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Expanding the Electricity Grid May Be a Mistake

Perhaps T. Boone Pickens was onto something. Al writes "An article in Technology Review argues that plans to string new high-voltage lines across the US to bring wind power from the midsection of the country to the coasts, could be an expensive mistake. What's needed instead are improved local and regional electricity transmission, the development of an efficient and adaptable smart grid, and the demonstration of technology such as carbon capture and sequestration, which could prove a cheaper way to reduce carbon dioxide emissions than transmitting power from North Dakota to New York City."

12 of 412 comments (clear)

  1. Problem with wind and solar? by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    All this talk about solar and wind energy being "free" and building these giant wind farms and turbines has had me wondering about something that I never see addressed. Has anyone considered the meteorological effects of removing all that energy from the atmosphere? I mean wind and solar energy serve a FUNCTION, they move our weather systems around, melt our snow, power our rivers, etc. You start taking a significant chunk of that energy out of the atmosphere, couldn't you end up with climate changes that could be even more devestating than the global warming you're trying to avoid?

    No energy is truly "free," after all. But environmentalists keep talking about wind and solar as if there's NO downside whatsoever. It seems to me that there might be a pretty big one.

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    1. Re:Problem with wind and solar? by ByTor-2112 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hopefully the drag from all those windmills will slow the earth's rotation enough to eliminate those damnable leap years.

    2. Re:Problem with wind and solar? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 5, Insightful

      All this talk about solar and wind energy being "free" and building these giant wind farms and turbines has had me wondering about something that I never see addressed.

      Yeah it's only brought up in every single /. discussion about wind power.

      You start taking a significant chunk of that energy out of the atmosphere, couldn't you end up with climate changes

      Yes but what makes you think wind power could ever take a 'significant' chunk of energy out of the atmosphere? A windmill only takes a tiny fraction of the energy out of the wind that moves through the area described by its rotation. The wind passing through that area is a tiny, tiny fraction of the atmosphere energy that passes over the windmill. You could cover the earth with wind farms, and you'd be taking a tiny, tiny fraction of the atmosphere's energy. And up to a certain, very large, point it isn't even clear we'd be removing more energy than the trees that existed before industrial logging and agriculture cut them down.

      Could it affect the climate? Yes. Is it a reason to worry? No.

      No energy is truly "free," after all. But environmentalists keep talking about wind and solar as if there's NO downside whatsoever.

      Seriously, compared to what it is replacing, it is so close to zero impact as to be indistinguishable. When every fossil fuel plant has been shut down, and when we're contemplating blanketing whole continents with wind/solar farms, that's when the impact of these technologies will be significant. Then maybe we'll have to find a better solution, but hey thanks to getting rid of all the coal plants we should have plenty of time to do so.

      I don't think any environmentalist would claim that they have literally NO impact, outside of this relative comparison where it is only hyperbole of the smallest order. Yes, wind isn't "truly free". No, that's not a reason to stop building wind farms as fast as possible, because "not free" isn't within orders of magnitude of "as costly as current power sources". This concern is so far out there that it just reeks of grasping at straws. The fact is that for today and the foreseeable future, the environmental benefit of wind farms is unequivocal and enormous.

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    3. Re:Problem with wind and solar? by Bemopolis · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You start taking a significant chunk of that energy out of the atmosphere, couldn't you end up with climate changes that could be even more devestating than the global warming you're trying to avoid?

      Yes you could. However, building the number of windmills required to satisfy all of our energy needs wouldn't make a noticeable dent in the climate AT ALL. Just to give a sense of scale, consider the following: wind power is primarily the result of solar input. At Earth distance sunlight delivers 1360 watts per (projected) square meter; that's about 10 megawatts per football field (or, if you prefer, soccer pitch.) Over the lit surface of the Earth, that's an energy input of 173,000 terawatts.

      The current energy consumption of mankind? 16.

      Note that this is just solar input (of which some percentage goes into wind power). This doesn't even touch on the potential of tapping into ocean tides, which is driven by gravitational forces. And of course the supernova remnant fuel storage device known as nuclear fission. Compared to the impact of releasing long-sequestered carbon from beneath the ground back into the atmosphere, stealing power from the wind is chicken feed.

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    4. Re:Problem with wind and solar? by compro01 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Has anyone considered the meteorological effects of removing all that energy from the atmosphere?

      Yes, and it's insignificant.

      According to the NOAA, an average hurricane releases roughly 14 Terawatt-hours of energy per day. According to the EIA, annual global electrical production comes to about 20 Terawatt-hours.

      To summarize, one single hurricane can power the entire world (with room to grow) for an entire year if captured for two days.

