Open Source Languages Rumble At OSCON

blackbearnh writes "Everybody knows what the best programming language is, it's whatever one you like the most. But is there a best language overall? Or even a best language for a given purpose? This question has been debated since the first time there were two languages to choose from. The argument is still going on, of course, but maybe a little light will be shed on the issue this week at OSCON. On Wednesday night at 7PM Pacific, representatives of the 5 major open source languages (perl, PHP, Python, Java and Ruby), as arbitrarily decided by O'Reilly, will meet to debate the merits of their various languages. If you're not going to be at OSCON, you can watch it live on a webcast and pose questions or comments to the participants. The representatives are: Python: Alex Martelli, Google; Ruby: Brian Ford, Engine Yard; PHP: Laura Thomson, Mozilla; Perl: Jim Brandt, Perl Foundation; Java: Rod Johnson, SpringSource."

Comments

what does open mean?

[at10u8]

When did C lose its status as an open source language? or do we mean languages for web apps?

Re:what does open mean?

[serviscope_minor]

Maybe they meant languages where the whole stack is Open Source. All the standard software and libraries for those languages is Open Source. There is no standard C compiler, runtime, or library -- only a specification (which is not Open Source or Free) with which to build your own implementation of them.

Seriously, what the fuck?

There are multiple open source C stacks all the way from the top to the bottom. Compilers: gcc, tcc and llvm. Gnu's libc, the various libc's in BSDs. Uclibc.

The main criticism that you're levelling at C is that it actually has a published standard! None of the other languages do. They have an "official" implementation, but nothing like the rather rigorously specified ISO C standard. And if you don't like the cost of paying for it, then you can download N1124, which was the last draft of the standard just before ratification. It's completely free and very accurate.

Re:what does open mean?

[Rockoon]

I'll consider C a 'bastard child of assembly' as soon as I can reliably emit arbitrary opcodes (rotate through carry instructions, for instance) without using proprietary extensions.

The popularity of C is interresting (thank you K&R), the reason for its development is interresting (thank you AT&T), but it is not a low level language. Its a mid to high level language whos programmers incorrectly label as low level, in what I guess is some desparate attempt to make themselves feel superior.

Its low level only in terms of the abstract machine it targets, which barely touches the surface of any actual instruction sets. This abstract machine is sufficient enough to design and implement rudimentary operating systems (with proper machine-specific extensions), but that just aint low level. The low level bits *are* the machine-specific extensions, and that just aint C.

Just do it already.

[Anonymous Coward]

Back in college I was working the summer on a forest firefighting crew ("Hotshots") when one evening back at camp two
guys got into an argument over whether Stihl or Husquvarna chainsaws were best. Punches were thrown and the two had to be wrestled apart.

That's what these L1 vs L2 vs Ln arguments all remind me of. Use a for loop or a list comprehension, call free() or let the compiler do it for you,
use '{' or not, does it really matter? - your manager probably wanted the functionality implemented yesterday - just do it using the tool you know best.

Re:What is an open source language?

[hardburn]

Why were those particular languages picked?

Probably because someone competent and authoritative enough was willing to speak on the languages listed.

little indeed.

[N!NJA]

from TFS (emphasis mine):

The argument is still going on, of course, but maybe a little light will be shed on the issue this week at OSCON. On Wednesday night at 7PM Pacific, representatives of the 5 major open source languages [...]

5 geeks.... 90 minutes.... that will be a very dim light to be shed on such unanimously-agreed subject.

the title of this post is flawed

[buddyglass]

Programming languages do not have source code, and thus cannot be "open source". Unless perhaps you're referring to languages whose specifications are updated by means of some community driven process, e.g. Sun's JCP. Interpreters, virtual machines and run-time environments do have source code and can be open source. They're just not the same thing as "the programming language" itself, which is essentially just a specification.

There can be only one!

[bigsexyjoe]

I love this "Highlander" attitude towards programming. That there will be one language that is the best and I guess will defeat all the other languages. If anything there might have a been a few best languages decades ago, but as time goes on there will just be more and more languages used for different purposes. Should we also debate what's the best tool. A hammer, a screwdriver, or a wrench?

Re:There can be only one!

[PeanutButterBreath]

To be fair, the summary presents this as a debate of "the merits of their various languages", not an attempt to cast one as the "best".

Its kind of ironic that you are projecting this "Highlander" attitude that you deride.

Mod parent... uh...

[HiggsBison]

So do your part to destroy a programmers will to live, deploy a VB6 app today!

What we need is a "Scary" mod.

Re:The language of fists, knives, and guns?

[Deanalator]

It should be a requirement for all esoteric programming language developers that they provide and IDE (or IDE extension) with support for syntax highlighting and auto-complete.

Re:What is an open source language?

[alexandre_ganso]

Or because those are whose sell more books. Remember, the thing is being organized by O'Reilley.

There is no 'best' language

[Anonymous Coward]

Usability depends on how your brain works. If Perl is easier for you then so be it. If Python appeals to your tidy mind then good.

There is no best. There is only what you want to use.