Bletchley Park WWII Staff Finally Recognized

99luftballon writes "Nearly 70 years after Station X (aka the Bletchley Park cryptanalysis unit) was set up, the surviving members are to be honored by the British government. Bletchley was one of the most important computing centers of its time and housed giants of the technology industry (as it was) like Tommy Flowers, who built Colossus, and Dr. Alan Turing. I was lucky enough to meet one of the staff at the site 11 years ago, and she was very bitter that their work was never recognized, and that they were bound by the Official Secrets Act and couldn't talk about it. It's just a shame that so few of the staff are still alive to receive the award."

Comments

Only for the living?

[allaunjsilverfox2]

Why not a posthumous award for those that aren't among us fleshbags?

Re:Only for the living?

[davester666]

It creeps the Queen out when she has to pin something onto a corpse.

Re:Only for the living?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not if she uses her majesties' crossbow.

Re:Only for the living?

[YourExperiment]

It creeps the Queen out when she has to pin something onto a corpse.

That's why Philip has to put his own medals on in the morning.

Re:Only for the living?

[sqldr]

Damn.. you got there first, although I was going to make some joke about them having sex. You wasted a perfect opportunity to gross out the whole of slashdot!

Re:Only for the living?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because then they would have to give an award to a queer, which is simply unthinkable.

Re:Only for the living?

[weav]

Because then they would have to give an award to a queer, which is simply unthinkable.

What do you mean?! Even "Elton John" (Reggie Dwight) has an OBE these days...

Re:Only for the living?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, like say, the George Cross for Alan Turing seeing has he almost certainly helped end the war early and undoubted saved thousands, potentially even millions of lives through his work.

But then, that'd also mean admitting Churchill's government was wrong in pushing him to his death, and as Churchill is apparently the greatest ever Britain we couldn't possibly suggest that he did anything wrong now could we.

Their value system is out of whack

[BadAnalogyGuy]

What the British government did, by covering up and hiding the work these people did, is an affront to the very concept of a free society.

But what's wrong with the people involved that they can't do it for anything more than love of their country? Barring that, why aren't they satisfied with the money they received for it?

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[Anonymous Coward]

On the flipside, by covering up the work, one could argue that they kept their society more free from the rule of foreign regimes by securing vital technology.

But, for how many years is it useful to do this?

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[GreenTech11]

I'm sure they enjoyed what they did, but if you have given most of your life to a cause, then you'll want some form of recognition for it. These people received no such public recognition, while many people in similar fields have, so it is understandable that they are upset by the lack of recognition.

.

As for the British Government hiding this work, they likely believed that by revealing it at the time they were endangering the staff of the facillity, as well as the country as a whole.

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[BadAnalogyGuy]

That kind of attitude reminds me of the graduation ceremonies for kindergarteners, elementary school students, and middle school students. Recognizing the daily work of people as something extraordinary when in fact it is not only ordinary but required and demanded. Praising someone for doing the bare minimum is not only an insult to that person but to all people to whom you would ever reward.

These people did their duty and saved the lives of many of their countrymen. But their work was not done at great peril to themselves. It was not under a hail of cannon fire and bullets that they worked at Bletchley Park. Their work is appreciated, but it cannot be more appreciated than the lives of soldiers who gave much much more in the defense of their countrymen.

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[Antique Geekmeister]

This was not ordinary work. It was extraordinary work, with some of the most brilliant minds of the time and with amazing mathematical and scientific developments worth of Nobel Prizes.

A lack of recognition might have also helped so many of them work quietly in the "BBC World Service" for decades after the war.

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[TapeCutter]

Yes so extrodinary that for decades after the war it was used by the US/UK to spy on enemies and allies.

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[reverseengineer]

"It was thanks to Ultra that we won the war." -Winston Churchill, to King George VI

I must disagree with the notion that the work at Bletchley Park was not done at peril to those involved. No, the codebreakers didn't die in the mud taking back pieces of Europe, but what they did was so important that when they went to work, they too went to battle. Secrecy was their armor. If Nazi Germany had truly known what was going on at Bletchley Park, they would have sent every plane in the Luftwaffe to turn it into a crater. Honoring those that served there does not diminish the honors bestowed on those who died on battlefields.

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[Yazeran]

Actually what the germans would have done instead of trying to bomb bletchley (which they likely could have done using the knickebein , X-beam or Y-beam bombing system depending on date) was to change their encryption systems to something more secure.

They made a number of errors in how thy used the Enigma (stereotypical messages, repetition of the message key etc.) which they could have corrected sooner had they known that the British (and notably the poles even before the war) had broken the Enigma.

For instance the naval version of the Enigma was much harder to break than the standard army version as German marine was much more conscious about the above pitfalls and had a more complex Enigma.

Yours Yazeran

Plan: to go to mars with a hammer

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[99luftballon]

Almost all of the staff were draftees, doing their military service at the camp. I never heard anyone complain about the money - it was what people did in war time. Indeed Tommy Flowers spent more than the £1,000 he received to build Colossus. But with the war won they couldn't talk about what they had done until the 1980s and their extraordinary contribution has never been officially recognised.

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[99luftballon]

I see your point on this, although their work did enable many servicemen and women to come home alive.

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[BrokenHalo]

I doubt if the usefulness of such secrecy ever came into it. The British government has an extensive record for secretiveness, largely because they have a long record of underhand dealings with all parts of the world, including their own populace.

They probably kept Bletchley Park's role (subsequently to the War) under wraps out of nothing more than sheer habit.

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[Anonymous Coward]

In Australia, we have a (very common) saying ... Pommy Bastards!

Now the rest of the world might understand what we mean!

