona-fide backups protect you from all of these. If you care about the data, get backups. If you care about uptimes at great expense, RAID *may* be worth it.
My advice is something most people don't want to hear: for personal use, get backups online for $5/month. Mozy/Carbonite/etc. There are zillion vendors, just Google it. In two years, it will cost you about as much as that 2nd hard drive. It protects you far better than that 2nd hard drive, and it's so automatic that you'll hardly notice it until the moment it actually matters: when you just have discovered that your data is gone.
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
The article smacks of false dichotomy. There are a number of solutions, not just Windows 7 or a hardware RAID controller.
To begin with, every NT-lineage Windows version ever produced supports software RAID out of the box. Add that to the fact that any major Linux distro today supports software RAID. And so do the *BSDs. And Mac OS X. And Solaris. And probably a bunch of other platforms I can't think of right now.
Hell, you could buy one of these one of these and throw the drives in it, connect it to your network switch, and presto -- instant RAID+NAS.
I think we would all like to know why you think Windows 7 is your only option, because if that's what you think, you don't know how mistaken you are.
My blog
What RAID is good for:
Better to just throw a disk in an old machine and back up to it regularly.
"Safe" FAT32, cheap RAID, RAID implied as backup, Microsoft.
Nice job, you successfully trolled the /. frontpage.
Leben Sie jetzt die Fragen.
Do you work for one of these online backup places?
I would sooner trust a WD drive with my valuable data.
Wrong. You need to buy at least two of these controllers, at the same time, or else when your "real" RAID card dies (and they do), you'll lose all your data unless you can find an identical card (you may even need the exact same firmware version).
Software RAID on Linux is a much better solution, as the underlying hardware doesn't matter. You can mix and match different drive models/sizes (can't do that on HW RAID), and swap the drives to a different system and still read them thanks to the standardized on-disk data format.
Personally, I haven't yet encountered anyone who really got benefit from those personal Internet backup services like Mozy. In regular use, it always seems like the person exceeds their storage allotment or Internet connectivity issues prevent them from recovering what they need, when they need it.
I tend to recommend people buy an inexpensive external USB or firewire drive, leave it attached and assigned as a backup device, and have some software package run a daily backup of all the relevant folders and files they might need to save.
It's great that your data is stored offline and off-site ... but I'm just not sold on most of the implementations for "home use" being as great a solution as they first appear to be. Many of the providers have come and gone over the years, too. What happens when your offline backup company goes under?
And what allot of people don't realize is if you build a RAID array and a drive fails can you replace the drive with the exact make and model? Raids work best when every disk in the array is the same model and revision. If you plan to build a 5 disk raid array you should also purchase a 6th drive to keep as a cold spare.
I built a RAID 5 array using three 500GB disks via mdadm under Linux. I assembled the array and formatted it. Within minutes of testing I was getting mail from mdadm telling me the array was degraded. I then began to test each disk for defects and lo and behold one disk was bad right from the start. I tried to RMA the disk but newegg had informed me those disks were now obsolete. Great. I was credited for the bad disk and purchased a new one that closely matched the other two. It was a nightmare as during some boots the disks went haywire and I would get a "Could not bd_claim sdaX" And it would hang for a while and I would have no array. It happend once in a rare while until it became a real problem. I kept my most precious data safely backed up on different disks I had spread around. It finally got so bad that I would have to constantly reboot the machine for up to ten times before the disks were synced up and the array worked. I purchased a 1TB disk and copied all the data off the array to it and used the 500gb disks in other systems. RAID is great for big fat storage arrays but it can become very sensitive and then one day POOF its all gone.
This is the reason OEM drives from Dell, Apple, HP etc. Cost four times what a retail drive would cost. The cost is no way associated with quality but rather consistency. Retail SATA drives are constantly changing: less/more platters, faster seek and read speeds and firmware revisions. Those costly OEM drives are the same disk every time right down to the inner workings and firmware. So if you buy an Apple 1TB disk on a sled and it takes a dump in three years you can be confident Apple will replace that drive with the EXACT same one. Its not a magical Apple disk of superior quality but a Maxtor/WD/Hitachi disk that is produced for Apple with no revision changes unless Apple orders it. Unlike retail drives which are changed at the manufactures whim.
