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Obama Photog Says "You're Both Wrong" To AP & Fairey
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "In Fairey v. Associated Press, the Associated Press said artist Shepard Fairey's painting had infringed its copyrights in a photo of then-President Elect Barack Obama. Fairey said no, it was a 'fair use'. Now, the freelance photographer who actually took the AP photo — Manuel Garcia — has sought permission to intervene in the case, saying that both the AP and Fairey are wrong. Garcia's motion (PDF) protests that he, not AP, is the owner of the copyright in the photograph, and that he never relinquished it to AP. And he argues that Fairey is not entitled to a fair use defense. According to an article in TechDirt, this intervention motion by Mr. Garcia represents a changed attitude on his part, and that his initial reaction to Mr. Fairey's painting was admiration, and a desire for an autographed litho. Maybe Mr. Fairey should have given him that autographed litho."
...Obama checking out some 17 year old girl's ass?
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Photog? Litho? You can't be bothered to type those out?
So, lets say that this isn't Obama, since the personality and timeliness of the subject appear to be clouding the issue. I'm presuming that the timliness of an image, since the copyright lasts for over a century, isn't salient (someone will doubtless correct me if I'm wrong).
Let's say this is the picture of the Hellers Bakery. Let's say it's a photo of a street flower vendor, and someone takes an anonymous photo off the net and decides to base a work of art on it. It might look like this http://www.josephcraigenglish.com/SidewalkFlowers.jpg and the artist would be required to create the hundred-plus silk screens and choose the colors to create a particular mood. How about if it were more generic? Say, a photo of the Capitol, posterized down to 8 colors with a red-white-and-blue sky?
Having seen the photo and the print for the first time today (but having hear about it previously), I'm calling bullshit on the AP and Garcia. Yes, the photograph is copyright, but the content - Obama looking up in a button down shirt and a tie - is so generic as to be reduced to almost "factual" information when translated into the poster.
I fear that the court will rule in favor or either the AP or Garcia. If they do, it will be just one more proof that the system is broken, and is stifling rather than promoting and enabling.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
,,, it would look like this:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/08/09/article-0-0237E35600000578-961_468x541.jpg
If his initial attitude changed it must have done so a while ago. I heard the artist and the photographer interviewed by Terry Gross on NPR some months ago, and the latter was quite clear that he considered his photograph to have been stolen, and also made the claim then that he thought he owned the copyright, not the AP. He was a bit peeved, and frustrated by the general attitude that people thought they could do whatever they wanted with images that they happened to find on the internet (which was where this artist found the photograph). He described the difficult, creative work and considerable preparation that went in to making the photograph, and, naturally, did not agree with the artists' view that his transformation of it was creatively significant enough to support his claim of fair use. Originally, I was sympathetic with the artist, but after hearing the photographer's point of view, I'm torn.
Personally, I would prefer the headline "Obama Photographer Says AP and Fairey Are Both Wrong" for the same number of characters.
Or drop the Obama since Garcia is not the official whitehouse photographer, which might be construed as the Obama Photographer because the whitehouse photographer mostly photographs the president in interesting places meeting interesting people.
Is it sad that I am more likely to recognize you and your posts by your sig than your name or UID?
Actually, then it'd be downright confusing -- photo says "You're both wrong"? Though "photographer" would have been much better than a made-up abbreviation. On the other hand, "photog" abbreviation has apparently been around since about 1906...
...you could find a frame in the thousands of hours of TV coverage of Obama that has his face in this approximate pose and orientation - enough from which to base the stylization of the bust, and crop out the background to the multi-colored sky and banner bottom? Would the existence of such a frame nullify this lawsuit, or create a second one allowing one of the TV networks to sue the artist as well?
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
From what I understand, their claim is pretty much completely dependent on the wording of the contract they had with the photographer. If the AP has a signed contract saying that they own the copyright of all the pictures he took for them, then their claim is valid. If they only have a contract that says they get unlimited reproduction rights (my understanding is that a typical contract is more like that), then they don't own the copyright. Until details of the contract are presented, nobody can know anything more about their case.
Nearly every photograph Ansel Adams ever took was of a "publicly owned object." Do you really think his photographs are not original work deserving of copyright?
You can't be serious about that? Clearly it does apply.