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[SlashWombat]

Yes, but had they honored those at Bletchley Park, perhap Alan Turing would not have suicided. (Some say he was assassinated) At least he would have been viewed as a hero for what he (and others) achieved for the Allies.

PS: Don't mention the war, I did once but I think I got away with it!

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[Anonymous Coward]

In the UK, we have a very common saying that your ancestors all heard... Guilty!

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[jo42]

What the British government did ... is an affront to the very concept of a free society.

You haven't been following what the British government has been doing the last few years in the name of anti-terrorism, have you...

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[Anonymous Coward]

They probably kept Bletchley Park's role (subsequently to the War) under wraps out of nothing more than sheer habit.

Or the fact that they knew how to crack an encryption scheme that
was still popular amongst plenty of potential future enemies. Just saying.

Fifteen to twenty years would have been reasonable.
Thirty years would have been okay-ish.

But I have to agree that keeping confidentiality half a century after
the rest of the world actually knew about the secret
seems just a bit overdone.

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[Anonymous Coward]

Still, better than trying to wipe out the native peoples. Never mind, eh?

Besides, the only difference between the poms and yourselves is that you were stupid enough to get caught.

Again, never mind.

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[token_username]

Think about it.

Revelation of a capability will immediately cause adversaries to adapt themselves to minimize exposure to your areas of expertise. That can be instant or point research and be more gradual. Either way, even suggestions of your present capabilities are priceless for an adversary's minimization of risk. That's why intelligence methods are kept secret. A lot of people simply do not get this connection.

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[Anonymous Coward]

Cool. Can see what else you have stashed up your ass?

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

Actually what the germans would have done instead of trying to bomb bletchley (which they likely could have done using the knickebein , X-beam or Y-beam bombing system depending on date) was to change their encryption systems to something more secure.

Why "instead"?

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[gyrogeerloose]

That's absolutely true. But it was possible for the people of Bletchley Park to be recognized for their achievements without giving up the technical details of what they did--especially when you consider that, by the 1970s, it was already common knowledge everywhere else in the world but Great Britain.

I frequently get pissed off by the shenanigans of my own government (U.S.) but when it comes to unnecessary secrecy and invasion of privacy, the British government has about the worst record in the (nominally) free world.

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[Yazeran]

To protect whatever source they would have had that the British did their code-breaking at bletchley.

The British had the same considerations when they had decrypted material; 'how much of it can we use before the Germans get the idea that we have broken their encryption'. Some times U-boats or supply ships was left alone even after their exact position was known in order to protect the fact that Enigma was broken.

Yours Yazeran

Plan: To go to Mars one day with a hammer

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[cyn1c77]

These people did their duty and saved the lives of many of their countrymen. But their work was not done at great peril to themselves. It was not under a hail of cannon fire and bullets that they worked at Bletchley Park. Their work is appreciated, but it cannot be more appreciated than the lives of soldiers who gave much much more in the defense of their countrymen.

Do you feel the same way about the Manhattan Project participants?

Their work doesn't need to be "more" appreciated than that of the basic soldier, but it still isn't "ordinary." Ordinary is if you keep doing your day job. In some cases, "ordinary" also means you get drafted and go along and follow orders.

A lot of these scientists worked 18+ hour days to get their jobs done in wartime. They probably also had to justify their existence to the government for all or part of the time they were working until they succeeded. Were they in harm's way? No. But each time they cracked a Nazi code, they saved many many more lives than they would have saved doing their "ordinary" jobs or serving as soldiers.

I don't think that anyone is trying to equate their efforts to that of a brave soldier performing valiantly under fire. But their amazing scientific progress should definitely be acknowledged given the impact their work has had on the field and the war.

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[budgenator]

These people did their duty and saved the lives of many of their countrymen. But their work was not done at great peril to themselves. It was not under a hail of cannon fire and bullets that they worked at Bletchley Park. Their work is appreciated, but it cannot be more appreciated than the lives of soldiers who gave much much more in the defense of their countrymen.

There is nothing wrong with not giving your life for your country while giving the other bastard every opportunity to give his for his.

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[BrokenHalo]

In Australia, we have a (very common) saying ... Pommy Bastards!
Now the rest of the world might understand what we mean!

Hmmm. The record of many Australian governments for underhand dealings is nothing to be sanctimonious about either, so pipe down.

[Disclaimer: I am a British (not English) and Australian dual national.]

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[spaceyhackerlady]

Actually what the germans would have done instead of trying to bomb bletchley (which they likely could have done using the knickebein , X-beam or Y-beam bombing system depending on date) was to change their encryption systems to something more secure.

This is was one of the issues the allies had with ULTRA and MAGIC decrypts: what do you do with it? It's so hot that if the enemy suspected, for a second, that their system had been compromised, they would change it, and you'd be back to square one.

Apparently many lower-rank Germans suspected Enigma had been cracked, but the upper echelons refused to hear of it.

...laura

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[Xest]

"What the British government did, by covering up and hiding the work these people did, is an affront to the very concept of a free society."

I assume you mean after the war? Else if the government had strived for a free society during the war hence letting the Germans know we'd cracked enigma and that we were going to carry out D-Day then we'd all be speaking German.

"But what's wrong with the people involved that they can't do it for anything more than love of their country?"