So if you are building your own raid plan for failures and try to buy a spare for your array. I don't know disk shelf live but it will save you down the line. Also keep a USB or 1394 disk around for backups. Spread your most precious data around like pictures home movies and documents. If you have a few computers around the house keep a mirror of that data one those machines. Music, and downloaded video can be re downloaded but home movies and pictures cannot. Put all the silly stuff on the raid along with the precious stuff for access but keep backups of the good stuff!
He wants to mirror the drives. This means he wants RAID 1. Therefore, the failure rate of the array is 1/2 the failure rate of each disk (more, actually, because they're like;y identical drives that will fail at the same time, but you get my point).
Fast facts:
I prefer pure software RAIDs, for a simple reason: They do not depend on available hardware. If one controller dies, switch to another one: Other brand, other type, other drivers, and the RAID still works. If you insist, you can even mix an IDE drive, a USB drive, a SATA drive and a SCSI drive into a single RAID. Try that with a hardware or host RAID. Some people even built RAIDs of floppy disks or USB sticks (not for pemanent use, of course).
My faithful old Linux home server runs two RAIDs, both in software: a RAID-1 for the OS (remember: the BIOS does not know about the RAID), and a RAID-5 for the data. The RAID-1 used to run on old SCA drives, but recently, I switched to two small IDE drives due to unrecoverable SCA cabling problems. The RAID-5 is composed of four IDE drives, connected to two IDE controllers, each disk on a single IDE cable. An external USB disk is used to back up my data, rotating through 10 days. All filesystems are ext3, all disks are monitored using SMART, all RAIDs are monitored. If anything wents wrong, I will get an e-mail from the monitoring software.
Until recently, one of the controllers was an el-cheapo non-RAID controller, and the other one was a donated, expensive, well-known brand, RAID-capable controller running in non-RAID mode. The latter one decided to randomly take some free time on the job, and either disconnected from the PCI bus or disturbed it, causing panics in the OS above. Only pure luck protected me from data loss. I ripped it out of the machine, kicked it into the trash bin, rewired the RAID to use two disks per IDE cable, and verified and reconstructed my data. Some days later, another el-cheapo non-RAID IDE controller arrived, the same brand, model and type that already sat in the next PCI slot. So I rewired the RAID again to work with one disk per cable, everything was fine again.
For a new small business or home server, I would use nearly the same setup again: Two software RAIDs, one for the OS, and one for the data. Upgrading the OS is just fun when you can
Denken hilft.
All modern disks remap sectors as necessary. The main difference between consumer and RAID drives is the timeout for error correction.
Whoa, hold the boat. I've had a lot of experience with Dell & HP/Compaq(Proliant) provided RAID systems and they are not sensitive to disks with vastly different innards. All that matters is block count and software mirroring doesn't even care about that, because you'll simply be limited to the size of the smaller disk. If you're using mirroring or RAID, try to go with different makes of the same size. This article talks about MTBF. It turns out if 2 drives of the same exact model comes off the line and end up in your PC, there is a chance they could fail within a very close time to one another. So your mirror or RAID could fail permanently while rebuilding from the first failure. But if all your drives are of a different make, chances are they won't fail at the same time and you'll get the critical time needed to rebuild your array.
When I'm going to do mirroring or RAID on hardware that doesn't have high-end dedicated server RAID controller, I use Windows or Linux software RAID. Performance is surprisingly good and I'm not married to a specific hardware implementation. I've had _none_ of the issues you've described with Linux software RAID on several servers for several years. Mdadm has only whined after a power outage or genuine disk failure.
There's no place like 127.0.0.1
"That's nice, but the submitter is asking about RAID 1."
I think he's asking the wrong question anyway.
"Based on past experiences, I have decided that only my data is worth saving"
See? He is asking for backup, not RAID. It has been said one thousand times but it seems it must be said again: RAID is *NOT* in order to protect your data. NOT, NOT, NOT and then NOT again.
