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Shuttleworth's Take On GNOME 3.0, Coordination with Debian

suka writes "In a fresh interview with derStandard.at, Ubuntu founder Mark Shuttleworth talks about GNOME 3.0 — its strengths, but also about what he thinks is missing. He also mentions ongoing talks for a common meta-release-cycle with Debian which could delay the next LTS."

19 of 320 comments (clear)

  1. Pulse Audio is what I worry about by wrook · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm not worried about X breakages, personally. I even have an Intel 945G and I can live with the problems its causing. What I can't live with is the extreme instability of Pulse Audio. It crashes my apps contstantly from broken pipes. OK, people should be checking their pipes. But Pulse Audio itself crashes very frequently (about every hour or so on my machine). Rhythmbox won't go for more than 10 minutes without either crashing or audio failing. This is incredibly bad for me.

    I realize that it's probably due to older, underpowered hardware (3 year old cheap laptop), but this should not be happening. I've yanked Pulse Audio from my machine altogether now and it's a lot more stable. I was also getting lock ups in Firefox every hour or so. Now that I've dumped Pulse Audio, I've only had one lock up in the past 3 days (still can't figure that one out -- related to video drivers???).

    So, I plead with Ubuntu developers: either fix Pulse Audio, or punt it. The extra features it has is *not* worth the massive pain that some people experience.

    1. Re:Pulse Audio is what I worry about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's more problems than just pulse audio, there are too many daemons appearing in general. Stuff like gnome-pty-helper, gnome-keyring, ssh-agent, consolekit, hal-addon-storage, gconfd. All this stuff is fine on general purpose machines when the user mainly engages in browsing, multimedia, IM and office apps. The problems arise when you want to do something demanding like A/V work, with distros increasingly integrating services for the common usage case it's becoming increasingly difficult to get a usable setup on older hardware.

      A few years back, I could successfully do multitrack audio and video editing on systems that struggle just to run todays desktop environments. I'm not talking about underpowered hardware per se, I'm talking about having to strip out ever increasing amounts of bloat and replacing the wm with something sane (currently I use openbox). As for pulse audio, that's one of the first things I yank from an install in favour of jackd.

      There's also something very wrong with the intel drivers. Something to do with the in-kernel mode setting where the kernel configuration refuses to let you disable framebuffer if you've enabled DRI or AGPGart (can't remember which). I had to manually hack the .config through 7-8 recompiles just to get X up and running with these drivers. Ridiculous.

  2. Not the KDE4 way, plase by VincenzoRomano · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I only hope they will follow a different path than KDE team.
    They rushed to release 4.0 and since then I'm still struggling to have all the features I used to have in KDE v3.5.
    And, more important, I hope that Ubuntu people won't trash GNOME v2 from night to day like they did with KDE v3.5.

    --
    Maybe Computers will never be as intelligent as Humans.
    For sure they won't ever become so stupid. [VR-1988]
    1. Re:Not the KDE4 way, plase by mrtommyb · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What KDE4 proofed is that you can also sit down and have really interesting conceptual changes that get introduced as big shifts.

      What KDE4 proofed is that if you make really awful software that is full of bugs even long term fans will switch to using an alternative.

    2. Re:Not the KDE4 way, plase by Razalhague · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They release a 4.0 and are surprised people start using it? WTF?

    3. Re:Not the KDE4 way, plase by segedunum · · Score: 4, Insightful
      HTML malfunction.........

      The KDE 4.0 release was a total management cock up from start to finish...

      Hmmmm, it wasn't from KDE's perspective. It's the way things have always worked. The KDE developers set themselves some goals for KDE 4.0 and they achieved them - mainly API and ABI stability. What happened was that distributors then blindly started compiling and packaging it and then whinging when they found out that their users weren't too happy with it. Virtually all distributors are braindead when it comes to putting together a whole system and looking intelligently at the software they want to use. It's why we have PulseAudio being thrown into desktop systems today. That thing isn't stable at all, let alone feature complete.

  3. Re:The only thing I got out of TFA... by lilrobbie · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Ever watched someone who hasn't grown up on computers use files and folders? The physical notion may not be confusing, but the computer implementation definitely leaves a lot to be desired. I have had a 60minute discussion with someone about the distinction between copy & cut, and when it does and doesn't work. So yes... files & folders as used by computers can be enormously complex for those who are not accustomed to remembering large tree-maps ;-)

  4. GTK by Haiyadragon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well, GTK+ is due for an overhaul. Fix the damn file picker. Get rid of all that excessive padding, maybe by making it themeable. Some consistency in menuitem dimensions would be nice.

    Also, either give Metacity some features, at least the bare essentials, or switch to another window manager. That non-optional minimize effect is cringe worthy.

    1. Re:GTK by marcansoft · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The GTK file picker is quite possibly the worst file picker I have ever seen. Even Windows 3.1's crappy stuff was better - it might not support long filenames, but at least it didn't require one extra click in order to do anything useful.

      Seriously, "browse for other folders"? I still maintain that the genius who thought that up needs to be shot.

    2. Re:GTK by qupada · · Score: 5, Insightful
      People who modded this troll really need to stop and think about it - parent is just about spot on. The look and feel of the vast majority of GTK apps is frankly awful.

      Some consistency in menuitem dimensions would be nice.

      Now admittedly maybe this only manifests when you're using small interface fonts (I'm using 7pt here, for reference). Taking GIMP's menus as an example, menu items with images are significantly larger than ones without - a full 25% larger (20 vs 16 px). I don't have a huge number of gtk apps on my system to check this in, but inkscape and wireshark seem to have the same issue.

      Fix the damn file picker.