The idea of doing something for the love of your country is a bit pointless, most people particularly of the enlightened view of the folks at Bletchley probably wouldn't have such time for that argument. You can't really help where you're born, and whilst it might shape who you are to an extent, it doesn't necessarily shape your world view. You could not say that everyone brought up in Nazi Germany at the time for example supported the Nazi viewpoint that all Jews should be exterminated. Personally, I don't support many modern British values such as the prominent xenophobia that is rife in British society nowadays. I was born here, I'm British, but my viewpoint is much more closely aligned to much more liberal countries like Sweden and Canada so in all honesty I'm not a big fan of my country or what it's become even if I'm proud of certain elements of it's history - but only because those elements represent the things I agree with but that modern society in this country go against. So whilst these people may have been happy to do what they did for the cause their country is fighting for, they may not have seen the value in doing it purely for their country, because countries can be wrong, can do things wrong, and can ultimately be quite fallible. Even at the time of the War there were many parts of British imperialism that were quite shameful even if the cause Britain was fighting for militarily at the time was just.

"Barring that, why aren't they satisfied with the money they received for it?"

The problem is, that whilst they were no doubt happy at the time, it is somewhat of a kick in the teeth that society has forgotten what a certain segment of who are frankly war heroes have done. Particularly if other heroes are being honoured and they're simply being ignored. It seems silly to honour the guy at Normandy who saved his single friend from a German soldiers knife whilst ignoring the codebreaker back at Bletchley who saved a thousand people on a boat by breaking the code to find out where the U-Boats were hidden. Both are ultimately heroes, but it's a kick in the teeth to the other guy if you honour one and not the other. It doesn't do much for pulling in talent to codebreak in a future war effort if codebreakers are effectively shat on despite the fact they ultimately have a larger effect on the war effort as individuals than the troops on the ground do.

I'm not discrediting the value of the soldiers on the ground, personally I'm for honouring every man, woman and even animal who contributes to such a cause, but we shouldn't allow heroes to be forgotten. In fact, whilst I love animals it strikes me as a little odd that up until now we had honoured courier pidgeons used to send messages covertly and dogs that had been parachuted into enemy territory along with the SAS to evade patrols yet we had not honoured the codebreakers at Bletchley.

Effectively then, if you honour one set of actors in a war, but not others it sends the wrong message. It sends the message that their work wasn't appreciated and that they do not matter.

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[Anonymous Coward]

To protect whatever source they would have had that the British did their code-breaking at bletchley.

I don't think you've thought this one through. Would changing their codes actually protect their source? What information would this source provide in the future that could possibly be of greater value than the location of the best British codebreakers?

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[Yazeran]

Actually yes, a switch in codes would not necessarily have to be due to knowledge of enemy code breaking and even so, no knowledge of whom had leaked the thing would be nessesarry.

On the other hand, if they had bombed bletchley, then only people who knew that it was at bletchley it was done could have been the leak. whereas the other option could be ascribed to either one of a number of reasons:

1) mathematical analysis of their own codes leading to discovery of weaknesses
2) a lowlevel leak from someone who had seen material which could only have come from decryption (but not knowing anything about how or where this was done)
3) a highlevel leak in bletchley or close to the brittish high command.

Of these 1 and 2 would be far more likely and from a german perspective far better to have the brittish believe than if the had been option 3.

Yours Yazeran

Plan: To go to Mars one day with a hammer

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[Goth Biker Babe]

The results of the cracking of Enigma were kept secret because after the war the Enigma technology was sold on and they didn't want the purchasers to know that it had already been cracked!

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[Goth Biker Babe]

The issue is this. During the war if you were seen to be 'avoiding' the front lines or fighting for your country you had a very very rough time of it. War was hell for those who apparently were not doing their duty for the country. This is from everyone. You were a pariah in your communities. You were picked on by the local authorities (police, etc).

So imagine how you felt if you knew you were working hard for Britain in the war but you couldn't tell anyone. Not only are you not being recognised you're getting all the shit from the rest of your society over it too. It was not nice for them. I know I'd bloody be bitter.

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[hughk]

If you have ever been to BP's excellent little museum, you will learn why everything was kept very secret. There is a display showing some Warsaw Pact devices from the late sixties and a casual remark shows they are based on the old WW2 Nazi teleprinter (Lorenz) coding devices. The technology embodied in Colossus and the techniques used to break the codes were very much in use for a long time after the end of WW2.

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[hughk]

One of the interesting points is that whilst the majority of the Manhatten Project people were sequestered away in the middle of nowehere, many of these people were living in their normal towns and villages nearby. Many of those not in uniform would face criticism (if not accusations of cowardice) for not joining up. A difficult situation in which to maintain secrecy.

Re:Their value system is out of whack

[Anonymous Coward]

For instance the naval version of the Enigma was much harder to break than the standard army version as German marine was much more conscious about the above pitfalls and had a more complex Enigma.

The naval version was only cracked because in order to communicate with weather stations (which used the old three-rotor Enigma system) they were setting their fourth rotor to a 'null' position. Backward compatibility and encryption do not mix.

2792

[TopSpin]

amazon + Bletchley = 2791

It registers fine.

    isc 0x009811009211521 AK

Let's Start With an Apology

[Comatose51]

Let's start with an apology to Alan Turing and a public recognition for the grave injustice dealt to him for being homosexual, despite his enormous service to his country, the allies, philosophy, and, of course, computer science.

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[Anonymous Coward]

FTA, "like Tommy Flowers, who built Colossus, and Dr. Alan Turing"

I believe we only have Mr. Flowers to blame. If he'd built Mr. Turing as just a regular heterosexual, he would've been a lot better off!

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[BadAnalogyGuy]

The two things are separate.

First, he worked for the government as a code breaker. While he has not received official recognition until now, it must be remembered that this was a top-secret operation and there was always the possibility that the operation would never be recognized.

Second, he was gay. Like other gays in Britain at that time, he was persecuted and prosecuted.

Now if you want to say that he should be recognized above and beyond his workmates at Bletchley because he was also gay, that simply doesn't make any sense.