RAID (not talking about RAID-0) is there in order to enhance your data's avaliability (as in, say, instead of being able to get to my data 99% of the time, I can get to it 99,9%) but when it's hosed, it's hosed. To protect your data you need backups, not RAID.
"Of course, such a setup should secure my data"
Of course not. Of course you will get quite a funny face when you discover it. Quite more or less the one that had the guy from this story, about six months ago, with the very enlightning title "Why Mirroring Is Not a Backup Solution": http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/02/1546214
"Even more importantly, I want any drive and its data to be as safe and portable as possible"
Then, *even* if RAID could be considered for data security (which is not) you already answered your question: as a general matter, hardware RAID will only work when using exactly the same controller model, possibly up to its minor revision. You can't count to break a hardware-managed mirror, take one disk to a standard SATA controller and get any data out of it. If your controller dies and miracolously doesn't take the disks with it you can't count on buying a different RAID card (as it will most probably be in about a year for consumer-grade hardware) and get any data out of the mirror. So you should go with software RAID.
AND TAKE BACKUPS.
Raids work best when every disk in the array is the same model and revision. If you plan to build a 5 disk raid array you should also purchase a 6th drive to keep as a cold spare.
I hate to break it to you, but you're actually wrong.
A RAID array is most effective using completely different drives, but of the same capacity. Five hard disks from the same manufacturer, of the same model, bought at the same time means that you're highly likely to get five drives from the same batch. Let's posit that there was some defect in this batch. Now all five of your drives have a significantly higher probability of failing at the same time. Oops! RAID can only deal with one (or two) drive failures!
Using drives from different manufacturers or model lines means you spread the risk of simultaneous drive failure.
Why RAID is not a backup:
1) not fireproof.
2) not mistake proof "oops, didn;t mean to delete that"
3) not immune to file system corruption.
4) not immune to power supply failure/surge/lightning/other destructive forces
5) more expensive than a good backup
6) not protable offsite
7) does not track versionb history or old files (something that should be of critical importance to a programmer...
8) Viruses, mailware, hackers oh my!
9) bad/corrupt install
10) OS failure
I could easily go on. I worked in DR for 4 years...
Nearly all of the above have a higher frequency of occurance over a 5 year typical HDD life. Even if you continually replace drives without a data failure, you're still eventually going to have an issue RAID can not deal with.
My Qnap was a $399 device. The 4 drives in it were $90 each (and the 5th spare too). The HDDs I run the PC off on the RAID 1/0 were $40 each. I only run the RAID 1/0 for performance during video editing. I chose 1/0 vs 1 since 1 halves the reliabiltiy of the drives. Even though I do have a good recovery solution, the downtime, nor the effort involved in recovery, would be welcome, and the extra $80 to mirror the performance stripe was easily spent.
The Qnap is also my iTunes media server, my FTP server, included the price of the DR software, and runs 2 IP cameras I set up at home too (which let me tell the insurance company I have real-time video monitoring, and they knowcked an extra 5% of my homewoners policy cost, which by itself is enough to fund replacement drives as I'll need them).... Oh, yea, and it's a NAS too... It has a lot of value beyond a backup system.
I'm guessing you've not got a child yet, or a large family. You probably don;t value to pictures you take, files you have, and other stuff on your PC. That's fine, someday you likely will.
There are cheaper ways than mine to do backups. I have over a TB, and 3 (currelty, soon to add 2 Macs to the list an decom 1 old laptop leaving me with 4) computers I'm backing up, so centrally makes sense. If you have 1-2 machines, a small amount of data, and don't value most of it, then 2 external USB drives and a safety deposit box (Dad's house) usually suffice... Or, just an online backup account for $5 a month...
RAID 1 might save you from a firmware failure, or a disk going bad, but that's about it... Also, RAID 1 may be cheap, but a backup is cheaper. Also, good luck rebuilding that RAID if your MOTHERBOARD fails... RAIDs are proprietary to a particular controller. Unless your new board usues the same chipset (and firmware too in most cases) you;re screwed without a backup.
There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.