      This is a pet peeve of mine too. Bearing a striking resemblance to one I remember from Apple Mac systems pre colour monitors, the current design of the filepicker was in no way an improvement.
      For some reason or another the "location" text field is hidden by default (and even when shown, is oddly not populated by default with the path to the current directory). What could have been useful breadcrumb-style navigation buttons were added, except all but the one representing the current directory is hidden until you click a different button (this is despite there being the entire width of the file picker for them to fill). The lack of switchable view modes in the file listing is mystifying, it seems to display "thumbnails" of images when browsing, but it doesn't seem to be possible to make those thumbnails any bigger than 16x16px.

      That non-optional minimize effect is cringe worthy.

      Also the effect that draws big bold black rectangles on your screen to indicate the borders of hidden windows while alt-tabbing. Something regrettably KDE copied. I don't need this, if I wanted to waste my time with annoying and ultimately useless visual effects I'd install compiz.

      In reality, once it has become difficult or event impossible to make the system behave in a manner conducive to it actually being useful for anything, it's time to look elsewhere. As I often have to remind people, just because they are happy with the default settings doesn't mean everyone will be.

    3. Re:GTK by Haiyadragon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Picking a directory is tedious and unintuitive. When I just click the OK button to pick the current directory, nothing happens. I have to click an empty space in the directory, to 'select it', first. When I use the crumbtrail to navigate to a parent directory, it automatically selects the child directory I just came from. When I click OK does it pick the current directory, or the selected directory? Who knows. When I open the file picker later it always opens in the parent directory of the previously picked one. Why in the parent?

      There are many usability problems with the current file picker.

  5. Re:Don't include Gnome 3 in the next LTS by Norsefire · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Long Time Service release. They have to support it for 4 years, fixing bugs, preventing security problems etc. That would be more difficult to do if the LTS ships with Gnome 2 but Gnome 2 isn't being actively supported by its developers (who are working on Gnome 3).

  6. Re:The only thing I got out of TFA... by MrNaz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is exactly why I hated it when MS started ramming the new term "folders" down our throats. The word "directories" suited better, as it did not conjour up invalid analogies in the minds of newbies. Now instead of just having to explain what a directory is, I now have to explain what a folder is AS WELL AS how it's not like a real folder.

    --
    I hate printers.
  7. Re:The only thing I got out of TFA... by Daengbo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I've been pushing this for the last six months. I think that the best example of how to use a tagging system already exists in programs like F-Spot. A tree-like tag system goes on the left. A time-line goes on top. The files are in the main pane in reverse chronological order. Double-clicking takes the main pane into "view" mode and embeds a document, image, or video viewer. Click the "edit" button to open an editor.

    The "open file" dialog in applications would be the file browser with a filter for supported files.

  8. Re:The only thing I got out of TFA... by slim · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In meatspace:

    • a file is a container for storing paper
    • a folder is a container for storing paper

    They are almost synonymous. So someone with a non-computer background won't intuitively know which one is supposed to contain which.

    In computer lingo:

    • a file is an entity that might be analogous to a wad of paper (e.g. a word processor document), but might not (e.g. an MP3)
    • a folder is a container for zero or more files

    So it's completely unintuitive.

    I think the word 'file' has its roots from the days when a 'record' was still a fundamental concept. So a 'record' is a sheet of paper, a 'file' contains a bundle of records.

    I prefer 'directory'. At least then it doesn't push a false analogy on an already confused mind.

  9. Re:No need to be catty by fractoid · · Score: 3, Insightful

    But they don't get hierarchies, because hierarchies don't exist in nature.

    I'd have to disagree with you here. The very words we use to describe hierarchies come from nature - look at 'trunk' / 'branch' / 'leaf', 'parent' / 'child', 'master' / 'slave'. Maybe they don't instantly, intuitively get the idea when it's used as a metaphor, but that's partly vocabulary. They'll get it quickly enough if you explain to them that a 'folder' or 'directory' is a box, and a 'file' is a bit of paper that you can write on, and you can put either paper or boxes in any box.

    If they don't 'get it' when it's explained that simply, then they're below the mental cutoff for that level of abstract thought. Many people (for instance) struggle to execute a sequence of simple instructions, and cannot solve even simple logic problems. They literally don't have the mental machinery required to visualise three different entities and the relationships between them, "A is next to B and B contains C". I'm not saying they're 'idiots' or that they're worthless, they just don't have abstract thought among their strengths.

    --
    Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
  10. Re:The only thing I got out of TFA... by pizzach · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Oh noes. People are getting back to be being overly pedantic. Might as well start the "Untitled Folder" convo here. How can a folder be untitled yet have the title "Untitled Folder"? Because it is short for "Untitled Folder (by you)" you clods. Now that is out of the way...I shall hide under my rock again.

    --
    Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
  11. Re:The only thing I got out of TFA... by El_Muerte_TDS · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In computer-space we have either directories/files or folders/documents.

    MS Windows uses "Files" and "Folders". Actually, the type of a folder is "File Folder". A "document" is a subtype of "file", because a "file" can also be an "application" or "program". A "file" could also be an "archive", which contains "files" and "folders". Some "archives" are called "cabinets". And of course all these files, folders, archives, cabinets, etc. can be seen in windows. Of course to be able to see those windows you first need to use a key, to open the lock. And to add protection from outsiders to see you files, etc. we have walls of fire. All the files, folders, etc. are stored on something called "drives"... why on earth are they not called "rooms"? And I wonder where the "roof" is in all this stuff.

  12. Re:The only thing I got out of TFA... by russotto · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Sounds good. Also, I'd like to see some of the Versioning file system installed by default

    Sooner or later, everyone re-invents VMS.