If you want to say he should be apologized to more than any other persecuted gay person because he was somehow more useful to the government than the others, that also doesn't make any sense.

Putting these two things together is a non-sequitor.

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[MrMista_B]

Way to put words in someone else's mouth, asshole.

Nobody has said that he should be recognized above and beyond his workmates at Bletchley, but you. Nobody has siad that he should be apologized to more than any other persecuted gay person becaues he was more useful to the government, except, again, for you.

Putting those things together is something that /only you/ have done, and it makes you look like an asshole.

Alan Turing deserves an apology, and trying to weasel around that like you have done is simply dishonorable.

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[Bastard of Subhumani]

Putting these two things together is a non-sequitor.

A what?

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[Tacvek]

Surely he does. He deserves two apologies. Unfortunately, one of them, namely the persecution for homosexuality is simply not possible. To apologize to him specifically for that, while not doing the same for all the others is tantamount to singling him out because he was also a codebreaker.

Apologizing for failing to recognize his code-breaking work is possible. There are a sufficiently small number of them (all with identities known to the Crown (i.e. in the records)) that apologizing to all of them is viable. However, people tend to be somewhat adverse to apologizing to the dead (with the exception of those known personally). So this also seems unlikely.

He is in good company though. Darn near everybody is owed apologies that will never come.

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[BadAnalogyGuy]

Why just him? Shouldn't all gays persecuted under those laws get an apology?

The singling of Turing out for special treatment is not my idea, it's apparently yours.

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[WeirdJohn]

According to someone I knew who worked on Colossus with Turing and Flowers, Turing was attracted to teenage boys, and didn't feel good about it. Meanwhile the British Government kept sending him to Boys Schools to "inspire the young men". This was, so I was told, what drove him to suicide - like forcing a reformed junkie to work in a pharmacy.

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[superdana]

Oh good, let's keep equating gay people with pedophiles, and let's do it on hearsay and rumor. Lovely.

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[bishop32x]

I think the forced chemical castration played a larger role in his suicide...

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[awpoopy]

Congratulations on being the first one to bring the word asshole into a conversation about a gay man. Dickweed.

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[Ian Alexander]

So why did he wait until years after the war and until he was being actively persecuted for his homosexuality with forced chemical castration and all that? If being sent to boys' schools was bothering him then you'd think he'd be at his highest risk for suicide while it was happening. If I were in his shoes, I would have heaved a sigh of relief and moved on once the government stopped sending me round to the boys' schools.

And wasn't his involvement at Bletchley Park extraordinarily classified, seeing as how it yielded highly-sensitive information about German movements? Why would they send someone like that around to the boys' schools as opposed to like a military officer? That would have been a rather short speech, wouldn't it? "Hello children, I can't tell you my name and I do something, somewhere that's extremely classified and would be of great interest to the Germans. Chin up!" I think a man in uniform would fit then-current British standards of inspiringness better than a mysterious mathematician, anyway, and I imagine the less he was exposed to the public eye the happier the Allies would have been.

Your story has holes and attempts to answer a question whose answer was already well-known. I don't buy it.

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[bogjobber]

If you want to say he should be apologized to more than any other persecuted gay person because he was somehow more useful to the government than the others, that also doesn't make any sense.

It does, though. I don't think anyone would suggest that the UK government apologize to Turing and Turing alone, but singling him out as a symbol of the terrible things done to homosexuals at the time isn't unfair. His torture and eventual suicide have become symbolic for what hideously repressive things were done to homosexuals back then, at least to the small percentage of people who know and care of such things.

Remember, society is all about symbolism and people care about symbolic gestures very much. Alan Turing wouldn't be the first person to be made into a symbol of repression. Rosa Parks wasn't the first black woman told to move to the front of the bus, but it wasn't unfair to single her out and give her a state funeral. Nelson Mandela wasn't the only black leader imprisoned in South Africa, but he was the symbol of apartheid and elected to be president in 1994. Muhammad Ali wasn't the only draft dodger to be stripped of his livelihood and publicly ridiculed, but his was the case that went to the US Supreme Court.

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[V!NCENT]

To everybody in this thread: can we please stop putting people in boxes and categorise them? Everybody is an individual and what does it matter if someone like the color blue, red, green, boy or girls? Stop calling someone straight and gay. You're a person who just happens to be attracted to people of your own gender, the oppositye gender, both or neither. It is the year 2009 and by now one would expect people to be a little bit wiser, especialy on places like /..

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[xaxa]

Most teenagers are over the age of consent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia describes people "indicating sexual preference for mid-to-late adolescents", and is different from paedophilia, which is a preference for pre-pubescents.

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[WeirdJohn]

Alan Turing was well known for his genius both before and after Bletchley, especially for his work on computation and biological mathematics. It was at one of his guest lectures at a school where he made his famous remark "the brain is much like a bowl of cold porridge". Although the exact nature of his wartime work was secret, it was no secret that he was Britain's answer to Einstein and Von Neumann, and was widely paraded as an example of British excellence at a time when the country was still ravaged by war and stricken with debt.

The story I was told was from an Engineer who worked under Flowers, and built Turing's contradiction identifying components. He has passed away, but I have no reason to disregard his interpretation of events in favour of those of people who were not there.

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[Kirth Gersen]

BadAnalogyGuy:

If you want to say he should be apologized to more than any other persecuted gay person because he was somehow more useful to the government than the others, that also doesn't make any sense.

It makes sense to me. Here's another analogy: have you heard of the recent case where a Moslem woman was suing some guy in a German court, the guy starts stabbing her, her husband wades in to stop him, then a guard shows up and shoots the husband? Don't you think the husband deserves more of an apology than the usual innocent bystander gets?