Fair use serves a crucial role in limiting the reach of what would otherwise be an intolerably expansive grant of rights to copyright owners. Were it not for the fair use doctrine, each of the following activities would be infringing:
* whistling a tune while walking down the street (public performance)
* cutting out a New Yorker cartoon and posting it on your office door (public display)
* photocopying a newspaper article for your files (reproduction)
* quoting a line from The Simpsons in an email to a coworker (reproduction)
* reverse engineering of computer code (reproduction)
* "time-shifting" a radio or television program (reproduction)
* playing an excerpt of Roy Orbison's "Pretty Woman" in a copyright law course (public performance)
* quoting from a novel in a review (reproduction)
If you ever took an art class, you know that they use such things as pictures and then ask you to create your own art from it. If this case is found guilty of copyright impingement, then art classes will be outlawed or drastically changed so that one cannot create art from a photograph.
It is not a photocopy, it is art, it is not an exact copy, it is different in a certain way as an art form goes.
If this case is valid, then artists everywhere will lose their rights and freedoms to create art just like it.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
Regarding this: "There's no way to square this with his original comments"
I do not believe Garcia is being inconsistent; I would probably have a similar reaction. I put almost all my photographs under the creative commons license, and I am very flattered when anyone considers my photographs good enough to use for anything. Still, I consider this part of the license absolutely essential: "you must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor". I took the energy to take and share my photograph with others, so I think the license I put it under should be respected.
Although I use a different license than Garcia, we both agree that putting something online should not be the equivalent of completely losing ownership/control of our art. Still, we are both flattered when people do want to use our art. These two beliefs are not mutually exclusive.
What was the contract that Garcia signed with AP? If he didn't sign anything, then AP wouldn't have any rights to use his work at all. If he signed over all his rights, AP owns the work. If he signed over certain rights to use them in newspapers and magazines, but kept all other rights for himself, then he owns the rights. Depending on the contract he used, he might have kept the right to make derivative merchandise.
Garcia's legal papers don't mention anything about the contract he signed with AP.
Are there any photographers out there? What are the provisions in the usual contract you sign with an agency like AP? Do you sell all rights? What rights do you keep?
The general rule of photography is never ever sign away the rights to the negative.(In this case, the negative/original file/ownership.) The only time a photographer should sign away those kind of rights is if they are being paid ridiculous amounts for it. There are plenty of cases I hear about such and such photographer sold the exclusive rights away for a low sum, say around $10,000, and the new owner went on to make ten times that.
If I design a can label for a soup company, do I own the label, or does the company?
If someone takes a photo of the can with 'my' label on it, who owns the copyright to the photo?
If someone paints a pop-art version of that photo, who owns the rights to it?
If someone takes a photograph of that painting, who owns the rights to it?
The only winner is the copyright lawyers for all these people.
- RG>
Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
The Internet, of course. Maybe you've heard of Vimeo, or Youtube? Plenty of pictures with voices, hell some are just still pictures with music playing!
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
I think the photographer is due something. But by the time the courts have figured out exactly what that is, the lawyers will have used up all the money.
Arbitration seems like a worthy alternative to the courts.
Since it's a famous picture of him, maybe the President could spend a few hours looking over those law books and sorting out some of this Intellectual Property mess we find ourselves in. Look at it another way, if Barack Obama can somehow be personally dragged into this vortex the way John Q. Downloader has been, maybe there finally will finally be some... Change. :)
I love it when conservatives talk about race. It's so ... racist. And the large numbers of overt racist Republicans is doing a great deal to help both Democrats and liberals.
Keep on going.
Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
Actually, it is highly relevant for many of us web geeks, due to the tangled mess that copyright and inspiration versus derivative works is. In an indirect way, this could influence things like source code, where a company sues a smaller company for copyright infringement, and then the coder who wrote the code in the first place steps in, claiming that the supposed copyright holder only licensed the code from him and didn't get full copy rights.
I personally think this case ought to go to Mr. Fairey, since his painting could have used any of a number of photographs as a reference and the work in making the painting was his. His mistake was giving the photographer credit, and then the AP thought it deserved a piece of the profits since they were the distributors.
We really did ourselves in with this election I'm afraid.
With this election!? You americans are some severely diluted people. For the past 8 years your ex president helped your nation gain one of the worst reputations in the world, and you honestly think that now you've fucked up? The next time a european (or a piece of "eurotrash" as you so elaborately call us) flips you the finger for just being american, please don't be surprised. It only makes you look even more embarassing since it merely proves your cluelessness of just what the fuck the world thinks.