      Now consider how many hurricanes and typhoons there are in a year, how long they each last, and do the math. And don't forget about lesser weather phenomenon like thunderstorms (An average thunderstorm releases about 10 gigawatt-hours) and wind in general, which also release a non-trivial amount of energy.

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    5. Re:Problem with wind and solar? by markk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      People have looked at Wind right side up, upside down, back and forth and have raised issues that make anti-nuke people look sane. The problem with Wind is that it is a real threat to coal, so there is a lot of paid for flack. Especially if combined with NG and/or Nuclear with utility level Solar for peaking in the right areas. Given good distribution we know we can use wind turbines to over 30% electric power because it is being done right now in various European grids. The issue will really be capital cost and marginal cost. The scary thing for the coal folks is that there is no ongoing resource cost and as wind turbines get out of the 20 year capital payoff period they are going to be the cheapest marginal cost electricity.

      Wind Power right now is close to 3% of U.S. electrical production and doubling again in 3 or 4 years. (And that is ignoring Picken's "plan" which was partially a front to own gas and water transport rights) Over half of all new power plant license requests in 2008 were for wind power. Nobody is calling for Plains to Coast power lines except for coal companies so they can criticize them. Intermediate level regional interconnects are what most propose now and they will be another up front capital cost item that will cause greatly reduced cost in 20 years or so. The better the regional interconnects the less variable the wind power is, and the cheaper the balancing cost.

      Of course as Wind Power grows there are starting to be boondoggles and all the other BS things that go along with big time capital enterprises. Wind is the first "alternative" power that will have to deal with those issues and that is actually a sign of maturity to me. It becomes more like any other big business. We really are on the wave for wind as long as it isn't shut down by coal interests.

  2. local power - yes, carbon capture - no ? by cats-paw · · Score: 5, Informative

    I spell carbon capture "c o a l s u b s i d y".

    It's not going to work, it's just another way to subsidize coal companies, as if letting them blow the tops off of mountains wasn't enough.

    Installing renewables local to where the power is needed is, of course, a great idea.

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    Absolute statements are never true
  3. Re:There's another advantage by FooAtWFU · · Score: 5, Insightful
    That's an advantage? It sounds like a disadvantage to me. It's electricity. We don't use electricity as an end in and of itself, we use it to achieve other valuable goals. If it takes more work to get it this way, that's inefficiency, ineffectiveness, and wasteful - and a drag on every other sector of the economy that uses electricity.

    There's an old story about the Communists in China digging a dam, and an observer asks why they're using shovels instead of excavators. "To create more jobs", they say. "Oh, I thought you were building a dam. If it's jobs you want, take away their shovels and give them spoons."

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  4. The quarter wave problem by mangu · · Score: 5, Informative

    every locale has magic electricity faeries just waiting to produce low-carbon-footprint electricity

    You're absolutely right, and that's why we need either nuclear power or a large power transmission grid to lower CO2 emissions.

    The problem with the large power grid is that power is generateed at a 60 Hz frequency. This corresponds to a 5000 km wavelength. A quarter wave line has a length of 1250 km (about 780 miles for the unit-challenged).

    A quarter wavelength line has the property that a short circuit at one end appears as an open circuit at the other end and an open circuit appears at a short. This makes it very difficult to transmit 60 Hz power over a line of approximately that length, the line must be "impedance matched", by putting capacitors and/or inductors at several points along the line. Worse still, the line impedance varies with load, because when a higher current runs through the wires they heat up and, by dilation, lengthen and rest at a lower position, thereby increasing the capacitance to ground, which means those capacitors and inductors must be variable.

    One solution is to use direct current, but that's as expensive or more than matching the impedance, although the grid becomes easier to stabilize when direct current is used.

    All in all, any solution for making more electricity available is expensive. Conservation is the easiest and cheaper way to implement technically, but it seems, at least in the USA, very difficult for the people to accept.

    1. Re:The quarter wave problem by maxume · · Score: 5, Informative

      For longer lines, HVDC is probably better than AC:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC#Advantages_of_HVDC_over_AC_transmission

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    2. Re:The quarter wave problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Conservation is the easiest and cheaper way to implement technically, but it seems, at least in the USA, very difficult for the people to accept.

      There will _always_ be more people.
      There will _always_ be greater demand for resources.
      This seems very difficult for conservationists to understand.

      You were right with the nuclear argument if we can just deprogram^H^H^H^Heducate the populace about how safe it really is; at least enough to placate the NIMBY crowd.

  5. DC power line is the only economical way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Arguments against DC power lines is based on ignorance.

    Québec and Manitoba have big power lines and they save tons of money. The cost of the converters on both ends is offset by the lower cost of the power lines. DC power lines have less loss and only need 2 wires instead of three. You don't have the inductive losses in DC lines.
    When the line exceeds 1000km the savings are huge.