And trust me, I believe persecuted gay guys and shot innocent bystanders both deserve *big* apologies.

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[Comatose51]

It was the combination of the two that made it worse for him. The government was afraid that his homosexuality can be used to blackmail him into revealing the secret of his work done at Bletchley. He was forced to take estrogen as a result. Had he not worked at Bletchley, it probably might not have happened since the British government would not have been as interested in his private life.

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's start with an apology to Alan Turing and a public recognition for the grave injustice dealt to him for being homosexual.(PERIOD)

There, fixed that for you. Whether or not he did his country and the world an enormous service - which he undeniably did - does not enter into it. The injustice he suffered was wrong, regardless of his merits. And the same goes for any less known individual who suffered similar injustice.

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[scottv67]

Stop calling someone straight and gay. You're a person who just happens to be attracted to people of your own gender, the oppositye gender, both or neither. It is the year 2009 and by now one would expect people to be a little bit wiser, especially on places like /..

You must be new here. You mentioned /. as a place where you have higher expectations for individual behavior. The same /. where violent flame wars break out over the type of OS (Windows vs. Linux) a person uses on his/her computer or even the logo (Apple vs non-Apple) on the that person's computer. /. is anything *but* the tolerant nirvana that you are seeking. If you are looking for "Tolerance and Understanding", you got off the elevator on the wrong floor. There are a lot of people with very strong opinions on /. and they are not afraid to speak their mind. This is not a safe place for people with thin skin.

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[sneakyimp]

It is absolutely possible to apologize to Alan Turing for the awful way in which he was treated and it needs to be done. I fail to understand why you say this is not possible. Additionally, there's nothing wrong with singling him out for this apology as the others did not suffer this wrong. Good for them. Bad for Alan Turing.

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[sneakyimp]

An apology is most definitely in order. Estrogen shots? COME ON.

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[Sulphur]

Is nirvana tolerant? -- Everything is a communication problem.

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[Lord Kano]

In today's world, we recognize that a person's sexuality is their own business. That was not the world of the 1940s. Homosexuality was seen as both a sin and a mental illness. Would we bat an eye if a major government, in a time of war, didn't give proper consideration to someone who had ADD?

LK

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[Anonymous Coward]

He built Mr. Turing? I heard he only built a Turing Sex Machine.

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[V!NCENT]

YRO, intelligent people?

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[Anonymous Coward]

People are killed and harassed for belonging to groups with certain labels, homosexual happens to be one of them - quit whining and deal.

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[Goth Biker Babe]

Welcome to slashdot. Predominantly the world of the privileged white male and the attitudes that go with that. Heaven help you if you're a bi-sexual woman. But then I probably shouldn't be worrying my pretty little head over such things...

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[V!NCENT]

It's funny that something like that is coming out of someones mouth who doesn't even dare to post even under his/her nickname...

Re:Let's Start With an Apology

[V!NCENT]

I am a privileged white male who's solely into females. But it's so funny that most people here think that they are sooooo smart and /. is intelligence league pur sang, while they can't even look beyond such simplistic things that shouldn't even matter if you are at least 1% intelligent. Oh well, if it's really true that most people think like that over here than the majority of /. must be fscking stupid...

Unprofessional

[Weedhopper]

Bitter? About not receiving public recognition over classified work?

The contribution of those who worked at Bletchley Park is immeasurable, both literally and figuratively. Anyone who is even remotely familiar with the history of cryptography or the Second World War knows of Bletchley Park.

But bitter about not having received official recognition because of the rules that were in place to maintain secrecy? Yeah, the secrecy was maintained long after it was necessary and had well passed into public knowledge, but BITTER?

I'm sorry, but no. There are thousands, if not tens of thousands of individuals whose contributions toward a free society will never be known because of the secrecy in which they had to conduct their duties. If we include those who died in war and whose bodies or for that matter, identities were never recovered, that number would probably reach into the hundreds of thousands, if not millions.

And this lady is bitter that she hasn't received recognition from the British government?

Sorry, but color me a little unsympathetic.

Re:Unprofessional

[Antique Geekmeister]

"Not recognizing", goodness. Try literally castrating: go look up what happened to Alan Turing. It's important to remember of that era that the Nazis weren't the only ones locking up people for being different: the British treatment of homosexualy and the American treatment of Japanese-Americans of that time simply reflect other nation's willingness to harass and destroy those minority groups they pick as feared scapegoats.

And 20, 30, even 50 years later, the people who helped win WWII for the allies in such profound ways deserve recognition. Those secrets are expired, or should be.

Re:Unprofessional

[jonwil]

The secrecy was maintained after the war for so long for one reason and one reason only. Namely that the USA and UK were using the same techniques to read the secret messages of a number of countries and if it became known that the USA and UK had this technology, these countries would replace their codes with something a LOT more secure.

Re:Unprofessional

[Anonymous Coward]

The secrecy was maintained after the war for so long for one reason and one reason only. Namely that the USA and UK were using the same techniques to read the secret messages of a number of countries and if it became known that the USA and UK had this technology, these countries would replace their codes with something a LOT more secure.

and you're saying that is a bad thing?

Re:Unprofessional

[Anonymous Coward]

How about recognizing the Navy personnel in Hawaii who worked on the Japanese codes? My late father in law, pre war IBM, was commissioned and sent over there as one of the supervisors to the group using IBM tabulating machines. He never broke cover in all the years I knew him. Even when I figured out what he and other of his IBM colleagues had done, he simply changed the subject. And, that was over 22 years after the fact. Classified is classified and there is no shelf date.

Re:Unprofessional

[Tacvek]

The secrecy was maintained after the war for so long for one reason and one reason only. Namely that the USA and UK were using the same techniques to read the secret messages of a number of countries and if it became known that the USA and UK had this technology, these countries would replace their codes with something a LOT more secure.

and you're saying that is a bad thing?

To the US and UK, losing the ability to break the codes of others sure seems like a bad thing.

Re:Unprofessional

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I hear you. Late in my grandpa's life, he disclosed his real job in the army: courier. Now you might think that's an unimportant job not worthy of secrecy, but he understood the messages he was carrying. He carried communication between Enrico Fermi, Einstein, Oppenheimer et All. We only learned what he did as his mind started to fail. As it started to go, he didn't make up things, but repeated things he did know. He started with more recent things, but he forgot recent things and had to move to earlier things that were more entrenched in his mind.

posted anonymously in his memory.

Re:Unprofessional

[99luftballon]

She was a little bitter, but the main reason was that for 40+ years she wasn't even allowed to tell her family or husband what she had done, which caused some unpleasantness for her among people who assumed she'd slacked off during the war. Then when she could no-one understood the significance of what she had taken part in.

Re:Unprofessional

[tonyr60]

There appears to be a perception that this work has stopped, it had not... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echelon_(signals_intelligence)

Re:Unprofessional

[choco]

My Aunt worked at Bletchley Park. She was a Bombe Operator. In her case - "Bitter" is certainly the wrong word.

At the time she knew a fair bit about what she, personally, was doing. She didn't understand all the details, but she knew she was cracking messages relating to the Battle of the Atlantic - and that it was damned important. As an intelligent woman she also knew and accepted why the secrecy was important - both at the time and afterwards. She never discussed it at the time with anyone.

My Grandfather was bright enough to work out that my Aunt had done "something a bit special" in the war - and was very frustrated that he had no idea at all what it was and that she refused to discuss it. He died in 1969. IIRC "The Ultra Secret" was published about 5 years later. That was the moment when the restrictions were relaxed - and she could tell the rest of the family where she had been during the war.

My Aunt is bitter about what happened to Alan Turing. It was wrong "of itself" and it was also wrong that this country seemed to forget exactly how much was owed Dr Turing. She regards it as a tragedy and a waste. I agree.

My late Father was one of those who fought in "The Forgotten War" in Burma. One of many horrible parts to WW2. He gained "The Burma Star". Something he wore with great pride and which recorded what he had been a part of. My Aunt will be pleased to finally have something similar.

I think that it is just to recognise the achievements of those who worked at Bletchley Park in the same way - and that it probably could and should have happened sooner - perhaps during the 1970s.

Re:Unprofessional

[99luftballon]

A fascinating piece of history, I'm glad she's getting what she deserves.

Re:Unprofessional

[Faluzeer]

"snip...And this lady is bitter that she hasn't received recognition from the British government?..."

This is the United Kingdom, this is the place where we recognise / honour people in the honours lists every year for seemingly no more reason than that they...
1. had the right parents.
2. went to the right schools and universities.
3. worked in the civil service.
4. donated money to a political party.
5. are / were a celebrity.

The Bletchley Park staff were far more deserving of honours and recognition than a lot of the people that have been honoured through the lists and yet they were ignored. The various governments since the war could have quietly honoured / recognised those people for "Services to the Nation" without going into any details of what they did, but for whatever reason, they didn't. So yes ,I can understand why some of the staff might be bitter.

Re:Unprofessional

[zildgulf]

I can understand disappointed, especially when this could have been disclosed much earlier than today (like May 1995, 50 years after VE day, or August 1995, 50 years after VJ day).

But being "bitter"??? She knew her contribution would probably be kept "secret" long after she worked on that project. She must've known that, given the British government's history, her contributions might have been kept during her lifetime.

Also, those in the know would have learned of her contributions and those of her colleagues years ago when cryptography became vital to e-commerce.

Re:Unprofessional

[Weedhopper]

Here's my question to you - did she know what she was getting involved in a classified project?

If the answer is yes, then there is no room for this. It's a sacrifice that those who become involved in secret projects have to make. If you're unwilling to make that sacrifice, then don't do it. Choose another way to contribute for which you will receive public recognition.

When I was young and stupid, I graduated with scores good enough to choose any branch of the US Army. At the time, the two most selective branches were Aviation and Military Intelligence. I chose Infantry. If I'm honest with myself, a large part of my reasoning was (for lack of a better word) glory. I'm the kind of guy who needs at least a little acknowledgment.

It's not my place to tell an old woman how she should think and feel but at the end of the day, this is a personal issue for her.

Re:Unprofessional

[99luftballon]

No, none of the participants knew until they arrived at the site. She was relatively low down on the food chain but they were (presumably) security checked, given orders of where to turn up and then told and ordered to sign the act. Apparently this was the case for the high end code breakers themselves as well.

Re:Unprofessional

[bhiestand]

Even when I figured out what he and other of his IBM colleagues had done, he simply changed the subject. And, that was over 22 years after the fact. Classified is classified and there is no shelf date.

I have to respect that and understand. It seems too few people know what it means to keep your word and keep a secret. I do have to make a technical nitpick, though: Classified does have a shelf date. IIRC, it's a 75 year commitment from the time your security clearance goes inactive or whatever else it's called. It's actually a signed legal contract with the government.

Additionally, there's a schedule for the declassification of information. More time sensitive stuff is declassified rather quickly, and other stuff remains classified for quite a long time. But I've only heard of a few instances of documents older than 75 years remaining classified.

Wait, you mean computers weren't invented at MIT?

[ehack]

Yet another case where a technology was invented in the UK, and due to secrecy the recognition and profit went elsewhere. RSA is another example.

it's the price you pay

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess I can understand being bitter about not being recognized for your work but like, it's a clandestine operation. What do you expect? You knew the job was dangerous (thankless) when you took it ... Fred.

Hate to say it but somebody has to

[Anonymous Coward]

The British government treats its people like shit. All their pols care about is their perks. Sort of like our pols.

Polish Cipher Bureau cracked Enigma

[Anonymous Coward]

Get your facts straight. At a Warsaw conference on 25 July 1939 the Polish Cipher Bureau initiated the French and British into its Enigma-breaking techniques and technology, and provided complete "bomba" cracking machines. The bomba, or bomba kryptologiczna (Polish for "bomb" or "cryptologic bomb") was a special-purpose machine designed about October 1938 by Polish Cipher Bureau cryptologist Marian Rejewski to break German Enigma-machine ciphers. Colossus used to crack Enigma at Bletchley Park was based on Bomba technology. Harry Hinsley suggested in British Intelligence that the Poles decided to share their Enigma-breaking techniques and equipment with the French and British in July 1939 because they had encountered insuperable technical difficulties. Rejewski refuted this: "No, it was not [cryptologic] difficulties [...] that prompted us to work with the British and French, but only the deteriorating political situation. If we had had no difficulties at all we would still, or even the more so, have shared our achievements with our allies as our contribution to the struggle against Germany.". It's a shame to see Bletchley Park giving almost no credit to Polish Cipher Bureau, and claiming all the credit.

Re:Polish Cipher Bureau cracked Enigma

[BadAnalogyGuy]

The Poles almost lost it all in an accident one of their submarines carrying the Bomba blueprints submerged.

Luckily, the Brits transported their important documents in submarines that did not have screendoors.

Re:Polish Cipher Bureau cracked Enigma

[Anonymous Coward]

... and certainly you have no evidence, nor reference to any historical documents to support your ridiculous claims.

Re:Polish Cipher Bureau cracked Enigma

[ralewi1]

Kind of a nasty spin you put on this story. The British don't deny Polish involvement, and TFA didn't mention the Polish because that's exactly not what this story is about. Also, using a little logic, if the British don't honor their own over concerns over secrecy, they sure won't honor Poles for similar effort. In any case, I'd leave it to the Polish government to honor their cryptologists, if they haven't done so already.

Re:Polish Cipher Bureau cracked Enigma

[BadAnalogyGuy]

Maybe this is what you're looking for.

Re:Polish Cipher Bureau cracked Enigma

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never heard of this story, but anyway it does not look credible without any reference to historical documents, nor even the name of the submarine.

Re:Polish Cipher Bureau cracked Enigma

[Bastard of Subhumani]

Hmm, you don't recognise a Polack joke when it hits you in the face with a wet haddock. Are you Irish?

Re:Polish Cipher Bureau cracked Enigma

[Anonymous Coward]

Kind of a nasty spin you put on this story. The British don't deny Polish involvement, and TFA didn't mention the Polish because that's exactly not what this story is about. Also, using a little logic, if the British don't honor their own over concerns over secrecy, they sure won't honor Poles for similar effort. In any case, I'd leave it to the Polish government to honor their cryptologists, if they haven't done so already.

Kind of a nasty spin you put on this story. The British don't deny Polish involvement, and TFA didn't mention the Polish because that's exactly not what this story is about.

Indeed. It didn't even mention Enigma, come to that.

"Get your facts straight... Colossus used to crack Enigma at Bletchley Park"

Epic FAIL there. Colossus was never used to crack Enigma, it was used on a completely different cipher.

Re:Polish Cipher Bureau cracked Enigma

[close_wait]

Well, the Colossus wasn't "based on bomba technology", and was never used to crack Engima.

Re:Polish Cipher Bureau cracked Enigma

[Yazeran]

Actually the Colossus was not used on the Enigma cipher, but instead on the Lorenz-cipher (somewhat similar to Enigma, but more complex) which was used by the german high command and the Nazi-top exclusively.

The British build copies of the polish bombes, and after the Germans changed the day-key scheme, Turing designed a new version of the bombes which was capable to deal with that (once a proper 'crib' was found, often based on German wether reports which tended to be more stereotypical)

Yours Yazeran

Plan: to go to Mars one day with a hammer.

Re:Polish Cipher Bureau cracked Enigma

[Anonymous Coward]

"Polack jokes" are, as far as I can make out, an American phenomenon. Perhaps the grandparent has not encountered them before.

Re:Polish Cipher Bureau cracked Enigma

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF? Neither summary nor TFA talk about Engima.

If it happened today...

[lewko]

These people deserve recognition just for the fact they served their country for so many years.

These days, many people would be tempted to post their activities to the web and be interviewed by the New York Times, who in turn would be thrilled to get the scoop, at the expense of national security. The enemies of freedom know how to abuse ours...

Re:Wait, you mean computers weren't invented at MI

[spire3661]

now who is bitter??

Careless Talk and all that

[Anonymous Coward]

My Father served for a time in 1942 at Bletchley Park. He wasn't involved with the 'real work' but his duties were to guard those who were.
Right up to his death in 1994, he refused point blank to talk about what went on there even though there were TV progs and even books available about the work that went on. All he would say was that 'I was stationed in Buckinghamshire and we guarded some very important people. We were told never to speak about where we were and what we were doing. He was emphatic about that. Even today people who worked there are very reluctant to talk about it.

He was the same btw about the scenes he was in 1945 when his company was one of the first into Belsen. They were forbidden to talk about it. He never did.

I only found out about both places from his diaries that were passed on to me after his death.

These people won the war

[Opportunist]

It was not your Spitfire pilots or your observer crews. It was them who broke the enigma and thus made sure the crap the US sent over arrived in one piece.

I think Churchill's speech about how so many have to thank so few fits far better here. So why no recognition for them 'til now.

Way over due, if you ask me.

Re:These people won the war

[nemsis21]

I waited all day trying to forget this comment but I can't. Sorry to be so blunt but this is an incredibly stupid statement. What earthly good is knowing your enemies plans if you can do nothing about them? In terms of the "Battle of Britain" it was only the RAF ( your Spitfire pilots and observer crews ) with a great deal of support from radar and the British command and control systems (Fighter Command) which prevented an invasion. Bletchly added very little to this particular battle and this particular battle was, arguably, the turning point in the war.

Re:These people won the war

[Opportunist]

Bletchly added the ability to make sure the critical supplies from the US arrived in one piece. Can't fight a war when your material is somewhere at the bottom of the Atlantic.

Actually, the West Europe theater of WW2 is a perfect example how much information warfare can affect the outcome of a war.

Have you been to Bletchley Park?

[fantomas]

If you go to Bletchley Park the tour guides (some of whom served there during the war) are very clear about crediting all contributions where due.

One of the places the tour stops at is the memorial to the Polish code breakers and the tour guides clearly explain the Polish connection. They have an annual Polish day at the Park - celebrated two weeks ago, photos here. Bletchley Park folks recognise the Polish contribution and make their visitors aware of this.

Re:Have you been to Bletchley Park?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well said. I've been on the tour and the gratitude to Poland is very sincere.

If they recognize you, only when they have to,

[Hurricane78]

and do nothing, when they can (like when it's a secret anyway),

then you know that they are not doing that recognition spectacle for you to be known, but for them to be known.

Documenting their experiences

[Midnight Thunder]

For those who still survive it would be cool if they could document their time and Bletchley park, and then put under seal until such time the government accepts those experiences to go public. For me, if this is not done we lose an important part of our history and insight into what happened then. I would hope that after 60 years the government would be willing to allow this information to go public.

Everyone who participates in defending our freedoms deserves recognition, but the sad thing is that when it is not an armed force we are often unaware who did their part. Even if some of these figures seem do be doing very little, the resulting actions can be very important.

Recommend a visit to Bletchley Park

[jonv]

Lots to see at Bletchley with the National Museum of computing also located there:http://www.tnmoc.org/

No, they didn't

[Weedhopper]

Not any more than any soldier who died in the mud, nor any nurse who worked in a hospital, nor any man who came back missing body parts.

Individually, they all contributed towards an Allied victory.

War is about killing the enemy and breaking his shit. This is not possible without a man out there at the tip of the spear.

Saved (Allied) lives? Contributed to a quicker victory? Ensured the continued functioning of home society? Yes, yes and yes. And more.

But "won the war?" GTFO. That's a slap in the face to any man who has ever been under fire.

Re:No, they didn't

[Opportunist]

To paraphrase a friend of mine who happens to be in the military: "War is never won at the front. Always somewhere behind."

While I don't really agree with that statement in today's warfare, it sure was true for the symmetrical wars of the past. I don't want to marginalize the efforts and hardships of the people who fought it, but very rarely they made what's often called "the difference". I can't think of a single battle in WW2 where the outcome was decided by the people fighting it.

Pearl Harbor: surprise (and igoring information).
Midway: Recon and information.
Stalingrad: Logistics and supply.
Battle of Britain: Recon (radar) and tactics.

Don't get me wrong, the people who fought the war and maybe died in it deserve our deepest respect and gratitude. But they didn't win or lose it. Who do you think contributed more to winning a fight, someone who cracks 10 tanks, or someone who cracked the code so we can easily cut their supply lines so they can't build 100 new ones?

Some reasons why Enigma failed

[crispi]

For a good read, I can recommend "The Hut Six Story : Breaking the Enigma Codes by Gordon Welchman".

Some of the reasons why Enigma Failed:

1) Choosing "sillies" for encryption keys (eg QWE, QAZ (or whatever the equivalent is on the German AZERTY keyboard).
2) Re-using keys
3) Using Cribs (eg putting some of the preamble of the message into the encrypted part)
4) Sending the same message day after day (eg "Nothing to Report"). This would compromise the key for all stations using that key:
5) Using the same key for lots of destination stations
6) Fundamental design limitation (A Letter will never encrypt to itself).
7) Enigma operator laziness (eg using the same order of wheels as the previous day). (There are 5*4*3 = 60 combinations possible).
8) More laziness - using the default Ring setting on each ring.
9) "Indicator setting" repeated - in 1 in 8 cases this would lead to a repeated encrypted key - which would give the cryptanalyst an idea of which wheels could have been used. (Fundamentally this is a kind of key distribution problem - how to get the session key established).
10) Basing a military encryption system on a commercial product.

Sixty years on, we're still making some of the same mistakes!

Re:Some reasons why Enigma failed

[expatriot]

I was at BP today (with two other nerds) and the tour gide mentioned several of these.

I was particularly interesting that one isolated post was sending the same short message every day and this was assumed to be "Nothing to report".

The surounding allied forces were instructed to not go near the isolated German so that they could get more examples of the machine sending the same message.

Re:Some reasons why Enigma failed

[ibsteve2u]

Subtract your "in hindsight" knowledge and crack Enigma..or japan's blue code.

Real secrets don't exist.

[h00manist]

If know the facts of a secret, it's disinformation - not a secret - and you are just naive. If you do NOT know the facts of a secret, they just don't exist, you are merely a paranoid, weird, insane, tinfoil hat, black helicopter, UFO nut. REAL facts are in the newspapers and television.